You Say You Want Difficulty, But You Really Want Depth

[Alienami]

While I agree with the OP, I think these videos explain other aspects of the problem.

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/balancing-for-skill/

 

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/counter-play/

Edited April 16, 2013 by Alienami

[Ferriwind]

I think the biggest improvement to difficult enemies has been infested leapers. I hope DE continues to make these awesome changes to gameplay.

[Xariann]

I second the OP, the game needs more depth, it is difficult enough at the moment. Something that requires more tactics would be great.

[Aizeol]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their feedback and updates.

 

Also, bumping to try and get more viewpoints

[Aizeol]

Last bump in hopes some devs might see this

[Mak_Gohae]

No i want the game to be harder.

You can still have fun with 2d games that only uses two buttons.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[BlueCremeSoda]

If there were an option for difficulty such as normal/default and then hard/easy/harder/suicide you could satiate the people who simply want difficulty as well. Maybe have rewards scale up with difficulty too. Rewards scaling would obviously be a suggestion and not necessary though.

 

This would especially be useful when higher level and need to resort to farming a lower level mission for something you want but also want to have a challenge.

[LordLokai]

Yea imma just say if they start making every enemy a bullet sponge, and taking 30 gours and 4-5 ammo boxes and one shotting anyone looks at the bosses that would be boring and the wrong direction to go. What the game needs is complex enemy AI, bosses have unique phases, having to avoid certain attacks via land looking for specific tells. Have bosses apply specific debuffs share damage with another player forcing the group to stop dps... are a million mechanics can enhance the gameplay but, when people say " i want it harder " first thing pops into my head is " oh god not bullet sponges!" i do not want the whole borderlands experience where enemies get double life and damage based on number of players in the game... that was not a fun experience for me.

[Ditsydoo]

I love extra credits they make topics more understandable for those un-initiated in the game industry.

[Zeful]

No i want the game to be harder.

You can still have fun with 2d games that only uses two buttons.

Okay smartass, define "harder". No, I'm not joking, I'm calling you out. You want to make the game harder; well, how?

[Dasmir]

Nah i want more Complex AI teamworking with a little boost in damage to dealt against those overmoded tennos likes me.

[Aizeol]

No i want the game to be harder.

You can still have fun with 2d games that only uses two buttons.

 

What do you mean by harder?

 

I have already said that just making everything a bullet sponge is not the way to go.

 

Making enemies that require new tactics and new strategies from the player without having to force them to use more damaging weapons is a better way to go.

 

This will encourage people to learn how to play the game beyond just pointing their crosshair and clicking until it dies.

 

Having enemies that are more susceptible to powers and less to bullets might work, so will enemies that don't stay still or out-flank to encourage team-play.

 

These raise the challenge of the game in ways that offer more complexity and depth.

 

Bullet sponges are just plain boring.

[SpartanChief1170]

I definitely agree with the OP. I have noticed the game getting repetitive and I haven't gotten to "end game" yet.

The way I see it adding health and damage does force a small change in tactics however it only adds cycles. The more enemies/health/damage the more cycles of my damage dealing tactics I have to do.

 

For more clarification, for each enemy type I tend to use a certain tactic against it. Grineer lancer's don't have shields but have armor so as long as i am hitting them the damage will stick (efficiency for headshots and mods aside). so i can essentially shoot them until their damage takes down my sheilds, hide and reload. Repeat.

Adding health to them and damage simply changes the amount of time i spend in each phase. 

There are similar things for each type of enemy.

 

Enemies like the seeker's and the corpus drones do an excellent job of forcing tactics to change on the fly, and as such add Depth to the gameplay.

 

Warframe abilities and unique weapon types (incoming thrown weapons) will add a layer of depth because it will change an aspect of the gameplay by giving you more options and more challenges.

However the depth is limited. With these methods the only way to add more depth is to continue adding more of these things. There is also a kind of diminishing returns on this because if you are adding things that are similar to things that exist they will be less effective at giving more depth to the game because you can use the same or similar strategies you used with the previous similar versions.

 

new enemies, new mechanics, and adapting AI give better returns on depth as they force tactical changes regardless of weapon set.

New non combat mechanics (like the upcoming clan stuff) also can add a whole new direction to the depth talk. it gives variation on time in the game. We have to take a break from killing Grineer at some point and things like this give us something to do outside of that but still in game.

 

I know the devs are thinking about this as well and i am excited to see what directions they decide to take to expand the game in the future.

[ValhaHazred]

More powerful but dodgeable attacks and hitscan attacks aiming a moment behind the player are my favorite ideas from this thread. While we're on it would the roll move having invulnerability frames be a good idea? It would be meant as a defense against a much larger number of enemy grenades,mines and missiles. So far it's mostly pointless anyway.

[Mak_Gohae]

Okay smartass, define "harder". No, I'm not joking, I'm calling you out. You want to make the game harder; well, how?

 

Bring back nervos, bring back fast turning chargers, bring back less ammo on the field, take away health/Shield/ gains per level, what happened to enemies using mods? They should put that, that sounded very fun. Bring back grenades being thrown when you stay in one place too long, i havent seen grenades in a long time for some reason.

[Ghobe]

More powerful but dodgeable attacks and hitscan attacks aiming a moment behind the player are my favorite ideas from this thread. While we're on it would the roll move having invulnerability frames be a good idea? It would be meant as a defense against a much larger number of enemy grenades,mines and missiles. So far it's mostly pointless anyway.

I'd rather it stay in its current form. If you give it invincibility frames, it will be used for dodging everything. Right now for dodging grenades, your go-to is the sprint->crouch->jump, however this is pretty stamina intensive, if you don't have that stamina you can still use the roll, you just have to realize where the grenade is so you don't roll over it.

[Aizeol]

Bring back nervos, bring back fast turning chargers, bring back less ammo on the field, take away health/Shield/ gains per level, what happened to enemies using mods? They should put that, that sounded very fun. Bring back grenades being thrown when you stay in one place too long, i havent seen grenades in a long time for some reason.

 

Har har, very funny.  None of those made the game more fun, it just made it difficult without complexity.

 

Adding enemies that take more damage from certain attacks or from certain angles will help encourage team coordination.

 

There are plenty of other balance issue the game has.

 

My point is that there is a direction that Warframe should head, and a direction it should avoid.

 

Bullet-sponges, and many of the things you suggested didn't bring more strategy into the game, they brought frustration.

[Mak_Gohae]

Har har, very funny.  None of those made the game more fun, it just made it difficult without complexity.

 

Adding enemies that take more damage from certain attacks or from certain angles will help encourage team coordination.

 

There are plenty of other balance issue the game has.

 

My point is that there is a direction that Warframe should head, and a direction it should avoid.

 

Bullet-sponges, and many of the things you suggested didn't bring more strategy into the game, they brought frustration.

 

 

Pretty sure that's what i said in my first post......

[neKroMancer]

Bring back nervos, bring back fast turning chargers, bring back less ammo on the field, take away health/Shield/ gains per level, what happened to enemies using mods? They should put that, that sounded very fun. Bring back grenades being thrown when you stay in one place too long, i havent seen grenades in a long time for some reason.

 Bring back bad memory. Noooooo.Seriosly, theses are 'cheap' way to increase difficulty and they're also unimaginative. Contribute something to the actual thread, please.

Stop trolling around after one good post.

Edited April 17, 2013 by neKroMancer

[MJ12]

 Bring back bad memory. Noooooo.Seriosly, theses are 'cheap' way to increase difficulty and they're also unimaginative. Contribute something to the actual thread, please. Stop trolling around after one good post.

 

Dude it's Mak_Gohae. He literally knows less than nothing about good game design.

 

I bet if the game, due to a bug, 'accidentally' reformatted your HDD if you died, he'd beg and plead for that bug to stay in just because it adds "FEAR" and as everyone knows "FEAR = FUN". Which is why everyone enjoys volunteering to be a hostage, and it's not traumatic at all.

[Mak_Gohae]

 Bring back bad memory. Noooooo.Seriosly, theses are 'cheap' way to increase difficulty and they're also unimaginative. Contribute something to the actual thread, please. Stop trolling around after one good post.

 

Those were good memories, the first day with the chargers was so much fun running around to avoid getting hit. And the days with little ammo on the stages actually gave a use to ammo boxes that now serve no purpose other than being an icon in the inventory screen and padding the daily rewards to not give you cool stuff all the time. Imagine that.... having the ammo boxes being useful again...

Well, i guess when leveling the A/Furis and Twin/Vipers they can be needed but outside of that pffft.

[MagnumKnight]

Those were good memories, the first day with the chargers was so much fun running around to avoid getting hit. And the days with little ammo on the stages actually gave a use to ammo boxes that now serve no purpose other than being an icon in the inventory screen and padding the daily rewards to not give you cool stuff all the time. Imagine that.... having the ammo boxes being useful again...

Well, i guess when leveling the A/Furis and Twin/Vipers they can be needed but outside of that pffft.

to correct you, ammo boxes have been useful still despite what you think. as mainly a solo player, and some oen who plays with just one other person 90% of the time, there's been more than enough enemies to go around that eat up my ammo and i require a healthy resupply from the ammo boxes i get. your point is invalid good sir, and judging by the downvotes a couple of others, if not a few more, would like to disagree with you as well.  perhaps you should stop thinking about yourself and instead think about other people?

Edited April 17, 2013 by MagnumKnight

[Ghobe]

to correct you, ammo boxes have been useful still despite what you think. as mainly a solo player, and some oen who plays with just one other person 90% of the time, there's been more than enough enemies to go around that eat up my ammo and i require a healthy resupply from the ammo boxes i get. your point is invalid good sir, and judging by the downvotes a couple of others, if not a few more, would like to disagree with you as well.  perhaps you should stop thinking about yourself and instead think about other people?

Honestly, it comes down to how often you melee. If you melee often, then ammo boxes aren't necessary. If you rarely melee, you definitely want to consider them, especially if you aren't constantly hitting weakpoints. Though this is only in respect to higher level content.

[Mak_Gohae]

to correct you, ammo boxes have been useful still despite what you think. as mainly a solo player, and some oen who plays with just one other person 90% of the time, there's been more than enough enemies to go around that eat up my ammo and i require a healthy resupply from the ammo boxes i get. your point is invalid good sir, and judging by the downvotes a couple of others, if not a few more, would like to disagree with you as well.  perhaps you should stop thinking about yourself and instead think about other people?

 

I havent soloed in a long time and the game being easier now i didnt think they were needed in solo play. Outside of playing areas that are several levels above yours, i never starved for ammo and this was with Loki who doesnt even have any direct damage abilities. My point also included team play which back in those days did require at least one box once in a while.

[MagnumKnight]

Honestly, it comes down to how often you melee. If you melee often, then ammo boxes aren't necessary. If you rarely melee, you definitely want to consider them, especially if you aren't constantly hitting weakpoints. Though this is only in respect to higher level content.

ah, good day to you ghobe, it's a pleasure to speak with you again.for meleeing, that's entirely dependent on both the players play style, and the weapon in question thus coming out in varying and interesting results. saying meleeing conserves ammo is a true enough point to an extent... but its also at times just as time consuming as using the gun, but also much more risky if there is a large amoutn of enemies in the room.