Lotus' "i Can't Detect A Single Lifeform" Line

[Imaru]

I hope you guys can at least save that line for Solo mode Extermination missions. Seems a shame to let an already recorded line go to waste.

It makes no sense in a lot of missions. Primary offenders are corpus missions (because MOAs and Ospreys are robots) and Earth (because you are in a flipping Jungle. Also it makes no sense if you have a Kubrow with you because they are alive. 

[Mak_Gohae]

Just finished big recording session with DE_George and indeed he made sure we updated this line at the end! Another old Lotus line bites the dust.

 

More flavor lost because because of current standards being placed in a sci-fi game that takes place thousands of years in the future.

 

 

It makes no sense in a lot of missions. Primary offenders are corpus missions (because MOAs and Ospreys are robots) and Earth (because you are in a flipping Jungle. Also it makes no sense if you have a Kubrow with you because they are alive. 

 

It make sense its just people, for unknown, reason decided that Lotus must be tracking everything on the planet just because.

Apparently, words have exactly one standard use that they cannot deviate from.

 

BTW, when a person ends a sentence by saying brother.... he is not actually saying he is your actual brother.

Hulk Hogan doesnt have that many brothers......

And dont hang any ten things when people say to hang ten.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Casardis]

More flavor lost because because of current standards being placed in a sci-fi game that takes place thousands of years in the future.

 

I'm confused as to what you're talking about.

 

Additionally, the main problem I have with this line is the fact that it plays during Invasions. How could there not be a single life form left in the viscinity besides you if you have either Corpus/Grineer allies by your side? The whole quote could be kept even in that context if "life forms" was changed to "enemy" or "enemy life forms."

 

It's a nitpick but people saying that it doesn't make sense aren't completely wrong about it either. I just hope the line isn't changed completely into something else, and that some of the old line's flavor is kept.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Casardis

[Mak_Gohae]

I'm confused as to what you're talking about.

 

The game takes places thousands of years in the future... the terminology is different.

Just like it is in the current times when looking into the past,boob and gay now have a different meaning and use than what they originally did.

 

Additionally, the main problem I have with this line is the fact that it plays during Invasions. How could there not be a single life form left in the viscinity besides you if you have either Corpus/Grineer allies by your side? The whole quote could be kept even in that context if "life forms" was changed to "enemy" or "enemy life forms."

 

It's a nitpick but people saying that it doesn't make sense aren't completely wrong about it either. I just hope the line isn't changed completely into something else, and that some of the old line's flavor is kept.

 

Can i ask you some questions?

Why would you think she is tracking EVERY single "lifeform" in a mission you are given a specific number of lifeforms to kill?

Dont you think once you killed every lifeform you were sent to kill an adequate statement is that you killed all the lifeforms being tracked?

Why would Lotus be worrying about all other things around the place?

Are we given a number tracking every lifeform on the stage or are we given a tracking number of the lifeforms we were sent to kill?

[Chaosdreamer]

notice that when Vor in void come , she does not detect him to

[Mak_Gohae]

notice that when Vor in void come , she does not detect him to

 

Right, she is not tracking him. He suddenly appears so she has no info on him.

The same for Zunika, Stalker, the G3 do get noticed but that's probably cause you get hacked.

[Bibliothekar]

The game takes places thousands of years in the future... the terminology is different.

Just like it is in the current times when looking into the past,boob and gay now have a different meaning and use than what they originally did.

But if language has changed, as you say - then why does the Lotus speak modern-day English with us and not something similar to Corpus and Grineer? Correct, because this future-lingo has to be translated so we, the players who live in the year 2014, can understand it. And if you translate something and come across a word that has changed its meaning, you either make a footnote to inform your reader about this change of meaning or use a modern translation that reflects the original meaning. And since footnotes in the Lotus transmissions would make them an absolute mess ...

 

Why would you think she is tracking EVERY single "lifeform" in a mission you are given a specific number of lifeforms to kill?

Whatever the reason, she obviously does track allied units in invasions, because we can see them on our mini-map.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[Mak_Gohae]

But if language has changed, as you say - then why does the Lotus speak modern-day English with us and not something similar to Corpus and Grineer? Correct, because this future-lingo has to be translated so we, the players who live in the year 2014, can understand it. And if you translate something and come across a word that has changed its meaning, you either make a footnote to inform your reader about this change of meaning or use a modern translation that reflects the original meaning. And since footnotes in the Lotus transmissions would make them an absolute mess ...

 

Again, boob and gay meant something different 60 years ago. Were we not speaking English back then?

So Sci-fi works across all types not have their own terminology?

The info provided is pretty clear, the lifeforms you were sent to kill are all dead and Lotus can only see you.

She was only looking at you and tracking the people you needed to kill.

You actually have to make a jump to make the claim that you folks are making because there is absolutely no evidence that she was tracking anything but you and the lifeforms that you needed to kill.

 

Whatever the reason, she obviously does track allied units in invasions, because we can see them on our mini-map.

 

That's your hud, that's not her hud.

Your hud is relaying relevant to you and she is tracking info relevant to her. 

[GorixtheG]

If Lotus said "I can't detect a single lifeform I sent you to kill" rather than just "I can't detect a single lifeform", then your argument would be relevant. In this context, she's saying she can't detect ANYTHING in the area. Yes, insects and the like are insignificant, but she should be able to detect the arctic eximus standing next to you.

 

Also, the enemy counter is part of your hud, right? then wouldn't that mean you're tracking the number of enemies, not the lotus? It makes more sense that she's sending you her scan information, rather than you picking up the ally's location. Plus, you need the "enemy sense" or "enemy radar" to see the enemy's location in the vicinity, so how would you know the general location of the next group of enemies?

 

Regardless, I think this argument is pointless, and I don't even know why I'm giving my input. The Devs have already said that they'll replace it, so there's no point in arguing more.

[sorq]

Lotus: I can't detect what i'm not supposed to detect, period. Now get to extraction.

[Mak_Gohae]

If Lotus said "I can't detect a single lifeform I sent you to kill" rather than just "I can't detect a single lifeform", then your argument would be relevant. In this context, she's saying she can't detect ANYTHING in the area. Yes, insects and the like are insignificant, but she should be able to detect the arctic eximus standing next to you.

 

 

She says, " No further lifeforms detected."

Second, how does the context translate to detecting every single lifeform in the area when the mission is for you to kill a specific number of lifeforms?

Explain to me this, why would the Lotus who sent you to kill a specific number  that is being tracked then all of a sudden switch to discussing every possible thing around?

Some folks are just hanging of the word and ignoring any actual context around what is actually happening.

 

Also, the enemy counter is part of your hud, right? then wouldn't that mean you're tracking the number of enemies, not the lotus? It makes more sense that she's sending you her scan information, rather than you picking up the ally's location. Plus, you need the "enemy sense" or "enemy radar" to see the enemy's location in the vicinity, so how would you know the general location of the next group of enemies?

 

Yes, this is what i am saying. She knows where and how many lifeforms you need to kill and relaying the info.

This is why you dont need Enemy Sense\Radar in Extermination missions, in Ext mission Lotus shows you what she is tracking.

 

Regardless, I think this argument is pointless, and I don't even know why I'm giving my input. The Devs have already said that they'll replace it, so there's no point in arguing more.

 

Sure, but we can still discuss the merit of the change.

Which i think it has none.

Same with the clip and the way the katana is held. 

We are thousands of years in the future but let's put current real world limits to what a sci-fi video game can do. That's the best thing about sci-fi... stripping away any sort of futuristic differences. Im surprise that people dont complain about the "Karyst," it should be called Keris!

 

Hey, how about fixing that line after you open a Vault and it mentions security when there nothing left alive in Extermination missions?

That's a line that actually needs a change.

[Ralthor]

She says, " No further lifeforms detected."

Second, how does the context translate to detecting every single lifeform in the area when the mission is for you to kill a specific number of lifeforms?

<snip>

You can change the meaning of a word by changing the context in which it is used so in the future words may well shift in meaning. However even though the game is set in the future, we are playing in the here and now so words and phrases and sentences should make sense in the here and now. In the here and now:

 

" No further lifeforms detected." - Nothing alive in your area. Oh look there's a Kubrow coming to rip my throat out! 

 

example of phrasing it differently: " No further targets detected." You should probably kill those feral Kubrow though. 

[Casardis]

Saying that it takes place in the future is no way an excuse to separate yourself from modern language, especially if the distinction isn't made clear (and this is usually made through lore; think Mass Effect). DE decided to change that, so it's proof enough to me that this wasn't thought through. If it was made clear somewhere, someplace, somehow, that the language used has been altered in this future, even if it's a hint, then I'll be fine.

 

Many other games do such a thing, and can make it clear with certain distinction (using old expressions in a medieval game, etc), but the fact (yes pretty sure it's a fact due to DE changing it) is that there's no such distinction in Warframe other than "it takes place in the future," which might mean nothing here unless DE gives it meaning. I have enough reason to believe that DE doesn't always think their lore through, whether it's consistency in the game, the lack of regular and simple lore information, and even what they said regarding Dark Sectors Conflict during a livestream.

 

In the end, it's just a simple modern English line that could have been made better for the context. Even if what you said does make sense, it's only semi-appropriate because a clearer line could still be a better choice without having to explain things like "they talk like that because future!"

 

 

Same with the clip and the way the katana is held. 

We are thousands of years in the future but let's put current real world limits to what a sci-fi video game can do. That's the best thing about sci-fi... stripping away any sort of futuristic differences. Im surprise that people dont complain about the "Karyst," it should be called Keris!

 

About holding a katana, I'm not looking for complete realism. That's besides the point. However, DE obviously based it on existing arts and forms, just like many other media like Soulcalibur, and when you have a source material, there's some liberties that you can take, while certain others have to be considered thoroughly before making a change. It's like culture appropriation, and if you're not doing it right in an art form, you can easily insult said culture. I don't think I need to give example on what trouble such ignorance could bring (War Bonnet appropriation).

It's great to get inspired and go crazy with an idea, but when its source is obvious (katana), some appeal comes from being accurate to certain source elements (the art form of iaido, kenjutsu, etc), because it's also acknowledging all the history and wisdom that these traditional art encompass. There's a reason why things are made that way in the first place. Simply dismissing these can make the subject lose its appeal as it tries hard to be unique (a lot of modern edgy artists try hard to do that). Further appeal should come from thought-out changes that can be justified better and not just "because I think it's cool, and also future."

 

So yes, for the katana at least, there's a merit to its change. Someone who learned those sword arts can see in games if the footing of certain people are wrong and uneffective, even if they defy physics. Even if someone's has insane super human strength, there's still certain ways for the body to move to make a strike more effective use of their strength, which is what separates an amateur swinging a katana like a baseball bat from someone who knows how to use it properly. If the Tenno finds new moves and use for the katana, they should still show their mastery over certain basics. If they want to do iaido with the blade down, then they should show in their attacks that there's a reason for it over the blade up, since the latter has a lot of reasons to be.

 

Was it a necessary change for the Nikana? Kind of, but rarely anything is a necessity. However, it was a welcomed change and thoughtful from DE, so there's merits in that. That's just my two (big) cents and so I will stop here.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Casardis

[Regar]

Message to everyone, stop answering to Mak_Gohae, the problem got relayed and solved and we will hear the result of our effort in game soon.

 

 

Goh is one of those person that will never admit to be wrong, there is no point in explaining things to somone who doesn't want to hear them, period

[Mak_Gohae]

You can change the meaning of a word by changing the context in which it is used so in the future words may well shift in meaning. However even though the game is set in the future, we are playing in the here and now so words and phrases and sentences should make sense in the here and now. In the here and now:

 

" No further lifeforms detected." - Nothing alive in your area. Oh look there's a Kubrow coming to rip my throat out! 

 

example of phrasing it differently: " No further targets detected." You should probably kill those feral Kubrow though. 

 

And it makes sense, the lifeforms you are sent to kill are not longer alive and she cant track them.

Why would she track anything other than what she sent you to kill?

Anyone want to answer this?

 

Like i said before, ending a sentence with the word brother doesnt actually mean that some one is your brother.

This is no different, this is no different that the military calling miles mikes.

 

Saying that it takes place in the future is no way an excuse to separate yourself from modern language, especially if the distinction isn't made clear (and this is usually made through lore; think Mass Effect). DE decided to change that, so it's proof enough to me that this wasn't thought through. If it was made clear somewhere, someplace, somehow, that the language used has been altered in this future, even if it's a hint, then I'll be fine.

 

Many other games do such a thing, and can make it clear with certain distinction (using old expressions in a medieval game, etc), but the fact (yes pretty sure it's a fact due to DE changing it) is that there's no such distinction in Warframe other than "it takes place in the future," which might mean nothing here unless DE gives it meaning. I have enough reason to believe that DE doesn't always think their lore through, whether it's consistency in the game, the lack of regular and simple lore information, and even what they said regarding Dark Sectors Conflict during a livestream.

 

If it was made clear? This thing takes places thousands of years in the future! Language can change in decades and this is not clear here?

And, yes, that's the point of sci-fi to excuse yourself from modern stuff and do something different.... how can you even say that. That's basically the definition of the Sci-fi, putting stuff in changed worlds.

 

 

In the end, it's just a simple modern English line that could have been made better for the context. Even if what you said does make sense, it's only semi-appropriate because a clearer line could still be a better choice without having to explain things like "they talk like that because future!"

 

The context is that you are sent to kill a specific number of lifeform... again.... why would she be tracking anything other than the number of specific lifeforms? Can anyone answer this? You are harping on the word ignoring actual context then claiming context at the same time. You cant say the word is the context because the word can have different uses.  There is actually no infomation whatsoever to give the player any clue that she is tracking anything other than the specific number of targets so the idea that she is tracking others is personally created by you folks based only on the word.

 

About holding a katana, I'm not looking for complete realism. That's besides the point. However, DE obviously based it on existing arts and forms, just like many other media like Soulcalibur, and when you have a source material, there's some liberties that you can take, while certain others have to be considered thoroughly before making a change. It's like culture appropriation, and if you're not doing it right in an art form, you can easily insult said culture. I don't think I need to give example on what trouble such ignorance could bring (War Bonnet appropriation).

It's great to get inspired and go crazy with an idea, but when its source is obvious (katana), some appeal comes from being accurate to certain source elements (the art form of iaido, kenjutsu, etc), because it's also acknowledging all the history and wisdom that these traditional art encompass. There's a reason why things are made that way in the first place. Simply dismissing these can make the subject lose its appeal as it tries hard to be unique (a lot of modern edgy artists try hard to do that). Further appeal should come from thought-out changes that can be justified better and not just "because I think it's cool, and also future."

 

So yes, for the katana at least, there's a merit to its change. Someone who learned those sword arts can see in games if the footing of certain people are wrong and uneffective, even if they defy physics. Even if someone's has insane super human strength, there's still certain ways for the body to move to make a strike more effective use of their strength, which is what separates an amateur swinging a katana like a baseball bat from someone who knows how to use it properly. If the Tenno finds new moves and use for the katana, they should still show their mastery over certain basics. If they want to do iaido with the blade down, then they should show in their attacks that there's a reason for it over the blade up, since the latter has a lot of reasons to be.

 

Was it a necessary change for the Nikana? Kind of, but rarely anything is a necessity. However, it was a welcomed change and thoughtful from DE, so there's merits in that. That's just my two (big) cents and so I will stop here.

 

The katana change made no sense because the Tenno are not Samurais and they dont follow any Bushido code. On top of the fact that the sword can actually be carried the way it was originally placed. Why was it changed? Who knows.

 

Message to everyone, stop answering to Mak_Gohae, the problem got relayed and solved and we will hear the result of our effort in game soon.

 

 

Goh is one of those person that will never admit to be wrong, there is no point in explaining things to somone who doesn't want to hear them, period

 

So this is the only way you can have a discussion? It's all about right and wrong and nothing more?

 

And i am trying to hear you but you guys are not explaining anything. All you folks are saying is that lifeforms NOW means things alive therefore she means to track EVERYTHING alive even though there is absolutely nothing to back that up, in fact, there is a whole bunch of info to counter that but lets ignore it because the word must be taken literally this time around. Why? Dont know... it just has to.

[Casardis]

If it was made clear? This thing takes places thousands of years in the future! Language can change in decades and this is not clear here?

And, yes, that's the point of sci-fi to excuse yourself from modern stuff and do something different.... how can you even say that. That's basically the definition of the Sci-fi, putting stuff in changed worlds.

 

No, sci-fi implies that, while a fiction, it places new science, laws, facts into play. One of the most important aspect about a science-fiction is their ability to initiate techno-babbles. Science-fiction are constantly try to explain themselves when new rules are put into play, when changes are made that are different from the world we know and live in, even if the explanation is stretched (which is why it's called techno-babble; see Star Trek).

 

Making a change and then not doing anything about it to justify and excuse, not even a single techno-babble, is against what most science-fiction do. I'm not saying that a change isn't possible, unlike what you seem to think I'm thinking. I'm just saying that it has to be done right. And no, it's not clear here because everything else sounds the same as modern English. If someone was to say a string of curse word from modern time in Warframe, I wouldn't even feel it's out of place. I have no reason to believe language has actually changed here, even if I believe it obviously can change.

 

 

The katana change made no sense because the Tenno are not Samurais and they dont follow any Bushido code. On top of the fact that the sword can actually be carried the way it was originally placed. Why was it changed? Who knows.

 

This will be my last reply for the topic because you pretty much show exactly what I meant by "ignorance." You say "who knows" without even doing proper research first. I say it again; when doing appropriation, one must consider certain factors and history. Whether the Tenno are aware of such history doesn't matter because the styles and weapon-type carry it within them. If a Tenno's a master of the blades, they should know a minimum of it. This is especially important for DE to be aware, regardless of whether the Tenno does or not.

 

As a practitioner of sword arts (my family has done it for generations) we have traditionally done it blade-up, as that is the samurai way for a variety of reasons.

1) The high draw as shown

requires the sword to be blade-up.

2) A blade facing upward indicates a time of war or battle. A downward facing blade as shown earlier in the thread means that you are peaceful and unprepared for battle.

3) An upward facing blade is incredibly important to the sheathing of a blade. When sheathing, the scabbard shifts to the side and the blunt end is run across the scabbard until the blade locks into place. From there you rotate the blade facing upward (facing it downward could cause injury at this stage).

-UpgradeInProgress

 

 

Lastly...

 

And i am trying to hear you but you guys are not explaining anything.

 

That's very insulting.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Casardis

[Mak_Gohae]

No, sci-fi implies that, while a fiction, it places new science, laws, facts into play. The most important aspect about a science-fiction are their techno-babbles. Science-fiction are constantly try to explain themselves when new rules are put into play, when changes are made that are different from the world we know and live in, even if the explanation is stretched (which is why it's called techno-babble; see Star Trek). Making a change and then not doing anything about it to justify, not even a single techno-babble, is against what most science-fiction do.

 

 

No... the most important aspect of Sci-fi is not technobabble.

It's very clear that you are not a sci-fi fan so i am continue with this part of the discussion.

BTW, watching Guardians of the Galaxy and playing Halo does not qualify you are knowledgeable.

 

BTW, technobabble exist in star trek because the writes that wrote the episodes did not write the science parts of the script, they left them to tech people. Eventually that was stopped and you could clearly see this in the show when the TB just stop making any sense.

 

 

This will be my last reply for the topic because you pretty much show exactly what I meant by "ignorance." You say "who knows" without even doing proper research first. I say it again; when doing appropriation, one must consider certain factors and history. Whether the Tenno are aware of such history doesn't matter because the styles and weapon-type carry it within them. If a Tenno's a master of the blades, they should know a minimum of it. This is especially important for DE to be aware of it, regardless of whether the Tenno does or not.

 

Styles changed, the idea that Samurai used the sword exactly one way forever is what can actually be called ignorant.

If you do a little research on this time period you can actually find plenty of times where new styles of combat were created by Samurais themselves thinking of new ways to attack. Which is how normal life works, people find new and different ways to work stuff. Heck, people in Japan with Anime change the norm on historical stuff constantly. And when did a sword because so important that their representation is law?

 

And the last sentence was about why DE changed it. I say who knows but it was likely to do with recognition. The current easy identifier for Katanas is facing up so when you show the Tenno doing that this triggers stuff in your brain that if you like Katanas you will probably want to try this game. This is how evil marketing works. The main reason i started playing this game was because it looked like the Bio-boostet Armor Guyver.

 

 

the samurai way

 

Lastly...

 

Are Tenno Samurai?

BTW, if that is the main thread that was discussing this im sure you will see wood prints showing people using it the other way in battle.

 

That's very insulting.

 

But you havent, your side of the discussion boils down to, "lifeform means she is tracking everything alive."

No indication why you think this based on any actual information from the game. Your whole argument revolves on how you think the word should be used ignoring the world this is taking place in and the situation at hand.

 

"This is the word and this is the only way it can be used," is not an explanation.

Do Heavy Units actually weight a lot?

[GorixtheG]

Okay, last post, then I'm leaving this thread.

 

It seems that your assumption is that if there's the possibility of language changing in the future, then it must have changed, even if we have already observed the Lotus using 21st century language in all of her other quotes.

 

" The Lotus uses future-lingo in this one line and not in any others because she can and it fits my argument."

 

The Tenno could have gained inspiration from samurai because they see what great warriors they were and they have a good combat style. Why fix something that isn't broken?

 

"This is the word and this is the only way it can be used," is not an explanation.

Do Heavy Units actually weight a lot?

 

1 - Have you seen how much armor a Grineer napalm has? or how slowly they move?

2 - The Heavy from TF2 is the largest guy in the game.

3 - Most heavyweight wrestlers weigh around 300 lbs. Does that sound like a lot?

4 - pretty much any character who is classified as a heavy unit is either very large, or has lots of muscle to carry thier powerful weapons.

 

Having that high amount of armor or muscle tends to give the character a high concentration of mass, so yes, heavy units do weigh a lot.

[Mak_Gohae]

One of the new lines needs to be adjusted because it doesn make sense.

Lotus says "All Targets are down, head to extraction."

 

Down where? I just killed them. Did she send the wrong info and now telling me they are below on another level?

She doesnt make sense when she talks about the targets.

 

This line needs to be taken out. Specially since the other version of it is basically the same except it uses proper wording.