Llyssa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Tried a run on Hieracon with today's new infested nerfs. Seems more in line now. Still might be hard for some people, but it's a fair deal better than last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 How? We're not talking about tying fire rate to ping or anything, we're talking about not screwing over solo players. The best example i can provide again is tied to mabinogi The archers complain about lag between the client and server causing them to miss and ask for a speed boost People who dont lag so much would get a free speed boost and tip the balance of ranged attack skills in a negative way Apply the same to WF and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 And yet there's low level dark sectors, and DE's definition of "endgame" has never included difficulty as the driving concept. I mean, Steve even said as much when he was outlining the three endgame systems to the council way back when. Endgame was framed as things for players to do beyond just grinding the starmap. As I just replied to Thelo, Steve specifically said endgame is "what happens at level cap". If experience, challenge and access to gear were not considered a part of endgame, why would level cap possibly matter? Anyway, exactly is your goal? Do you want the infested balanced/tweaked* so that they are challenging but fair, or do you want to just nerf them back to being the fire-and-forget faction? *spawn rate, ancient pull dynamics, toxic (possibly already addreseed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 "Hey guys, let's ignore all those players who can't effectively play in teams because connection issues and make infested punishingly difficult for solo players instead of fixing the connection issues first then balancing around the working-as-intended game." "Genius!" "And you know what else? Let's screw over people who choose to play solo as a matter of personal preference too!" "Double genius!" Seriously man, "just rely on teamwork" is a crappy argument in a game that allows solo play. It's a crappy argument in a game where there's no real effective means of communication beyond text chat and voip that nobody actually uses. It's a crappy argument in a game where you have no way of knowing if the pub you're joining is a well oiled team of awesomenauts who know what they're doing, or a gaggle of nublets who slot in fast hands and ammo drum on their latron. *WHOOOOSH* Way to miss the point... Just because for whatever reason DE can't yet fix the connection issues which only affect a minority of Warframe players, they shouldn't balance the game for those players in the mean time... I never claimed that people need to group up. I just suggested that the solo players you were talking about, that can't play some content, should learn to play. Yes that's a vague hint. I don't know what's the specific reason for specific players why they can't solo. I however play solo most of the time myself and I have no problems. Sure, it's harder than in a group, but everything is still very much doable solo. And wtf, the current healers are probably the best thing that's happened to Infested. Prioritize your targets, it's that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 *WHOOOOSH* Way to miss the point... Just because for whatever reason DE can't yet fix the connection issues which only affect a minority of Warframe players, they shouldn't balance the game for those players in the mean time... I never claimed that people need to group up. I just suggested that the solo players you were talking about, that can't play some content, should learn to play. Yes that's a vague hint. I don't know what's the specific reason for specific players why they can't solo. I however play solo most of the time myself and I have no problems. Sure, it's harder than in a group, but everything is still very much doable solo. And wtf, the current healers are probably the best thing that's happened to Infested. Prioritize your targets, it's that easy. Or they could, ya know, simply adjust the spawn/xp rates for matches that are marked 'MATCHMAKING:SOLO'. Since that's most of what it would take to balance content for that minority of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Or they could, ya know, simply adjust the spawn/xp rates for matches that are marked 'MATCHMAKING:SOLO'. Since that's most of what it would take to balance content for that minority of players. Solo players get the same xp per mob as in groups. No need for more. Just because solo is an option doesn't mean it has to be just as good option as a group... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arisaka Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Solo players get the same xp per mob as in groups. No need for more. Just because solo is an option doesn't mean it has to be just as good option as a group... I don't think solo players should be at a disadvantage at all. Plenty of co-op games have balanced solo play while still maintaining balanced progression, e.g. every ARPG game. (Torchlight, Diablo, etc.) In those games there is a difference, but not nearly to the extent that Warframe does. I don't actually know the specifics of how solo vs. group play works in ARPGs since I haven't played them all that much, but I know for a fact that I've never had a huge difficulty spike going from group to solo, or any noticeable decrease in XP gain. I know some people don't think Warframe can be compared to ARPGs in any reasonable capacity, but think again. They have more similarities than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Solo players get the same xp per mob as in groups. No need for more. Just because solo is an option doesn't mean it has to be just as good option as a group... Except the [DE]vs have said on multiple occasions that they want solo to be just as viable an option as a four man team. Probably because they acknowledge not everyone has an option in the matter. The simplest way to do this is to have a slight decrease in spawns and a slight increase in xp/drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Endgame doesn't tie to frame level (bc that's not how WF works), but it does tie to player/mastery level. Steve described it as "systemic replay at level cap". That phrase doesn't even make sense. First because I'm pretty sure Steve never meant anything that has to with Mastery. Second because Mastery is pointless past a certain point (rank 8 if you want Dragon nikana, and that's already way far enough), every one knows that Third because Dark Sectors themselves (the "farming nodes") are only a minor part of the design intent of Conflicts. They're just the carrot you're fighting over, while the fight himself is the "real" content (clans and social interactions). I already told you that too. RE: Spawns (again) Elite/Ancient spawn rates are not totally random, even when all mobs can spawn. From experience, you know that you see more heavies/ancients as time goes on (ex wave 30) than we do at wave 5. And that we don't get surrounded by Bombards in a level 20 non-endless mission, but we do in a lv 40. Then you clearly haven't played that much lvl 20 missions. It happens. Endless spawning is another spawning system entirely btw, but similarly broken. Well, from my experience anyway, cause no one really knows how it works but the devs. We've been given hints about it in various patch notes, but not the in-depth explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arabaxus Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I like how people bring up DE's idea of "endgame" when that is one of the biggest issues about Warframe, having no defined endgame. Everyone calls for nerfs to this and nerfs to that, especially when it comes to weapons, because of this issue. If we had defined tiers and an actual endgame, then some of these calls might actually be reasonable. But as it stands, endgame cannot be used as a reason for ridiculous Infested, because there is no defined endgame. Edited July 22, 2014 by Arabaxus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 False. I trained Mirage mostly solo on dark sector survivals. I slaughtered them even at low levels and once I was 30 I was a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 ... I know you love semantics, thelo...but what is your overall point? Endgame is supposed to be balanced for newbie accounts? Infested should go back to being a snooze fest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I like how people bring up DE's idea of "endgame" when that is one of the biggest issues about Warframe, having no defined endgame. Everyone calls for nerfs to this and nerfs to that, especially when it comes to weapons, because of this issue. If we had defined tiers and an actual endgame, then some of these calls might actually be reasonable. But as it stands, endgame cannot be used as a reason for ridiculous Infested, because there is no defined endgame. We don't have ridiculous infested, we only have ridiculous players that can't adapt to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 there is no defined endgame. Steve did his best to assign an actual definition to endgame in the Design Council forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burq Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 >mfw 5-forma viral-heat Ignis destroyed them all no problem Ember destroys them well enough too. With the substantial nerf of the mutalist ospreys, the whole aura deal the Anceints have seem to me is the only thing keeping the infested dangerous. You now NEED to target the ancients, punch through is now a necessity when dealing with infested, thou it always was, sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3ST Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) what anoyes me most with the infested now though, is that if u try to solo melee, higher lvl surv. DS missions, u are effed.. i literally get insta disrupted every 30 SECONDS!!! now, and thats not even mentioning the constant poison procs.. DE could we please get the disruption down to a fair level again? theres absolutly NO fun in playing against infected now when u cant even use your powers because u dont have any energy 90% of the time now.... Edited July 22, 2014 by D3ST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitzbach Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I LOVE the new infected now. Was a huge blast to fight them in ODS before the recent osprey changes. Was just leveling Brakk there as well cause at 20, it has a chance to drop a Forma blue print which I can use for rushing = forma at half price(and it drops void keys for rotation A as if the reward table was copied from T1 Survival) Had a huge blast. If you see an Ancient, you don't just run in and gun now. You quick look for the one with red glow and try to copter toward them to prevent knock back and blast their head away. At the same time, use your slide kick later to knock everything down and kill them. It's a lot more challenging that other factions survival where you can spend most of the time under cover and snipe. You can't with these. You can't just run in and gun either cause of the pulls. SotD was extremely useful. Equilibrium was awesome with all the health orb around that the Sentinel can pick because it lost some health. You really don't want the Sentinel dead because of its "Guardian" mod which constantly refresh your shield. If I wasn't aiming for that 20 minutes Forma drop + leveling Brakk, I could go for at least 35 or 40 minutes with a Boar prime clear them easily and even has fire proc to always set them on fire (panic cc) anyway. If it's doable with a Nekros, you can easily do it with over 80% of the frame in this game. Just don't treat Infecteds as your usual "Hold left and win" targets anymore. Edited July 22, 2014 by Zeitzbach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temfist Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I really like the new additions, though perhaps the numbers may need tweaking, only more time and test playing will tell. The most important thing is that the pacing of levels isn't ruined by the upscaled difficulty. If new players can't beat the lowest level infested mission available, then we might have more of a problem, but high level infested are supposed to be as hard as the other two factions at high level, so I was very satisfied when I died a few times doing the last part of Mirage's quest. I actually need to consider what mods and frame I use now when facing high level infested, something I never even considered before. Edited July 22, 2014 by Temphis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auramaru Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) I'm mastery 9... had a little trouble with infested... equipped penta. *CRISIS AVERTED* Edited July 22, 2014 by Auramau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khranitel Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hurrr shoot the healers first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) You wanna know how to trivialize infested? Stand on a high spot Youre welcome Edited July 22, 2014 by Azawarau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonious Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I know you love semantics, thelo...but what is your overall point? Endgame is supposed to be balanced for newbie accounts? Infested should go back to being a snooze fest? Steve's definition in that DC thread doesn't apply to dark sectors alone. It was an explanation for the features he was presenting. Which also include the Focus sytem and Factions. Actual definition, not really. Very vague and general design intent, more like. You seem to have read it by the letter tho. But it still has nothing to do with additional challenge or high end players in general. Nor do Dark sectors nodes in the end. And those nodes are still on a fairly higher level than normal nodes, aren't they? doesn't it count for additional challenge, compensating for xp bonuses? Cause for newbies it does. A few level of difference is the world when you don't have a large choice of weapons and frames at your disposal, or even adequate mods and the ressources needed to rank them up. And a deep understanding of the mechanics of the game... Now going more than 5 minutes (or wave 5) is gonna be literally impossible for them, when it was already difficult. For veterans with maxed out gear, sure, the additional challenge is (more or less) welcome. For the other end of the spectrum, it was not needed imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 You are probably going to sechura with crap weaponry if you think things are that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitzbach Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Anything ridiculous related to Infected has slowly been fix. Osprey was a huge issue in defense and was removed. Survival Osprey are no longer a huge issue. Now, the only remaining issues that I absolutely hate, are the BUGS. 1) Ancient hooks going through wall : You can dodge it because it has a projectile travel time. You can CC immune through it (Copter for example). If you get hit by it and still have some ammo left in your weapon, left click nonstop while aiming the head. You can shoot as you're about to stand up (Which also comes with its own CC immune for you to copter away or mash your panic button). The problem though? The ancients sometime shoots the hook THROUGH THE WALL. I actually got caught from this sometime and it's ridiculous. I don't really die from it but it's hella annoying you can get caught from something that is supposed to be block by a wall. 2) Volatile Runner and your sentinel : This is a very dumb bug and the only workaround I have with it so far is to use Oberon or Nekros because they can easily spawn health orb. Their explosion radius, when against sentinels, is about 10-15 m for no reason. It doesn't matter if you shoot them from far away, your sentinel will lose its shield. Kill enough and it loses its life. No sentinel? Annoying time to pick item, no shield refresh, etc. Having no carrier in Survival is a huge pain in the butt because there are so many stuffs on the ground and you are constantly running from the charger while also coptering to avoid the hook. 3) Survival having absolute POO spawn rate sometime : I can stand a room away from the spawn room and I won't get a single kill for over 15 seconds. It's dumb that an easy run could easily be forced to an end by 17 minutes even on a Nekros because the enemies refuse to spawn for you to kill. Survival in general cannot be enjoyed most of the time until this gets fixed. Fix those three and infected stages like ODS will be perfect to play on nonstop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3ST Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I havent seen a single other Tenno in this thread, complain about the 24/7 constant disruptions annoyance??am i seriously missing something regarding disruption, or dosent anybody use melee only, when fighting infested anymore??? *Edit, even when i use renged weapons, i STILL gets disrupted every 2 minutes, (because of the new auraes) no one else having this problem? seriously?? Edited July 23, 2014 by D3ST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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