An Exploration Of The Representation Of Gender/sex In Warframe (Authorised Redux)

[GlamourChariot]

Huh, slightly off-topic, but an intersex/androgynous 'frame would be an interesting idea if handled correctly. It's not like it would fundamentally change how the 'frame would work, so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Then again, it'd be hard to convey that sort of thing with the warframe's design, so maybe the idea isn't really worth it. Plus, I don't trust the community not to treat an intersex/androgynous character as a bad thing, which would be supremely disappointing to deal with.

 

Also, your current discussion is really starting to derail the thread. Not that it isn't a worthwhile discussion, but I'm not really sure it matters in the context of gender representation of Warframe.

 

It's somewhat venting at how skewed people are towards what they want to believe, but at least it brought you to raise a pretty great point.

 

It'd be fantastic for an androgynous character referred to only as "they" and whatnot, keeping in the mysterious tones the Tenno seem to adore so; of course with that having no impact on the character's abilities and whatnot.

[ss4chris]

First of all, please understand that I sought (and received) DE's approval before I restarted this topic.

 

Second, I would prefer it if everyone would keep their language civil and respectful, lest the topic be closed a second time.

 

Now that that is out of the way, here is an edited (hopefully improved) version of the old topic's original post:

 

Hello, fellow Tenno. I wish to ask what your opinions are on the representations of Male frames vs Female frames.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but this is for a piece of work exploring gender representation in video games that I'm doing in College.

 

My take on the matter is as follows:

 

Warframe stands out to me as an example of well-done characters across the genders because it does not make a distinction between them when it comes to battlefield roles. Every character archetype has a match (for example, the tanks (Rhino and Valkyr) and the mobility/survivability specialists (Volt and Zephyr)), and the only divergences are the means by which they achieve their archetype (to take the above example, Rhino forms a protective shell, while Valkyr flies into a hysterical rage).

 

This shows (to me, at least) that the only difference between the genders is the frame's selection of powers, something that is already a part of the game's mechanics.

 

As far as Sexualisation goes, the line becomes blurred somewhat. While there is no blatant fanservice (a consequence of having all of the characters completely covered up head to toe), and the frames (both male and female) all have varied body types, the fact that fanart of the male frames tends to lean more towards the epic, or spiritual side of the game, while fanart of the female frames tends to lean towards the more sexual end of the spectrum. I don't believe that this is DE's fault, but the infamous "Ember Agile" animation does call it into question.

 

Remember, please keep the discussion respectful.

 

Edit: If you had a post in the original thread, feel free to copy/paste it here.

 

i want both genders for all warframes. I been saying this since Update 8. but its been squashed  T_t

[Corvid]

i want both genders for all warframes. I been saying this since Update 8. but its been squashed  T_t

 

Because it's a waste of resources. The effort to make distinct but similar frames using the same theme (The only way DE says they would do it) could easily go towards making completely new frames.

[Nkomo-Sama]

i want both genders for all warframes. I been saying this since Update 8. but its been squashed  T_t

I just don't think DE is willing to do it. It'd be cool but again it'd be purely cosmetic. Would it be worth the resources needed to make them? (The time and effort of DE could be spent on core mechanics improvements) I'd much rather see improved netcode and parkour changes in addition to newer more diverse enemies than anything else.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Turnoverman]

To be quite honest, I'm not sure if that's true. We just don't know enough about the lore of Warframe to make that assertion, so despite what you personally believe on the matter, it makes more sense to deal with gender as it exists from what we know, and what we know are the 'frames themselves. We treat them like distinct characters because that's what they're presented as.

 

They aren't presented as distinct characters. My Valkyr learns everything that my Nekros learns. All 17 or so of my Warframes have just as much affinity with every single one of my guns. Plus, why would a mercenary group of 17 adamantly refuse to send more than one person out on a mission?

 

You imply that this is not a meta-discussion of Warframe's portrayal of feminine vs masculine characters. Regardless of your headcanon, the fact remains that half of the frames have female characteristics. The topic of discussion is whether or not Warframe's portrayal is respectful.

 

Eh. Fair point. I'm not going to pretend I'm right on that point.

 

Wouldn't this just mean the breasts we see are just padding?

 

YES. It would. They are. They're a historical record of which Tenno was the first Tenno to use the Warframe. The blueprint for the chassis was designed with breasts because the first users had them, so there was no reason to get rid of them just because some of the people wearing them don't have them. The gender connection doesn't exist, so altering blueprints to manufacture it out of nothing would make no sense.

[(PSN)Folkeye]

Just my .02 (and this is just Warframe)

 

The only issue I have is that even though they are all covered head to toe, the men tend to have much more elaboration and pieces to their costume all over their body while they do what they can to keep the women 'sexy' and simple with less parts adorning them in key areas. So that's how it's easier to sexualize the ladies. The women tend to have a tight style body suit that shows them off at all angles, while the guys have a varied range of design. They can have the tight form fitting suit (here's to you Excalibur) or all out, elegant, non form showing coverage (hi Frost) and everything in between from sleek to pointy, simple to wild. So its skewed in that manner to me. 

 

But that's always been my point of view as a female gamer. Men can look like anything in the world, while women still have to be presented in a certain light to please the men playing. So yeah, that's not going to change any time soon unfortunately.  Boys=no constraint, Women= still sexual objects even if we try to pretend you're not.

 

Be it the Tenno are Male/Female/Genderless/Whatever, it's the visual of what we see. The shapes are obviously female/male by design due to what we're familiar with.

 

In my little game world, each Tenno I play is an individual. The frame channels the power they have, not gives it to them. More fun for me, more variety in imagining personality.

Edited July 17, 2014 by (PS4)Folkeye

[ss4chris]

I just don't think DE is willing to do it. It'd be cool but again it'd be purely cosmetic. Would it be worth the resources needed to make them? 

I think it would be worth it.

want a female Loki? :3

want a male trinity?

some of my friends stay away from warframes purely cuz of they're not the sex they want .

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

take at her physique too. She is pretty much the closest warframe will get to fan service. That's also my opinion on valkyr- a screaming and hysterical almost child-like female unable to control her emotion which is a bit understandable giving her traumatic creation in the hands of salad V but i do still question Valkyr's "personality" when she is surrounded by strong and capable female warframes.

well she's supposed to look stripped down so their are a lot less decorative bits to distract from the female fore (I.e. Zephyr). I don't see as fan service so much as a design choice. Once again if you can imagine if it was a male character model he would still have the stripped down musculature look.

[GlamourChariot]

YES. It would. They are. They're a historical record of which Tenno was the first Tenno to use the Warframe. The blueprint for the chassis was designed with breasts because the first users had them, so there was no reason to get rid of them just because some of the people wearing them don't have them. The gender connection doesn't exist, so altering blueprints to manufacture it out of nothing would make no sense.

 

This last point is actually plausible in that the "female" Grineer have padding rather than actual breasts, quite possibly to fit with age old representations of women that they still attempt to abide by; similarly (but still only possibly) linked to the twin queens possibly being better representations of older humanity that they attempt to copy.

 

All speculation but still somewhat relevant.

Edited July 17, 2014 by GlamourChariot

[TenshuYuusha]

That's reading too much into it. Another person believed that her power "Hysteria" promoted the idea that women are over-emotional, which is a ridiculous.

Rhino puts you in temporary stasis with a stomp

Oberon slams you down with righteous fury

Loki makes your means of attack useless

Nova alters your very being

Valkyr... just got pissed off you left the damn toilet seat up. :v

[PeripheralVisionary]

YES. It would. They are. They're a historical record of which Tenno was the first Tenno to use the Warframe. The blueprint for the chassis was designed with breasts because the first users had them, so there was no reason to get rid of them just because some of the people wearing them don't have them. The gender connection doesn't exist, so altering blueprints to manufacture it out of nothing would make no sense.

Is this speculation or did DE say something? 

Because then why wouldn't we make breasts a cosmetic option?

[GlamourChariot]

Valkyr... just got &!$$ed off you left the damn toilet seat up. :v

 

Even if this is a joke it's playing off stereotypes and is mildly sexist either way, jus sayin.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Just my .02 (and this is just Warframe)

 

The only issue I have is that even though they are all covered head to toe, the men tend to have much more elaboration and pieces to their costume all over their body while they do what they can to keep the women 'sexy' and simple with less parts adorning them in key areas. So that's how it's easier to sexualize the ladies. The women tend to have a tight style body suit that shows them off at all angles, while the guys have a varied range of design. They can have the tight for fitting suit (here's to you Excalibur) or all out, elegant, non form showing coverage (hi Frost) and everything in between from sleek to pointy, simple to wild. So its skewed in that manner to me. 

 

But that's always been my point of view as a female gamer. Men can look like anything in the world, while women still have to be presented in a certain light to please the men playing. So yeah, that's not going to change any time soon unfortunately.  Boys=no constraing, Women= still sexual objects even if we try to pretend you're not.

 

Be it the Tenno are Male/Female/Genderless/Whatever, it's the visual of what we see. The shapes are obviously female/male by design.

I think De is doing a better job than most at least. Nothing ruins immersion for me as much as female "armor" in most games. I often want to yell, "Who the hell makes armor that will drive a glancing blow directly into their sternum!!!" And I'm a dude.

[PeripheralVisionary]

Even if this is a joke it's playing off stereotypes and is mildly sexist either way, jus sayin.

They do say the best jokes are offensive. 

[Psychen]

I think this discussion should continue to debate <Should we have Gender customization in frames?> instead of the sexual innuendo behind Breasts and codpieces in our society. Same goes for frame behaviour, you got female warriors and hysterical males in real life, the core subject here reflects physiology.

-------------------------------

 

My points to this discussion are:

 

-The Tenno we save (Rescue missions; cryopods) have genders, and frames are built for specific genders (taking in mind their physiology);

 

-DE makes you play as a female/male character regardless of your own gender (this is great to balance player population regarding sexual discrimination, allowing the players at the same time to freely explore the other gender but are also limited to the existing option).

 

 

So, possibility of gender discrimination & resources to create both gender frames  > freedom of player choice regarding gender?

[Turnoverman]

Is this speculation or did DE say something? 

Because then why wouldn't we make breasts a cosmetic option?

 

It's speculation of the same degree that that isn't the case. They have confirmed that there is a Tenno behind every design, but only behind the design. They haven't gone past that because, well, the people speculating that every warframe is a different person would get mad if they said that each account has one associated Tenno, and if they said every Warframe comes with a built in psychic new recruit, then people like me would get mad. Safer to say neither.

 

You asked for the implications of my response, I said yes and explained why I think that. Nothing more.

[natty762]

I thought this'd be a good place to show how one person has used their perspective of the frames' personalities to draw them - I love how they've done the drawings:

 

Here is the topic

 

But for the sake of convenience I'll put the images here, too:

 

Loki:

 

 

Excalibur:

Excalbur! :O

 

Nova:

WOW! didn't expect all these nice comments o^o

danke! ^O^

here's a (horribly drawn) Novy!



it's not the same type as the Loki... "^w^

Nova doesn't really have any "edges" ya'know ""owo

 

 

Odd, the deviantart image seems to have disappeared! A real shame, but you can find the Google images link to it here, which hopefully you can see.

 

What's great is that Loki, a male frame, is in no way seen like Excalibur, who is also male (I'm pointing this out because this is a topic on the view of genders, I'm not trying to seem condescending). This somewhat shows how different people can interpret how DE has shown the frames, based on personality as opposed to sexuality. The Nova they have drawn has personality written all over it (and is the funniest of the lot, imo).

 

What do you think?

[Corvid]

So, possibility of gender discrimination & resources to create both gender frames  > freedom of player choice regarding gender?

 

This is technically off topic, but I'll humour you by saying that yes, the former should outweigh the latter. It's one of the things that make this game stand out.

[NevanChambers]

Because it's a waste of resources. The effort to make distinct but similar frames using the same theme (The only way DE says they would do it) could easily go towards making completely new frames.

This I'd rather have 40 unique frames with different powers even if 20 of them shared the theme than have all those resources go to what is basically a re-skin.

[CaptainJohnson]

They aren't presented as distinct characters. My Valkyr learns everything that my Nekros learns. All 17 or so of my Warframes have just as much affinity with every single one of my guns. Plus, why would a mercenary group of 17 adamantly refuse to send more than one person out on a mission?

 

-snip-

 

Each of those has a distinctly different explanation. The guns, for example, has to do with the modding technology itself changing the gun, which makes sense with Forma as a mechanic. Which isn't to say that's necessarily the case, but your explanation isn't set in stone either. As it stands, we don't know for sure which way it is so it doesn't make any sense to assume it's one way or another. At any rate, the last question probably goes into the "Inverse Rule of Ninja" territory, where more ninjas are harder to kill than just a few. While I'm partially joking about that (Dr. McNinja, I'm lookin' @ you), it's also a common thing for works of fiction. It's hard to come up with an explanation for every plot hole because it's, y'know, still a fictional setting, but those potential plot holes don't mean that your interpretation is correct.

 

-snip-

 

You're practically stating that you've got confirmation bias going on before even playing the game. You take a couple frames for examples and act as if females don't have the same customization options (ie: armor cosmetics) and act like the female warframes don't have a variation in their designs (which they do). You use a couple frames as contrast and fail to make the same distinction with female warframes, and then continue to generalize video games to fit your opinion.

[PeripheralVisionary]

This is technically off topic, but I'll humour you by saying that yes, the former should outweigh the latter. It's one of the things that make this game stand out.

Wow, you're quite the cynic.

[Radford_343]

Just my .02 (and this is just Warframe)

 

The only issue I have is that even though they are all covered head to toe, the men tend to have much more elaboration and pieces to their costume all over their body while they do what they can to keep the women 'sexy' and simple with less parts adorning them in key areas. So that's how it's easier to sexualize the ladies. The women tend to have a tight style body suit that shows them off at all angles, while the guys have a varied range of design. They can have the tight for fitting suit (here's to you Excalibur) or all out, elegant, non form showing coverage (hi Frost) and everything in between from sleek to pointy, simple to wild. So its skewed in that manner to me. 

 

But that's always been my point of view as a female gamer. Men can look like anything in the world, while women still have to be presented in a certain light to please the men playing. So yeah, that's not going to change any time soon unfortunately.  Boys=no constraing, Women= still sexual objects even if we try to pretend you're not.

 

Be it the Tenno are Male/Female/Genderless/Whatever, it's the visual of what we see. The shapes are obviously female/male by design due to what we're familiar with.

 

In my little game world, each Tenno I play is an individual. The frame channels the power they have, not gives it to them. More fun for me, more variety in imagining personality.

 

Yeah, you're right.

 

I actually didn't realize how true this was for even for warframe until I decided to do a double check and see all the warframes side by side.

 

I think I know what to make of that, but I lack the writing skills to sufficiently elaborate.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Radford_343

[CaptainJohnson]

Yeah, you're right.

 

I actually didn't realize how true this was for even for warframe until I decided to do a double check and see all the warframes side by side.

 

I think I know what to make of that, but I lack written skills to sufficiently elaborate.

 

Wat.

 

I am looking at the 'frames right now and I have no idea what either of you are talking about. Do we really need to discuss every single 'frame here, 'cause I'm down with that if people are still seriously thinking that this is a thing.

[D3ST]

We live in a time, where women are out and about on the job market, have high posts in politics and in corporations etc etc..

They do extreme sports like rock climbing, Paragliding and martial arts, just as good as men do,..

my point being, that females can do exactly the same things as men can, and we live in a time, where they are allowed to show it..

I always liked the strong independant female arch type, and like their roles in WF. as equals to the men..

 

But in videogames and comics, (and many movies for that matter) they are often also portrayed as somewhat more sexual than their male counterparts, i guess its a relic of the time when videogames and comics was mostly played/read by young males, (and probally still is)

another thing to remember is that, the artists making the characters in both games and comics, are predominently straight males,

( i actually dont have any proof of this, just call it a hunch)

Edited July 17, 2014 by D3ST

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I disagree with you, but I think you did a much better job with this version of the OP.  Well done, Corvid.