Grindwalls In General

[Wolfstorm18]

Roguelikes are for psychopaths. 

[Deidaku]

Roguelikes are for psychopaths. 

what's a Roguelike?

[Wolfstorm18]

what's a Roguelike?

 

 

Well, its a kind of game that I dont think anyone with a err...'normal' mindset would play. At least this is what I think. 

 

Anyway, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike

[InritusOO]

what's a Roguelike?

Basically, everything is determined by RNG. The world you play in, the equipment you find, the enemies you face, the people you meet, etc. etc. Permadeath is usually present, and death can occur anytime between 5 seconds from starting to 5 years from starting. All RNG based.

[Cpt_Atroxium]

Every time DE has some goodies to throw at the void, in the name of RNG Gods we dishonour our fathers. We bash on and on about this one thing. The never ending stream of followers upon that one little thing. That everyone dislikes, but only! For that one reason. That one little reason they dont even are aware of. The mind unleashes fury upon the matter and you take matter into you'r own hands. Well, what can I say. Im not even mad. 

 

Deal with it, like a man or a woman. But when you have worked, trough thick and thin. The matter will no longer affect you. THAT's when the matter really gets to you... Relief of a burdon nagging on and on trough you'r mind. Relief comerad. is what you need. 

[Wolfstorm18]

Its like this: skill << balance >> RNG. 

 

If you put too much on skill, it becomes deterministic like a single player linear game. 

 

If you put too much on RNG, it becomes a kind of roguelike, even if you are using a Crytek engine for graphics. 

[Deidaku]

Well, its a kind of game that I dont think anyone with a err...'normal' mindset would play. At least this is what I think. 

 

Anyway, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike

holy balls that looks painfully annoying to play

[SmokinDevil]

I usually get what I want. The only thing that was ever frustrating to me was farming frost parts and having the part fall outside the map.

 

I'm probably just going to repeat what has already been said but there is going to be some form of RNG. But when it's the only thing and it's RNG on top of RNG? No.

 

They can try something like PSO2's Advance Quest. Each time you complete that void mission, the chance of better stuff increases. Your "luck" reset each week. You still have to grind, but if you grind hard you should be rewarded more.

[Deidaku]

I usually get what I want. The only thing that was ever frustrating to me was farming frost parts and having the part fall outside the map.

 

I'm probably just going to repeat what has already been said but there is going to be some form of RNG. But when it's the only thing and it's RNG on top of RNG? No.

 

They can try something like PSO2's Advance Quest. Each time you complete that void mission, the chance of better stuff increases. Your "luck" reset each week. You still have to grind, but if you grind hard you should be rewarded more.

It's kind alike the pseudo RNG that Psychedelicsnake suggested. Interesting

[Deidaku]

Every time DE has some goodies to throw at the void, in the name of RNG Gods we dishonour our fathers. We bash on and on about this one thing. The never ending stream of followers upon that one little thing. That everyone dislikes, but only! For that one reason. That one little reason they dont even are aware of. The mind unleashes fury upon the matter and you take matter into you'r own hands. Well, what can I say. Im not even mad. 

 

Deal with it, like a man or a woman. But when you have worked, trough thick and thin. The matter will no longer affect you. THAT's when the matter really gets to you... Relief of a burdon nagging on and on trough you'r mind. Relief comerad. is what you need. 

It's not just about me.

 

And I don't want to spend A month trying to get 1 item in 1 game. A freaking month.

 

The main problem with Warframe and it's Grindwall/RNG is the fact that the game play is hallow and repetitive. If the game play was a little more compelling it would not leave such a bad taste in your mouth.

I do not fear for the gameplay. It gets better every major update. So let's be patient

[Ritchel]

im seeing people having all sets already

 

i do believe that farming

these frames are almost like an endgame thing

 

its like a long term goal of the game like hunting for stalker set or detron and brakk.

 

ANY online game has a grindwall. 

 

there are other methods to get the prime you want.

theres trading, and prime access

 

 

(not to mention the prime part i need for rhino i bought from a reasonable prece as months came)

you do not need to stick to grinding.

 

you can wait for the price to go down.

 

dont force and stress yourself too much on this game. chill relax do something else, these are the long term goals of the game as i believe, its has just been the third day after the release right?

 

the rarer the thing is, most rewarding it will become

Edited June 13, 2014 by Ritchel

[Drlathe]

Yes grindwalls are expected the fact is this game is number one, nothing but grindwalls. But when we complain about grindwalls oh yes De says they understand that it needs to be looked at but the first thing they do everytime is increase the grindwalls.

[Husbandry]

Token system. TOKEN SYSTEM! How many ways do we have to repeat ourselves?

 

It does not have be all one currency...it can be divided into tiers too....

I sure hope they drop like delta bacons.

 

:v

[Xoxx]

Token system. TOKEN SYSTEM! How many ways do we have to repeat ourselves?

 

It does not have be all one currency...it can be divided into tiers too....

Imagine that tokens are rare, on level of Tranquil Cleave without four Nekros' and that you need 11000 tokens for one Prime part. I'm for token system, but that'll make game more fluid, not just another excuse for RNGwall of grind.

[Joyfulmama]

Yea. Some things are just way too hard to get

[Tekky]

If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of this. I'll use the Void as an example.

 

With the Pure RNG we have right now, you get what you get. It is completely random.

 

With what I read (again, if I remember correctly), Void Drops will become more likely to drop the more you don't get it. So if you are looking for, say, a Braton Prime Receiver but all you ever get is a Burston Prime BP, the more you don't get what you are looking for the more likely you are to get it. Basically, the more unlucky you get, the higher your chances of eventually getting what you want. It increases the chance of finding what you are grinding for but also reducing the grind, but not enough to trivialize it.

 

This is the way critting works in some games these days, league of legends included. Weighted probability systems are better for consistency overall, and I'm surprised it hasn't worked like this up until now anyway. Definitely a good plan.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to add that there isn't any reason that grinding has to feel like an incessant waste of time. Honestly, I'd like to see a change in the forging system to make playing endless-style missions a bit less boring. I mean, borderlands does this by throwing an unbelievable amount of firearms at you for doing very little, and even WoW does this by promising you better gear. In the case of warframe right now, the entire equipment system is a little outdated, and you end up feeling like you're grinding for the sake of grinding.

 

I mean honestly, I finished my top-end loadout a long time ago. Every weapon mod I use is maxed, every weapon I bother to take with me into a high level game is multi-forma'd and completely overpowered. The root of the problem is an issue with the system as a whole, because once you're at the point where you're getting prime weaponry, you've already finished those of (generally) near-equivalent power (with obvious exceptions), and you're RNGing so that you can max something to either change the way your gear looks or pump up your mastery level. I don't really have a solution to the problem, but I'd like to see some suggestions to take the edge off of endgame grinding.

 

The game works correctly once you've gotten rid of your initial weapons, but falls off quite a bit once you've run out of things to do. The obvious solution would be to introduce a competitive side to matters, but that starts discussing PvP or leaderboard-based content, which relies on a SERIOUS overhaul of the arsenal. We all know that it would degenerate into optimal builds that abused one or two mechanics, but perhaps that'd be needed to initiate a change overall. I'm not saying the game isn't fun in it's current form, when it works correctly, but this is the sort of thing that ends up boring people, and introduces a need for the RNG system in the first place (since people need to be able to get the new gear, but also need to be prevented from getting it too quickly).

Edited June 13, 2014 by Tekky

[DoomFruit]

Every time DE has some goodies to throw at the void, in the name of RNG Gods we dishonour our fathers. We bash on and on about this one thing. The never ending stream of followers upon that one little thing. That everyone dislikes, but only! For that one reason. That one little reason they dont even are aware of. The mind unleashes fury upon the matter and you take matter into you'r own hands. Well, what can I say. Im not even mad. 

 

Deal with it, like a man or a woman. But when you have worked, trough thick and thin. The matter will no longer affect you. THAT's when the matter really gets to you... Relief of a burdon nagging on and on trough you'r mind. Relief comerad. is what you need. 

I intend to deal with it by just leaving Warframe entirely. I've had enough of multi-layered RNG and very uneven drop probabilities. Maybe I'll give Smite a try...

[Deidaku]

I intend to deal with it by just leaving Warframe entirely. I've had enough of multi-layered RNG and very uneven drop probabilities. Maybe I'll give Smite a try...

See that's the problem. I'm even considering it if the next update brings something worse

[Hammithimmis]

I agree that RNG is a big problem, but not the MAIN one.  I think there’s two reasons why DE has shown no real interest in removing RNG:

 

1. RNG is a statistically sound way to increase the amount of time (or “walls”) needed to “finish” this game.  With the gameplay flaws Warframe has, DE needs this in order to keep its players from quitting.  As seen by the continual protest on the forums about RNG, this tactic works to some extent. 

 

2. RNG serves DE’s purposes better than any guaranteed item progression grinding that seems to be favored by many veterans on the forums.  Why?  RNG is great IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WF EXPERIENCE.  I’ll always remember getting the Dread Bp as my first drop in the game as something special.  As a beginner, most players don’t bother to know (or more importantly, really care) about the item drop system, because everything they get is new! and awesome! (and getting a rare item thanks to RNG even more amazing).  In addition, the initial beauty of the gameplay is enough to override any initial grind feeling they get.  As a beginner, RNG is wonderful, and certainly more appealing than visible progression grinding.   

 

It’s only later on, as you realize how repetitive the gameplay can be, and as you try collecting the weapon parts needed to “finish” the game, that RNG begins to appear more and more terrible.  Add in a couple outliers (horror stories farming for Brakk, Detron, etc), and you get the outcry from the veterans on the forums sick of RNG.  By this time, the veterans are willing to trade RNG grinding for progression grinding, because they’ve already been hooked into the game by RNG. 

 

My solution?  Either fix the gameplay flaws (har har har), or have some sort of RNG/ progression hybrid (RNG for early-game, guaranteed progression grinding for late-game).

Edited June 13, 2014 by Hammithimmis

[Dalu__Ka]

Grind is good n all...

But playing the same dang missions over and over and over isn't.

[Wolfstorm18]

I agree that RNG is a big problem, but not the MAIN one. 

 

Yes, thats true. The main problem is restricted NAT, its players being disconnected after 5 waves of defense and not be able to return anymore. Its the host being alone after wave 30 or 30 minutes of survival, even with a good connection and no lag for the other players. This is the main problem. 

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

holy balls that looks painfully annoying to play

 

I suppose due to me being one who's bashed my skull repeatedly against Roguelikes I'm not always super bothered by the RNG.

 

Doesn't mean that even someone as deranged as me can't see that it's getting too bloated however.  Grindwalls are of course a sort of necessity, but having such a pure RNG does honestly remove the feeling of reward when you think about it.  You didn't finally acquire X because you are skilled, you got it because the dice allowed you to.  Oxium is an example of a mostly good grindwall, Argon is an example of a mostly bad one.

 

We definitely need some sort of shift to a pseudo RNG system (some have been mentioned already) that either rewards dedication or skill somehow.  The downside here is that such a system would need to cause our drops to be individualized, and that's not really a downside.

 

Edited because I typed Zephyr where I should've typed Oxium.

Edited June 13, 2014 by (PS4)Bobtm0

[Tymerc]

Am I the only one not bothered by RNG or grinding? Grinding exists in almost every game nowadays in one form or another.

[Hammithimmis]

Am I the only one not bothered by RNG or grinding? Grinding exists in almost every game nowadays in one form or another.

 

Not bothered is quite vague.  Are you resigned to it, joyful, accepting, indifferent, numb, etc?  I'm kind of numbed by it, to be honest.

[Tymerc]

Not bothered is quite vague.  Are you resigned to it, joyful, accepting, indifferent, numb, etc?  I'm kind of numbed by it, to be honest.

It doesn't bother me because I don't have anything better to do with my life. I'm a loser living with my parents who has nothing to look forward to. I game almost daily to take my mind off all of my stress and whatnot. That's why it doesn't bother me.