When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[Niryco]

I think the real issue is just that every setup uses these mods which means weapons don't really have eight mod slots; they have seven.  Even if you made all the other mods better, Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point would still be used.  Yes, we'd combo Eagle Eye and Heavy Caliber - but we'd still keep Serration.

 

It's not that there aren't any other choices at all.  There are a lot of people who say that but I don't agree.  It's just that "Do I use Serration or not?" isn't a question anybody asks.  Moving the base damage boosts off of mods entirely and putting them into a weapon's rank (or a shooting stance/aura/something like many other have suggested) would alleviate this problem and would also just be a cool change to see.

 

Pushing damage to weapon ranks might cause equal unforeseeable problems, like weapons being horribly unbalanced or well no significant changes.

 

Because once all the damage mods have been push to the side, we still have 7 elemental mods, if not crit chance mods + crit damage mods, and even then damage types, if not damage types we still have split chamber, if not split chamber people would opt for increased fire rate as it logically boost DPS, etc etc.

 

Builds in general will always tend towards the most effective way of disposing an enemy, which is damage or improving the total damage that can be dished out. Accuracy/recoil mods or ammo mods hardly add to the equation, because even if your accuracy or recoil is much higher, people rather a one shot machine than a 5 shot weapon. Also ammo mods increases ammo mag, not the total ammo capacity, so in the end what players gain is only roughly..... 10 to 20 bullets which means hardly anything and it pathetic.

[Feallike]

 

 

 

 

I think the real issue is just that every setup uses these mods which means weapons don't really have eight mod slots; they have seven.  Even if you made all the other mods better, Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point would still be used.  Yes, we'd combo Eagle Eye and Heavy Caliber - but we'd still keep Serration.

 

It's not that there aren't any other choices at all.  There are a lot of people who say that but I don't agree.  It's just that "Do I use Serration or not?" isn't a question anybody asks.  Moving the base damage boosts off of mods entirely and putting them into a weapon's rank (or a shooting stance/aura/something like many other have suggested) would alleviate this problem and would also just be a cool change to see.

 

 

The only way to change it would be to turn Serration and Multishot into auras. That is litterally the only way.

 

Changing what they do wouldn't help much if they still increased your damage, damage+ upgrades in any game are first picked, no matter how you change multishot or Serration if they still increase your damage nothing is going to change.

 

Making them auras might help, but then Multishot would be useless since Serration is a bigger +damage, and HeavyC wouldn't be used because of the drawoff.

 

The only way to make Serration not required would to take away its damage+. Even then Multishot would still be required, and HeavyC.

 

This is not a easy process, there isn't a easy way to make Serration, HeavyC, and Mulitshot stay good without having them be required.

 

The DE if they even think about nerfing them would probably just make them useless.

 

By the way, those other serration type mods, will not help the process just make Serration more useful for each builds, just increasing Serrations standing in builds, Having serration+ 2x status chance will not change serrations standings at all.

 

 

edit: Another way is to just make Weapons gain those % ups per level. 5% would probably be the starting point. :/ Though that wouldn't change allot. Just get rid of 2 mods and just give each weapon inate Multishot, and Serration.

 

heavy C would still be around to so it would become the new Serration. X.x

 

editx2: Another way is to get rid of HeavyC, Serration, and Multishot and just nerf all enemy HP and Armor.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Feallike

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

I don't feel that removing them outright would be a solution.

• Too many people will have invested their time and effort into a legitimate gameplay feature, and while I agree it'd make a change, it seems a drastic step to take without looking at alternatives;
• Where do we draw the line? Do we then remove Speed Trigger since it also (indirectly) contributes to DPS? Streamline and Flow? Mods are purely numerical - taking away options to augment certain stats in the current modding and gearing system isn't a safe way to address concerns without considering every other mod and the relevance of their stats too.

I would suggest simply toning the modifiers down. We don't need a +165% damage mod in the system. As much as I hate myself for saying it, number-tweaking in this instance to lower the overwhelming effectiveness of Serration such that players would actually have to ask themselves whether putting in, say, Fast Hands instead of Serration would justify the DPR loss. The idea of those mods not having negative side effects isn't without merit either. But without a whole different perspective to modding and how it changes what really is a numbers game, I can't recommend outright removing them without further consideration.

 

Edit: Tenno'd with your suggestion about innate damage increase with level. Damnit, it's an idea I can get behind, but all the same, the mods could still exist, and I don't think I could ever treat them as a substitute though if we were to reconsider the bonus

 

Why not add Serration, Hornet Strike,Point Blank and Point Strike directly to the weapons? Seriously who doesn't use them!? Make the gun base damage increase each time you level your weapon.

 

 

Its not a high priority, Id rather get more events, lore, tile-sets, diverse enemy AI and balance fixes. After that DE can find time to address this. You can still get far with a good team without using these mods.

Edited August 12, 2014 by (PS4)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01

[Vastaren]

- snip -

No, lol, I meant how you used the word 'hope' 3 times in the same sentence :P

 

- snip -

That has somehow managed to miss the point of the OP and the subsequent discussion. Nowhere has anyone said anything about the multitude of possible builds. Confusing 'possible' and 'viable', though, is a mistake I'd like to point out before we go further. Are there 100+ (or whatever number) mods that can be fitted onto a rifle? Absolutely yes! Do any of them come close to having the effect on gameplay that Serration does? Absolutely not! My below points might address your concerns:

 

... the mod system isn't working as it should - namely, to augment gameplay in a way that doesn't detract from it. Intended or unintended, serration and such are mods which trivialise Warframe into a game of numbers...

... these mods are limiting build diversity by being so essential, yet so overpowered.

A false choice is an option that isn't really a choice at all, rather provokes a reflex judgement than careful consideration in either direction, would be my generalised and entirely too wordy definition... Serration, Hornet Strike, etc are false choices, as are Hush, Ammo Drum, etc. The mod system - and others - simply doesn't leave the player much room for careful consideration given the focus on numbers over gameplay.

 

My problem's with the fact that it's presented as a false choice to players. Who wouldn't take it? I totally understand where they're coming from, too. Because of this, it does limit the amount of options people can have with the 7 other slots (which adds up when we consider Split Chamber, Shred, etc)...

 

Edit: Tenno'd by your reply.

- snip -

The only way? Why would that be? +damage auras already exist in the form of Rifle Amp and Steel Charge. And it still doesn't change the fact that damage is what those auras are going to augment directly.

 

If we scaled Serration/Multishot to comparable levels to utility, or made them innate to each weapon, we would negate the existence of a false choice, allowing more utility-based builds to flourish. This doesn't necessarily require them to be made into aura mods, though if you would like to expand on this I'd be interested in how it turns out. Serration doesn't necessarily need to be negated by removing its one stat augment. Either scale it back such that it becomes less of a clear winner and more of a contending choice, make damage scale innately to weapon level, or include mod variety in the form of drawbacks like notionphil suggests, are the three options we're looking at.

 

Heavy Caliber, if also scaled down, would be a fair consideration as a direct damage mod. Giving the players the option of more damage or more accuracy, it'll - hopefully - divide them, and encourage diversity, which would - imo - be the best outcome that could be gained from this discussion.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Vastaren

[Alphafox]

Pushing damage to weapon ranks might cause equal unforeseeable problems, like weapons being horribly unbalanced or well no significant changes.

 

Because once all the damage mods have been push to the side, we still have 7 elemental mods, if not crit chance mods + crit damage mods, and even then damage types, if not damage types we still have split chamber, if not split chamber people would opt for increased fire rate as it logically boost DPS, etc etc.

 

Builds in general will always tend towards the most effective way of disposing an enemy, which is damage or improving the total damage that can be dished out. Accuracy/recoil mods or ammo mods hardly add to the equation, because even if your accuracy or recoil is much higher, people rather a one shot machine than a 5 shot weapon. Also ammo mods increases ammo mag, not the total ammo capacity, so in the end what players gain is only roughly..... 10 to 20 bullets which means hardly anything and it pathetic.

Of course people will opt for DPS 100% of the time. This is why I think it should be blended in the system because no matter what you will use those mods. Elemental mods is debatable because of the procs they can cause.

 

I agree with you when you say that builds tend to take the DPS option all of the time, and this is the problem. If everyone use them anyways why not add them directly to the weapons? This will free up a few mod slots and give access to move variety than we have right now.

[Alphafox]

Its not a high priority, Id rather get more events, lore, tile-sets, diverse enemy AI and balance fixes. After that DE can find time to address this. You can still get far with a good team without using these mods.

No. Just no. You don't go anywhere with a gun without Serration.

[Feallike]

Ok after thinking, there is a way to keep somewhat the damage of Serration while still having somewhat diversity.

 

We get rid of Serration and just buff all physical + damage mods.

 

if Slash + was 100% slash increase, then that would be the = of serration but still have different builds due to slash+ being useless on weapons that have 0 slash.

 

Multishot is just a lost cause, turning it into a aura is the only viable solution.

 

Heavy C could stay the way it is with a Buff to its -Accuracy to make it more devastating to some weapons.

 

ATM there is no way to nerf serration and make it fair. :/ You just have to get rid of it and give some mods to replace it.

 

We already have those Physical mods but no one uses them, they could just need a buff in there effect, and you have viable solutions to serration.

 

This won't change the fact that some builds will still require 1 of those mods, but it will change some weapons having totally different builds for each faction, or weapon type.

 

 

Not a huge step but a step in the right direction.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Feallike

[FrackingBiscuit]

Pushing damage to weapon ranks might cause equal unforeseeable problems, like weapons being horribly unbalanced or well no significant changes.

 

Because once all the damage mods have been push to the side, we still have 7 elemental mods, if not crit chance mods + crit damage mods, and even then damage types, if not damage types we still have split chamber, if not split chamber people would opt for increased fire rate as it logically boost DPS, etc etc.

 

Builds in general will always tend towards the most effective way of disposing an enemy, which is damage or improving the total damage that can be dished out. Accuracy/recoil mods or ammo mods hardly add to the equation, because even if your accuracy or recoil is much higher, people rather a one shot machine than a 5 shot weapon. Also ammo mods increases ammo mag, not the total ammo capacity, so in the end what players gain is only roughly..... 10 to 20 bullets which means hardly anything and it pathetic.

 

Agreed on most accounts.  I agree that we "tend twards the most effective way of disposing an enemy".  Everybody is always searching for how to get the most bang for their buck.  Builds are limited to how a weapon is statted rather than what mods do; if my weapon his high crit damage and crit multiplier, why shouldn't I build for crits?  Why put status chance mods on a weapon with 2.5% status chance?  But if a weapon has a high crit chance, good base damage, but a low crit modifier, there's no reason to attempt a "hybrid build".  I think the problem is more with weapon design than mods - and to be perfectly honest I don't actually think it's a real problem.  If you can pick up a mod and find a weapon for it, I think it's fine.  But yeah, there have been times I where I felt like I wasn't really making a choice - "Do I build my crit rifle for crits?" isn't really a question, either.

 

I don't quite agree that accuracy/recoil mods don't add anything - I think the problem is that there aren't weapons that have a need for them.  I've thrown Steady Hands on some high-recoil secondaries had noticed I was hitting more frequently with more accuracy, which naturally means my damage output was greater - but I've never thought "You know what would go good on this rifle?  Stabilizer."  So really I half agree/half disagree; the problem is once again with weapon design over mod design, and this time I really do think it's a problem.

 

Agreed on things like mag capacity mods; when I first started playing the natural assumption I had was that if my magazine capacity is X, then my max ammo would be X times a certain number of magazines.  When I realized my rifle would always have 520 spare ammo, I decided that having a mod that just let me expend my ammo faster wasn't worth it.  A fire rate mod would be better in that case; and for heavy weapons with spin-up time they seem to have an exponential effect on reaching your max RoF which makes them an actual viable mod for those weapons.  Then when I got ammo max mods and realized it's only 30% more ammo at maximum, I decided it would never be worth the mod space.  If mag capacity and max ammo were combined into a dual-stat mod, I think they'd be a lot more viable.  Until then Ammo Drum and Magazine Warp will be relegated to fusion fodder.

[Vastaren]

Its not a high priority, Id rather get more events, lore, tile-sets, diverse enemy AI and balance fixes. After that DE can find time to address this. You can still get far with a good team without using these mods.

Call me slow, but I'd say mod rebalancing... would be a balance fix :3

Edited August 12, 2014 by Vastaren

[Niryco]

Of course people will opt for DPS 100% of the time. This is why I think it should be blended in the system because no matter what you will use those mods. Elemental mods is debatable because of the procs they can cause.

 

I agree with you when you say that builds tend to take the DPS option all of the time, and this is the problem. If everyone use them anyways why not add them directly to the weapons? This will free up a few mod slots and give access to move variety than we have right now.

The problem is that once we free up all dps mods, builds will be all about utility and people would still aim to maximize DPS with utility which becomes absurd. Unless utility mods doesn't incur any damage increase, than there will be mod diversification, or if compared to my existing upgrade tree system, all upgrades incur different damage increases, to normalize the idea of damage increase and therefore focus on the aspect of additional benefits gained on top of these damage increases.

 

Ok after thinking, there is a way to keep somewhat the damage of Serration while still having somewhat diversity.

 

We get rid of Serration and just buff all physical + damage mods.

 

if Slash + was 100% slash increase, then that would be the = of serration but still have different builds due to slash+ being useless on weapons that have 0 slash.

 

Multishot is just a lost cause, turning it into a aura is the only viable solution.

 

Heavy C could stay the way it is with a Buff to its -Accuracy to make it more devastating to some weapons.

 

ATM there is no way to nerf serration and make it fair. :/ You just have to get rid of it and give some mods to replace it.

 

We already have those Physical mods but no one uses them, they could just need a buff in there effect, and you have viable solutions to serration.

 

This won't change the fact that some builds will still require 1 of those mods, but it will change some weapons having totally different builds for each faction, or weapon type.

 

 

Not a huge step but a step in the right direction.

Similar to my upgrade tree system, all active upgrades to make utility mods useful is to incur damage increases of different scale and allow for separate modifiers to enhance these damage increases, but balancing it against a certain level of mobs which therefore won't trivialize content. This is similar to what you suggest that damage mods should have their damage redistributed so that people mainly focus on the benefits gain from these mods above the need or consideration of damage. In that sense players think of the playstyle differentiation rather than damage outcome as it is mostly similar since it is normalized to a certain level content in general.

 

However another way is to remove all ways to change damage, and include mods that simply change gameplay to ones favour.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Jacate

[PookieNumnums]

i feel removing them is a bad idea. what are we gonna do without them? amma and fire rate mods? please. i like the way they are. so many players say dont add mod slots.. removing the staple mods is essentially the same thing. also some players play in areas they need the dmg boosts op. also, legendary core would be a redundant return on our current mods because the mods in question are qhat wed be using them on. there arent enough kubrow mods to absorb all the Lcores id get not to mention mine are ranked.   

 

my solution is mod hybridization terminals for mr 6 or higher players. let us combine two mods to create custom dual stat mods 

[cesmode]

I agree that mods like serration and hornet strike are automatics for any weapon.  Redirection is not....valkyr gets more out of steel fiber(or whatever the armor boosting mod is) than redirection.

 

However, if mods like serration and hornet strike are removed...I want all of my credits back and all of the fusion cores back.  All of them.  And I would want it back when the change goes live, not a "We removed serration and are going to be looking into compensating those of you that leveled up these mods".  And some people don't have a fully maxed serration, maybe 2 or 3 from the top but still deserve their own equal compensation.

 

Personally, I think we are too far into it to remove these mods.  Maybe create a weapon aura and put these mods in there, one for primary and secondary, so that we have a freed up slot?

[Alphafox]

i feel removing them is a bad idea. what are we gonna do without them? amma and fire rate mods? please. i like the way they are. so many players say dont add mod slots.. removing the staple mods is essentially the same thing. also some players play in areas they need the dmg boosts op. also, legendary core would be a redundant return on our current mods because the mods in question are qhat wed be using them on. there arent enough kubrow mods to absorb all the Lcores id get not to mention mine are ranked.   

 

my solution is mod hybridization terminals for mr 6 or higher players. let us combine two mods to create custom dual stat mods 

This is exactly why i said that they should be added as a stat when you level up a weapon (ex. +10% dmg per levels) 

Legendary cores is just one way to compensate i'm sure DE can find other ways. 

 

I agree that mods like serration and hornet strike are automatics for any weapon.  Redirection is not....valkyr gets more out of steel fiber(or whatever the armor boosting mod is) than redirection.

 

However, if mods like serration and hornet strike are removed...I want all of my credits back and all of the fusion cores back.  All of them.  And I would want it back when the change goes live, not a "We removed serration and are going to be looking into compensating those of you that leveled up these mods".  And some people don't have a fully maxed serration, maybe 2 or 3 from the top but still deserve their own equal compensation.

 

Personally, I think we are too far into it to remove these mods.  Maybe create a weapon aura and put these mods in there, one for primary and secondary, so that we have a freed up slot?

Of course we we would get a compensation for it. Saying that we are too deep in something wrong to transform it in something good is not the way to go.

[Xana69]

learn to program and go to work For them... Stop whining !!!!!!!!

[Alphafox]

learn to program and go to work For them... Stop whining !!!!!!!!

Not a solution at all. No one is whining here. The next time you post please try to be constructive?

[(PSN)BREI_BROSKEY27]

honestly this game is mainly pve. if people want to use these mods let them. it effects you in no way. in the case of conclave they should have it like dark sectors to be perfectly honest where you get mods/ rank up mods based on how your doing(i dont know if this is actually how DS work on pc just based on what i've heard and watched so if im off a little give me a break it's not on ps4 yet) but it should be played like this in conclave. Unbalances in the pvp side of the game, the minority side, should not be brought over to pve, the majority side. idk why i just went on that tangent but with what you said about it not bringing variety to builds. who cares they are not your builds what does it matter to you ,and if you say they dont bring variety then make your own 

 

edit1: adding on to the end i meant make your own variety in your builds. dont remove mods because it leaves no variety in other's builds. its theres to make not you

Edited August 12, 2014 by (PS4)BREI_BROSKEY27

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

Call me slow, but I'd say mod rebalancing... would be a balance fix :3

 

Yea my bad. in that order though, I mean yea things need a rework and improvement but as an investor and veteran player, I think Id rather have content for the next three months rather than nothing and very small changes.

[SeanRubin]

I think they already did remove the Redirection mod. 

 

When I first started playing Warframe four weeks ago, I made a mistake while trying to fuse it to increase it's power which caused it to be totally lost. I have spent the past four weeks trying to get another one, but no matter what, none of the enemies are dropping it. So I guess it's been removed.

 

I wish it was still around. I really want that one.

Edited August 12, 2014 by SeanRubin

[Tsukinoki]

@SeanRubin
Just go into any decently leveled grineer mission and start killing "Elite Lancers"(all three variants work).  Redirection still drops like candy for me.

[SeanRubin]

@SeanRubin

Just go into any decently leveled grineer mission and start killing "Elite Lancers"(all three variants work).  Redirection still drops like candy for me.

 

I have. But their still not dropping Redirection.

 

Do you by any chance have a spare copy?

 

If so, I can give you 75 Platinum for it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by SeanRubin

[sorq]

From what i read from OP, the question is simply whether to increase mod slots for more utility / trade-off mods. 
That'll solve your problems instead of removing said serration, blah blah.. 

Edit: and DE getting bashed by players who ranked up their serration, blah blah... to rank 10. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by sorq

[Tiqalicious]

honestly this game is mainly pve. if people want to use these mods let them. it effects you in no way. in the case of conclave they should have it like dark sectors to be perfectly honest where you get mods/ rank up mods based on how your doing(i dont know if this is actually how DS work on pc just based on what i've heard and watched so if im off a little give me a break it's not on ps4 yet) but it should be played like this in conclave. Unbalances in the pvp side of the game, the minority side, should not be brought over to pve, the majority side. idk why i just went on that tangent but with what you said about it not bringing variety to builds. who cares they are not your builds what does it matter to you ,and if you say they dont bring variety then make your own 

 

edit1: adding on to the end i meant make your own variety in your builds. dont remove mods because it leaves no variety in other's builds. its theres to make not you

So because the game is PvE we shouldn't every give critical feedback on it and try to make the game better?

Good lord.

[Arabaxus]

This thread is R tard ed. If the weapons and frames are to op try going past wave 20 with no damage mods. You whiners already took my penta and ogris down, really 20 ammo stock. I think most of the. Warframe players who want serration,etc gone should play something else.

 

I have no problem with any of the mods. Seems mostly people who can't or don't have them maxed are the ones whining.

 

See I didn't want to say these things but it seems I'm not the only one that believes this.

 

Also the arguments about Redirection and Vitality make no sense. There are only a few frames where any of those are worth placing on;

 

Rhino - Redirection, maybe Vitality

Valkyr - Vitality + Steel Fiber

Hydroid, Zephyr, Trinity? - Redirection

 

Honestly, many Warframes, Loki, Vauban, Mirage, Ember, etc. would benefit more from Quick Thinking than Redirection.

 

Meanwhile, I see these complaints about Redirection, Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, etc., but I don't see anyone complaining about Flow, which IMO is used way more than Redirection or Vitality in Warframes. Is it because Flow doesn't have 10 ranks, so it's much easier to rank up and thus the proponents of this argument just to happened to forget about Flow? 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Arabaxus

[cesmode]

Saying that we are too deep in something wrong to transform it in something good is not the way to go.

 

True, its not ideal...but if every developer said those words, then we might actually have more games that we enjoy out there.  

 

Example: I like GW2, it is my type of MMO.  Loved the launch, loved it until they released ascended gear and then focused their development on living story.  They are too invested in these areas to stop now.  I wish they would say to themselves "Well its never too late to stop this and go in a different direction to undue it all".  But they wont.  Too much time and money.

 

Changing up some mods is less extreme of an example, I agree.  Maybe there are other factors that are out there that we haven't thought of that the devs have, which is why they havent done this yet because this has been mentioned a lot, especially in live streams where they said they are not changing this.

[cesmode]

 

 

Meanwhile, I see these complaints about Redirection, Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, etc., but I don't see anyone complaining about Flow, which IMO is used way more than Redirection or Vitality in Warframes. Is it because Flow doesn't have 10 ranks, so it's much easier to rank up and thus the proponents of this argument just to happened to forget about Flow? 

 

But flow is not an automatic choice for every frame.  

 

I agree with your points about redirection, steel fiber, etc...totally agree.  Some frames benefit from one more than the other.

 

But I think we have to narrow this discussion to the automatic choices in serration and hornet strike, etc.  They are automatics for any weapon.  Flow is not automatic for all frames.  They are possibly automatics for "caster" dps frames...I wouldn't put flow on Rhino.