Update Aspects Of The Game Design To Modern Standards

[Ashgan9]

eh I like the energy system as is just wish there was more options on how to up your energy then the energy balls and Energy Siphon if there was more mods or whatever to help with energy regen I'd be a happy camper.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Ashgan9

[Aggh]

 

 

OK. I am a hand to hand combat instructor by trade, occasionally contract commercial writer and commonly an ameture game designer.

Though that ameture part will change as soon as my first compelted product hits the shelves next year!

c\_/

 

1,2 and 3: The ammo system is based too much on luck. This is flawed.

It should definitely be based on the amount and difficulty of enemies being faced and defeated.

It is also split up between multiple weapon types for no clear reason cosndiering the loadout model warframe uses.

However If ammo for all long guns became one standard ammo type we wouldnt need infinite ammo on the pistols.

A unified verion of this idea is to have two ammo types. Long gun and pistol. Simple as that.

This also doesnt require the amount of pistol rebalancing that infinite pistol ammo would.

And it would still be luck based since ammo drops are based on mob's loot tables, taking out other types of ammos would just mean that they'd have to lower the overall probability of ammo drops.  Ammo drops are a very common system  in piles of excellent games and I find it hilarious that anyone would complain about it being luck based and thus flawed.

 

 

4: Current energy system is flawed because it makes things too reliant on chance.

You may have a lot, may have a little and is not necessarily proportionate to the amount or difficulty of the enemies in an encounter.

It needs work.

However, putting the abilities on a cooldown system changes the intended freedom of choice of what abilities are used when and how often.

To allow the player to use small ones a lot, at a fast pace or slow onen, to use big ones less often or some combination in between.

Its supposed to allow a player to choose whether they rely more on gunplay,abilities, melee or some combination of the above.

Warframes fast paced combat model is based on momentum so waiting for energy to replenich or cooldowns to be done is the worng direction.

As a game designer the job is largely to create the proper mechanics to facilitate the desired gameplay goal.

 

The most logical suggestion that would do that is the one about making energy replenish for fighting and/or otherwise being involved in combat.

This retains the freedom and brings the return of power more in line with the effectiveness of combat.

This is actually the most like the rationale you used for your solutions regarding ammo.

As in-Consolidate the resource and make it proportional to the fight youre in.

 

Variable cooldowns might acheive a similar result if cooldowns lower based on combat actions but thats really just a more substantial chane to the system than required. A simple fix to how energy is aquired is the most expediant answer.

 

Ie you want to let people use powers all the time and not have to worry about choosing when to use abilities.  Even a cool down system would be better, but would still dictate what powers are used and when they are used too much. 

 

It would be way to hard to balance energy always being earned from combat.  That kind of system could easily lead to exploits where people infinitely chain powerful abilities.

 

As it stands now, energy drops are quite common and the only thing really breaking the system is the poor cost effectiveness and effectiveness of many powers.  This is easily fixed though.  Volts speed is a good example.  It used to cost 50 energy so the only people that could use it consistently were the people stacking power efficiency.  Once its energy cost was lowered, it became one of the best powers in the game.

 

 

8: For clarities sake-Warframe has a certain pay for power aspect not a pay to win aspect.

"Winning" is only defined by completing missions in warframe, since that can be done without the "potatoes" or more powerful weapons its not a logical term. However, money can definitely increase ones power at an accelerated rate. Without payingf or such things it is a large time invested to get them. Hence-Pay for power is the accurate term. The only question is whether or not its within reasonable amounts or not.

Love or hate it lets just make sure we are talking about the right thing.

 

That's not paying for power.  That's paying for progression and convenience, Ie the main way that all f2p games make money.  Please think before you type out nonsense like this.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Aggh

[Ronyn]

c\_/

No idea what that is supposed to mean. lol

 

And it would still be luck based since ammo drops are based on mob's loot tables, taking out other types of ammos would just mean that they'd have to lower the overall probability of ammo drops.  Ammo drops are a very common system  in piles of excellent games and I find it hilarious that anyone would complain about it being luck based and thus flawed.

I didnt say flawed because its based on luck, I said its a problem because its based TOO much on luck.

 

Loot tables based on enemy difficulty would put things more in line with projected ammo usage than drop rate based on something else. An enemy that requires a lot of bullets to kill should drop more ammo than an enemy that requires less. Its logical.

 

As for why I dont like different ammo types. Its not entirelly about fear of running out. Its about how useless it is to find ammo for weapons you cant use. In a game where I can change weapons it makes sense, in a game where I cant what is the point? Its just useless clutter on the screen. How is that efficent use of assets? Consolidating ammo and lowering the drop rate to compensate for the losing the useless drops is just smarter all around.

 

Many other games that have the whole "luck" of ammo drops also have a more versitile armemment system. If I run out of shotgun ammo I can simply drop the shotgun and pick up whatever weapon is lying around. Not the case here. Most of those piles of excelent games youre referencing have a different loadout system than warframe.

Different set up, different problems, different solutions are required.

 

Ie you want to let people use powers all the time and not have to worry about choosing when to use abilities.  Even a cool down system would be better, but would still dictate what powers are used and when they are used too much. 

 

It would be way to hard to balance energy always being earned from combat.  That kind of system could easily lead to exploits where people infinitely chain powerful abilities.

 

As it stands now, energy drops are quite common and the only thing really breaking the system is the poor cost effectiveness and effectiveness of many powers.  This is easily fixed though.  Volts speed is a good example.  It used to cost 50 energy so the only people that could use it consistently were the people stacking power efficiency.  Once its energy cost was lowered, it became one of the best powers in the game.

 

I didnt say "I want to use powers all the time and not have to worry about choosing when to use abilities"

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

 

And no, there is no reasson to assume it would be hard to balance energy gain from combat actions. Such systems have been used successfully before. One of the tricks to it is that you dont allow giant aoe like abilities to simply refil the bar. lol. Which, btw, sometimes does and sometimes does not happen right now with energy balls randomly droping from defeated enemies. 

 

Right now you can go into areas and energy balls drop like candy from a busted piniata so you have so much power you can spam abilities like crazy, other times enemies barely drop them so youre without power for a while. Such a system puts much of your tactical ability use abilities at the whim of luck.

 

Energy gain based on combat actions is a more consistant and predictable system than energy ball drops. Its also more reasonable for long range attackers who currently have to move forward at some point to collect the orbs. As Warframe continues to grow in weapon type and area size/variety they will need to cater better to snipers and casters.

 

My issue with cooldowns is that they place some of the priority of when you do your move onto whats ready. This takes away some of the freedom of choice of which powers you rely on(that I mentioned in my earlier post).

 

Now, for players who want to build themselves to be more of the caster type, simple power efficiency and power capacity do a lot. But because of the energy ball systen a lot of luck is brought into play. Effective use of powers may have no baring on how often they can cast in any given encounter, that is unfortunate.

 

 

 

That's not paying for power.  That's paying for progression and convenience, Ie the main way that all f2p games make money.  Please think before you type out nonsense like this.

 

Is convienece not often the road to faster progression? Is progression not power?

These terms are too interchangable to come in here with the "please think before you type out nonesense" kind of smugness. 

 

I'll say this once, If you'd like to continue to have this debate I'll be happy to. But I will not tollerate insults.

if youre goal is to be rude,condiscending and feel superior you can do that without my involvement. So...

We will either contunue this discusion as genteman or not at all.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

The current system lends to a sense of resource scarcity that promotes the game's theme in missions.  Limited resources are an alternative to a time limit; they encourage players to progress towards mission completion or face an impending consequence.  

Resource scarcity is not the consistant result. In fact, the results are specifically not consistant.

 

On any given encounter I may have a LOT of ammo and a LOT of energy so I can spam down hordes of badies with little effort.

This lacks challenge and it looses all need of efficiency.

On any other given encounter I may have little to no ammo or energy and be forced to face tough enemies with weaker weapons and no powers.

Extra challenging, sometimes too much and lacks variety of combat options.

 

This isnt simply about individual player experiance. Where one may have encountered abundance and another encountered scarcity.

This is largely about the developer needing to have some sort of baselines to build encounter difficulty around. With luck causing such wide swings in player character capability it is harder to do that than if player character capability was more cosnistant.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Ronyn

[Aggh]

No idea what that is supposed to mean. lol

 

You must be new to the internet.

 

Loot tables based on enemy difficulty would put things more in line with projected ammo usage than drop rate based on something else.

An enemy that requires a lot of bullets to kill should drop more ammo than an enemy that requires less. Its logical.

No, it's not logical.  Your weapons should be more powerful by then so you shouldn't need more ammo.

 

As for why I dont like different ammo types. Its not entirelly about fear of running out. Its about how useless it is to find ammo for weapons you cant use. In a game where I can change weapons it makes sense, in a game where I cant what is the point? Its just useless clutter on the screen. How is that efficent use of assets? Consolidating ammo and lowering the drop rate to compensate for the useless drops is just smarter all around.

The only valid point you've made.  But they could change loot tables based on what weapons players are using.  This would still preserve the ability to be able to point out ammo for team mates while reducing unnecessary clutter.

 

Many other games that have the whole "luck" of ammo drops also have a more versitile armemment system. If I run out of shotgun ammo I can simply drop the shotgun and pick up whatever weapon is lying around. Not the case here. Different set up, different problems, different solutions are required.

Or they just have you switch to another weapon if you've run out.  Games have been getting by with random ammo drops for decades without having weapon pick ups.

I didnt say "I want to use powers all the time and not have to worry about choosing when to use abilities"

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

It doesn't matter if you didn't say it, that's the environment that your suggestion would create.

 

And no, there is no reasson to assume it would be hard to balance energy gain from combat actions. Such systems have been used successfully before. One of the tricks to it is that you dont allow giant aoe like abilities to simply refil the bar. lol. Which, btw, sometimes does and sometimes does not happen right now with energy balls randomly droping from defeated enemies.

 

It doesn't matter since there will always be a way to exploit such a system. Every single time they introduce a new frame/new mod/ new weapon/ new power they are going to have to ask if it will make energy gain to quick/abusable. 

 

Some things can't always be predicted.  Overload and stacked range mods daisy chaining through a whole level wasn't something they caught ahead of time.  That ruined the game experience for everyone in the beta for quite a while before they managed to nerf it.  If the game picks up and the devs end up really busy, poor balance on a single newly introduced item could ruin the game for weeks potentially depending on how busy the devs are.

 

 

Right now you can go into areas and energy balls drop like candy from a busted piniata so you have so much power you can spam abilities like crazy, other times enemies barely drop them so youre without power for a while. Such a system puts much of your tactical ability use abilities at the whim of luck.

 

That's the point, since energy might go dry you need to take that into consideration before you use a power.  Thinking is not an activity that takes much luck last time I checked.

 

Energy gain based on combat actions is a more consistant and predictable system than energy ball drops. Its also more reasonable for long range attackers who currently have to move forward at some point to collect the orbs. As Warframe continues to grow in weapon type and area size/variety they will need to cater better to snipers and casters.

Already addressed earlier 

Now, for players who want to build themselves to be more of the caster type, simple power efficiency and power capacity do a lot. But because of the energy ball systen a lot of luck is brought into play. Effective use of powers may have no baring on how often they can cast in any given encounter, that is unfortunate.

 

All the caster frames have massive energy reserves and an effective power other than their ult.  If you're running dry on energy you're doing it wrong.  I don't remember the last time I was low on energy on my nyx/ember/banshee/loki

 

Is convienece not often the road to faster progression? Is progression not power?

These terms are too interchangable to come in here with the "please think before you type out nonesense" kind of smugness. 

 

I'll say this once, If you'd like to continue to have this debate I'll be happy to. But I will not tollerate insults.

if youre goal is to be rude,condiscending and feel superior you can do that without my involvement. So...

We will either contunue this discusion as genteman or not at all.

No.  Paying for power means that you're specifically buying power as an actual commodity.  This is a bad thing only if you're buying it independent of the progression system which everyone has access to.  

 

What you're saying is nonsense.  Following the logic you have presented I could say that anyone that started playing earlier is at an unfair advantage since they were able to get to a certain level of power earlier than others.  That's not the case though since anyone can get to that level of power eventually.

 

Coloring something as evil because you are not able to discern the difference between a good and bad practice does a disservice to the game you're critiquing and to the discussion at hand.  If you don't want to be called out for that, don't do it.

[Serephenne]

Resource scarcity is not the consistant result. In fact, the results are specifically not consistant.

 

On any given encounter I may have a LOT of ammo and a LOT of energy so I can spam down hordes of badies with little effort.

This lacks challenge and it looses all need of efficiency.

On any other given encounter I may have little to no ammo or energy and be forced to face tough enemies with weaker weapons and no powers.

Extra challenging, sometimes too much and lacks variety of combat options.

 

This isnt simply about individual player experiance. Where one may have encountered abundance and another encountered scarcity.

This is largely about the developer needing to have some sort of baselines to build encounter difficulty around. With luck causing such wide swings in player character capability it is harder to do that than if player character capability was more cosnistant.

It was already stated that there are tools to help manage ammo and energy levels; that doesn't eliminate the possibility of running low on either.  There are too many variables in the game for either case to be the definitive experience.  The idea is to have the potential of an extremely negative situation to be low.  There really is no baseline other than enemy level because there are too many other variables involved.  There would need to be less options and less random factors to build a universal encounter difficulty.  How would you establish this within the current system?  Or would you rather have the game changed completely?

[vieuxchat]

I was thinking about something : why not some street fighter 4 system : instead of energy you use your health. BUT ! Health used will replenish slowly. If you get hit then the remaining health you should have regained is lost. (Or you could tie some powers to stamina.)

I don't know if I'm clear : I'll use an example.

You have 100 health and use a power that costs 20 health. you're at 80 and have 20 health that should replenish in let's say 10 seconds. If you don't get hit in those 10 seconds you are at 100 health. If you get hit after 5 seconds you are at 90 health. If you're hit while you cast the power you're at 80.

That would let you combo as crazy but at a high risk.

[Ronyn]

It was already stated that there are tools to help manage ammo and energy levels; that doesn't eliminate the possibility of running low on either.  There are too many variables in the game for either case to be the definitive experience.  The idea is to have the potential of an extremely negative situation to be low.  There really is no baseline other than enemy level because there are too many other variables involved.  There would need to be less options and less random factors to build a universal encounter difficulty.  How would you establish this within the current system?  Or would you rather have the game changed completely?

My preferenced-get rid of the randomly droping energy orbs.

Energy gained from fighting and other combat actions would push the amount of energy to be more porportional with the amount and difficulty of the enemies encountered.

It also allows long ranged attackers to replenish energy without having to move up and pick up the orbs.

[Ronyn]

You must be new to the internet.

 

How about you just tell me then? lol

 

 

It doesn't matter if you didn't say it, that's the environment that your suggestion would create.

 

So no matter how the math was broken down the player would always have abundant energy and never have to conserve or spare it?

That is a complete falsehood.

 

 

Or they just have you switch to another weapon if you've run out.  Games have been getting by with random ammo drops for decades without having weapon pick ups.

 

Warframe has a static, two firearm weapon loadout. Most games with multiple ammo types have a non static loadout or the ability to carry more than two weapons at a time.

 

No, it's not logical.  Your weapons should be more powerful by then so you shouldn't need more ammo.

By diffiuclty I dont mean the scaling that happens as you go up levels, I''m talking about how there are enemy types inteded to be more difficult than others. You know how there are the cannon fodder and the ones that require more attention.

Assuming youre playing at the appropriate level of your gear-does every enemy take the same number of shots to kill?

Nope. So they should be set up to drop different amounts of ammo.

 

 

The only valid point you've made.  But they could change loot tables based on what weapons players are using.  This would still preserve the ability to be able to point out ammo for team mates while reducing unnecessary clutter.

 

That could also work. In general there is more than one solution to a problem. I have no issue with that.

Yet you have provided no negative to simplifying ammo into long gun and pistol type.

 

I see that you feel pointing out ammo for team mates is important. I am not attached to that but I respect that you are.

 

It doesn't matter since there will always be a way to exploit such a system. Every single time they introduce a new frame/new mod/ new weapon/ new power they are going to have to ask if it will make energy gain to quick/abusable. 

 

Some things can't always be predicted.  Overload and stacked range mods daisy chaining through a whole level wasn't something they caught ahead of time.  That ruined the game experience for everyone in the beta for quite a while before they managed to nerf it.  If the game picks up and the devs end up really busy, poor balance on a single newly introduced item could ruin the game for weeks potentially depending on how busy the devs are.

 

Almost every system can be exploited. Anything implemented poorly will have negative effects.

These are not specific retorts to my suggestion.

 

Obviously DE will have to tune each new warframe and power to the proper amount of potential energy collection.

Like anything, there may be unespected bugs or values, yet the end result will create a more consistant and predictable return based on proper use not luck.

Its not as though DE doesnt already have to attempt to balance new warframes with the currente enrgy mechanic.

 

 

 

That's the point, since energy might go dry you need to take that into consideration before you use a power.  Thinking is not an activity that takes much luck last time I checked.

 

You have to think in either system. Knowing when to use your energy and when to conserve it does not disapeer.

The difference is that in my system the energy returned is consistant as opposed to random. 

Either version begins with thought, but one ends with chance. With chance as the decider, when youre gearing up for the next fight youre energy reserves will now be based on whether or not an energy orb happened to fall.

That is the stage where tactics become beholden to luck.

 

Unless youre suggestion that only a system with chance as the deciding factor of how much energy you get back requires tactics....lol

 

And no, you didnt adreess my concerns about forcing ranged players to move up for orb collection.

 

All the caster frames have massive energy reserves and an effective power other than their ult.  If you're running dry on energy you're doing it wrong.  I don't remember the last time I was low on energy on my nyx/ember/banshee/loki

 

There are many times when I have an abundance of energy and the game becomes too easy as a result.

Chance can swing too hard both ways, neither is good for the experiance.

 

 

 

No.  Paying for power means that you're specifically buying power as an actual commodity.  This is a bad thing only if you're buying it independent of the progression system which everyone has access to.  

You can buy both power and faster roads to power. btw-I didnt say anything about it being a bad thing.

Also, I didnt say that "pay for power" indicates that the power can ONLY be attained through money.

Either way there is no dictionary definition of these terms. Disagreeing on what they mean is reasonable but going so far with it is not.

 

What you're saying is nonsense.  Following the logic you have presented I could say that anyone that started playing earlier is at an unfair advantage since they were able to get to a certain level of power earlier than others.  That's not the case though since anyone can get to that level of power eventually.

 

Coloring something as evil because you are not able to discern the difference between a good and bad practice does a disservice to the game you're critiquing and to the discussion at hand.  If you don't want to be called out for that, don't do it.

 

 

I made no statement about anything being an unfair advantage in the current system.

Neither paying money for things availible or having been in the game longer is an unfair advantage.

 

I didnt color anything as evil. You input your own meanings on some of the stuff I said and are now arguing with statements I never made.

 

It appears that to you "pay for power" is a derogetory term so youre responding to a percieved attack on warframe from me.

It was not a derogetory term from me. It was simply a term of clasification. While we may disagree on what the proper term is, make no mistake that I was NOT saying there was anything unfair about warframes current price model. 

Edited April 21, 2013 by Ronyn

[auxy]

Or they just have you switch to another weapon if you've run out.  Games have been getting by with random ammo drops for decades without having weapon pick ups.

You've mentioned this a few times, and it really frustrates me, because it shows how clearly you didn't read the first post. Let me repost from there:

 

Most games have enemies drop ammo, and rarely, enemies will drop ammo in WARFRAME, too. However, the ammo drop rate is too low, and the random drop rate means you may not get any ammo for your weapon. Loot chests, such as lockers, may sometimes have ammo, but frequently don't, or only have one type. In other shooter games, this isn't really a problem, because you can either

A) just pick up another weapon (Halo, Gears of War, Killzone)

B) return to a central place to refill your ammo (Borderlands, Blacklight: Retribution)

or C) carry so much ammo for so many weapons it's irrelevant (Serious Sam, Quake, Unreal).

However, none of these are the case in WARFRAME, so applying those design principles to this game is foolish.

 

The solution to this problem is obvious: consolidate the ammo pickups into a single "ammo" pickup equal to one magazine for your primary weapon. Many games have taken this route; see Mass Effect's "thermal clips". This obviates the issue of getting lots of ammo you can't use, and it also simplifies something that never needed to be complex. It's less realistic, but WARFRAME has nothing in common with reality anyway.

Edited April 21, 2013 by auxy

[VVildc4rd]

just because people have a different idea than yours does not mean a mechanic is flawed, just different. Running out of ammo shouldnt be a problem now since the ammo box costs are really low and one box completely refreshes your ammo pool. It is not a flawed mechanic since there are no bugs in it. A flawed mechanic would something that will not work at all, even bugs cannot make a mechanic flawed simply because a mechanic is a thought process, and what we experience are actually systems. For instance, jump mechanic "press the jump key to jump while on the ground" system, check if player in on the ground and is allowed to jump, if so then jump. I woudl say the bug on that would be that they trace downward from the players center position for a certain distance, thus in certain slopes the check never hits anything making the system wrongly think player is in the air, happens at most with abilities though.

 

This is beta testing, now if you ever been through an alpha phase you would understand that this is an ever growing beta. It is a lot different than say a COD beta. Levels keep expanding, mobs need adjustments, weapon introduction needs balancing, and all these things are being done while checking everything in alpha that needed fixing. I gotta say I admire the amount of things that do get fixed considering everything thats going on.

 

Yes I would change things about the game, but I am not gonna trash a beta because of issues that are work in progress.

 

Thanks to the Dev's, HR, and IT's for keeping this running the way it has so far.

[Aggh]

 

You've mentioned this a few times, and it really frustrates me, because it shows how clearly you didn't read the first post. Let me repost from there:

 

Most games have enemies drop ammo, and rarely, enemies will drop ammo in WARFRAME, too. However, the ammo drop rate is too low, and the random drop rate means you may not get any ammo for your weapon. Loot chests, such as lockers, may sometimes have ammo, but frequently don't, or only have one type. In other shooter games, this isn't really a problem, because you can either

A) just pick up another weapon (Halo, Gears of War, Killzone)

B) return to a central place to refill your ammo (Borderlands, Blacklight: Retribution)

or C) carry so much ammo for so many weapons it's irrelevant (Serious Sam, Quake, Unreal).

However, none of these are the case in WARFRAME, so applying those design principles to this game is foolish.

 

The solution to this problem is obvious: consolidate the ammo pickups into a single "ammo" pickup equal to one magazine for your primary weapon. Many games have taken this route; see Mass Effect's "thermal clips". This obviates the issue of getting lots of ammo you can't use, and it also simplifies something that never needed to be complex. It's less realistic, but WARFRAME has nothing in common with reality anyway.

 

I did read the first post.  And it's full of crap.  If you're killing stuff, the floor is littered with ammo drops.  And as long as you're not under leveled and don't suck, you won't run out of ammo.

 

Also, a universal ammo pickup as you're suggesting is just a visual change.  They'd lower the ammo drop rate to make up for the fact that only one ammo type is dropping and you'd still be whining about ammo. 

 

You're mad about the ammo drop rate and you're suggesting a system change instead of the obvious solution to you sucking, which would be to increase the drop rate for primary ammo (which you can get with ammo scavenger artifacts already) , which is essentially what the system you're suggesting would do if they replaced all ammo drops with a single ammo pick up.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Aggh

[Aggh]

Double posting because the forums apparently have a limit on how quotes you can have in a single post.

 

 

 

How about you just tell me then? lol

Do you not know what google is too?

 

 

So no matter how the math was broken down the player would always have abundant energy and never have to conserve or spare it?

That is a complete falsehood.

If the player has complete control over how and when they regain energy they will always make sure they have it.  The current spawning system would always allow people to farm up some energy for when they need it, and your system suggestion would allow that to be done a lot more easily than now.

 

 

 

 

By diffiuclty I dont mean the scaling that happens as you go up levels, I''m talking about how there are enemy types inteded to be more difficult than others. You know how there are the cannon fodder and the ones that require more attention.

Assuming youre playing at the appropriate level of your gear-does every enemy take the same number of shots to kill?

Nope. So they should be set up to drop different amounts of ammo.

 

Then say what you mean.  Even then, more enemies mean more drops.  Each faction has a couple of units that can be killed with little or no ammo for a reason.

 

 

That could also work. In general there is more than one solution to a problem. I have no issue with that.

Yet you have provided no negative to simplifying ammo into long gun and pistol type.

 

I see that you feel pointing out ammo for team mates is important. I am not attached to that but I respect that you are.

The difference isn't important enough.  You'd still be whining about how ammo drops are too random since they'd have to lower the drop rate on ammo to make up for the fact that there's only one type of ammo for primaries.

I'm not attached to pointing out ammo, but a lot of people in discussions on ammo drops (which btw is not a new discussion and has been done in detail piles of times) are.

 

 

Almost every system can be exploited. Anything implemented poorly will have negative effects.

These are not specific retorts to my suggestion.

 

Obviously DE will have to tune each new warframe and power to the proper amount of potential energy collection.

Like anything, there may be unespected bugs or values, yet the end result will create a more consistant and predictable return based on proper use not luck.

Its not as though DE doesnt already have to attempt to balance new warframes with the currente enrgy mechanic.

 

It adds unnecessary complexity that constantly opens the door to further imbalance and exploitation.  It adds an extra layer of required balance since every single weapon and mod will have to be taken into account with how they'll affect energy balance, which is not an issue in the current system.

 

You have to think in either system. Knowing when to use your energy and when to conserve it does not disapeer.

The difference is that in my system the energy returned is consistant as opposed to random. 

Either version begins with thought, but one ends with chance. With chance as the decider, when youre gearing up for the next fight youre energy reserves will now be based on whether or not an energy orb happened to fall.

That is the stage where tactics become beholden to luck.

Always having the ability to regain energy makes energy conservation much less important.  Anyone with an energy siphon has already seen that in game.

 

Unless youre suggestion that only a system with chance as the deciding factor of how much energy you get back requires tactics....lol

If you don't understand how the possibility of resource scarcity can dictate how players need to use skills, this conversation probably isn't worth continuing.

 

And no, you didnt adreess my concerns about forcing ranged players to move up for orb collection.

It's a non issue.  The game is never going to encourage people to sit back and camp. People that want to do that will just have to kill stuff and then they move up and pick up the energy.

 

There are many times when I have an abundance of energy and the game becomes too easy as a result.

Chance can swing too hard both ways, neither is good for the experiance.

Lol, you're illustrating the importance of energy conservation while whining about the system.  Nice job contradicting your earlier arguments.  You'll only ever run out of energy if you don't conserve it properly.

 

 

 

You can buy both power and faster roads to power. btw-I didnt say anything about it being a bad thing.

Also, I didnt say that "pay for power" indicates that the power can ONLY be attained through money.

Either way there is no dictionary definition of these terms. Disagreeing on what they mean is reasonable but going so far with it is not.

 

I made no statement about anything being an unfair advantage in the current system.

Neither paying money for things availible or having been in the game longer is an unfair advantage.

 

I didnt color anything as evil. You input your own meanings on some of the stuff I said and are now arguing with statements I never made.

 

It appears that to you "pay for power" is a derogetory term so youre responding to a percieved attack on warframe from me.

It was not a derogetory term from me. It was simply a term of clasification. While we may disagree on what the proper term is, make no mistake that I was NOT saying there was anything unfair about warframes current price model.

 

Paying for power has always been a derogatory term in gaming, you not thinking that merely means you're talking about something you don't fully understand.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Aggh

[kiwicanfly]

@.@ giant wall of text

 

but any ways,

 

 Bump

[Drusus]

 

EDIT:  Retracting my statement here as I completely mis-allocated a statement by Ronyn to auxy as a contradiction of prior statements made.  My apologies to both parties, my mistake.  Bloody quote system being a bit broken is making some of the back and forth harder to allocate properly.  When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong, apologies.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Drusus

[Tsukinoki]

Also, a universal ammo pickup as you're suggesting is just a visual change. They'd lower the ammo drop rate to make up for the fact that only one ammo type is dropping and you'd still be whining about ammo.

This.

They either dont realize, or dont care, that updating the game to "modern standards" wont fix the issue. All they seem to care about is simply making the game as generic as any other shooter out there currently which I would hate to see happen. Either that or they want the game to become a lot easier than it currently is and make it truly impossible to run out of ammo no matter how much you spray and pray.

With universal ammo dropped at the rate that normal ammo boxes do now the game would become a cakewalk, even more so than currently, and quite boring. As it stands now I have to aim my guns, which I dont think that the people going for this system knows how to do yet.

You're mad about the ammo drop rate and you're suggesting a system change instead of the obvious solution to you sucking, which would be to increase the drop rate for primary ammo , which is essentially what the system you're suggesting would do if they replaced all ammo drops with a single ammo pick up.

They either need to learn how to aim properly, learn to bring the right weapon against the right enemies, such as to not use the grakata against grineer, or learn how to properly conserve their ammo through using more abilities and melee attacks, as well as switching between their rifles and pistols more.

[Ronyn]

Do you not know what google is too?

 

Heaven forbid you bother just answering the question..lol

How is you throwing up the dont care cup relevent to me sharing my background with someone who has some similarities in theirs? 

Cause you know, I wasnt directing that info at you so making you care was not the goal.

Honestly, its a bit odd and unnecessarily negative for you to open your post that way.

What you hoped to get across with it is still unknown to me.

 

 

If the player has complete control over how and when they regain energy they will always make sure they have it.  The current spawning system would always allow people to farm up some energy for when they need it, and your system suggestion would allow that to be done a lot more easily than now.

 

In what way does my system make it easier to exploit? That is as unexplained claim.

 

 

If you don't understand how the possibility of resource scarcity can dictate how players need to use skills, this conversation probably isn't worth continuing.

 

Resource scarcity is still possibility in my system. You have somehow decided that people will never have to worry about it if it comes from combat actions yet that is directly related to how much you gain for what actions.

 

Always having the ability to regain energy makes energy conservation much less important.  Anyone with an energy siphon has already seen that in game.

 

Seeing the ground litered with energy orbs makes energy conservation less important. Sometimes that is the result on the current system.

Mechanics like energy syphon create a cause and effect loop. Again, depending on the math, will not trivialize energy conservation or smart use of powers.

 

And I have to point out that anyone who has experianced energy sysphon in the current game was dealing with both the energy syphon AND orb drops. 

Obviously, stacking two different energy gain systems on top of each other are going to yield very different results than just one.

 

 

 

Then say what you mean.  Even then, more enemies mean more drops.  Each faction has a couple of units that can be killed with little or no ammo for a reason.

I said "more difficult", which you took to mean from scaling instead of proportionate.

Both were possibilities and you chose to focus on the one that was more easily torn down. 

 

And yes, some enemies are meant to take little ammo to kill..that would be the cannon fodder I referenced.

The fact that they take less ammo to kill would be why they should be set up to give less ammo upon defeat then an enemy who takes way more.

And just so we are clear-I'm not saying every kill should result in ammo drops.

I'm not against ammo tables and even some amount of chance.

The idea is to keep it within a certain margin so i doesnt create wide swings in its effect on the experiance.

 

 

The difference isn't important enough.  You'd still be whining about how ammo drops are too random since they'd have to lower the drop rate on ammo to make up for the fact that there's only one type of ammo for primaries.

 

LOL. I'm not "whinning"..hilarious attempt at making critiques,complaints and suggestions sound like something else.  

While they'd lower the drop rate for ammo with the removal of multiple types, depending on the math, it would solve my concerns or it wouldnt.

Either way, dont speak for how I'll respond to something. If there is anything that you are not qualified to comment on its that.

 

 

It adds unnecessary complexity that constantly opens the door to further imbalance and exploitation.  It adds an extra layer of required balance since every single weapon and mod will have to be taken into account with how they'll affect energy balance, which is not an issue in the current system.

 

 

Youve provided no backing why it would be more prone to exploitation.

 

As for what it would take to balance such a system, there are a few ways to aproach it.

Some of those ways would not require an additional layer not already present.

Example-Warframes, weapons and abilities are already balanced around the capability to defeat enemies.

If energy gain was also balanced around enemies defeated it would fit onto the exsisting balance model with minor adjustment. 

 

 

Lol, you're illustrating the importance of energy conservation while whining about the system.  Nice job contradicting your earlier arguments.  You'll only ever run out of energy if you don't conserve it properly.

 

You see this as a contradiction because you chose to ignore the initial statements I made about energy.

As I said from the very begining, too much energy is also bad. It's often not proportional to the encounter.

 

Youve tried to represent my concerns as me saying "I dont have enough energy"....that was never the focus or message in my posts.

The point is that because of a luck based system it can swing wide in either direction.

 

It's a non issue.  The game is never going to encourage people to sit back and camp. People that want to do that will just have to kill stuff and then they move up and pick up the energy.

 

"Sit back and camp" is not always the same thing as a long range specialist fighting in their prefered range.

And why have a sniper rifle if youre not able to be a long range specialist?

We also have a lot of people asking for bigger areas that allow for different ranges of combat followed by DE saying there will be some. And they have expanded the number of larger, more open areas.

How far that will go is unknown, but having an energy system that directly limits the viability of long range specilist recovering energy will be confining to DE's options.

 

 

Paying for power has always been a derogatory term in gaming, you not thinking that merely means you're talking about something you don't fully understand.

 

Paying for power, and all of the other "Pay2" and "Payfor" terms have always been classifications.

While they commonly, but not always, have negative connotations associated with them their accurate defined terms remain somewhat fluid.

Additionally, where some will use the terms as a reason why the game is bad another will defend that very method as a reasonable way to make money.

 

 

Look, you like the current energy system. Thats fine.

But one cant pretend that luck doesnt affect how many orbs are around the room, which in turn affects how many powers you get to use in the next exchange.

That is how it is. You like it, fine. I dont. whoopdido.

 

You dont like my idea. Thats fine.

But pretending it will inherently lead to free and constant energy and a bunch of exploits...

like it cant or hasnt already worked in other games, is such an exageration.

I like it, You dont. Whoopdido.

 

It really isnt that hard to comprehend that people want different energy systems.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

This.

They either dont realize, or dont care, that updating the game to "modern standards" wont fix the issue. All they seem to care about is simply making the game as generic as any other shooter out there currently which I would hate to see happen. Either that or they want the game to become a lot easier than it currently is and make it truly impossible to run out of ammo no matter how much you spray and pray.

With universal ammo dropped at the rate that normal ammo boxes do now the game would become a cakewalk, even more so than currently, and quite boring. As it stands now I have to aim my guns, which I dont think that the people going for this system knows how to do yet.

 

 

LOL. I never said anything about these changes being about "modern standards". Thats the OPs perspective.

I make suggestions based on what I feel is best for warframe based on the mechanics and overall goals of warframe.

We may disagree, and thats fine.

 

Now how does standardized ammo make warframe generic? Since there are many shooters with multiple ammo types as well as shooters with standardized ammo types, how is either direction any more or less generic than the other? Just doesnt add up. 

 

The claim that universal ammo drops would provide people with too much ammo and in turn make the game too easy is simply false.

Whether universal ammo or not, the ammount that drops is what will results in too much or too little ammo.

 

The Curent system is so beholden to luck that some missions, even with a constant one shot/one kill on the Paris bow I'll end up out of sniper ammo for a chunk of the mission. Yet find piles of shotgun and assault rifle ammo around. lol

Next mission I'll be almost constantly full of ammo for whatever weapon I'm using so ammo conservation never even has to cross my mind.

I can spew bullets wildly like I'm under the influence and never run out. lol

 

Like I keep saying-

The amount of luck affecting the current system swings too hard both ways.

That is what I am looking to get under control.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

 

 

 

EDIT:  Retracting my statement here as I completely mis-allocated a statement by Ronyn to auxy as a contradiction of prior statements made.  My apologies to both parties, my mistake.  Bloody quote system being a bit broken is making some of the back and forth harder to allocate properly.  When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong, apologies.

 

LOL. Ok gotcha...

for a second there I was like "Whaaaaaat?"

[Drusus]

LOL. Ok gotcha...

for a second there I was like "Whaaaaaat?"

Entirely my bad Ronyn.  I may not agree with your point of view, but I'm not going to make stuff up to argue against you.

 

Sorry about that.

[Ronyn]

Entirely my bad Ronyn.  I may not agree with your point of view, but I'm not going to make stuff up to argue against you.

 

Sorry about that.

All good. Agreeing with me is most certainly not required. :)

Being someone who wont make up, twist or otherwise misreperent my point of view is definitely worthy of applause.

I tip my hat to you.

[auxy]

EDIT:  Retracting my statement here as I completely mis-allocated a statement by Ronyn to auxy as a contradiction of prior statements made.  My apologies to both parties, my mistake.  Bloody quote system being a bit broken is making some of the back and forth harder to allocate properly.  When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong, apologies.

Thank you! Very good of you. 

 

The forum software here is just awful! It seems like a misguided attempt at a "web 2.0" forum experience, but it just doesn't work very well. I tried it in Chrome and Maxthon, both Webkit and Trident rendering engines, and it barely works in Chrome and almost doesn't work at all in Trident. Very frustrating!

 

 

Wildcard--The majority of my complaints are not things I would expect to be "beta" issues. I absolutely *have* been through every phase of game development, from conceptualization to post-release, and I know that some or all of these things may change. However, "beta" stage is normally one of polishing and finishing work; by "beta", the conceptualization and design stages are normally done and things get tweaked, rather than changed dramatically.

 

I know it's very late in the game to be suggesting big changes like this, but I can only suggest things as early as I come on. The system as it is now is broken, and it needs fixing. As we've discussed in the thread, there are a lot of way to do this, but something needs to be done.

 

I am not "trashing" the beta; I actually think the game is great, and that's why I so strongly want it to be better.You comment that a bug-free mechanic is not a "flawed" mechanic (when a mechanic cannot have bugs, only the implementation of said mechanic), and then you yourself go on to note that a "mechanic" is a thought process -- I don't understand? Your argument seems to lack internal consistency. I'd be happy to read an explanation, but please try to make your points a little more salient and a little less argumentum ad hominem. Thanks for posting!

 

Aggh--Your more recent posts come off as angry trolling more than well-defined arguments. An example:

I did read the first post.  And it's full of crap.  If you're killing stuff, the floor is littered with ammo drops.  And as long as you're not under leveled and don't suck, you won't run out of ammo.

Not only is your statement false -- I played several lower-level missions last night where I ran out of ammo for both my weapons, even after changing to my LATO pistol -- it's offensive and presumptory.

 

I don't "suck". I am actually very skilled at FPS games on the PC; I've been playing them online since Quake III Arena and I was very involved in the Rocket Arena 3 scene. I know when you don't have a problem that someone else is having, it's weird and confusing; trust me, I know. I have been on the other side of this argument, where a user consistently says there is a problem, and I haven't been able to reproduce it.

 

There are a lot of things that can add up to make a problem like this. I was fighting Grinneer, who are heavily armored, and I was solo, against very large groups. Grinneer can be difficult to melee effectively, since they are overhwhelmingly ranged enemies -- not to mention the spawns were wacky; in one mission, I was getting 4-5 commanders PER SPAWN! It was nuts. I was getting unlucky on my ammo drops, too, for sure.

 

However, with either weapon, I was consistently dropping an enemy every 3/4 of a second. Fighting at this level and then being forced to use two revives simply because I just don't have ammo shouldn't happen. I'm sorry.

 

I know it's easy to assume that I'm frustrated because I'm bad at the game, but it's really quite the opposite -- I'm frustrated because I'm very, very good at the game. (╹◡╹)

Edited April 21, 2013 by auxy

[dEEkAy2k9]

sometimes, this game just wants to kill you as hard as it can be.

 

just started a mission with trinity, the first door i opened was one of those u need 2 people (i was soloing). the moment i opened that door and i was able look through the crack as it opened, i got switched by one of those pesky commanders right infront of 2 heavy gunners, and a few other grineers WITH SHIELDS.

 

they just instantly killed me without me being able to do ANYTHING.

 

Back to the Topic:

 

Yes, this game really needs some more fine tuning concerning the ammo droprates or dropcounts.

There are a few weapons with which you cannot run out of ammo just because the have so much damage per bullet and every damn enemy seems to drop ammo for that weapon. (mostly the shotguns).

A few other weapons (gorgon, braton, dual viper, afuris) just chew down your ammo in NO TIME without doing alot of damage to your enemies.

Balancing out the ammo drops or ammounts you get by picking up certain ammo packs has to be done.

 

Trinity, as much as i love her, kinda breaks game balance pretty hard when it comes to the energy management.

Right now, my trinity got 375 max energy and once i got over 200 i cannot drop below that ammount of energy, AND i can keep my team always full on energy, resulting in some really strange tactis.

 

Ash just wombocombo-jumping-around with hits 4th ability, killing everything instantly and getting back to his point of starting without loosing any energy.

Rhino tanking the whole friggin map forever with his iron skin (or even myself with link).

Banshee just damages the area around her and gets energy back while doing that (being invincible too)

I believe there are more combos like that, but that's all i saw until now.

 

Don't nerf warframes or weapons, buff enemies to be more of a challenge. Once you reach a certain level ingame (your own experience and if you get your hands on a few weapons you really can handle), this game just gets TOO easy.

[Tetsmeha]

Ash just wombocombo-jumping-around with hits 4th ability, killing everything instantly and getting back to his point of starting without loosing any energy.

Rhino tanking the whole friggin map forever with his iron skin (or even myself with link).

Banshee just damages the area around her and gets energy back while doing that (being invincible too)

I believe there are more combos like that, but that's all i saw until now.

 

Hate to go off topic, but I play ash all the time and prefer using maxed smokescreen with continuity mod and run around using dual weapons charge attacking everything. I can kill around 10-18 grineer if i'm lucky, and it only costs 35 energy so it's pretty effecient. Smokescreen can also give invulnerability while stunning enemies around him if it's timed right.

[Afebrile]

I would love to see what the OP brought up to be addressed, especially the energy part.

 

From what I've experienced with the current energy and ability system, it encourages people to save energy for and specialise in only 1 or 2 abilities and due to being able to use the same fully upgraded abilities over and over, it trivalises the game. A good example of this would be loki using max level cloak with duration increase, power efficiency, maximum power, and power regeneration. You can go around slaughtering or avoiding everything with ease and can take down bosses without any risk. And why even bother wasting energy on anything but cloak and decoy?

 

This game would be a lot more enjoyable if the ability system encouraged variety. That way we could actually utilise all our abilities, not save all our energy and only use it on a single powerful one.