Ash Needs Some Loving.

[Naxza]

I picked up Ash recently, and I'm kinda sorta confused. It has lots of health (on a stealth character?), slower speed than Loki (again, stealth?), a first ability that's wildly inaccurate (I often miss enemies with the shuriken at just ten feet, and you can almost forget about aiming for headshots. Silent weapon? Pfft.), a stealth that doesn't stop damage like Loki's does, a teleport with less freedom and more danger than Loki's (switching enemies out of place or using your decoy to teleport anywhere against just teleporting to a target), and above all, two V polarity slots.

V polarity slots work with only two mods- Warframe ability duration (only useful for smoke screen) and ability damage, which might be useful if you could actually HIT things with one of your two damage abilities. No speed, no stamina, no energy storage, no defense... Even two - polarity slots would make a whole lot more sense.

So really, I ask- what's going on with Ash? If it's supposed to be a melee warframe, make it so. If it's supposed to do stealth, do that. At the moment, most of its kit does not make sense. Can we think of some ways to make this warframe fit?

[Eidolus]

I've found great use of my Ash as a slightly tankier stealth combatant. The ability to sneak where you need to but still defend yourself well if things get out of hand is what I've learned to appreciate from that particular frame.

 

The shuriken is excellent when it behaves, but there is a bug that makes

it haywire on the throw sometimes, but it isn't as bad as you make it out

to be, I still find it to be a life-saver even beyond forty or so guesstimated feet. The ability to throw them somewhat quickly aids in that goal aswell.

 

The teleport is set up to be used offensively as well,

I personally use it so I can get up close with my scindo on the choicy targets in a room.

The smokescreen is odd at times and needs to be upgraded for any real use (for me atleast) but it does the job, and it dazes enemies for a short enough period for me to get a great swing in.

 

Bladestorm is invaluble aswell for when things get rough in a room, especially during solo missions. It is however quite buggy, expect to be teleporting into staircases and the like as you poke people with whatever weapon you have equipped as your melee. It can feel slow sometimes aswell, but the damage it does is direct.

 

I do own a Loki as well, as it was my first 'Frame. I wouldn't say one is better than the other whatsoever either.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Eidolus

[Venarge]

I love my ash <3

He might not be a Loki, but hes my mainframe :3

[Toddwjp]

How to play ash, teleport into groups of mobs, pop smoke screen, melee murder evrything,

Option 2 blade storm murder everyone

Option 3 teleport in pop smoke screen and blast every thing with a shot gun, use those 12 seconds of stealth wisely.

[Venarge]

How to play ash, teleport into groups of mobs, pop smoke screen, melee murder evrything,

Option 2 blade storm murder everyone

Option 3 teleport in pop smoke screen and blast every thing with a shot gun, use those 12 seconds of stealth wisely.

 

Thats my boy ;)

[Balo]

Ash is probably weaker overall than Loki, but not without use.

 

Shuriken: okay this ability is a bit of a joke, it's fun for when I do alerts for extra credits and the enemies are a lower level so it one shots them in the body. Definitely could use an improvement (say being perfectly accurate, traveling a bit faster and DRASTICALLY reducing it's cost [most single-target damage abilities should have their costs reduced to 5-15])

 

Smoke bomb: For pure invisibility's sake it's weaker than Loki. In higher level missions it's useful for your team to stun in a massive area. You're completely invulnerable during the cast animation, and invulnerable to non-aoe abilities during it. (Is Loki really completely invincible during his invis? Even to shockwave MOAs and Lech Kril's hammer strikes?)

 

Teleport: Useful for moving around, could afford to somehow guarantee you don't get smacked by the enemy you teleport to, not that that usually matters. Cheaper than decoy + teleport, doesn't awkwardly leave an enemy behind if you choose to swap it.

 

Blade storm: Decent, not great. Gives you a chance to regen shields. I like being able to use it at a great distance, most other frames have to walk into the middle of the enemies to use their ults. Ash can stand on a balcony a mile away and Slash em. Also since you pickup drops during your slashes I usually end up with enough mana to do it again, with enough left over after the second one to teleport/smoke bomb/whatever

 

Basically beacuse Ash has so much shields and health his two main abilities let him regen his shields whenever he wants. Though Loki can maintain invisibility for longer so he may just not be taking damage in the first place.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Balo

[Davoodoo]

Shuriken was my favorite against ancients who are big as a barn so its hard to miss them, and have alot of armor too. Smoke screen works same way as loki invisibility in matter of dmg both dealt and taken.

[Naxza]

Loki will still get knocked down, but it won't take damage or anything if it gets shot. Combined that with Fast Deflection, and you can rebuild your shields whenever, wherever, slay eight or so dudes with charge attacks, and all for just fifty energy.

[FlanShark]

if that's true it's a bug, loki has never had any kind of damage protection while invis beyond the fact that nothing explicitly targets him and there's surprisingly little aoe in this game from enemies

[vats3]

if that's true it's a bug, loki has never had any kind of damage protection while invis beyond the fact that nothing explicitly targets him and there's surprisingly little aoe in this game from enemies

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Loki he is immune to bullets but thats it

[Zenanii]

Bladestorm needs some visual improvements (half the time I teleport inside walls/objects and the other half I seem to be striking thin air) but is great overall.

Shurilen seems to be a bit too inaccurate at times, but otherwise fine.

My biggest issue is with teleport. Can the devs PLEASE make you teleport to the target closest to your crosshair in a fairly large hitbox, make it able to target theough smaller objects and thin walls, as well as removing the little jump you make upon arrival.

I've had situations where I literally ran into a room full of enemies, hammered 3 and all I got was "Invalid target". The jump upon arrival really kills your tempo and makes the skill feels much less slick then it should.

[Skyfallen]

I like my ASH, just built after I reached lvl 30 Excalibur, shuriken needs to be fixed and smoke screen needs a little aoe and duration tweak, but overall it seems a fine class to play for skilled players, much like the ember and nyx in this regard.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Skyfallen

[Aure7]

I really hope they fix up him in the upcoming updates, shuriken is the biggest joke in the game. I thought about it as a cool sneaky way to take out enemies from distances and what did I got??? some peace of S#&$ that manages to fly to the other side of the screen and miss a target, standing right next to you. In fact it's so inaccurate, that all it's left to do is just spam it as any other melee weapon (wow so sneaky and ash-like).

Wouldn't mind some tweaks to teleportation, although it's my favorite ability in the game already. Blade storm and smoke screen should get some visual tweaks to match it to the other elements of the game.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Aure7

[s3kShUn08]

I feel like as far as character design Ash feels undewhelming in comparison to other frames.
His arms and legs have great detail but when you get to the main body its just BLANK, its a big empty space with few details to it.

Looking at a Loki frame or a Frost which has great details, even the Excalibur is simple but it has a few layers to it to give it a good look.
A type of light armor overlay would be noce rather than just a blank chest.

Another thought on overall customization is Blacks are not black enough. At best they are grey. A good example is try and make you're frame all black and then look at that in comparison to a Stalker. A jet black instead of a gray would be nice for all frame customiztion.

[Grand-Dozer]

I feel like as far as character design Ash feels undewhelming in comparison to other frames.
His arms and legs have great detail but when you get to the main body its just BLANK, its a big empty space with few details to it.
Looking at a Loki frame or a Frost which has great details, even the Excalibur is simple but it has a few layers to it to give it a good look.
A type of light armor overlay would be noce rather than just a blank chest.

Another thought on overall customization is Blacks are not black enough. At best they are grey. A good example is try and make you're frame all black and then look at that in comparison to a Stalker. A jet black instead of a gray would be nice for all frame customiztion.

  I was thinking it might look interesting to give those "blank" parts a synthetic muscle plating look, and instead of smoke clouds on one of his arms, whispy strands of smoke emitted from both arms.

As far as the Shuriken ability, it would be interesting if instead of one shuriken he threw a fan of four shurikens that would ricochet off walls, and pierce armor/enemies for a small distance (the ricochet could perhaps make them home in on the target a bit). This ability would deal the same maximum damage that the current does, so each shuriken would deal less damage proportionally, but could lock onto targets so that they do in fact hit. Edited April 19, 2013 by Grand-Dozer

[s3kShUn08]

  I was thinking it might look interesting to give those "blank" parts a synthetic muscle plating look, and instead of smoke clouds on one of his arms, whispy strands of smoke emitted from both arms.

As far as the Shuriken ability, it would be interesting if instead of one shuriken he threw a fan of four shurikens that would ricochet off walls, and pierce armor/enemies for a small distance (the ricochet could perhaps make them home in on the target a bit). This ability would deal the same maximum damage that the current does, so each shuriken would deal less damage proportionally, but could lock onto targets so that they do in fact hit.

As first abillities go Ash once again is pretty underwhelming. Either multiple small shuriken being thrown for a single hit or a large glaive type shuiken to be be thrown through a hoard of enemies. Similar to Slash Dash in function only thrown. So the basic mechaninc would be a weapon that passes through multiple enemies over a a long distance. This way Ash can deal with a crowd much faster than his current single, unruly shuriken.

It should be noted Ashes back has great detail. Overlapping bands and a few energy lights as well as the spinal protector from the head down the back. Continuing that to the front of him would definitely add to his frame.

Edited April 19, 2013 by s3kShUn08

[Grand-Dozer]

 I was thinking the fact that the Shuriken ability in its current state staggers enemies, giving it the ability to home in on a target after it flies a short distance (To maintain the ability to headshot with them) would mean you could throw some shurikens into a room and stagger multiple enemies dealing 87.5 damage roughly per shuriken hit, That could make the ability much more useful for crowd control while keeping its damage reasonable for the low cost. This could also mean you can throw a few shurikens around, then use Bladestorm, staggering enemies while dealing armor piercing damage/homing in on targets and slicing them with bladestorm to deal alot of damage to a large area.

 

EDIT: Weird quoting bug, it made my response your quote. There are no brackets in my response to add or remove the quoting function.

          EDIT 2: The fact the shurikens I've suggested have the guaranteed ability to always ricochet, and can pierce enemies means these have the potential to hit the same enemy/enemies multiple times which means technically they're stronger than the current iteration. (Fixed the quoting issue somewhat)

Edited April 19, 2013 by Grand-Dozer

[s3kShUn08]

The problem with bladestorm is it's unreliability. being Line of Sight (LoS) based it makes it incredibly underpowered imo. Even with LoS i can use it on a group of 5 enemies clustered together and only 2 teleports (the intitial teleport to 1st target and the subsequent 2nd teleport to the 2nd target) and not even touch the other 3. While at other times it will kill 4 osprey and a cameras. I don't mind the osprey but there needs to be some priority list.

Say 2 Shockwave MOAs, 2 MOAs, 2 Ospreys, and 2 Corpus charge in. Dealing with the Chock MOAs should take piority over the others as it has larger health and is the biggest threat then MOAs, Corpus, and Ospreys. Another terrible part about Bladestorm is the need to aim at an enemy for the attack to begin. I cant think of any other ultimates that require an aim to initiate. Since for the most part most would use an ultimate in a SHTF moment when your shields are down and your health is low. Those few extra seconds to take the time to aim at an enemy vs just intiating the attack can be the difference between pulling that attack off or dying.

[BlackPirate]

I think shurikens need more accurancy and dame headshot because ninja can't be miss target when assasinated :| right ? I think it worse than slash dash it can run :| and a little better dame because multitarget :| more working than shuriken

smoke screen can go through anemy

and teleport decrease mana and can teleport through wall

i think ash i a good warframe a perfect silent killer

[Keltik0ne]

It may just be me, but I find Ash to be one of the stronger frames overall. Not played Loki though.

[s3kShUn08]

Hands Down Rhino is the best frame. Put a scindo with max mods, Iron Skin, Flow, Streamlined, Redirection, Vitality, and Continuity. and you can go do any boss solo. Iron skin invincibility for 1min+ and a scindo with sundering strike, molten strike, fury, killing blow and reflex coil.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that his polarites for health mods means that even without a orokin reactor he can put max Redirection and Steel Fiber on and not eat a large portion or mod points.
 

Edited April 20, 2013 by s3kShUn08

[Anelyn]

And then your Iron Skinned Rhino didn't look where he steps and a simple Nauseous Crawler will freeze you place :(

[s3kShUn08]

And then your Iron Skinned Rhino didn't look where he steps and a simple Nauseous Crawler will freeze you place :(

Iron skin rhino vs Ancient Toxic...Rhino wins not one thing can even touch the rhino in iron skin, no knock backs, no freezes, just pure invincible melees.

[Mak_Gohae]

When he shoots his shuriken he actually shoot it up, the travel path has an incline, so you have to compensate when aim or else you are not going to hit. Smoke Screen has a stun so it's not really truly just a invis ability so comparing it to Loki its really not working to work. With teleport he doesnt actually appear in front of the enemy he seems to just shoot forward while unseen because i have ended up hitting a corner stopping my teleport so you have to have a clear path or else you are in trouble. Blade Storm is fine but i seem to have trouble starting it some times, i hit and nothing happens or there is some delay where i get hit before it starts.

[s3kShUn08]

When he shoots his shuriken he actually shoot it up, the travel path has an incline, so you have to compensate when aim or else you are not going to hit. Smoke Screen has a stun so it's not really truly just a invis ability so comparing it to Loki its really not working to work. With teleport he doesnt actually appear in front of the enemy he seems to just shoot forward while unseen because i have ended up hitting a corner stopping my teleport so you have to have a clear path or else you are in trouble. Blade Storm is fine but i seem to have trouble starting it some times, i hit and nothing happens or there is some delay where i get hit before it starts.

Thats the point though. That Lokis abilities while not directly correlated to damage function and function well.

For the shuiken ive seen some go off target and even one, though probably a one time glitch follow a target like it hit him and stuck but did no dmg.

The LoS teleport is a pain, and despite what they say in the realease notes you end up in front of an enemy not behind him.

Bladestorm is also LoS based so even though you can get a max of 8 targets on the 1st tier if enemies take cover behind a box and break Los the ability ends. I've had it end with only one kill ONE! a hundred energy for ONE kill is absurd. Again even to initiate Ashs' BS (yes im calling it that because the more i use it the more i feel it really is Bull) you must have a target in your reticule. If by some miracle a dev sees this PLEASE take these as contrsrtuctive criticism.

Again even then its hard to even tell the effective range and the range required to initiate BS. It is also incertian whether Reach, Continuity have any effect on his abillities at all. So far i know Smoke Screen is but BS is only effected by its level and is capped at a max enemy count to target. Why not make it time based like other Ultimate abilities? Nyx's ability is only limited to who actually hits her, Mag is only limited by AoE size, as well as Frost, and the rest. Excalibur is the odd one out as the Radial Javalin appears to have no real limit to area and even works well in conjunction with Mags bullet attractor power.