Rushers, Explorers, And Common Courtesy

[TinFoilMkIV]

Recently there have been quite a few threads and debates showing up about the whole rushing vs not rushing issues in groups from the rushers side. Now that extraction requires 2 players to proceed, some rushers feel that the non-rushing players are interfering with their game play. And before that it was mostly the non-rushers saying rushers were interfering with their runs by ending them early.

 

Now part of this problem is that many players are solely looking to DE to resolve this issue, which will never completely happen. It will be impossible to keep all players in a group happy if they all want to play their own way but make no effort themselves to deal with issues that occur from playing this way. This isn't about which side is "right", or who should go play solo. Both sides have legitimate reasons and equal claim to play the game the way they chose. However there is a LOT that we as a community can do to improve our experiences with players of the opposing view in game.

 

An example I'd like to bring up is PvP etiquette in Dark Souls (I'll try to be brief as I could ramble forever about this game). The game itself has virtually zero in game management or control over how players chose to act in pvp, and as expected there is a fair amount of griefing, trolling, ganking, etc... What I found to be quite interesting was the evolution of player interactions for "honorable duels", which was essentially player set guide of what to do and not do if you were trying to have legitimate non-troll pvp, including things like allowing the host to finish any PvE enemies nearby, backing off and giving both sides a chance to prepare for the battle once they clearly see each other, not interrupting another 1v1 fight, and bowing before the actual match begins. And this wasn't just some niche clan rule that a few people go by, its fairly well known and is used by a lot of the community, and there is almost nothing anyone can do against a player that chooses not to follow these rules, other than deciding not to extend the courtesy of attempting to follow the rules against a player that has already shown they do not intend to follow them.

 

So as for warframe, our public group games are in a similar situation to public PvP in Dark Souls where no one follows any rules of any sort. It's a mess and often leaves many players upset. What we can do is learn as a community to communicate better and have some respect for players of varying views of how best to PvE, otherwise we can run in circles forever with the argument of "why don't you just go solo then?".

 

Lets assume for a moment here that eventually one style of play becomes the widely accepted normal or "correct" way to play. There will always be players who either want to try something different or simply got where they are without understanding or know the accepted "rules" on how to play. Do we really want to be constantly yelling at people for being "noobs" and not "learning how to play" and chasing them out of games? Do you want to be part of a community that forces you to play one specific way or "go solo"?

 

Anyways players need to understand that when you play public games you have little to no control over the other players "interactions may vary" and it should be understood that you'll encounter all kinds of situations and players both good and bad, as should be understood with pretty much anything involving the internet. 

 

There are at least a few basic things I can think of that we can all do to improve the community and our individual experiences. One would be to understand that a public game is not a good place to go if you have a very specific idea of how you want the run to go and do not like the idea that others might interfere with this. Secondly communicate, it doesn't take very long to ask if the group is rushing/farming/whatever when you first join, and if players start to understand this is common practice you can expect them to start asking the same of you when you want to do a general run style and still allow public players to join. Also we have global chat, you can form a group that way if you really want to do a specific run with random players that can agree to a playstyle. Along with understanding that public games are less than ideal for strict run types, is to be aware of the other options we have that are better suited to this. We have both Clans and Friends lists that you can use to keep track of and coordinate with players that like to play the way you do and know wont mess with your runs.

 

 

Anyways TL;DR

 

DE cannot solve all our issues of conflicting play styles for us. Communicate with others if you want them to communicate with you. Don't join public games and expect everyone to play the way you want. We have tools to make the game and community better, use them.

[CY13ERPUNK]

agreed +1 OP

 

I don't want DE to use a heavy-handed control approach

 

but I do think the game should offer positive incentives for BOTH playstyles, to allow for their to be room for the community to decide

 

(ie rewards for fast clears, and ALSO rewards for most kills/most pickups/secret areas/sidemissions/stalker bonus kills/etc)

[Bennyworld]

Yes, I agree with all that I had time to read ;P

But seriously - you have a very good point.

[TinFoilMkIV]

There have been too many threads talking about what the problems are and getting annoyed at the other side. I felt like we needed some discussion on how we can fix our end of things.

[Emolition]

Would be nice if the host could control if the game gonna be rushed or not. As when Im hosting now with the new system when I see a rusher just wanna tell my friends to slow down so he get to wait extra 5 min (not done it yet tho feels to mean). But when I join a game I will adapt to the game style they have if that is rushing then I run as fast as I can. Just think they should do the same if they join a game and not hosting if they see 3 ppl non that rush they should slow down to.

[Mrblurr]

There could be 2 sections of 'Online' play:

 

RUSH - Go through the level and ocmplete objectives fast as possible.

 

Fortune - Collect as much credits/resources/pickups as possible and complete the objective.

 

Any - Doesn't matter to you.

 

This splits the community a bit, but still lets you play the way you want. They could also add a feature that you can check to keep the game from putting you into the 'ANY' category after 2 minutes of looking or something. So if you just wanted a game but preferred fortune/rush you could maybe get it your way but if it didn't matter after a certain amount of time searching then you could just be put anywhere.

 

Like I said, this would split the playerbase a bit, but I think that it would make both sides happy for the most part.

[MaximumSquid]

The game's content is just being handled really poorly

 

People woudln't rush if the mission was a challenge, but people are because of how easy the game is

 

The fixes that are coming down are just creating more problems

Now we're getting a slew of unneeded social drama as we watch the people (including the devs) pick sides that don't encapsulate the whole picture or solve the root of the problems

Edited April 15, 2013 by MaximumSquid

[Ninjaman999]

How about giving players a tendency icon next to their name that goes from red (Loves to rush based on averge mission times) to green (Like to take time and/or be thorough). Would make matching peeps easier.

[TinFoilMkIV]

regardless of how the game is setup or what the devs do, there is still a lot that we as players and as a community can do on our end to make things better. You can't rely on DE to do all the work for you, they cannot fix all the problems that players create between themselves.

 

Sure having more features to be clear on the gameplay and whatnot would be nice, but the point of this thread is more about what WE can do on our end. Social drama only goes as far as we let it. Every conflict can be a huge ordeal or we can get over it and figure out what we can be doing better next time to avoid it.

[SilverBones]

I fear this may become a warzone fairly quickly, so I will say this;

 

It is unfortunate that play-style divides the community, but it is inevitable. No one can make you play a specific way and I do not believe that is in the intent of the Developers. However, I don't see any person saying the following;

 

"Well, I put all this time and hard work into making new tiles. All my blood, sweat and tears went into this art and level design for our game. Gosh I really hope someone just burns through it."

 

Regardless of which side has more ground to stand on, the developer puts effort into these things. I implore you all to enjoy it as much as possible, not to just get to the end ASAP. That, to me at least, is common courtesy.

[Inez]

The problem is not the rushers, its DE's system of letting rushers deny non-rushers the reward money. There's no reason for it, other than it allows more seamless gameplay with less host migrations. I'm willing to bet most slow explorers would be willing to wait on a host migration to get there 1k credits.

[TinFoilMkIV]

The problem is not the rushers, its DE's system of letting rushers deny non-rushers the reward money. There's no reason for it, other than it allows more seamless gameplay with less host migrations. I'm willing to bet most slow explorers would be willing to wait on a host migration to get there 1k credits.

That is only part of the problem, it's just one more reason for people to complain about it, but it is also part of the problem that is up to DE to solve, not us. We can tell them about it and express how much of a problem it is, but we cannot change that. What we can change is how we interact with eachother in game. If that player is willing to wait for a host migration, then that player can also decide to find a different group to play with if he decides to ask upon joining and finds that the rest of the group intends to rush the level.

 

My point is that what we do as players can contribute to either making the problem better or worse just as well as changes that DE makes to the game. And the part that we have control over, is what we do, not what DE does. So it would be just as beneficial to us as players to discuss what we can do and what we can ask other players to do to help make our gameplay experience more fun, as it is for use to let DE know what changes we would like.

[CY13ERPUNK]

I fear this may become a warzone fairly quickly, so I will say this;

 

It is unfortunate that play-style divides the community, but it is inevitable. No one can make you play a specific way and I do not believe that is in the intent of the Developers. However, I don't see any person saying the following;

 

"Well, I put all this time and hard work into making new tiles. All my blood, sweat and tears went into this art and level design for our game. Gosh I really hope someone just burns through it."

 

Regardless of which side has more ground to stand on, the developer puts effort into these things. I implore you all to enjoy it as much as possible, not to just get to the end ASAP. That, to me at least, is common courtesy.

 

^^^^

 

+1

 

the new corpus outdoor map with the stream running down the canyon with an open ceiling,

 

OH EHM GEE

 

=D

[smithf]

Just a little sidetrack:

Has anybody noticed that the so-called Rushers and Explorers can both be classified as Farmers. They are just farming different things... Basically, the real culprit is the F in Farming, whose alias is called the Foundry. :)

[TinFoilMkIV]

Soo... on topic guys, this is supposed to be about how we deal with the parts of the game that we can actually change ourselves, which is how we interact with other players. If we all start actually talking to people when we first join a run we can avoid a lot of bad situations that can ruin your play.

[caboosetheawsum]

stuff

An example I'd like to bring up is PvP etiquette in Dark Souls (I'll try to be brief as I could ramble forever about this game). The game itself has virtually zero in game management or control over how players chose to act in pvp, and as expected there is a fair amount of griefing, trolling, ganking, etc... What I found to be quite interesting was the evolution of player interactions for "honorable duels", which was essentially player set guide of what to do and not do if you were trying to have legitimate non-troll pvp, including things like allowing the host to finish any PvE enemies nearby, backing off and giving both sides a chance to prepare for the battle once they clearly see each other, not interrupting another 1v1 fight, and bowing before the actual match begins. And this wasn't just some niche clan rule that a few people go by, its fairly well known and is used by a lot of the community, and there is almost nothing anyone can do against a player that chooses not to follow these rules, other than deciding not to extend the courtesy of attempting to follow the rules against a player that has already shown they do not intend to follow them.

more stuff

I completely agree that playstyle conflicts can only be solved by the community and not DE, at this point. It would be really awsum to have player-created PvE etiquette like Dark Souls has for its PvP. Biggest problem is that even w/ the DkS PvP etiquette, there are still some areas filled w/ SH!TONS of gankers/griefers *cough*theforest*cough*. There's always someone who's gotta be a total doushe :<

But, just like u said, the easiest way to make interactions smoother is to actually communicate w/ the party, and send friend requests to the ppl who show courtesy and/or have a similar playstyle.

[Paptimus]

I completely agree that playstyle conflicts can only be solved by the community and not DE, at this point. It would be really awsum to have player-created PvE etiquette like Dark Souls has for its PvP. Biggest problem is that even w/ the DkS PvP etiquette, there are still some areas filled w/ SH!TONS of gankers/griefers *cough*theforest*cough*. There's always someone who's gotta be a total doushe :<

But, just like u said, the easiest way to make interactions smoother is to actually communicate w/ the party, and send friend requests to the ppl who show courtesy and/or have a similar playstyle.

 

forest lol, used chameleon and hid there while 3 people kept trying to find me forever

 

fun times

[happyfunba11]

If there were some way to talk to people, maybe we could work these things out. Until then, we are forced to go to these forums and hate each other. I just wish I had a way to connect with others that like to play the way I do, which depends entirely on my mood, which usually changes the moment anyone does something I wanted to do first, or when they follow me around like I'm supposed to take care of them. I hate you.

[Paptimus]

happyfunba11, on 16 Apr 2013 - 1:49 PM, said:

If there were some way to talk to people, maybe we could work these things out. Until then, we are forced to go to these forums and hate each other. I just wish I had a way to connect with others that like to play the way I do, which depends entirely on my mood, which usually changes the moment anyone does something I wanted to do first, or when they follow me around like I'm supposed to take care of them. I hate you.

press "t" ingame and ask "rushing?", if they say yes you rush, if they say no, you explore.

its simple.

[wkamikaze]

"Respect for the rights of others means/is peace" BJ +1

[CaptMytre]

The only reason people rush is because it is the fastest way to earn credits. Solve that problem, and there would be no issue with rushing, as it would provide no intensive to do so (aside from BP farming). More credits should be earnt from drops would help solve this issue.

[Fiia]

I end up rushing due to others that know the little passages to go to when running at the end of the game.  It is nothing more than keeping up with others as not to get left behind or have the game end without getting to the exit.

 

I do think it would be nice to explore a map and really see what it has to offer.

 

I think if DE made areas that gave rewards as great as say, a second run on another map, people may slow down a bit (a bit mind you!).

[Lifeshield]

DE cannot solve all our issues of conflicting play styles for us. 

 

They could actually. They can just let a player leave once they reach Extraction without ending the level for the rest of the players until either

 

A; They reach extraction and extract

 

Or...

 

B: Die a slow and painful death. :D

 

Rusher can rush, explorer can explore. Simples.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Lifeshield

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Isn't it strange that none of the enemy factions know where the extraction points are located even on their own ships?  Why do their ships intentionally have docks made for the Tenno landing craft?

 

I think the best way to keep a team together is to put so many enemies right before the extraction point that it's impractical to fight with one or two players alone.

 

DE should also try scaling back the enemies for people trying to complete a level on solo, that way people can play for items they want to farm on their own.  It's a difficult balance in trying to keep the game challenging and not frustrating at the same time.

[Ageless_Emperion]

How about we lay down a little simple code of conduct for people to follow when they play, nothing too complex and those who don't follow it can rot since they don't want to expend even the least bit of courtesy to other people.

 

1. When you start a map make your intentions clear to the random players that join you. Simply say, this is an exploration run, rush run or blueprint run. The host decides the run he started, there should be no complaints about it, if your joining a random game then expect to follow the rules set in it.

 

2. If you don't want to do what the host wants to do then disconnect and look for another group, the game is good enough not to place you in the same group you just were in or host your own open game.

 

3. REVIVE YOUR FELLOW PLAYERS.

 

4. When playing in any mode mark the drops you see with your "G" key, this goes for mats and mods.

 

5. Keep up with the team and don't wander off on your own in any mode, you lose exp/mods for yourself and slow down the team.

 

6. Wait for everyone to get into an elevator before starting it.

 

7. If your the host of a blueprint run make it clear you will reset the map, this will cause everyone on your team to begin a host migration so allow everyone ample time to pick up the mods/mats/blueprints and to disconnect before you do. YOU SHOULD BE THE LAST TO GO AS A HOST IN A BLUEPRINT RUN. Its common courtesy and makes the transition from one run to another much smoother.

 

Simple right, common sense stuff, I know that if folks can use even just this it would make their lives a lot simpler.