Zaresin Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Ugh....people stop arguing with him....he delights in derailing threads with pointless nonsensical posts. Just ignore any of his posts. Just report them for derailing and move on. Edited July 21, 2014 by Zaresin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qloshae Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 "Unhappy players=less income for DE Happy players=more income" If DE gives everyone 1 million plat for free then players would be very happy, but DE would not be making any money, ergo, player happiness =/= DE profits. That would go under https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity yes? What you say is technically true, but doesn't make his statement false. If people feel happy and like they are getting what they want they are more likely to be careless with small expenses and therefor spending a lot of money. If people instead feel that the company is fishing for money instead of entertainment they will get suspicious and think again about spending those precious and hard earned money. Ignoring that, let's for the sake of it say that 10% of players regularly buy platinum. A more happy player base means more people are likely to start playing which means more money as that 10% remains the same. If instead people are whining about how it is pay 2 win or that the company is fishing for money, less people will start playing and some will leave meaning that the income decreases or even comes to a halt or decline. Think of it this way (completely ignore warframe, just think in general). What game are you most likely to recommend to your friends? The one that focuses on player experiences who only asks for necessary amount of income, but doesn't fish for more than that or the one that builds new content specifically aimed at those who spend money and refuses to change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirmyBurrito Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I thought realistic and reasonable circumstances relating to the topic in this thread was a given. I am sorry, but your unrealistic ideas are not valid excuses. You guys have some good ideas, but keeping RNG in a platinum transaction is just a bad idea. Look at PW, and you may understand. Stop bringing up PWE. DE isn't PWE. Constantly associating them as a means of using fear to reinforce a point regarding a non-issue is not how you should go about showing DE that you don't like something. The thing that PWE does and that people have a problem with is putting OP gear in lockboxes. Cosmetics in a gambling box is not something that usually gets people upset. Just look at all the other games that do it. Edited July 21, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfen Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 And I am saying that there may be an interaction with then where DD, Dd, and dd all produce different results. Whereas if go from Dd to DD you get a different result. The thing is... you don't. DD is not a mutation, it happens and most of the time one being black hair with humans. people with black hair may have genes for red. but if you only take the dominant trait, the red has 0% chance to transfer to the next generation. Double D with both black hair genes just ends up being black and red hair can only even exist if the person is dd both red (or another d that may be even more recessive then red) But EVEN with DD both black from the parents. A kubrow still has a chance to develop a a trait that is none of those dominant features. if a zebra pattern shows on a kubrow than the dominant gene made it so that that happens. so the template should take that gene. take 2 templates of kubrows with zebra patterns and... guess what. no zebra pattern has to show. You say wait a few gens. I say genetically and realistically flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Stop bringing up PWE. DE isn't PWE. Constantly associating them as a means of using fear to reinforce a point regarding a non-issue is not how you should go about showing DE that you don't like something. The thing that PWE does and that people have a problem with is putting OP gear in lockboxes. Cosmetics in a gambling box is not something that usually gets people upset. Just look at all the other games that do it. The difference between those games and this one is that this is a precedent that has not been crossed to date in this game. And it is something not wanted by a large part of the community. That is the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atpbx1 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Welcome to the casual gamer generation. This is why CoD became so bad, and keeps getting worse, from CoD2 on. Casual gamers basically want everything handed to them with no effort or thought required while the game continuously praises them for it. I've been a video gamer since 1984 (not that that is anything to be proud of) I know what I want from my games, and that's entertainment and fun. Do I **** want to come home at night and grind and not get what I need for weeks at a time or spend my money at a "chance" of getting something that I want, especially when there are no odds to decide whether it's a worthwhile gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archeyef Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 False. Burden of Proof always lies with the positive claim. It's logically fallacious to ask for negative proof. If you're gonna argue for proper debating etiquette, do so correctly. ;-) The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. The positivity or negativity of the claim is irrelevant to burden of proof. If you have made a claim, it is up to you to prove your claim, whether your claim is fallacious or not. If your claim is fallacious, that just makes it incredibly difficult (impossible) to prove your claim. It doesn't shift the burden to the other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 False. Burden of Proof always lies with the positive claim. It's logically fallacious to ask for negative proof. If you're gonna argue for proper debating etiquette, do so correctly. ;-) "When the assertion to prove is a negative claim, the burden takes the form of a negative proof, proof of impossibility, or mere evidence of absence." The thing is... you don't. DD is not a mutation, it happens and most of the time one being black hair with humans. people with black hair may have genes for red. but if you only take the dominant trait, the red has 0% chance to transfer to the next generation. Double D with both black hair genes just ends up being black and red hair can only even exist if the person is dd both red (or another d that may be even more recessive then red) But EVEN with DD both black from the parents. A kubrow still has a chance to develop a a trait that is none of those dominant features. if a zebra pattern shows on a kubrow than the dominant gene made it so that that happens. so the template should take that gene. take 2 templates of kubrows with zebra patterns and... guess what. no zebra pattern has to show. You say wait a few gens. I say genetically and realistically flawed. I am aware how it works in the real world. However, we don't yet know how it works in the game. There is no reason Dd would not give a different result than DD in the game. In which case, taking two imprints from the same Dd Kubro would result in something different. To get the same result you might have to take an imprint From a DD/Dd and a dd to get the same Dd you started with. Not to mention, that there make be conflicts with trying to use two imprints from the same, single, parent, similar to excessive inbreeding. I've been a video gamer since 1984 (not that that is anything to be proud of) I know what I want from my games, and that's entertainment and fun. Do I **** want to come home at night and grind and not get what I need for weeks at a time or spend my money at a "chance" of getting something that I want, especially when there are no odds to decide whether it's a worthwhile gamble. If you have been playing that long then you should be used to grinding an repetitive tasks. That was the whole point of games in that era. I have played the NES and 2600 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viverim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Kubrow were done this way seemingly to facilitate the breeding thing they were trying to do to make Kubrow actually feel like a living thing rather than some item you can do with as you please. The problem is that it seems incomplete. [DE]pablo said that the random scramble was an accident, and they decided that it made Kubrows different and decided to keep it. It was not done on purpose, acording to what I read. The fact that they don't seem to care that #1 - this is contrary to all previous cosmetic decisions and #2 - that this is really upsetting a sizable number of people is worrisome. People say they aren't concerned with the 'slippery slope' argument, but when you depart this radically from your normal practice in a key feature of a major update, what does this say about the thought process of the creator? It becomes a viable option for the future. Will gear related lockboxes be out tomorrow? no, they won't. But it sets up the precedent for them to appear one day. You are taking away people's creative influences in favor of either #1-random, uncontrollable chance, or #2-mindless time sink breeding features that may give you what you want, but takes weeks or months to achieve, if you can find an honest person trading the right items in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 That would go under https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity yes? What you say is technically true, but doesn't make his statement false. If people feel happy and like they are getting what they want they are more likely to be careless with small expenses and therefor spending a lot of money. If people instead feel that the company is fishing for money instead of entertainment they will get suspicious and think again about spending those precious and hard earned money. Ignoring that, let's for the sake of it say that 10% of players regularly buy platinum. A more happy player base means more people are likely to start playing which means more money as that 10% remains the same. If instead people are whining about how it is pay 2 win or that the company is fishing for money, less people will start playing and some will leave meaning that the income decreases or even comes to a halt or decline. Think of it this way (completely ignore warframe, just think in general). What game are you most likely to recommend to your friends? The one that focuses on player experiences who only asks for necessary amount of income, but doesn't fish for more than that or the one that builds new content specifically aimed at those who spend money and refuses to change it? I would recommend the one I had the most fun with. The company fishing for income is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForgemasterHD Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I would recommend the one I had the most fun with. The company fishing for income is irrelevant. Is it really? I would highly disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. The positivity or negativity of the claim is irrelevant to burden of proof. If you have made a claim, it is up to you to prove your claim, whether your claim is fallacious or not. If your claim is fallacious, that just makes it incredibly difficult (impossible) to prove your claim. It doesn't shift the burden to the other person. Incorrect. Hell, it's intellectually dishonest to appeal to a logical construct (burden of proof) in one breath while asserting that very foundation it's built upon doesn't matter in the next. It always lies with the falsifiable claim. There's a reason Russell's teapot's a thing, afterall. ;-) Edited July 21, 2014 by Taranis49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 [DE]pablo said that the random scramble was an accident, and they decided that it made Kubrows different and decided to keep it. It was not done on purpose, acording to what I read. The fact that they don't seem to care that #1 - this is contrary to all previous cosmetic decisions and #2 - that this is really upsetting a sizable number of people is worrisome. People say they aren't concerned with the 'slippery slope' argument, but when you depart this radically from your normal practice in a key feature of a major update, what does this say about the thought process of the creator? It becomes a viable option for the future. Will gear related lockboxes be out tomorrow? no, they won't. But it sets up the precedent for them to appear one day. You are taking away people's creative influences in favor of either #1-random, uncontrollable chance, or #2-mindless time sink breeding features that may give you what you want, but takes weeks or months to achieve, if you can find an honest person trading the right items in the first place. That is a slippery slope argument. You can't prove a pattern exists after one incident. It takes at least three instances to constitute a pattern. What's more, the goal of this feature seems to be the raising and caring for of virtual dogs rather than the end goal of having another painted up sentinel. This is different than anything else released in the game, and it makes since that the mechanic regarding it would be different as well for the simple fact that the goal of the system is different as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Is it really? I would highly disagree. And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braken Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Please, PLEASE stop replying to DesecratedFlame. It's VERY obvious he's trying to get the thread derailed so it gets locked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForgemasterHD Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) At any rate, I am unsatisfied with both of the DE's responses and their apathetic nature. Both seemed to suggest that we have to deal with it, and neither really seemed to indicate this is an issue, even though it is, evidenced by the 743 (at time of typing) responses. Edited July 21, 2014 by ForgemasterHD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Please, PLEASE stop replying to DesecratedFlame. It's VERY obvious he's trying to get the thread derailed so it gets locked... What? I am only offering my opinions. If anything posts like yours (rudeness, calling people out and casting aspersions on their character), is far more likely to get the thread locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStag Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 What? I am only offering my opinions. If anything posts like yours (rudeness, calling people out and casting aspersions on their character), is far more likely to get the thread locked. I appreciate opinions and feedback. Thanks for contributing, but be careful to debate instead of argue and keep this on topic. I don't want this thread containing amazing ideas from many Tenno being suddenly locked due to derailment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfen Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Think i may know where the genetics could go wrong. What if, even with two templates of the same kind, the original egg that is fully rng also counts in the gene domination battle... It would explain things and be a massive fail at the same time. The only ones who can confirm this from this point on is DE though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStag Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Think i may know where the genetics could go wrong. What if, even with two templates of the same kind, the original egg that is fully rng also counts in the gene domination battle... It would explain things and be a massive fail at the same time. The only ones who can confirm this from this point on is DE though Interesting thought! I wish that the egg would determine which type of Kubrow, but the templates would determinate the appearance. That would make things very simple to manipulate to what the owner desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The rng aspect of coloring things without viable alternatives for platinum is a total mistake and it adds nothing to the game more than frustration. A game should be fun and appealing to alot of ppl and for that to be it needs easy and viable options. If we could color the kub the way we want, it would still be alive you still need to take care of the kub, the color of the kub doesn't break the game in any way. It dosent fit the games logic in my opinion not to be able to color the kub the way we want for Platinum, we can color the frames the sentinels the weapons like we want for it to feel personalised, but not the kub??? The breeding aspect of the kubrow is a cool concept and may be a way for some ppl to get what they like, but that is nothing i want to spend time on, looking at a spamed the hell out chat box isent what i want to do or think is fun about this game.... I love this game and how were able to make frames sentinels and wepons feel personal, i love my kub and how he looks, but i truely HATE his colors! his colors are ugly i dont like em! 600p later and his colors are still ugly! none of the scrambled results was appealing to me colorwise. The way i feel about not having my kub looking the way i want after 600p is, no fun...... The way i feel about haveing my ugly colored kub in a mission is, no fun.... il still lvl up hes mods and so on in hope that DE gives us options to color them the way we want, i truley hope they do.... Possible fix Keep the rng 10p a scramble thing for ppl how like it. Add rng scramble for x amount of credits for ppl how like it that dont want to/or cant spend real money on platinum. Add the possibility to color the Kub the way you want for x amount of platinum for us how want a more personal coloring option. Add the possibility to pick what pettern you want for x amount of platinum for us how want a specific pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Think i may know where the genetics could go wrong. What if, even with two templates of the same kind, the original egg that is fully rng also counts in the gene domination battle... It would explain things and be a massive fail at the same time. The only ones who can confirm this from this point on is DE though The community could probably figure it out with enough cooperation and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkezuli Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) This thread honestly restored my faith in Warframe's Fanbase...I just hope DE sees the absurd in their decision while it's still Soon™. Edited July 21, 2014 by CenSilver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfen Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The community could probably figure it out with enough cooperation and effort. Yes and no really. If it would stabilize on a single select breed with proper(!) breeding with 2 of the same kind. Then yes. But if the results remain inconsistent even with those plates then its not like there is much you can exclude to see if that was the problem, like its not possible to remove the egg from the equation XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Yes and no really. If it would stabilize on a single select breed with proper(!) breeding with 2 of the same kind. Then yes. But if the results remain inconsistent even with those plates then its not like there is much you can exclude to see if that was the problem, like its not possible to remove the egg from the equation XD The Dark Souls community was able to figure out the convoluted mechanics behind that game's systems. I am confident that the WF community can figure out the puppy breeding mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts