Why High Tier Weapons Should Not Be Nerfed

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Why doesn't anybody look at the whole picture?

 

A MR2 player is unlikely to have the keys or powered up weapons necessary to actually acquire the parts for the boltor prime. I don't think it needs a higher mastery rank (though I find that change inoffensive) or a nerf. The gate is not a mastery grind, it's the level of difficulty in the missions for the parts.

 

Unless you think you're going to see a team of MR2 players breezing through T3 mobile defense farming runs, I doubt most experienced players are going to be dragging an excalibur with a braton through those missions.

[Fire_Ashes]

The majority is only looking at the PvE factor of our current weapons.

If Dark Sector PvP gets implemented in U14, it goes without saying that a lot of our old favorites will be getting reworked in a need to balance them out.

But in turn, our PvE experience will also get affected.

Dark sector is different. There needs to be more balncing here but it will never be perfect. Also in warframe I am only PvE.

[GravesTheOutlaw]

A MR2 player is unlikely to have the keys or powered up weapons necessary to actually acquire the parts for the boltor prime. I don't think it needs a higher mastery rank (though I find that change inoffensive) or a nerf. The gate is not a mastery grind, it's the level of difficulty in the missions for the parts.

There is no gate when you can buy 75 plat from the market and buy a Boltor Prime set from the trade chat for 40 plat or less.  I admit this is more of a personal choice, but is it a choice that DE should allow?

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

There is no gate when you can buy 75 plat from the market and buy a Boltor Prime set from the trade chat for 40 plat or less.  I admit this is more of a personal choice, but is it a choice that DE should allow?

 

You can't balance against people buying their way through the game, especially in one that survives on the income of people doing so. They can just buy it, they could have just purchased prime access too. It's not something I approve of, but it's the nature of the beast.

 

If the price of allowing a lower leveled team that fights tooth and nail through a harder mission have their prize is letting a few scrubs buy it in trading, I'm okay with that. The people that buy it will soon realize that nobody is impressed that they have it while the ones that worked for it get the satisfaction of having earned it.

[RealPandemonium]

Weapon damage as a whole needs to be toned down significantly.  Infinite content "endgame" only exists because of power creep oversight. 

[genclaymore]

and if i dont use the penta some one else will stealing all of my kills removing any fun from my game.

You do realize that the exp is shared as long your are near them right as this is a co-op game which goes around playing with others every one get exp no matter who kill what, them killing what you shooting does not hurt you at all in fact it helps you.  This not some other game where you get nothing if some one kills something your attacking.

Edited July 3, 2014 by genclaymore

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

You don't need 30k dps when 7000 is enough for tier 3 void.

[piece5]

Am I the only one that thinks weapons are in a goo place right now? Outside of locking guns to certain mastery ranks, I think the weapon system is great. I love my penta, soma, and dread. Actually, I love all the weaps I've played with, except seer and dragoon. I don't think the balance is out I whack, I love it. My guns are powerful, their guns are powerful. Especially in t4. Forever alone I guess.

[Fire_Ashes]

Am I the only one that thinks weapons are in a goo place right now? Outside of locking guns to certain mastery ranks, I think the weapon system is great. I love my penta, soma, and dread. Actually, I love all the weaps I've played with, except seer and dragoon. I don't think the balance is out I whack, I love it. My guns are powerful, their guns are powerful. Especially in t4. Forever alone I guess.

Common sense.... you have it my friend. You get a giant thumbs up!

[SIDESTRE4M]

Arguing about "he stole my kills" is irrelevant, whoever gets the most does not matter whatsoever because everybody gets the exp for it. This is a PVE, co-op game, so any balancings for the gigantic fail that is PVP will happen outside of PVE (unless DE really wants 10k threads an hour about it)

I hate this argument, because affinity is not everything. Playing the game is everything.

 

In Warframe right now we have a lot of go-to wapons. These include Brakk, Angstrum, Boltor Prime, Soma, Penta Etc.

 

What I have been seeing is so many people yelling for nerfs, what they don't realize is that Warframe NEEDS high tier weapons.

 

People have a choice to use these weapons are not, personally I will take my Burston Prime anywhere but I don't yell to nerf a boltor prime that just cleared out a room 3x faster than I could.

 

Endgame content needs high tier weapons with high DPS and these weapons deliver. Bringing them down only means that this content is THAT much harder for the rest. Think of the casuals who get these weapons so they can get to a 1/2 hour in t4 surv before they log off.

 

Do they need tweaks? Yes. Do they need downright NERFS? no.

 

There is only one major tweak that I would like to see with these weapons and that would be the Magical mastery rank.

Right now any Mastery Rank 2 can get a Boltor Prime (Last I checked)

 

DE said that they want more powerful weapons to be higher Mastery ranks and I hope this weapon gets the memo soon.

 

But entirely with the  High tier weapons please stop calling for nerfs. They DON'T need them! Use what you like and if someone wants to use a BoltorPrime let them. They usually earn it by themselves grinding for hours at a time. It is also a reward system you would be nerfing because then people won't go after that weapon also.

 

I am short on time so I am sorry I cannot add many more details but I hope this gets through some peoples heads. Please if you have anything to add please post it in the comments below.

 

Thanks,

-Crimson

 

What exactly is this "Endgame"? You mean bulletsponges scaling to infinity? Is it one hour survival? Two hours? Does that even matter?

Really, guys. This endgame is just in your mind. If weapons get toned down, you can maybe go to one hour instead of one hour and 15 minutes.

 

Dude its a co-op game, not a competitive game. If you think your kills are being taken, then you should go play solo and get as many kills as you can if thats what makes you happy. The other option would be to create your own private lobby and invite like-minded people who won't use penta or ogris. Just because you think you are entitled to get more kills each game doesn't justify asking for a nerf and ruining the game for others who want to play the game exploding rockets and barrels.

So what if it's a co-op game? Affinity is everything? It's not.

 

---------

 

If someone wonders, I'm nearly rank 15 (not yet) and T4 and stuff... been there, done that.

I play most of the time private, so other players only see me ranking up guns or doing invasions(which isn't necessary anymore).

What I am bored of the most now is this *@##$ing about endgame and people justifying everything with "b-b-but you get the xp".

 

To make things clearer: At a certain point in T4 survival it's just like this:

Enemies do so much damage, that it's irrelevant if you fight them or their variants a few levels higher. You use the same tactic.

So all those weapons do is enabling people to hold out longer.

 

If weapons starting to become less powerfull, people won't hold out longer, but it makes no difference in the difficulty they reached.

So this endgame is an illusion made up by number fanatics. Nothing else.

 

So "should" weapons get toned down? I'm, not sure. I'm not sure if I even care or not.

Boltor Prime only feels powerfull, when you nail groups of enemies to the wall, not when a single bullet doesn't kill anymore.

Edited July 4, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[RealPandemonium]

Nothing wrong with having 30k dps.

How do you reach 30k dps without using Multishot mods? :P

[SIDESTRE4M]

And leave people with nothing to do. There is no real or valid reason to nerf dps.

 

Which part of infitity did you not understand. You won't have more or less to do either way.

 

I'm not pro nerf. In fact if they did, nothing would really change. Maybe people would reach wave 45 instead of 55... couldn't care less about that.

[SIDESTRE4M]

What? I don't dictate. This is just irrational and I said, I'm not pro nerf. So what do you want from me?

[Fire_Ashes]

What? I don't dictate. This is just irrational and I said, I'm not pro nerf. So what do you want from me?

Please leave this topic alone now, you aren't leaving anything constructive.

[RealPandemonium]

Please leave this topic alone now, you conraren't leaving anything constructive.

Yeah, he isn't contributing to your agenda :p

[PeripheralVisionary]

Well said.

Though I oppose linear progression, i.e. DE keeps releasing harder and harder content and harder hitting guns. I prefer a cap.

[Azawarau]

My most used weapon is the Ogris and i love it to death but the thing needs a nerf

 

Im not against tiered weapons ut that thing takes it way over the top. Literally years too strong

 

The Penta is much the same

 

Other than those two the rest are fine i think

[Zeitzbach]

High-tier needs a power scale fix. Just because it's 2 ranks higher doesn't mean it should make me feel like uttercrap because I wanted to use a Drakgoon over a Penta.

 

Shoot a drakgoon and see stuffs run around for awhile.

 

Shoot a Penta and laugh at its only flaw being "You can hurt yourself with it"

 

What we need is an ability to "rank up" a weapon so that it's as strong as the high-tier weapons using forma where the stat is added by a certain amount each time. The amount of time you can rank up a weapon is limited by your Mastery level. This way, you can have weapon with fun mechanic (like Drakgoon spray or charge) that is decent enough to compete with boar assuming you forma upgraded it at least 4 time from rank 4 to 8. (Higher rank force people to grind so using prime gear is still the easier option with same outcome)

Edited July 4, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[SIDESTRE4M]

Please leave this topic alone now, you aren't leaving anything constructive.

 

I bet, you did just read that one line or didn't get my point,... or just had another opinion.

(And by the way I didn't read any constructive answer from you regarding my inital post, so...)

[shepshifter]

The thing about this is that some (not all) people who have these bolotor primes, somas, etc etc is that they have a tendancy to bring their high tier weapon to low level missions where they are far to overpowered and ruin the fun for others. There really isn't much that can be done about this though so it will likely stay this way.

[Arabaxus]

The reason why I don't think we ought to be nerfing the "top tier" weapons, and rather we should be increasing the mastery rank requirements for things such as Boltor Prime is this.

 

1. Progression: Warframe is a game about linear progression. The main reason the system of Mastery Rank works so well is that, unlike other games, where you can farm the name NPCs with the same gear and theoretically slowly work your way up, regardless of how arduous it is, is that you are forced outside of just using what you feel comfortable with. Let's theoretically take a Mastery Rank 2, who purchased platinum and bought a Boltor Prime set through the trading chat. He may feel comfortable using that, and hosing everything down is a joke, but even so, he will be forced to use, rank and level other things if he ever wishes to escape from Mastery Rank 2. Therefore, the clear way to fix even this problem, is to fix the Prime Weapons and their Mastery Rank Requirements. Back to the topic of linear progression, if we analyze the progression in this game on a simplified level, the objective of this game is to upgrade your gear and be able to take on higher and higher level enemies. Therefore, it is only natural that there exist tiers of weapons, some of which are clearly better than others. Therefore, it is also only natural that access of the higher tier weapons should be restricted to those players who are of higher rank, who have experienced enough of the other weapons to decide for themselves whether or not they want to play with the higher tier weapons. This is the synergy between Warframe's Mastery Rank system and its traditional linear progression system.

 

2. Rarity: Even back to the basics of any MMORPG where you face hordes of NPCs with higher and higher levels and numbers to arbitrate progression through the inclusion of larger and larger numbers, the scarcity, and therefore rarity, of specific pieces of gear have always shown a general trend towards the scarcer something is, the more powerful it is, and with the combination of these two aspects, the more desirable the said piece of gear is. Yes, power-creep is a thing, and I am not here to invalidate that, but what I am saying is if we are to redo weapons, we have to take into account the scarcity of the gear itself. It is this principle that allows me to believe that Lex Prime is grossly underpowered because the Marelok is much, much more common in the fact that it takes no farming whatsoever, requiring only that one joins a clan, gets a blueprint and gets the materials, which in comparison to the Lex Prime requiring three individual components and 10 "rare" resources (Orokin Cells), and how Forma Blueprints, the main cost of constructing the Marelok, is readily accessible in many places where Lex Prime components are each restricted to certain towers, while allowing me to feel that allowing the Boltor Prime to be as powerful as it is because it requires four components each in different towers, along with the Blueprint being rather scarce, along with the resource requirement of 10 Orokin Cells. People may complain about how Boltor Prime grossly outshines Braton and Burston Prime and such, but in my experience, actively playing a large variety of Void missions have allowed me to gather entire Braton and Burston Prime sets inadvertently, while the same cannot be said for the Boltor Prime, which I had to have set as a goal in mind to farm for. When it boils down to the basics, the stronger it is, the rarer it should be. And I believe Boltor Prime's relative rarity in comparison to Braton and Burston justifies its greater power.

 

3. Endgame: This abstract concept of an endgame, measured generally by one's ability to survive some duration of time in a Tower 4 Survival or some number of waves in Tower 4 Defense is a touchy subject for some, so saying "what's the difference between 45 and 55 waves/minutes" isn't a valid argument. As arbitrary it seems to many, to others it is their measure of progression and skill, and whether or not they are the majority or minority, the rest of us have in no way any right to take these feelings away from them. However, do keep in mind that the definition of "endgame" has shifted many times during the lifespan of Warframe, from the last mission nodes to the introduction of Void to the more recent introduction of Tower 4. We may complain that weapons may be overpowered, but overpowered is in the eye of the beholder. If I were to define my "endgame" as the end of the mission nodes, then the relative ease that many prime weapons and even things such as the the Dakra Prime, even without Crimson Dervish, will easily slash through all the enemies given a relatively competent mod set may allow me to call that they are overpowered. However, in the eye of someone who defines endgame as "as far as well bloody possible in Tower 4 Defense/Survival", nothing, not even the Boltor Prime or Dragon Nikana or whatnot will feel overpowered, because as the truth stands, none of our current weapons scale for Void at the end, the only things that scale are things that vary based on enemy level and not with our level or a fixed base value. Therefore to them, nothing may seem overpowered.
 

 

Addressing the issue of higher ranked players dragging their gear to lower nodes for whatever reasons is an issue that can only be addressed if the nature of the party system is changed. Rather than simply throwing players together based on ping or region or whatnot, there should be choices for players to select within what mastery rank players they wish to play with. Take for example I am a mastery rank 4, and I'm doing a mission. If I wanted to only play with players within my mastery rank, I could select to only play with Mastery 3-5 players. If I don't mind getting carried through by someone overgeared for this, I could set my upper limit higher. If I don't mind carrying someone, I can set my lower limit lower. If I simply don't care, I can set my limits to 0 and 30 and call it a day. Of course, this would only be viable if we first fixed Mastery Requirements for specific pieces of gear in the first place. Some people may complain that then the lower ranking players would get left in the dust, but if we remember one of the core issues, players choosing to take the simple route by using high tier weapons that shouldn't even be available to them in the first place, then they would be forced to use a variety of gear in order to escape their status as a low mastery rank player.

 

What I would propose is a redo of all the mastery rank requirements of all the weapons at the very least. Here's my personal list.

(For the most part, Event weapons will have low to no mastery requirements since they are well, event weapons)

 

Primaries/Rifles:

Amprex - MR 6

Boltor (Regular) - MR 2 or 3

Boltor Prime - MR 8

(MK-1) Braton - MR 0

Braton - MR 0

Braton (Vandal) - MR 0

Braton Prime - MR 2 (As standing, considering it performs underwhelmingly relative to it being a Prime variant against lower tier shop weapons)

Burston - MR 0

Burston Prime - MR 4

Dera - MR 1

Flux Rifle - MR 2

Gorgon - MR 4

Gorgon Wraith - (MR 0-4)

Grakata - MR 1

Grinlock - MR 2-3

Hind - MR 1

Ignis - MR 4

Karak - MR 2

Latron - MR 2

Latron Prime - MR 6

Mutulist Quanta - MR 5

Soma - MR 6

Supra - MR 4 (As standing, though I believe it deserves some buffs considering its current MR requirement)

Sybaris - MR 3

Synapse - MR 5

Tetra - MR 3 or 4

 

Shotguns:

Strun - MR 0

Strun Wraith - MR 0

Boar - MR 3

Boar Prime - MR 4

Drakgoon - MR 2

Hek - MR 2

Phage - MR 6

Sobek - MR 4

Tigris - MR 2

 

Snipers:

Lanka - MR 2

Snipetron - MR 2

Snipetron Vandal - MR 2

Vectis - MR 4

Vulkar - MR 4

 

Bows:

Attica - MR 4

Cernos - MR 2

Dread - MR 5

Paris - MR 2

Paris Prime - MR 5

 

Launchers:

Miter - MR 2

Ogris - MR 8

Penta - MR 8

Torid - MR 6

 

Secondaries/Pistols:

Acrid - MR 4

Angstrum - MR 8

Ballistica - MR 4

Bolto - MR 2

Brakk - MR 8

Bronco - MR 0

Bronco Prime - MR 4

Cestra - MR 2

Detron - MR 8

Embolist - MR 4

Furis - MR 4

Kraken - MR 2

Lato - MR 0

Lato Prime - MR 1

Lato Vandal - MR 0

Lex - MR 0

Lex Prime - MR 4 (As standing)

Magnus - MR 0

Marelok - MR 8

Pyrana - MR 4

Seer - MR 1

Sicarus - MR 0

Sicarus Prime - MR 2

Spectra - MR 2

Stug - MR 2

Tysis - MR 2

Vasto - MR 0

Viper - MR 2

 

Dual Pistols:

AFuris - MR 4

Dex Furis - MR 4

AKBolto - MR 0

AKBronco - MR 0

AKBronco Prime - MR 4

AKLato - MR 0

AKLex - MR 0

AKMagnus - MR 0

AKStiletto - MR 4

AKVasto - MR 0

Dual Cestra - MR 2

Twin Gremlins - MR 2

Twin Vipers - MR 4

Wraith Twin Vipers - MR 4

 

Thrown:

Castanas - MR 6

Despair - MR 4

Hikou - MR 2

Kunai - MR 2

 

Here are my thoughts on non-melees.

[Beas7ie]

So you are telling the penta is not broken are you telling me its even remotely balanced? No just no you don't have to do anything except fire and blow up the grenade for 5k damage... That's demanding a nerf

And then you take that penta to a T4 and as you last longer anf longer eventually all 5 of those pentanades are barely bringing down a single grunt that can instagib you.

[TwiceDead]

Dude its a co-op game, not a competitive game. If you think your kills are being taken, then you should go play solo and get as many kills as you can if thats what makes you happy. The other option would be to create your own private lobby and invite like-minded people who won't use penta or ogris. Just because you think you are entitled to get more kills each game doesn't justify asking for a nerf and ruining the game for others who want to play the game exploding rockets and barrels.

Ever heard of competitive co-op? 

The fact that they give you a results screen after a mission which details how well you did compared to your teammates is more than enough incentive to give it your all if you're of the competitive nature. 

 

That end-result screen is full of S#&$ though, so that needs to be fixed. 

 

 

And then you take that penta to a T4 and as you last longer anf longer eventually all 5 of those pentanades are barely bringing down a single grunt that can instagib you.

In these cases you are obviously playing for too long, way past the suggested play-time for a T4 session. This is thanks to the current end-less gamemodes. DE has already said in the past that they are not balancing anything for endless gamemodes, if you go too far and wipe, it's on you for taking everything warframe is balanced around way outside it's intended level usage.

 

People often discuss buffs with thoughts about end-game, what they are referring to in these threads are usually endless gamemodes. The truth is that Warframe in it's current state has no end-game. The closest we get is T4, and those are sickeningly easy outside of endless modes past 40 minutes where everything turns into artificial difficulty. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by TwiceDead

[(PSN)neo275]

That's what I don't get. Everyone whines about everything.

If this were PVP fine. But in a co-op game really???? If someone comes and literally rapes the whole map, I don't care. I still get exp from their kills, and it's less work for me to be honest. If you hate it just leave group. Even more so in the game even the crappiest guns can be somewhat OP, so I dont get the whining. Thank god DE doesn't listen to everything you guys whine about.

 

 

I do agree with the guy two posts above me though. Mastery ranks on weapons could solve a lot of the whining and more or less give a person an incentive to level their account.

Edited July 8, 2014 by (PS4)neo275

[TwiceDead]

That's what I don't get. Everyone whines about everything.

If this were PVP fine. But in a co-op game really???? If someone comes and literally rapes the whole map, I don't care. I still get exp from their kills, and it's less work for me to be honest. If you hate it just leave group. Even more so in the game even the crappiest guns can be somewhat OP, so I dont get the whining. Thank god DE doesn't listen to everything you guys whine about.

When you start seeing the game as work, maybe you shouldn't be forcing yourself to play. 

Isn't the reason you want to play games that you want to actually, play the game? The fact that this game keep encouraging laziness in people is a problem in itself, just shows that the gameplay is not engaging enough.