I Would Like To Thank Steve For Throwing Down The Mic On The Mods And Joining The Scott Side Of The Void.

[Mak_Gohae]

A Newbie who buys $5 of plat and trades for a max Serration, and puts a potato on his Braton and then roflstomps the whole Star Map is pretty much erasing "Progression", don't you think?

 

Should we be Paying To Win, mmm?

 

Who is going to sell max Serration for 75 plat?

And he cant put it on till Rank 7  which is leaving earth when the game get's a bit tough.

They did create that new system with different types of Serration so this probably solves this by limiting who can use what type of Serration.

[Xylia]

Who is going to sell max Serration for 75 plat?

And he cant put it on till Rank 7  which is leaving earth when the game get's a bit tough.

They did create that new system with different types of Serration so this probably solves this by limiting who can use what type of Serration.

 

If you get a Lotus Coupon, you could get 150 plat. *shrugs*

 

The concept remains the same whether it is $5 or $10 or whatever, though. And who says Rank 7 is 'leaving earth'?

 

When I did my newbie account test, I did grinding in Mercury to ~12 on my Braton and Warframe to fit the very few mods I did have to make killing Vor easier (it was still quite hard, solo).

 

I was Rank30 on Excalibur before I even dared touch Earth because I knew I'd need the maxed out Shields (no Redirection at the time; this was before they gave you one at the end of the tutorial).

Edited July 9, 2014 by Xylia

[Mak_Gohae]

If you get a Lotus Coupon, you could get 150 plat. *shrugs*

 

The concept remains the same whether it is $5 or $10 or whatever, though. And who says Rank 7 is 'leaving earth'?

 

 

Yes, the concept remains the same, who is going to trade Max Serration for 150?

Plus, what newbie will go for this, they need some knowledge here?

Plus, you need to be Rank 2 to trade, how long does that take to get that?

 

When I did my newbie account test, I did grinding in Mercury to ~12 on my Braton and Warframe to fit the very few mods I did have to make killing Vor easier (it was still quite hard, solo).

 

Oh right, you can just stay and just repeat missions. I just run through opening the map.

 

I was Rank30 on Excalibur before I even dared touch Earth because I knew I'd need the maxed out Shields (no Redirection at the time; this was before they gave you one at the end of the tutorial).

 

Dude........................you are way too careful.

You actually kept repeating Venus and Merc missions till Rank 30?

Seriously?

[DiabolusUrsus]

Why didn't you say that your thing was about endgame only?

We have been having two completely different conversations.

Endgame balancing should never tied to balancing the rest of the game.

 

Because that shouldn't really matter. It's a mistake to look at the "main" game and "end-game" as two entirely separate entities. They should be parts of a cohesive whole. End-game equipment should be balanced for core gameplay content, and the end-game itself should be structured in a way that it challenges players to an extent that would not be acceptable for normal gameplay. I'm not talking Nightmare-mode masochistic punishment, I'm talking fair and engaging content that makes players feel that they need the edge afforded to them by maxed-out equipment.

 

You're right about the two conversations bit, but that's mostly just because you refuse to actually address the opposition in a relevant manner.

 

As explained above, I think this idea is complete BS. Endless scaling should not be meticulously balanced, but it also should not be considered a true end-game. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

basically +1 notionphil, DiabolusUrsus, and xylia

 

i think that's about it

 

/thread

 

still glad that this thread got unlocked tho, it should never have been locked in the first place IMHO, just more stupid forums over-censorship BS

[MoyuTheTrinity]

As explained above, I think this idea is complete BS. Endless scaling should not be meticulously balanced, but it also should not be considered a true end-game. 

DE has said the same thing before T4s end game was T3 wave 20 or 20 minutes or level 35ish still kinda is T4 is just double damage enemys

that is what de balances around they dont cater to engless content or anything past this and as it stands players are still way to strong for any of this and its because of all the 3 requiered damage mods for every weapon 3 requiered elemental mods and the 2 utility mods normaly a bainmod and a speed mod 3vs 2-s

 

I blame the mod system for the slow power creep by means of indirect domino effect

Possible solutions is to remove endless scaling and have endless stop geting harder after 20/20 and removing thos "nessisary" mods used for the endless content and rebalancing the weapons so we dont have usless ones or overly strong ones

Edited July 9, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[Xylia]

Plus, you need to be Rank 2 to trade, how long does that take to get that?

 

Not long whatsoever. I had MR2 before I got through Venus.

 

Dude........................you are way too careful.

You actually kept repeating Venus and Merc missions till Rank 30?

Seriously?

 

More for money than levels, but the levels were nice.

 

This was back before they handed you a Braton after Vor; I had to repeat missions to get a Braton (which I did during Mercury). 20k takes quite a few missions when you get ~2500 per mission.

 

Then, when I got to Venus, I farmed up an Orthos as it is far, far, far, far better than Skana or even Cronus. Orthos costs 40k credits: 20k for the BP, 20k for the build cost.

 

By the time I had gotten done with this and killing Jackal for Rhino parts (took 5-6 kills), I had Rank 30 on my Warframe and high 20s on the Braton.

 

Rank30 on a Warframe really doesn't take long, what with the Warframe leeching 50% of the XP from all kills, and XP from every hacking, capture, bonus challenge, etc.

[Mak_Gohae]

Because that shouldn't really matter. It's a mistake to look at the "main" game and "end-game" as two entirely separate entities. They should be parts of a cohesive whole. End-game equipment should be balanced for core gameplay content, and the end-game itself should be structured in a way that it challenges players to an extent that would not be acceptable for normal gameplay. I'm not talking Nightmare-mode masochistic punishment, I'm talking fair and engaging content that makes players feel that they need the edge afforded to them by maxed-out equipment.

 

As explained above, I think this idea is complete BS. Endless scaling should not be meticulously balanced, but it also should not be considered a true end-game.

 

Endgame is trying to do something totally different than the rest of the game. They should not be balance at the same time as the rest of the game, i dont think anyone actually does this. And on top of that you are saying that endgame ... well you are telling DE to come up with a completely new type of endgame because endgame has always been about bringing the best of the best and trying to get through it. Specially in this game where in Survival and Defense the game just keep throwing higher and higher level enemies without limits. What you are actually saying here is that you dont want Defense and Survival-type missions to be the endgame.

 

You're right about the two conversations bit, but that's mostly just because you refuse to actually address the opposition in a relevant manner.

 

So i have no idea that you guys are only discussing endgame because no one bothered to mention this until recently but it's still my fault that i refuse to address something i had no idea that we were discussing?

 

This is sarcasm, right?

 

 

 

Not long whatsoever. I had MR2 before I got through Venus.

 

 

 

More for money than levels, but the levels were nice.

 

This was back before they handed you a Braton after Vor; I had to repeat missions to get a Braton (which I did during Mercury). 20k takes quite a few missions when you get ~2500 per mission.

 

Then, when I got to Venus, I farmed up an Orthos as it is far, far, far, far better than Skana or even Cronus. Orthos costs 40k credits: 20k for the BP, 20k for the build cost.

 

By the time I had gotten done with this and killing Jackal for Rhino parts (took 5-6 kills), I had Rank 30 on my Warframe and high 20s on the Braton.

 

Rank30 on a Warframe really doesn't take long, what with the Warframe leeching 50% of the XP from all kills, and XP from every hacking, capture, bonus challenge, etc.

 

Needless to say, this is an extremely unique situation you create that can be recreated by other people but the chances of a new player doing it are extremely to almost nonexistent. Sorry but whatever point you were trying to make is just not valid. I mean, if you get to max rank before even popping to earth... who the hell cares about having Max Serration, you can put on max anything at that point.

[notionphil]

 

So i have no idea that you guys are only discussing endgame because no one bothered to mention this until recently but it's still my fault that i refuse to address something i had no idea that we were discussing?

 

This is sarcasm, right?

 

 

Mak, I agree (yes, I said that I agreed with Mak) that gear choice matters FAR LESS outside of endgame and other than maybe serration type mods, no other mods are 'required'.

 

Yes, with a reasonable amnt of skill, you can play through any mission outside of endgamey missions with nearly any quasi-logical loadout. Problem solved? Can we all shake hands and part ways? Not at all.

 

Why? You totally ignored the other issue:

 

 

 

 

I don't always use those mods either.

I rarely use flow or shield (shield in high level content)

I don't ult spam, ever.

My most used frame is Nyx (before the Absorb change) and my most used weapons are Grakata and Seer (5 forma each).

 

My argument is not that the game is impossible, or too difficult without OP gear and the "correct" mod loadout. It's that having a "correct" loadout even exist makes the game less FUN.

 

Why?

 

-the game gets monotonous faster for many people who don't view self-handicap as an option, and always end up using the same "best" loadout per faction. These are the many Rhino Prime/Boltor Primes/ we see running around.

 

-the game gets frustrating faster for those who DO want to create a unique build, because we're usually playing at a 50-75% damage/survivability disadvantage, simply because we wanted to do our own thing. Like use a Seer. Or mod for stamina.

 

Humans are hardwired to choose the easiest, most efficient path. It's a psychological heuristic called the Principle of Least Effort. This was my primary focus of study in univ, so I do know a little more about this than I do about videogame balance.

 

If you put a clear Path of Least Resistance in a videogame, guess what happens....most people choose it! Hence Rhino Prime (or nova) | boltor Prime | Brakk and all "best" mods.

 

My argument (cant speak for anyone else, but me) is that having some mods/weapons/frames which objectively perform far better than others "forces" people to choose them, due to the Principle of Least Effort.

 

That is why I have a problem with OP weapons and "useless" mods. Not because "challenge" or "whines". Because people are hardwired to use any "clearly better" gear, and that makes the game boring for both them, and frustrating for those of us who would rather use what we want but are penalized for it.

 

You've already explained, for example, that super jump and diamond skin are not useless.

 

Can you explain what the harm would be if super jump and diamond skin were arguably as valuable as Flow and Redirection?

[Mak_Gohae]

Mak, I agree (yes, I said that I agreed with Mak) that gear choice matters FAR LESS outside of endgame and other than maybe serration type mods, no other mods are 'required'.

 

Yes, with a reasonable amnt of skill, you can play through any mission outside of endgamey missions with nearly any quasi-logical loadout. Problem solved? Can we all shake hands and part ways? Not at all.

 

Why? You totally ignored the other issue:

 

 

 

 

I have not ignored that issue, i have answered it plenty of times with the words you used above. Outside of double-endame missions you do not need optimal equipment. You agree with me.. how could i be ignoring it if you agree with what i have to say about this?

 

Humans are hardwired to choose the easiest, most efficient path. It's a psychological heuristic called the Principle of Least Effort. This was my primary focus of study in univ, so I do know a little more about this than I do about videogame balance.

 

If you put a clear Path of Least Resistance in a videogame, guess what happens....most people choose it! Hence Rhino Prime (or nova) | boltor Prime | Brakk and all "best" mods.

 

My argument (cant speak for anyone else, but me) is that having some mods/weapons/frames which objectively perform far better than others "forces" people to choose them, due to the Principle of Least Effort.

 

That is why I have a problem with OP weapons and "useless" mods. Not because "challenge" or "whines". Because people are hardwired to use any "clearly better" gear, and that makes the game boring for both them, and frustrating for those of us who would rather use what we want but are penalized for it.

 

You've already explained, for example, that super jump and diamond skin are not useless.

 

Can you explain what the harm would be if super jump and diamond skin were arguably as valuable as Flow and Redirection?

 

You are asking DE to beat the psychology of a certain group of people that always look for the easiest path. You DO know that this is impossible, right? These type of people will ALWAYS look for that path. The only way to beat this psychology is to just have everyone be grey square boxes that all attack the same way,have the same health, run the same speed, have the same energy, you get the point.

 

And im pretty sure that DE didnt create this game to beat that psychology. There is also a limit to how much they can make it seem like this is possible with what they are trying to achieve in this game, man.

 

At the beginning when you are picking frames the 3 options shown to you have one of the left described as the easier one for new players and they have one on the right described as the one for veteran players. The game is telling you that you can pick how hard the game is on you and you are saying that the game should now be balanced, or sorry the endgame, right? Right? The game should be balanced only based on the people on the left? Pshaw, i say, pshaw!

 

On top of the fact that DE ALREADY bends down to this audience most of the time whenever they add something you want even more? Do you see this,DE? Do you see what you did? Now the people that want the easy way out want everyone to play like this because you have shown by your continuous backing down and you continue to do it.

 

You agree that for most of the game you are fine with whatever you pick but even with that you STILL want to make it the game follow the people that just pick ONE single method because they cannot bring themselves to get on another when you very well know that it not going to have any significant effect on 90% of the game.

 

Pshaw!

[LukeAura]

You are asking DE to beat the psychology of a certain group of people that always look for the easiest path. You DO know that this is impossible, right? These type of people will ALWAYS look for that path. The only way to beat this psychology is to just have everyone be grey square boxes that all attack the same way,have the same health, run the same speed, have the same energy, you get the point.

Some people will do better with certain skillsets than others, or the path of least resistance is convoluted enough that no one can quite accurately say that one path is guaranteed easier than others, or challenges are structured so that some are better suited to a certain playstyle, meaning the path of least resistance changes with each encounter. And thus people take the path they find most enjoyable or is most in line with their personality or they have a natural affinity for. Warframe isn't diverse enough to confuse the path of least resistance or for natural affinity to a particular playstyle be the final deciding factor.

((And since at some point this became the Mak Gohae forums, I'm going to admit that the video you did on the Gradivus Dilemna victory was pretty entertaining.))   

[notionphil]

You are asking DE to beat the psychology of a certain group of people that always look for the easiest path. You DO know that this is impossible, right? These type of people will ALWAYS look for that path. The only way to beat this psychology is to just have everyone be grey square boxes that all attack the same way,have the same health, run the same speed, have the same energy, you get the point.

 

And im pretty sure that DE didnt create this game to beat that psychology. There is also a limit to how much they can make it seem like this is possible with what they are trying to achieve in this game, man.

 

 

This is not "a certain group" Mak. This is humanity. It's nearly everyone.

 

The oft-repeated "balance = making everything the same" argument has been disproven time and time again.

 

        Nyx, Rhino and Nova are balanced enough between eachother, but completely different.

 

        Boltor Prime, Ogris and Phage are balanced enough between eachother, but completely different.

 

 

Stop the already disproven argument that balance = same.

 

You still didn't answer my question.

 

You've already explained, for example, that super jump and diamond skin are not useless.

 

Can you explain what the harm would be if super jump and diamond skin were arguably as valuable as Flow and Redirection?

Edited July 9, 2014 by notionphil

[gnat6]

You are asking DE to beat the psychology of a certain group of people that always look for the easiest path. You DO know that this is impossible, right? These type of people will ALWAYS look for that path. 

That is very true however the people who are obsessed with always having absolute best loadout at all times make up 20% of the warframe community at most if we take away another 20% for the people like you who enjoy experimenting with new builds that still leaves 60% of the community who only use cookie cutter builds because there is never any reason not to* and they are the reason that the mods need to be rebalanced

 

because with the current balance the experimenters experiment the min-maxers find the optimal builds and the rest of the community just use the same builds as the min-maxers because they are always the best no matter what the situation

 

however if the mods were balanced so that none of them completely overshadow any of the other mods then the experimenters can still experiment the min-maxers can still min-max and the rest of the community can use whatever mods they feel like and still wind up with a fairly decent build providing they know how to use it properly and that to me sounds much more entertaining.

 

*with the exception of prosecutors but even then all people do is switch 1 or 2 elemental mods out so that barely counts.

[notionphil]

 

however if the mods were balanced so that none of them completely overshadow any of the other mods then the experimenters can still experiment the min-maxers can still min-max and the rest of the community can use whatever mods they feel like and still wind up with a fairly decent build providing they know how to use it properly and that to me sounds much more entertaining.

 

 

 

Yep, that's all I'm saying. I don't understand why this concept makes some people upset.

[Liminal]

Yep, that's all I'm saying. I don't understand why this concept makes some people upset.

Because some hate change so much they'll defend the status quo no matter what. Then when the devs do change something they praise it like it was the work of a god and forget all their naysaying.

(It's even worse in the Dota2 Dev forums.)

[Mak_Gohae]

This is not "a certain group" Mak. This is humanity. It's nearly everyone.

 

 

You have a horrible view of humanity.

Were the Black Americans taking the path of least resistance when they were fighting for their rights? Cause several died. 

 

Did Captain Claire Lee Chenault take the path of least resistance when he kept giving suggestions to Air Force Command on new air tactics and they got so mad at him that they kicked him out and he went to China and formed the American Volunteer Group aka the Flying Tigers and defended China before the US entered WWII with those new tactics so successfully that the Air Force got him back and then adopted those tactics?

 

Did the first Neaderthal that said, " You know what? That homo sapiens sapiens chick is skinny, like, super model skinny but she got a pretty face, im going to ask her out." Then his friend said, "What!? Come on, dude, how can you go for that walking stick. Look at Ugana over there, baby got back. What is wrong with you?" Was he taking the easy way out?

 

Neil deGrasse Tyson, Cosmos! Come on!

 

 

The oft-repeated "balance = making everything the same" argument has been disproven time and time again.

 

        Nyx, Rhino and Nova are balanced enough between eachother, but completely different.

 

        Boltor Prime, Ogris and Phage are balanced enough between eachother, but completely different.

 

 

Stop the already disproven argument that balance = same.

 

A power is balanced... A power.

People constantly complain about Nyx's MC being useless, Mind Daggers being stupid, Absorb has gotten nothing but complains since it first came out. People just like Nyx cause of Chaos. Nova Science Now is really just about her fourth with her 2nd getting some play. Rhino is the only that gets little complains because he has one buff, one defense, one super destructive aoe, and most people ignore charge. He has every angle covered.

 

And who the hell uses the ogris now when we have the Penta and Angstrum? And you least resistance guys supposed to be using the easiest stuff? The control that the Penta offers blows the Ogris out of the water when it comes to ease.

 

 

You still didn't answer my question

You've already explained, for example, that super jump and diamond skin are not useless.

 

Can you explain what the harm would be if super jump and diamond skin were arguably as valuable as Flow and Redirection?

 

I have several times which you apparently refuse to accept and that  is not my fault.

 

Super jump is fine, diamond skin is fine, Flow and Redirection are not needed as oh wait.... is this end game discussion?

 

Cause, AGAIN, i am not discussing that. The discussion was about what was on the stream.

From now on you need to clearly label what you are talking about because endgame and the rest of the game are two different animals.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[LukeAura]

You have a horrible view of humanity.

Were the Black Americans taking the path of least resistance when they were fighting for their rights? Cause several died. 

 

Did Captain Claire Lee Chenault take the path of least resistance when he kept giving suggestions to Air Force Command on new air tactics and they got so mad at him that they kicked him out and he went to China and formed the American Volunteer Group aka the Flying Tigers and defended China before the US entered WWII with those new tactics so successfully that the Air Force got him back and then adopted those tactics?

 

Did the first Neaderthal that said, " You know what? That homo sapiens sapiens chick is skinny, like, super model skinny but she got a pretty face, im going to ask her out." Then his friend said, "What!? Come on, dude, how can you go for that walking stick. Look at Ugana over there, baby got back. What is wrong with you?" Was he taking the easy way out?

The path of least resistance leads somewhere. You are treating the endgoal as the path and that is not the same. 

[Mak_Gohae]

The path of least resistance leads somewhere. You are treating the endgoal as the path and that is not the same. 

 

When did i say the path of least resistance leads to nowhere?

Because i didnt.

The idea he put forth that basically all humanity functions this way is nuts.

[LukeAura]

When did i say the path of least resistance leads to nowhere?

Because i didnt.

The idea he put forth that basically all humanity functions this way is nuts.

You're treating the endgoal as the path. It isn't. 

 

[KorbanGado]

That is very true however the people who are obsessed with always having absolute best loadout at all times make up 20% of the warframe community at most if we take away another 20% for the people like you who enjoy experimenting with new builds that still leaves 60% of the community who only use cookie cutter builds because there is never any reason not to* and they are the reason that the mods need to be rebalanced

 

because with the current balance the experimenters experiment the min-maxers find the optimal builds and the rest of the community just use the same builds as the min-maxers because they are always the best no matter what the situation

 

however if the mods were balanced so that none of them completely overshadow any of the other mods then the experimenters can still experiment the min-maxers can still min-max and the rest of the community can use whatever mods they feel like and still wind up with a fairly decent build providing they know how to use it properly and that to me sounds much more entertaining.

 

*with the exception of prosecutors but even then all people do is switch 1 or 2 elemental mods out so that barely counts.

I think it's kind of hard to "balance" some mods imo. I mean, how does something that lets you slide further balance against something that gives you more energy? Don't get me wrong, some mods could certainly use a bit of a boost to make them more tempting in general, but at the same time the hardest limitations are how you play and who you play with. Stealth boosting mods are useless if everyone else is running rambo, for example.

In general (and to the title of the thread) I agree with the sentiment expressed, even if the presentation was rough around the edges. The mod system could use tweaks, sure, but theres a point where it crosses being constructive criticism coming from us and us just thinking we know everything and are right. I mean, if I'm talking to a guy building my house (who's a licensed builder or whatever), I'm not about to tell him "Hey, you can't do that" because obviously he (should) know what they can and can't do - but I might go "Hey, can we maybe try this?" and if he says no then so be it. The mod systems is great in my opinion, and although it could be incredibly more interesting if they slowly started retro-actively changing all mods to be that sort of give/take of the corrupted mods, I also feel it might completely overwhelm people. 

I mean, heck, I know people who were telling me the game was really hard, so I asked if they had any mods put on and they were confused as to what I meant. I think some of that might be fixed by tutorials nowadays (perhaps?), I kind of just figured it out as i went. The versatility of the current system is great (even if it could use some banking) and I far enjoy it more than any skill tree systems (tanks be tanks, and only be tanks VS tanks normally be tanks, but I want to spec him to be more casty). I would like to see them play with the corrupted give/take system more, but the RNG in the game is at least partially one of my less favored things, and it'd only get worse if now there was twelve versions of Serration - one with a negative to fire rate, one with a negative to reload, one with a negative to accuracy, etcetera. 

Also, saying skill doesn't exist in this game is kind of an elitist crap comment to make. It might not take as much skill as other games, but at the same time it requires a bit if you want to be better than just passing. Maybe it's just me not being humble, but I've seen people do crazy things while playing this game - and they are things I can't manage at times - and then have had moments myself when I've done things I couldn't believe. As a note to that - Dark souls can be about skill, but it can be just as much about memorization as anything else - just like contra or the old Ninja Gaiden. Any game can benefit from skills - some are different than others, and some don't require them to win, but they are there. Reaction time and consistent shot placement is totally a skill - otherwise I guess some military or police officers aren't very skilled at their jobs, huh? 

Thats my two cents.

[Onisa]

Hey Mak, I've seen you follow the path of least resistance in response to the Dark Souls comparison.

Refusing to acknowledge something unless it's delivered to you is certainly easier than putting a few keywords into YouTube/Google after all.

[notionphil]

You have a horrible view of humanity.

 

Were the Black Americans taking the path of least resistance when they were fighting for their rights? Cause several died. 

 

 

----

 

I have [answered] several times which you apparently refuse to accept and that  is not my fault.

 

1) I'm not giving you my opinion, my statement was one of fact. Anyway, we don't need to "predict" behavior here, we can all see the Pentas, Somas Novas and Rhinos to illustrate the heuristic in action.

 

2) Can you write <answer> tags around the answer? If you attempted an answer to my specific question, it was garbled/unclear/rhetorical beyond recognition.

 

3) I am a black American.

 

"Several" of us did not die while fighting for civil rights. Ahem.

 

When you are the target of oppression, reinforced with violence, behavioral heuristics can get a little iffy.  You get me?

 

3) You just equated the struggles of millions of my ancestors to live free from oppression to loadout selection in a videogame.

 

You're one step away from supporting Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law). AKA - the hitler reference.

 

Do yourself a favor and keep the conversation about videogames.

Edited July 9, 2014 by notionphil

[notionphil]

I think it's kind of hard to "balance" some mods imo. I mean, how does something that lets you slide further balance against something that gives you more energy? Don't get me wrong, some mods could certainly use a bit of a boost to make them more tempting in general, but at the same time the hardest limitations are how you play and who you play with. Stealth boosting mods are useless if everyone else is running rambo, for example.

 

How do you balance a rocket launcher against a shotgun and a sword?

 

How do you balance a Tank against a DPS against a Nuker?

 

You spend some time and get creative, and think about each until each feels arguably as valuable as the other. You may also need gameplay situations (within missions, not between missions) where each has a chance to shine.

 

Rush is almost as "valuable" as mods like streamline and flow for many playstyles. Maglev, however is not and will never be.

 

How abt this:

 

Maglev: +100% slide distance and speed, +50% slide atk damage. slide consumes 4x stamina.

 

Is that "balanced" against rush? streamline? I don't know, I'd have to test it in game. But at least its an attempt. This can be done, DE would just have to try.

 

And again, what is the harm?

[Zachles]

I have strong feelings about this, but I don't want another warning point.

[5Billion]

Because some hate change so much they'll defend the status quo no matter what. Then when the devs do change something they praise it like it was the work of a god and forget all their naysaying.

(It's even worse in the Dota2 Dev forums.)

HA! But the problem is, DE doesn't want to change what's already in the game. They just keep adding on to their to-do list.