When Serration,hornet Strike And Multishot Will Be Finally Removed Or Revamped?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Not sure if this has been a part of the discussion on "core mods" here, but these mods don't have to be removed or built-into weapons to improve build diversity.

 

Another simple fix is to make different variants of each core mod (ex: 4 types of Serration) that all have different secondary effects that relate to playstyle, and varied base damage.

 

EX:

 

Serration: +165% damage

Insidious Serration: +100% damage, +100% damage on weak spot hits

etc...

 

From: Forget Skill Trees, We Need Better Mods  Apologies if it has already been mentioned, didn't read everything and in a bit of a rush :)

 

What do you think of my post on mod changes (a couple posts above yours)? You tend to point things out in your topics that I overlooked.

[notionphil]

What do you think of my post on mod changes (a couple posts above yours)? You tend to point things out in your topics that I overlooked.

 

Please don't take this personally, because I've seen a number of good concepts from you, seriously :)

 

Without actual numerical details on any new mod values, It's impossible to guess whether your idea would promote or reduce build diversity. Sure, we might all end up using 2 ammo mods, but only because they're clearly the best 2 mods for that slot. What's the difference in that?

 

Basically, your concept is to divide mods into new slot categories, where only X of each type of mod can be equipped in each slot. Sounds fine until you think of what is required.

 

Every single weapon is going to do drastically different damage than it does currently. Crit weapons will now be nerfed as you cant use serration with both crit damage and chance. Elemental stacking will be gone. Is this bad? No, it just requires a ton of rebalance. A ton of rebalance, however, is bad.

 

Every mod will need new values, as there will still be a clear winner in most slots unless you rebalance, exactly as we have now. Why use Split Chamber when you can use Serration and get more damage? Without a rebalance, there will still be a single "correct" build for each weapon.

 

Same problem we have right now but DE will have done tons of work to get back to square 1.

 

It's easy to say "lets divide mods into 4 categories". The hard part is coming up with values for the 200 mods which are less unbalanced than they are right now. So, I'd love to see the actual values.

[grillv20]

Serration and multishot I understand but why redirection and vitality?

 

because they're traits that are already present on warframes. they're essentially mods that take up space where you can actually have health and shield level up with the frame instead. its the same concept...

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Please don't take this personally, because I've seen a number of good concepts from you, seriously :)

 

Without actual numerical details on any new mod values, It's impossible to guess whether your idea would promote or reduce build diversity. Sure, we might all end up using 2 ammo mods, but only because they're clearly the best 2 mods for that slot. What's the difference in that?

 

Basically, your concept is to divide mods into new slot categories, where only X of each type of mod can be equipped in each slot. Sounds fine until you think of what is required.

 

Every single weapon is going to do drastically different damage than it does currently. Crit weapons will now be nerfed as you cant use serration with both crit damage and chance. Elemental stacking will be gone. Is this bad? No, it just requires a ton of rebalance. A ton of rebalance, however, is bad.

 

Every mod will need new values, as there will still be a clear winner in most slots unless you rebalance, exactly as we have now. Why use Split Chamber when you can use Serration and get more damage? Without a rebalance, there will still be a single "correct" build for each weapon.

 

Same problem we have right now but DE will have done tons of work to get back to square 1.

 

It's easy to say "lets divide mods into 4 categories". The hard part is coming up with values for the 200 mods which are less unbalanced than they are right now. So, I'd love to see the actual values.

 

I wouldn't have asked for your input if I only wanted you to say you loved it, so you don't have to apologize for it. I'm not going to run through every mod, but for some examples:

 

Serration would have a max value of 20% damage. Split Chamber would only have a 15% increase, but because of the nature of multishot that would be an increase for damage and status chance, making it more valuable to some people on a weapon like the Amprex. Max critical chance increase would be 75%, so for some weapons it would clearly be better than Serration (Dread) while with other weapons it wouldn't be worthwhile, and with some like the Soma the choice wouldn't be so clear. Speed Trigger would give a 30% increase, so players could decide if higher DPS is worth a decrease in ammo efficiency. Also, people would have to decide if any of those are better than equipping an elemental mod (in this system, the current combination elements would become single-mod elements, and would convert a percentage of the damage to elemental damage instead of adding any) or Metal Auger rounds (+2.0 Punch Through).

 

Moreover, there might be a single correct option for some weapons, but there wouldn't be four correct options (Serration, Split Chamber, and two status mods) like there are now. Some people would find a 50% reload speed reduction (max new Speed Trigger) more helpful than a 50% magazine capacity increase (Magazine Warp). Others might decide they would rather have a 75% recoil reduction (Stabilizer). The main point of splitting the mods up into four categories is that it limits damage mod stacking. And when combined with removed enemy health scaling, I think it would be less difficult for DE to change a mod value if it didn't work, because now they wouldn't be torn between making it valuable for level 70 and not making it overkill for level 10. If DE just rebalanced with the current system, players would still just use their highest damage mods, so two to four slots would still be taken.

 

I forgot to mention it in my first post, but I'm torn between making the duel-stat mods Auras or just getting rid of them and repaying players with something else. I'd remove Corrupted mods.

[DeadX65]

snip cause that was a huge text wall :p

 

diversity is covered. you don't have to use those mods, as i stated, further, changing the whole system as many want...is NOT AN EASY PROCESS. everything would have to be re-balanced. think damage 2.0 was initially a fustercluck? or melee 2.0? mods 2.0 wil be as bad or worse. with no appreciable gains for the headache.

 

as others have pointed out no matter how you mess with the mod system, however many cute ideas you come up with for diversity, that diversity is always an illusion unless you make an active choice to gimp yourself.

 

the game is about damage and to a lesser extent survival. and that is what makes diversity an illusion. best builds will always be high damage for weapons, and for frames, skill abilities and defensive focus. to do otherwise is counter productive.

 

i don't get why that is so difficult to understand. it's a standard in every game that has combat against enemies. you play to win, or you lose. there's no middle ground. you build your character to fight well, and survive.

 

and believe me, i know about counter intuitive builds, i love the radiation proc, so nearly every weapon i have has it. it's not optimal for all factions but i like it it's hilarious when rioting starts from multiple rad procs

Edited August 13, 2014 by DeadX65

[NikolaiLev]

Unfortunately, probably never.  DE doesn't want the grind associated with these mods to go away.

 

I'd love for a modding system free of mods that give DPS, so modding was actually a matter of choice and playstyle.  But that's not what DE wants.

[-Praxa-]

I don't see any reason for them to be removed or revamped. If you think you have 6 mod choices instead of 8, well everyone has 6 choices then, you are not missing anything. I don't thing having more mod slots make warframe more fun, just changes it. And that kind of change comes with lots of balance issues. Not really necessary.

[Innocent_Flower]

There's always some arse who doesn't want these nerfed or removed because they worked hard for them .

 

Honestly; Such people should be disregarded. It's beta and they're the antithesis to progression.  

 

If they're nerfed and you worked hard to level them up: you've still got high ranking mods. 

 

If they're removed and you worked hard to level them up... you'l probably get compensation. be it legendary cores or credits and cores equal to the value of what you lost. 

 

I myself have spent hundreds of thousands of credits on these mods. I don't see a problem with intelligent changes to the system. 

 

There's no reason to keep them as they are now. They split the community between "S#&$ tier" and "godlike". They remove the sense of choice. They remove skill from the game. 

[Freeburn_Sage]

I feel like this isn't the solution. Simply removing these mods would last for all of a couple days until they are replaced with something else. Way I see it, if you remove these mods, a dual elemental combination would just take their place, and then that would become mandatory. We need not the removal of certain mods, but the alteration of all mods. Bring them to the same level, make them something worth thinking about and weighing. Not something that you can just look at and instantly know you need. 

[Ashnal]

diversity is covered. you don't have to use those mods, as i stated, further, changing the whole system as many want...is NOT AN EASY PROCESS. everything would have to be re-balanced. think damage 2.0 was initially a fustercluck? or melee 2.0? mods 2.0 wil be as bad or worse. with no appreciable gains for the headache.

 

as others have pointed out no matter how you mess with the mod system, however many cute ideas you come up with for diversity, that diversity is always an illusion unless you make an active choice to gimp yourself.

 

the game is about damage and to a lesser extent survival. and that is what makes diversity an illusion. best builds will always be high damage for weapons, and for frames, skill abilities and defensive focus. to do otherwise is counter productive.

 

i don't get why that is so difficult to understand. it's a standard in every game that has combat against enemies. you play to win, or you lose. there's no middle ground. you build your character to fight well, and survive.

 

and believe me, i know about counter intuitive builds, i love the radiation proc, so nearly every weapon i have has it. it's not optimal for all factions but i like it it's hilarious when rioting starts from multiple rad procs

I think you either did not read the entire post, and picked a few statements out of context, or didn't understand the overall message I was getting at. I'll summarize it for you.

 

I was basically agreeing with you about how mathematical systems like the modding system always have an optimal solution that rebalancing or removing a few mods will never solve. I then explored a few options in redesigning the system, stating that they weren't very viable as they would undermine warframe's progression system. I ended with a conclusion that said I was perfectly okay with the system as a power up system, not a customization one.

 

I suggest you give it another look over.

[Omnimorph]

As a newbie looking in, my 2c is that it ought to be the case with any build system that you can min-max and enhance the things your Warframe is already particularly good at, or you can "round out" and enhance the things it's not so good at, and both approaches ought to be valuable, except min-maxing ought to be slightly more powerful, while "rounding" ought to be slightly more fun.  Is that not how it works in this game?

 

If anything, I'd say they just need to make several more damage type mods, i.e. make Serration enhance the Slash component only, another new mod enhances the Puncture component only, etc., etc.  But I suppose that may be too much work for them?

 

Other, "Hasten" type mods are always borderline OP since they apply to all damage types, but they have to be in there, just be balanced.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Omnimorph

[izzatuw]

There's always some arse who doesn't want these nerfed or removed because they worked hard for them .

 

Honestly; Such people should be disregarded. It's beta and they're the antithesis to progression.  

 

If they're nerfed and you worked hard to level them up: you've still got high ranking mods. 

 

If they're removed and you worked hard to level them up... you'l probably get compensation. be it legendary cores or credits and cores equal to the value of what you lost. 

 

I myself have spent hundreds of thousands of credits on these mods. I don't see a problem with intelligent changes to the system. 

 

There's no reason to keep them as they are now. They split the community between "S#&$ tier" and "godlike". They remove the sense of choice. They remove skill from the game.

But what skill is required in the game, I mean parkour still feels clunky for fast frames because they just dash off before they can even touch the next wall.

Melee requires you to farm for a stance instead of actually learning them and still doing combos is a waste of time for weapons like Ichors.

What skill is required to press LMB? Than everyone would use Bows wouldn't they? I mean they could just crit all the time right?

There really requires no skill in this game since most things are mod dependent and not part of core gameplay.

[fatpig84]

Ive said put these automatic damage mods(serration, hornet strike, etc) into an aura slot on the weapon...free up the spot.  No need to refund anything.

 

Giving guns even more points ?

Dude that is a bad call.

 

Guns are already by far the hardest hitters for most arsenals.

[Vastaren]

Or just flat-out remove scaling. Higher levels would have higher numbers of heavies, elites would take a little more damage over the normal varieties than they currently do. And maybe some more creative enemy designs and weaknesses would help too.

That would certainly be interesting, but I feel there would optimally be a balance between damage numbers and gameplay skill. One or the other as a single choice won't necessarily do much for Warframe, which does have a progression system after all. Letting people look at 'level 30' enemies as opposed to the same few they saw on Mercury, just with more elite units, would - I imagine - get a bit dull and just as unrewarding, assuming we're considering removing scaling entirely. What then do we base progression on? What would distinguish early and endgame?

 

However, I'm all for 'varieties' and 'creative' enemy designs. I totally agree that the emphasis on numerical scaling in many aspects of Warframe is a bit much, and should be toned down - Avalanche Offensive being a prime example of how unfulfilling simply adding a 'zero' onto enemy damage is.

 

- snip -

Nur, I think they have a decent point to make about time and effort. Compensation wouldn't be ideal in any circumstance, and basing their reservations off the fact that they have actually invested in such things is a fair foundation. Maybe not something I'd agree with, but to disregard their point on the basis that 'I can deal with it, why can't you?' seems a bit too much like what they're saying against the arguments for balance.

 

I don't agree with them, definitely. In fact, this explicitly mentions that things may change. If those things come from our feedback as players who have a strong case to make in the interests of long-term game stability, then Hek, all the better for it. All the same, they do raise a valid but offtopic point about compensation, even if it doesn't invalidate or necessarily address the OP's concerns. I wouldn't discount that consideration entirely, even though it's outside the scope of this thread.

 

- snip -

Oh, we're (I'm?) not against min-maxing and building for situational viability - as if there's *that* much in rng/grind-dependent endgame anyway (but I'll let you cross that bridge when you get to it :P). It's just that Serration in its current form is a no-brainer, and limits the diversity when it clearly is a non-consideration for putting onto weapons. Like I said, "weapons, by definition, do damage, and hence, by necessity, require Serration [or mods like Serration]". This is true for all of them, and this false choice is something we aim to remove.

 

But what skill is required in the game, I mean parkour still feels clunky for fast frames because they just dash off before they can even touch the next wall.

Melee requires you to farm for a stance instead of actually learning them and still doing combos is a waste of time for weapons like Ichors.

What skill is required to press LMB? Than everyone would use Bows wouldn't they? I mean they could just crit all the time right?

There really requires no skill in this game since most things are mod dependent and not part of core gameplay.

Is that an argument for or against the suggestion? I completely agree that most things rely on modding and gearing over gameplay, and... wouldn't a suggestion such as this move us away from that by opening up more choices to diversify? Or is this a bit beyond the scope of the thread and going into other core design issues?

 

Either way, I don't think you're wrong, but the 'oh, the system's stuffed anyway, where's the point' vibe I'm getting makes me sad. Less emphasis on gearing and modding would ideally be compensated for by more skill - see my point about dps-tanking in lieu of actual squad mechanics earlier in this thread (I can't find it, but maybe you'll be able to).

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That would certainly be interesting, but I feel there would optimally be a balance between damage numbers and gameplay skill. One or the other as a single choice won't necessarily do much for Warframe, which does have a progression system after all. Letting people look at 'level 30' enemies as opposed to the same few they saw on Mercury, just with more elite units, would - I imagine - get a bit dull and just as unrewarding, assuming we're considering removing scaling entirely. What then do we base progression on? What would distinguish early and endgame?

 

However, I'm all for 'varieties' and 'creative' enemy designs. I totally agree that the emphasis on numerical scaling in many aspects of Warframe is a bit much, and should be toned down - Avalanche Offensive being a prime example of how unfulfilling simply adding a 'zero' onto enemy damage is.

 

Enemy difficulty would be based on different factors besides health. Early level enemies would deal less damage (although not as pronounced of a difference as in the current game), be less accurate, have more telegraphed attacks and slower reaction times. Also, there would be very few enemy types in early planets, and more difficult types would be added as the player got deeper into the Solar System. That would be very dependent on enemy design to feel rewarding, but I think it's doable. The idea would be that players in Ceres would need more skill to survive than players on Mars, and that skill would be closer to equal to mods in terms of importance for players.

[-S--Nightmaric]

look buddy i disagree on your ideas i think that mod slots should be higher much more i think DE wont allow us to have crazy builds because of those 8 slots i think it should be 12 slots for modding your weapon

[grillv20]

look buddy i disagree on your ideas i think that mod slots should be higher much more i think DE wont allow us to have crazy builds because of those 8 slots i think it should be 12 slots for modding your weapon

 

equipping a bunch of mods does not equal out to having a "crazy build" 

Edited August 14, 2014 by grillv20

[dddeath]

they should add another slot where you can put "useless" mods in. magazine capacity, reload, ammo drum, recoil and other similar mods that rarely if ever gets used.

 

nobody would be putting ammo drum on anyway if they added maxed serration to the base damage. so yeah i think it would be cool if there was like a weapon mechanics slot.

[Innocent_Flower]

No, They should make all mods equaly valuable 

 

It should be perfectly viable for someone to not build for damage, but rather build for ammo. Bigger mag. More ammo. More ammo collected. Faster rate of fire. Until that's fixed, game is broke. 

[cesmode]

 

No, They should make all mods equaly valuable 

 

It should be perfectly viable for someone to not build for damage, but rather build for ammo. Bigger mag. More ammo. More ammo collected. Faster rate of fire. Until that's fixed, game is broke. 

 

At one point I did this for my wraith twin vipers. larger mag capacity...was kind of ok but Im sure I had dps loss

[cesmode]

 

If they were made "auras" with only one active at a time then DE would have to scale down all the enemies accordingly so the challenge remains the same. Self explanatory.

 

If all the stuff like Serration/Split Chamber/Speed Trigger would be removed entirely... it would mean pretty much the same: Enemies need to be scaled down.

 

 

No matter which idea/proposal we would pursue if any at all the enemies would need to be scaled a bit to reflect the changes.

 

And thats fine. Its called tweaking and every dev worth their spit does it. The idea is getting away from automatic choices...automatic choices in warframes for different gameplay(*cough, nekros for survival), weapon choices, ability choices, mod choices,etc..

Variety is the spice of life and it extends into this game as well

[cesmode]

 

Someone already linked your thread in one of the post! Really a good idea too.

 

Very cool idea. But one would thnk you choose your insidious mod over regular if youre sniping...no? Wouldn't folks that snipe fall into an automatic choice?

Obviously the mod benefits are up for debate...just using yours as an example.

Same can be true if it was insidious: 100% dmg 100% crit damage. Id definately choose this on my soma over regular serration.

Damn website is junking out on my right now.

Edited August 14, 2014 by cesmode

[Trajhenkhetlive]

Well one way DE could go is to allow players to add slots. I like the idea of a mod redo, but if that can't or won't happen, DE should consider allowing palyers to add slots to gear.

[cesmode]

 

Well one way DE could go is to allow players to add slots. I like the idea of a mod redo, but if that can't or won't happen, DE should consider allowing palyers to add slots to gear.

 

What about player created mods? Combine two and get a mesh...serration + point strike = 133% dmg and 75% crit or whatever...the numbers are randomly generated maybe?

[Trajhenkhetlive]

   

What about player created mods? Combine two and get a mesh...serration + point strike = 133% dmg and 75% crit or whatever...the numbers are randomly generated maybe?

 

Sounds intriguing, not sure about the random number. There would be a lot of complaining about the high end low end. (low end being they got the bad end of the stick and the high end making the game basically easy). When I used to play D&D we ran into this problem with the old strength percentile stat. Basically after rolling an 18 for strength, you'd get to roll a second time on percentile dice which would determine carry ability, damage, and to hit modifiers (the higher the roll the better the stats). Most people hit the bottom end or quarter mid top percentile. Above that the stat got game breaking. Eventually we just had a fixed score for all 18 strengths rolled (everyone with an 18 in Strength had the same carry, damage, and to hit bonus). Not saying this would happen exactly in Warframe but then you'll have developers designing challenges for the high end guys, now things might get not so good.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Trajhenkhetlive