How Loki Should Be: My Thoughts.

[Azawarau]

oh yes there is, maxed cloak build=small Radial Disarm (6.8m radius), and Decoy is usefull if used correctly but full duration means a maximum range of 25.5m

 

 

 

at the moment I'm at +80% range, +60% efficiency, +50% duration and -60% damage,+ maxed redirection, all of the abilities and 11 mod points to spare

 

and any radial disarm damage that is lost is to small to count

I run a high enough duration that invisibility can be sustained rather easily and i still cover near every room with radial

 

Min maxing is not a good thing to do all the time in WF

Edited June 22, 2014 by Azawarau

[YashiroSora]

In regards to invisibility, i feel you are 'breaking' the ability, with not enough structure around it. Since i've been playing around with invisibility in other games, i'll take your idea one step further. Another forum thread we go...

Edited June 22, 2014 by YashiroSora

[(PSN)HanTao02]

Again... "Lets make Loki's only damage boosting ability completely worthless for damage." I don't care if it kills that target so hard his parents die, its a single target damage ability in a game where single target damage abilities are worthless. 

 

There is no issue with invisibility really, the issue is with warframes lemming AI. There are so many better ways to solve the "issue" of perma invis. New enemy types that specifically look for invisible players and attach markers to them giving enemies a general vicinity to fire at until you roll knocking it off. Ive posted plenty more in other such threads looking to fix what isn't broken. 

yes

[(PSN)HanTao02]

no, to the invisibility idea, yes...god yes to the radial disarm buff

[(PSN)HanTao02]

I like your Radial Disarm suggestion. Giving it a little damage wouldn't hurt. 

 

About the Invisibility however, I feel that that mechanic would be more suited to ash's smokebomb, as Loki's seems more of a cloak, and would be better as a toggled ability. 

please don't suggest they destroy ash in any way lol

[RealPandemonium]

oh yes there is, maxed cloak build=small Radial Disarm (6.8m radius), and Decoy is usefull if used correctly but full duration means a maximum range of 25.5m

 

 

 

at the moment I'm at +80% range, +60% efficiency, +50% duration and -60% damage,+ maxed redirection, all of the abilities and 11 mod points to spare

 

and any radial disarm damage that is lost is to small to count

Use Stretch and and a partially leveled Narrow Minded instead of a maxed one.  Radial Disarm has a 25m base range so you have some wiggle room.

[Sasquatchias]

I feel that Invisibility is too spam-able for what it does, and actually does need a nerf to balance it out.

 

While improvements in enemy A.I. could possibly balance it out, I would rather them tweak the ability itself and afterwords tweak the A.I. to ensure better balance.

 

Personally I like the suggestion of making him flicker/turn briefly visible while attacking, as it doesn't destroy the ability nor does it give temporary god-mode.

[LukeAura]

Personally I like the suggestion of making him flicker/turn briefly visible while attacking, as it doesn't destroy the ability nor does it give temporary god-mode.

Except it never gives temporary god mode as it is, and the flicker ability becomes almost redundant if you make the enemy Ai intelligent. 

 

[Sasquatchias]

Except it never gives temporary god mode as it is, and the flicker ability becomes almost redundant if you make the enemy Ai intelligent. 

 

I would think enemies completely ignoring you and dealing four times as much damage would count as god mode, especially when you factor in duration mods that extend it 30 seconds.

[LukeAura]

I would think enemies completely ignoring you and dealing four times as much damage would count as god mode, especially when you factor in duration mods that extend it 30 seconds.

If enemies could have some ability to track a Loki then this would not only mean they could shoot and damage him, which already discounts god mode claims, but this would make at least the portion who are aggro'd to him lose that damage bonus Loki has on them, the damage bonus also only applies to melee damage. 

It could be entirely balanced by an AI update which should happen any ways. I hardly see the point in suggesting changes before the AI change happens first. 

 

[TwiceDead]

I like the idea for invisibility and Radial Disarm, indifferent about Decoy and ST. 

 

Invisibility would become almost completely similar to the cloak in Mass Effect with this change, and I like the idea of using a sniper-rifle from cloak dealing 4x the normal damage. Would be awesome. 

Radial Disarm would be a bit too powerful with that addition though... 

 

 

About the Invisibility however, I feel that that mechanic would be more suited to ash's smokebomb, as Loki's seems more of a cloak, and would be better as a toggled ability. 

Actually I don't think it would. 

 

Think about this for a second. 

Smoke-bomb is obviously supposed to be used in a close proximity to the target due to it's initial stunning effect (smokebomb), so him retaining his constant invisibility and his melee damage multiplier would make perfect sense.

With this suggestion to Loki's invisibility, he wouldn't be able to sustain the amount of death he could deal with melee weapons as Ash could, but he could deal an insane amount of burst-death with the 4x-mutliplier on everything weapon in his arsenal, with the down-side that his cloak will run out 1-2 seconds after the attack is made. 

 

This would also help set the two apart in terms of playstyle, where Ash is the close-and-personal cut-throat, and Loki is the bushwacker dealing death from unexpected angle's and ranges, adding to his description as the trickster-frame. 

 

I could see that invisibility suggestion for Loki being insanely OP if combined with something like the Penta or Ogris though... It'd almost be like a moderately filled AMD. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Bankworthy]

I agree with all points bar invisibility, the problem doesn't lie in the fact that you can perma stealth endlessly, it's that it is literally impossible for the enemies to deal with cloaked players.
Invisibility doesn't need a rework, enemy A.I needs improvement.
Instead of mindlessly standing there watching their comrades being chopped to pieces methodically one by one, perhaps they could run or start spraying at where the carnage is originating from.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Bankworthy

[S7ORM]

Invisibility should not be a one-hit thing.
That's awful. Taking away a Loki's main source of damage. Putting him in more danger than is 400 shields can handle...

Switch Teleport should not be a tag on first tap, teleport on second tap ability.
What if I decided I want to change my target? Also, that makes it less useful for quick movement -- If I'm running or falling, I don't want to tag a target, black screen and teleport back to the ground, then teleport to my target.

 

Radial Disarm should not do damage. Loki has no direct damage powers, and SHOULD not have any.
Edit: Except against infested, which really doesn't make sense. They should just remove that part...

Edited June 23, 2014 by S7ORM

[Ace4225]

Switch Teleport should not be a tag on first tap, teleport on second tap ability... that makes it less useful for quick movement -- If I'm running or falling, I don't want to tag a target, black screen and teleport back to the ground, then teleport to my target.

Then tag something before falling (that's the beauty of it.)

Also, I've never seen ANYONE use Switch Teleport as a twitch-reaction to falling.

[S7ORM]

Then tag something before falling (that's the beauty of it.)

Also, I've never seen ANYONE use Switch Teleport as a twitch-reaction to falling.

But alas, you don't see loki anyways!

srsly though, I jump off edges and switch tele in midair all the time (sometimes to piss my teamates off by making Rhino lose his iron skin...).

[Kuva_Kebab]

All this whining about invisibility being spammable.

 

I'm surprised nobody has seen the compromise between two extremes: "Give it a cooldown." Perhaps about 50% of his invisibility's duration? So building for full invisibility duration can have a downside.

What's that? You never thought of something so simple? Of course you didn't, simple solutions work the best, and are often ignored!

 

While this will annoy some, it will appease others, if you don't want it to be a spammable ability, then ask for a cooldown, not a freaking re-work to the entire ability. It's fine as it is.

 

Edit: The reason a cooldown would appease both sides is that Loki's invisibility is still good and the way it should be (unique), but as it reaches the end of its duration, Loki players will have to locate a place to hide from incoming fire so they can make their getaway.

Edited June 24, 2014 by LunarSatan

[LukeAura]

Edit: The reason a cooldown would appease both sides is that Loki's invisibility is still good and the way it should be (unique), but as it reaches the end of its duration, Loki players will have to locate a place to hide from incoming fire so they can make their getaway.

Loki players already do that actually already. Kind of comes with being a squishy frame.  

And the reasons no one suggest cooldowns any more is that DE didn't like cooldowns early on in the game, and they created bad gameplay behaviour in players, and are probably rather hesitant to use them again.  

If the decision is made it needs nerfing even with Ai improvements, I'd probably recommend just making its duration inversely proportional to the number of enemies that are currently aggro'd and within LoS to Loki. Which means it's a preparatory skill only, and can't be used continuously in the middle of a heavy combat situation where Loki should not be. This would also help differentiate his invisbility from Ash's which is meant to be used in the middle of a battle.   

Although then I'd recommend his trickstery nature be bolstered in Decoy and Switch Teleport. Throw in some radiation procs or other debilitations/ aggro manipulations. 

[Azawarau]

Loki players already do that actually already. Kind of comes with being a squishy frame.  

And the reasons no one suggest cooldowns any more is that DE didn't like cooldowns early on in the game, and they created bad gameplay behaviour in players, and are probably rather hesitant to use them again.  

If the decision is made it needs nerfing even with Ai improvements, I'd probably recommend just making its duration inversely proportional to the number of enemies that are currently aggro'd and within LoS to Loki. Which means it's a preparatory skill only, and can't be used continuously in the middle of a heavy combat situation where Loki should not be. This would also help differentiate his invisbility from Ash's which is meant to be used in the middle of a battle.   

Although then I'd recommend his trickstery nature be bolstered in Decoy and Switch Teleport. Throw in some radiation procs or other debilitations/ aggro manipulations. 

Natural talent means you dont really have to hide...

[Balduron04]

Hey guys, how about a change like this?

 

Invisibility: for 15 seconds Loki goes invisible and gains 2x damage to enemy weakspots and the ability to stealth kill even alerted enemies for 2x the normal stealth kill damage.

 

- This change is to emphasize his surprise factor to be able to do more damage to enemies. its not a 4x damage to melee because that seems too good. It emphasises skill, and lets you use your assassin and trickster abilities to the full.

 

2nd Change:

Attacks that connect with the enemy will cause Loki to flicker. The more attacks he does in succession, the longer he will be in his flickering state. If he attacks while flickering, invisibility will break and need to be re-cast.

 

- This change is to discourage going invisible and ramboing through an entire level. Cloaking and unloading with a gorgon and not alerting anyone seems OP, and while this could be solved with enemy AI, it is not currently being solved that way, and this is my proposed solution.

 

It would allow for burst fire, an execute, or a quick series of slashes. Accurate and controlled bursts wouldn't break Invisibility, they would only cause the "flicker" status. If you attacked again during the "flicker" status, the ability would end and have to be re-cast. Continual fire or continual melee would cause you to "flicker", and then become visible. With Invisibility like this, it encourages tactical play while discouraging the abuse of what people currently do with the loki. I think it fits his trickster spirit while not being as open to abuse as the current power is.

 

It would also be a neat visual effect similar to the stalker's entry when you kill everyone surrounding a poor grineer lancer and then come for him last. BONUS!

[Ace4225]

All this whining about invisibility being spammable.

 

I'm surprised nobody has seen the compromise between two extremes: "Give it a cooldown." Perhaps about 50% of his invisibility's duration? So building for full invisibility duration can have a downside.

What's that? You never thought of something so simple? Of course you didn't, simple solutions work the best, and are often ignored!

 

While this will annoy some, it will appease others, if you don't want it to be a spammable ability, then ask for a cooldown, not a freaking re-work to the entire ability. It's fine as it is.

 

Edit: The reason a cooldown would appease both sides is that Loki's invisibility is still good and the way it should be (unique), but as it reaches the end of its duration, Loki players will have to locate a place to hide from incoming fire so they can make their getaway.

While this is a nice suggestion, you didn't have to insult our intelligence. :P

Also, I thought of this. But I think DE wants to avoid putting cooldowns on powers because they already have the energy cost mechanic. (Also, the powers used to have cooldowns in early closed beta, and the energy system was introduced to replace it.)

[Ace4225]

Although then I'd recommend his trickstery nature be bolstered in Decoy and Switch Teleport. Throw in some radiation procs or other debilitations/ aggro manipulations. 

Make the Decoy's shots deal Radiation effects to enemies with 100% status chance? :D

[Ace4225]

I could see that invisibility suggestion for Loki being insanely OP if combined with something like the Penta or Ogris though... It'd almost be like a moderately filled AMD. 

It's ok. You can already do this by shooting them into Nova's Antimatter Drop. :D

[Starender]

[Ace4225]

have you given the subject any thought at all, or were you just like "Oh crap, a thread talking about nerfing my favorite OP power! Better disagree in case the devs are watching..."?

Edited June 24, 2014 by Ace4225

[RealPandemonium]

have you given the subject any thought at all, or were you just like "Oh crap, a thread talking about nerfing my favorite OP power! Better disagree in case the devs are watching..."?

There was a thread similar to this one a while back and this meme was popular in that thread, so he brought it back.