So.... As The Tenno We Are Actually Terrorists?

[letir]

No, the player fights for that stuff. The Tenno have different motives.

Fusion Moa Event

"Kill new MOAs for the reward".

 

Arid Fear Event

"Kill bad guys for the reward and find a place with loot"

 

Operation "Spectres of Liberty".

"Pls, save our peoples for the reward"

 

Operation "Avalanche offensive"

"Pls, kill bad guys for the reward".

[laserkid]

A freedom fighter is one that wishes to  destroy a perceived tyranny so that all may be free. A terrorist is one that wishes to destroy a perceived tyranny so that they may institute their own.

 

One can be forgiven for not knowing the difference, it's a very fine line.

 

The Tenno do not fit into either category as, first and foremost they neither wish to destroy the grineer or the corpus, just maintain a sort of balance between the two. As such they aren't trying to overthrow anything, and they are neither trying to free everyone nor take power for themselves.

 

One could suppose Lotus does wish to rule and uses the Tenno as a terrorist army, but you need a lot more than base speculation to get that across as a fact.

 

The Tenno are MUCH more like a black opps team killing when necessary, taking when necessary, and doing all the missions they need to keep the universe safe as they see 'safe' being.

[kuri99]

For the last few years theres been a lot of debate on what is actually a terrorist vs what is a freedom fighter. Its been especially prevelant in the united nations. I think its because the traditional definition of terrorist has little place in our current modern world. That said, I came up with my own definition several years ago. To me, a terrorist is someone that targets non-combatants in order to force political/social change. In real war non-combatants are completely off limits and soldiers who do harm them are arguably war criminals. There are some exceptions IMO though (for example a friend, a vietnam veteran, has told me that his squad found a woman skinned alive and they shot her out of mercy). I had a few similar morally questionable situations during my 2 tours in Iraq.

 

Under that definition the Tenno are not terrorists. We only target military/diplomatic personnel and installations of a very clear enemy.

[jonnin]

I would say no.  Terrorists generally attack civillians and non-military targets. 

 

We attack military bases with strategic raids. Even the exterminate missions are targeting enemy soldiers.

The grineer absolutely declared war on us.  Listen to the things their little buffbots *say* --- it is mostly anti-tenno propaganda that blames their plight on us.  Truth is their problems started long before we were awakened.  

 

The infested are the hapless victims of an alien life form that is out for domination.  Unfortunate as it is we have to defend ourselves.

 

The corpus want your warframe(s) and try to kill you to get it.   So they also have declared war on you.

 

It does not even matter what lotus says or does, really.  All 3 factions are out to kill you and will not negotiate, regardless of what she says.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

And doesn't that really speak volumes of the Tenno?  Because I totally would do that too.

No.

It shows how gamers realize the difference between RL and games.

[jj16802]

 

Let me put in it terms of Burn Notice:

Lotus = Management

Tenno = Michael Westin/Simon Escher/Victor Stecker-Epps or any other burned operative.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I'm just here for the blood.

 

An interesting thought.  We do carry out missions like a spy would.... but you know what is interesting?  A lot of acts that those "spys" do in Burn Notice are put down as acts of terrorism in magazine clippings and whatnot.

Whew, I'm a bit late to reply to this message.

 

And yeah, that was what I was trying to get at. The Lotus are probably using the Tenno as Management would use the burned spies. We don't know what she is trying to accomplish, and her objectives could be terrorism for all we know.

Edited September 9, 2014 by jj16802

[RXZ71]

A terrorist?! How dare you! Im more of a stab happy genocidal maniac!

[Omnimorph]

The rebels were "terrorists" in Star Wars.

The French and U.S. Revolutionaries were "terrorists."

 

 

Neither is true.   The rebels were called terrorists by the Empire, but that doesn't mean they were terrorists (i.e. to a neutral observer).  The Empire was of course lying.

 

And the word "terrorism" in its modern sense hadn't been invented yet at the time of the French and US revolutions, it comes from the late 19th century, and has the definition I gave a few posts up (i.e. as a tactic in assymetric warfare, with specific aims and purposes, initially used by Russian Nihilists and Anarchists).  The "terror" or "reign of Terror" of the French Revolution was an entirely different thing.

 

This "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter" trope is overused and only very occasionally apposite.

[TheOmnipotentKiwiStand]

-Edited-

Edited September 9, 2014 by TheOmnipotentKiwiStand

[Brimir]

Neither is true.   The rebels were called terrorists by the Empire, but that doesn't mean they were terrorists (i.e. to a neutral observer).  The Empire was of course lying.

 

 

That's the whole point of the trope... duh.

[ElHefe]

Upon reviewing the last 5 pages in this thread is it clear that discussion has fallen to disputes about connotation of the word "terrorist"

Given there is an infinite number of possible connotative derivations, it is no small wonder that no progress has been made to answer the original thread question in the manner it was intended

 

I would submit that the core question is whether you imagine The Lotus' aims are altruistic or self-serving

Given the limited amount of information we have about The Lotus, the answer to this question remains subjective

However, the difference is that through game play one can develop at least an intuitive impression of what The Lotus is about whereas contending over the definition of a terrorist probably has little actual experience for the vast majority of us

 

Personally, I see The Lotus as a BIG unknown ... she makes statements about herself but that does not mean they are complete, accurate or truthful

 

Until we learn, understand, figure out more about The Lotus, I don't know whether the Tenno are terrorists or not

What I do know is the environmental services, morticians, orphanages, animal control, recycling plants, hazmat centers, coroners, civil contractors or vending machine operators  will never lack for work with the Tenno around and pensioned widows are the most rapidly growing segment of the Origin System society

 

Hmmm ... maybe Tenno aren't terrorist after all, they are like the teamsters ... middle men suppliers just keeping everybody with a job

Edited September 9, 2014 by ElHefe

[Brimir]

The Tenno as a whole are the big unknown to be honest. Not just the Lotus. All the Tenno alive now have no recollection when it comes to their past actions. All we know is that they were once part of the Orokin Empire and for one reason or another they assassinated the Orokin Emperors which brought the Orokin Era to an end. Then they froze themselves and woke up with no memories of their past.

 

This "cover-up" seems deliberate, perhaps on the part of the Lotus, as even Ordis has been wiped clean of those memories. Could be she even brainwashed the Tenno to forget, perhaps not out of any malevolence but compassion.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Brimir

[Wiegraf]

In the eyes of the Corpus, we'd likely be seen as terrorist as well as "Betrayers".

 

In the eyes of the Grineer, we'd likely be seen as another military faction they need to conquer and/or subjugate.

 

In the eye(s) of the Infested.... nom nom nom?

 

In the eyes of the common people and rebels (Red Veil), we'd likely be seen as saviors liberating them from the economic and militaristic opression of the Corpus and the Grineer, the former possibly profitting off the common people, the latter enslaving them while also being part of the effort to fight back Infestation which even the Corpus and Grineer are against.

 

---

 

Otherwise, it's hard to tell.

 

The Tenno once were guardians and protectors of the system against a threat to the Orokin. Their purpose back then was clear cut and while it's nebulous if the Orokin was either truly benevolent or only made to appear benevolent is debatable (the latter would explain why the Tenno would turn against them if they eventually viewed their Orokin masters as much a danger as the threats they fought or if the Orokin had been proven to enforce their will on others, as the Orokin Neural Sentries in Void Towers tend to suggest), their purpose now is merely suggested by the Lotus.

 

It's as if you took a few samurais of the feudal era and brought them to today's Japan and asked them to adapt : at first, they'd seek out a lord to serve but given there's (technically) no more lords in modern Japan, they would need to seek another purpose entirely. It's pretty much where the Tenno are right now : no longer servants or 'knights' under another's rule but rather their own person individually.

 

It's likely why, right now, the Tenno are splintered into different clans with different values and goals while some traditions (like the Conclave and the Armistice) are kept but adapted to the current setting.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Wiegraf

[Macdermott]

If we ever get concrete information on things like "The Colonists" or whoever the remaining normal people are, perhaps we'll have a more solid foundation to build our motivations from.

 

Until then, we're just short-sighted mercenaries employed by whomever to destroy whatever, whenever, and where ever.  There is no "why ever".

[Tekknoir]

SO.... AS THE TENNO WE ARE ACTUALLY TERRORISTS?

 

Yes.

[Brimir]

The Tenno once were guardians and protectors of the system against a threat to the Orokin.

 

Indeed, ironically they were both the saviors (by winning the war against the "Sentients") and and destroyers (by assassinating the Orokin Emperors) of the Orokin Empire.

 

Funny how that worked out. I'd love to get some details on why the Tenno decided to go from being loyalists to betrayers of the Orokin like that. It either means that the Tenno have a dark secret, or they discovered some dark secret on part of the Orokin....

[Metalarcher]

Are we terrorists?

 

Well to the Corpus and Grineer, absolutely.  In fact, we may even be genocidal.  But it is unknown whether a Tenno would attack a Grineer or Corpus civilian on sight because we want to exterminate all chance of rebellion in the much-desired Tenno regime.  We just have no context for it.

 

The real question:  are we evil?

 

Probably not.  And the stalker doesn't seem to be a great guy either.  His morality is all twisted, and probably was even before the fall of the Orokin, leading him to believe the Tenno bit the hand that fed them, when in reality the Orokin were their captors and they were liberating themselves.  But again, we don't know whether Tenno would blindly attack unarmed enemies because our enemies are always trying to kill us, and that would really determine whether we are blood-hungry killing machines or just very, very efficient warriors.

 

As for the Lotus...

 

Who knows anything about her?  She says a lot, but not a lot of it means much.  Something interesting she says in the Alad V assassination mission: "this power is sacred; this blasphemy must end now" or something to that effect.  Whether this was metaphor or she truly has some kind of religious purpose for guiding the Tenno we can only speculate on.  Perhaps she is only using the Tenno to bring balance through her own law, but with the Corpus and Grineer controlling the majority of the system, who is to say that would be a bad thing?

[Brimir]

I don't think the Grineer have civilians as much as they have human slaves, to be honest. I don't think the Grineer would even have the concept of terrorism because they have no civilians and are a purely military society/culture.

[ElHefe]

(edited) In the eye(s) of the Infested.... nom nom nom?

 

Hahaha!  Now that made me belly laugh ... but, seriously - no, I don't wanna be nomnom

Good remainder of post too ... 1+

I agree that the Tenno are ronin at the very least were it not for The Lotus for whom it appears is now our master

Edited September 10, 2014 by ElHefe

[Wiegraf]

Indeed, ironically they were both the saviors (by winning the war against the "Sentients") and and destroyers (by assassinating the Orokin Emperors) of the Orokin Empire.

 

Funny how that worked out. I'd love to get some details on why the Tenno decided to go from being loyalists to betrayers of the Orokin like that. It either means that the Tenno have a dark secret, or they discovered some dark secret on part of the Orokin....

 

That's my thoughts too... I mean, IF the Orokin Era was really a Golden Age, something must've driven the Tenno to rebel.

 

What I personally assume might have happened in the form of different scenarios :

• 1. The Orokin actually subjugated humanity and put their mind through a lesser version of what is referred to as a Lotus Eater Machine (in short, made to believe all is right through some sort of ideal dream forced into subjects mind; yes, the irony of the name isn't lost on me). The Neural Sentries in Void Towers subjugates anyone who spends any lengthy amount of time there so it's possible the Orokin, themselves, used it on a wide scale on Earth during the so-called golden age. Then one Tenno broke free in some way, managed to free his or her brethen and they moved to destroy the Orokin and their control of the world, ending the 'ideal dream' and returning humanity to reality, for better or worst. The Tenno exiles themselves to leave the last trace of Orokin influence with them. The Stalker happens to be one of the few low-guards which 'indoctrination' is deeply seeded and still believes he is avenging the Orokin by hunting down the Tenno.

   

• 2. The Orokin DID usher an era of peace, a golden age on Earth while fighting back the Sentients with the aid of the Tenno. However, some time after the threat was quelled, the Tenno collectively turned on the Orokin and destroyed them. The reason is never clear but could be anything going from the Tenno wishing to become free of their task (since the threat they were made for is now gone), wishing to remain in the era of peace (possible that the Orokin planned to eliminate the Tenno once their use was fulfilled but the Tenno caught wind of it and preemptively struck back at them. The Tenno then decides to exile themselves, being the last remnant of the Orokin in humanity. The Stalker sees the Tenno as traitors and decides to hunt them down in the name of the Orokin.

   

• 3. Another variant of the two former is that the Orokin DID usher a golden age for humanity but humans, being what they are, constantly warred between each other late into it. The Orokin decided to subjugate humanity "for their own good" by creating the Neural Sentries. The Tenno might've been uneasy about it and gone along with the plan until it was made clear the Orokin started to abuse the Neural Sentries' effectstoo far and rebelled. The Tenno destroys the Orokin and humanity, thinking they were in perfect peace, blame the Tenno for the end of the golden age. The Tenno exiles themselves to leave humanity at peace, bearing the burden willingly. The Stalker happens to be one of the few low-guards which 'indoctrination' is deeply seeded and still believes he is avenging the Orokin by hunting down the Tenno.

   

• 4. The darker side of things might be that the Tenno, having been made from being exposed to the void, discover it was intended by the Orokin and were forced to become warriors against their will. They fight back the Sentients not for the Orokin but for themselves and humanity and when it's all well and done, they decide to remove the Orokin presence from humanity entirely. It actually leads to humanity losing its golden age of peace and the crumbling of civilization that was depending almost entirely on the Orokin to sustain itself. Shunned, the Tenno exiles themselves, having brought upon humanity it's greatest disaster. The Stalker is one of the few low-guard who swears vengeance on the Tenno for the downfall of humanity until each of them is dead.

   

• 5. Going further down the dark path : the Orokin came to humanity as benefactors and showing their wish to fight a threat that is coming (the Sentients). However, they omit to mention that the Sentients were themselves created by the Orokin before they made first contact with humanity and the Orokin themselves were exiled from their homeworld by the Sentients. Thus, the Orokin has two of its creations (the Tenno and Sentients) duke it out knowing the victor will likely be weakened after it's all over. However, the Tenno completely outclasses the Sentients and destroys them, leaving them quite strong. In the midst of it however, a few Tenno comes across the truth of the Sentients' origins and the Orokin's involvement. They plan to strike at the Orokin when they least expect it, knowing it will lead to humanity turning against them as they aren't aware of the ploy and the whole of it will likely be seen as a major coup from the Tenno. After doing so, the Tenno exile themselves to leave humanity to progress once again by itself.

 

 

They're all theories though since other than tibits of information and lore, there's no actual knowledge of what really happened before Warframe. Also, considering the Tenno have no memories of any event before Warframe, in the first 3  and 5th scenarios, it's possible that something interfered with the Tenno during their cryosleep to make them amnesiac as otherwise, they might wish to remember what they did as they deemed it necessary. In the 4th scenario's case however, it's possible they willingly made themselves amnesiac before cryosleep so to forget their actions so that if they are called back into service, they can help humanity without bias or hesitation, blank slates that could redeem themselves.

 

Hell, it's even possible that the amnesia is simply a side effect of going into cryosleep while recuperating from the Neural Sentries' effect on the mind; basically, it doesn't mix and led the Tenno who were, until proven otherwise, the only people who went into cryosleep so soon after these events while the rest of humanity recovered naturally over time.

 

Also about the Lotus Eater Machine reference, it's interesting to see that the Lotus is herself presented as if wearing an elaborate helmet hooked to something, much like how one would expect a Lotus Eater Machine would look like if used on someone. Of course, since [DE]Rebecca let slip before that the Lotus is actually an AI, it might simply an artistic choice to represent her that way, leaving her appearance feminine to fit her voice but otherwise, all other notable features (like the eyes, hair, expression) to be up to interpretation.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Wiegraf

[Brimir]

Especially since the enemy was named "the Sentients" - this to me heavily implies that they were a faction within the Orokin Empire who resisted the brainwashing of the Neural Sentry. Perhaps they were demonized through Orokin propaganda and once the Tenno were sent out to eliminate them once and for all they learned the truth.

[Campaigner]

There are no good guys in Warframe = everyone is a terrorist = no one is a terrorist.

[Omnimorph]

That's the whole point of the trope... duh.

 

No, it's not actually, the trope "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" doesn't mean that people are lying when they call another side's freedom fighter's "terrorists", the trope means the question is (supposedly) essentially undecidable, or a matter of definition, or a question of point of view (say, depending on whether they're "our guys" or "their guys").

 

On the contrary, I am upholding the distinction (mostly it is a distinction that depends on a context of assymetric warfare, choice of targets and utilization of publicity), and saying people can and do simply lie about it, and that the trope muddies the waters.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Omnimorph

[Brimir]

No, it's not actually, the trope "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" doesn't mean that people are lying when they call another side's freedom fighter's "terrorists", the trope means the question is (supposedly) essentially undecidable, or a matter of definition, or a question of point of view (say, depending on whether they're "our guys" or "their guys").

 

On the contrary, I am upholding the distinction (mostly it is a distinction that depends on a context of assymetric warfare, choice of targets and utilization of publicity), and saying people can and do simply lie about it.

 

Now you're just being obtuse. The trope isn't about lying, obviously, but the fact that label of terrorist depends on the viewpoint of the beholder. The Empire wasn't lying when they branded the Rebels Alliance as terrorists.

 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Brimir

[Toppien]

i like to think, we are more like vigilantes, we dont work inside the actual system (the corpus economic imperialism, nor the grineer dictatorial empire) so as we are taking justice by our own hands, obviously we are criminals to the eyes of those factions in the solar system, and we are heroes at the eyes of the oppressed by those people