Requesting: An Unsticking Command For People Who Spawn Outside The Map Or Under The Map

[DaganEldr]

Before I joined the design side of things I was in QA for over 6 years (not at DE). 4 of that as Manager and one of my main tasks was to set up a auto bug report feature like this for various beta tests. Let me make this very clear: Auto Bug Reporting (under which an unstuck would fall) is very situational and by far not as useful as you think.

 

Especially for level bugs us designers rely on user input. Ok, fine, I now have a screenshot of some sorts, with map coords that make sense if I am lucky. Cool. I still have no idea what exactly happened, how to reproduce the problem and you know the best part? The vast majority of people (usually over 80% from past experience) when confronted with a text input field upon using something like /bug or /stuck will never put anything in that field! So now I am none the wiser after crawling through 8 million screenshots without any info, I wasted a lot of dev time and I couldn't fix anything.

 

I understand everyone's frustration about this but when you ask for solutions don't storm to something that isn't that much of a saviour as you would think.

I could understand where auto bug reports would be a problem there. Not to mention that the already busy devs would suddenly be getting a barrage of bug reports from things like that, where as those sent by fans would allow for at least a LITTLE more time to work with a bug, and you may not get the same report so repetitiously. This is why I was initially thinking of a warp point that would prevent players from losing their progress, but it would still give them the motivation to come to the forums with a report. (As a sidenote on the topic, a moderator edited the title of my post to something that KIND of deviates from what I was implying in the subject. Mine wasn't because I got stuck under or outside the map, but rather how the animation scripts died in the middle of my game, but I guess this is beside the main point of being able to warp back to a prior area during these instances, so back on topic for me). :P

 

I think the biggest key here is fan motivation, honestly. Regardless of the bug report system being automated or manual,  if an unstuck/warp (without something like auto bug report) were implemented, it still really depends on whether the player wants to make the trek all the way to the forums to report it. I think if they're motivated enough, they'd happily report it, probably with the scenario in mind of "I would have lost this if they didn't add the warp points. I need to report that bug". Where as it would be no different if they were motivated without the warp points, but would probably be a little angrier because there would have been no warp point to help them keep what they earned so far, thus they would have to lose what they got, and somehow not be upset or deterred enough to want to ragequit the game let alone make the trek all the way to the forums to report it without sounding unpleasent about it.

 

For instance, you earn a good set of loot. You get stuck suddenly like I did in Gatecrash. Being stuck wouldn't necessarily stop someone from screencapping and reporting it manually in the forums just because an unstuck of some form was added. Like I said, at that point, the key is whether or not the player is motivated enough to come to the forums. And I know honestly, if something like a warp point (that couldn't be so repetitiously exploited, mind you,) were to be implemented, I'd personally be a lot more motivated to come to the forums to discuss it due to the fact that the devs were actually willing to hear out the fans once, so players might more easily believe that the devs would hear them out again (by all means, I'm not saying the devs ignore the fans at all. I'm just stating what I think might help with fan communication for the fact I know so many friends that used to play Warframe, and quit it sheerly because of bugs like the one I ran into, and it saddens me because it's a truly great game).

 

Woo! Sorry for the wall of text! :)

Edited September 29, 2014 by DaganEldr

[Lactamid]

-snip-

Have you ever tried putting a respawn delay after the unstuck + text input?

Ie. someone gets stuck, there is now a 30 sec - 1 min delay with a text window. No matter what a player does, it will take this time so they can just as well type something.

 

As a hidden feature there is also a "curse word bucket" - for every curse word there is a 1 plat fee. You could be so rich :D

[DaganEldr]

Have you ever tried putting a respawn delay after the unstuck + text input?

Ie. someone gets stuck, there is now a 30 sec - 1 min delay with a text window. No matter what a player does, it will take this time so they can just as well type something.

 

As a hidden feature there is also a "curse word bucket" - for every curse word there is a 1 plat fee. You could be so rich :D

Hahahaha, I gotta admit, the spoiler bit made me laugh so hard! :P But yeah, the minute pause might be a useful addition as well, but it makes me curious as to how one would get something like that to function on coop missions when someone is playing publicly. For instance, what if the rest of the team fails/completes the mission within that time? Don't take this as badgering your idea, it's interesting. :) I'm just trying to figure out the range of solutions there may be for said occurences, that way it wouldn't bug out worse on someone trying to type as a mission is completed or what not.

[Killerkarpfen]

Have you ever tried putting a respawn delay after the unstuck + text input?

Ie. someone gets stuck, there is now a 30 sec - 1 min delay with a text window. No matter what a player does, it will take this time so they can just as well type something.

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

[Lactamid]

Hahahaha, I gotta admit, the spoiler bit made me laugh so hard! :P But yeah, the minute pause might be a useful addition as well, but it makes me curious as to how one would get something like that to function on coop missions when someone is playing publicly. For instance, what if the rest of the team fails/completes the mission within that time? Don't take this as badgering your idea, it's interesting. :) I'm just trying to figure out the range of solutions there may be for said occurences, that way it wouldn't bug out worse on someone trying to type as a mission is completed or what not.

I kind of found the giant flaw in my design midway, but I still had to ask :P

While this could work in single player it might not be optimal if you need to time things with allies. The option is you die though, so maybe. Idk.

[DaganEldr]

I kind of found the giant flaw in my design midway, but I still had to ask :P

While this could work in single player it might not be optimal if you need to time things with allies. The option is you die though, so maybe. Idk.

Initial ideas themselves may not be particularly shiney as is, but it's things like this idea that help create new ideas for fixes, or at the very least, work arounds that allow time for fixes to be had. :) There's no harm in brainstorming! But for the idea itself, as is, I think it would be more of a make or break when nothing else works for someone.

[Lactamid]

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

The other side is they die and lose a revive :P

You are the great hero saving them, you only require their input in return. Haha. Yeah I saw were this was going midway, but I still had to ask, hence the spoiler ;)

 

You could possibly create a "warning point" system for bad input dissabling the unstuck for players that doesn't provide any info.

Still generates alot of work though. And some people may type "don't know what happened" or equal.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Lactamid

[Xriborg]

Before I joined the design side of things I was in QA for over 6 years (not at DE). 4 of that as Manager and one of my main tasks was to set up a auto bug report feature like this for various beta tests. Let me make this very clear: Auto Bug Reporting (under which an unstuck would fall) is very situational and by far not as useful as you think.

 

Especially for level bugs us designers rely on user input. Ok, fine, I now have a screenshot of some sorts, with map coords that make sense if I am lucky. Cool. I still have no idea what exactly happened, how to reproduce the problem and you know the best part? The vast majority of people (usually over 80% from past experience) when confronted with a text input field upon using something like /bug or /stuck will never put anything in that field! So now I am none the wiser after crawling through 8 million screenshots without any info, I wasted a lot of dev time and I couldn't fix anything.

 

I understand everyone's frustration about this but when you ask for solutions don't storm to something that isn't that much of a saviour as you would think.

 

80% of people not filling anything out is better than the likely 99% of people who won't bother reporting it at all. At least you're getting something.

 

People won't report anything when using the /stuck feature? Make it mandatory input. Yes, you'll get gibberish sometimes but it'll prompt responses. Just reporting the coordinates alone without screenshots will give you a good indicator of where the real problem spots are that are snagging players often. From there, I imagine doing something drastic like going in and trying to reproduce the issue should be fairly simple.

 

I've been in software development. I'd rather trust the automatic reporting from tools I've designed instead of the descriptions of your often non-technical customers. If what your getting from the auto-reporting feature YOU designed isn't useful to you, then as a designer, you should figure out why and try to enhance it. Off the top of my head, log user coordinates along with player momentum and view angle every 3 seconds for the last minute and report that data when the stuck command is used. That's not a lot of data, and you can have the client machine do the actual logging work. From having that data reported by several people, you could set up a little tool in the Warframe engine that will render traced paths of a bunch of people that got stuck in the same area. From there, reproducing it should be much easier.

 

You should take the knowledge you gained from designing an auto-bug reporting feature, and make a better one this time around. You've been through the development cycle. You know the problems. You should be in the best position to lead the effort. It can be done.

 

 

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

 

Who is nowhere near as pissed as the player who had to quit their mission and lose all of their drops because your game bugged out.

[Magnar21]

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

Better than &!$$ing off the player because they can't get to the exit due to a mandatory "we're not going to put in a respawn button, so you're just going to have to run the mission again". An in-game bug reporter, one that has fields for documentation/screenshots, would go a long way to getting you some feedback. In Firefall, I've filled out no less than 20 unique bugs that were game breaking, and NEVER would have done it through the forums. Takes too much time that way. I would much rather have the option to fill out bug reports ingame than have to go to the forums any day. Although, the forum bug reports should stay of course.

[bWild]

Just to make this easy it would be usefull to type in /stuck to get spawned at the starting point (or even save point if something like this exists) of every mission with the same status like when you fall off a cliff (abilities reset). I know that in some missions this could be terrible but it is better then waiting out a mission or aborting a mission. This would be a full automatic easy solution.

 

If a player uses the /stuck command the coordinates, warframe, weapons, abilities are saved in a database. If there is a large number of players using the stuck command on the same map you can recheck the data and see if there is a correlation between them. It's even more trustworthy then just rely on player messages, bug reports or screenshots.

 

I doubt it would be that much effort to implement some auto feature like this. It's a reset to coordinates with a database storage.

[taiiat]

80% of people not filling anything out is better than the likely 99% of people who won't bother reporting it at all. At least you're getting something.

but that's just it. it's WORSE than nothing. because you have an endless database list of reports, and they're all useless save for 'that one guy' that made a useful one.

 

it's like getting paid to shred company documents. this is not an efficient use of time or money.

[Magnar21]

but that's just it. it's WORSE than nothing. because you have an endless database list of reports, and they're all useless save for 'that one guy' that made a useful one.

 

it's like getting paid to shred company documents. this is not an efficient use of time or money.

Database programs usually have some kind of filter for blank documents. Pretty sure Access has them, and the bug report tool could have the same filtering software as DEKickbot with the added feature of blocking blank fields.

[SilentCynic]

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

 

If I picked up some rare mod I've been hunting, or if I've been busy with a long, tough, mission, I would rather wait a sec than lose all my progress/pickups anyway. Even in the case of Survival, probable defeat is better than the certain defeat of pressing Alt-F4.

[Xriborg]

but that's just it. it's WORSE than nothing. because you have an endless database list of reports, and they're all useless save for 'that one guy' that made a useful one.

 

it's like getting paid to shred company documents. this is not an efficient use of time or money.

 

They're only as useless as you make them. The volume of data with coordinates alone will tell you where your real trouble spots are. The map spot that gets 10,000 players stuck should be of a higher priority than the place with 200.

 

And that's 10,000 less players who got jipped out of their mission rewards when they got to use the unstuck command. I don't see how pissing off your players is a better strategy, even without reporting. Give us an unstuck command. Since the plan for this game seems to be eternal beta, having a reporting tool that also alleviates the damage of the bug would be a more ideal solution for everyone.

[Legonist]

So we just &!$$ed the player off because our game bugged out and now we &!$$ him off some more by having a mandatory wait time? Yeeaah, I am not so sure about that idea! :D

I can't count the number of times I have been stuck in the maps geometry or have fallen out of the map and have been forced to quit and then restart the entire mission, in total probably i have lots an hour or 2 of time due to this. Asking for being made unstuck by the staff is WAY too much work, adding in a /stuck command that you can use at any time is too much power and abuse. The best solution besides just ignoring the problem entirely is putting some type of restrictions on the /stuck command or having people wait a minute so that it is not used constantly as an abuse tool. Also there is a question of where to put the person that is stuck back into the map.

 

In the end no matter what you guys do you are going to take a lot of flack, so I suggest doing the right thing and try. If it doesn't work out you can point to your attempt and say you tried.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Legonist

[Magnar21]

I can't count the number of times I have been stuck in the maps geometry or have fallen out of the map and have been forced to quit and then restart the entire mission, in total probably i have lots an hour or 2 of time due to this. Asking for being made unstuck by the staff is WAY too much work, adding in a /stuck command that you can use at any time is too much power and abuse. The best solution besides just ignoring the problem entirely is putting some type of restrictions on the /stuck command or having people wait a minute so that it is not used constantly as an abuse tool. Also there is a question of where to put the person that is stuck back into the map.

 

In the end no matter what you guys do you are going to take a lot of flack, so I suggest doing the right thing and try. If it doesn't work out you can point to your attempt and say you tried.

This. Put in a tool that has a short delay before it revives you, make it burn a revive (but still work if you are at zero revives left) or something. Anything is better than loosing out on a rare mod just because you fell through the floor/door in the void. Worse is when you fall out, and then 30 seconds later, someone finds a rare stance that you've been hunting, and you now can't loot it ever. Being able to, at the very least, have a /kill command would be better than the alternative of restarting the game, which is all we have now.

 

Course, if the purpose is to be able to reproduce/eliminate the bugs and fix them, here is one alternative:

 

Create a barrier, or a collision mesh, that exists below every map tile. Make it like 200 M below the tileset, as to not interfere with any other tiles. If the player hits that collider, than the player's location data for the last 30seconds -2 minutes is recorded and submitted as an automatic error report. To encourage players to file the report that pops up afterwards, give players a R5 fusion core for every report that is valid and sufficiently accurate. Would provide an incentive to do more than just type random text in the box popup, or just ignore it.

 

 

EDIT: seems like recently I have fallen out a few times, and the game always kills me right after, and allows me to respawn in a safe location. Bandaid, since I have to burn a revive, but an auto-submit-location tool might allow for more automated report submission.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Magnar21

[taiiat]

having a reporting tool that also alleviates the damage of the bug would be a more ideal solution for everyone.

that, would be useful to have. a 'report a bug' button on the menu, to allow users to submit a screenshot (would take one when they press send), choose a Category, and describe it.

 

but that's still very similar to have some sort of autoreport feature or whatever anyways. you still have limited, possibly not useful, information that you MUST read.

 

automatic blanket filter and deleting

but that means you could be deleting useful information.

the problem isn't that you get it (well, okay, it is a problem that people don't describe their problems, but that's a different matter), it's that in order to improve the game, you can't blanket delete them, you MUST read all of them and try to make sense of them in order to actually have a chance at fixing issues. 

 

and that's a waste of a lot of time.

Edited September 29, 2014 by taiiat

[locojuan]

i think we can all agree that user feedback is not always a relyable source, much less "polite". if there was a fill with text report i can asure you the amount of rage, hate, and bad words would surpass the limits of what any human mind could take. let alone languages. i personaly can't think of a system that would filter all this and still be productive. the amount of man power required to either develop such system or take care of the database manualy is ovewhelming, and it doesnt seem to make things easier.

The idea of puting some kind of "safe net" under the maps seems very appealing. actually, there 2 kinds of damage that might get you kill (afik) in warframe. thats weapons and enviroment hazards. well, make this safe net a 3rd type of damage that would kill the character WITHOUT the need of using a revive. then make the palyer respawn next to the player thats hosting, just like when you join the match. that should solve the issue of using revives because of a bug. then the player would then decide whether or not to report it. it only "fixes" half of the "pay to unstuck" issue. but its something.

now, getting stuck in the tile sets because of faulty col meshes is another story. it would be very interesting to know what all of you have in common when it comes to getting stuck like this cos lemme tell you, i have over 1200 hrs of gameplay and can count the times iv got stuck with my hands. even take stuck on blade storm (and boy i blade storm a lot) and i think i could count 10 times, top. in fact, have been months since iv got stuck for the last time. It was a death orb (void trap), i just ended up inside of it and just dont know how, but that was one hell of a laggy match anyway.

 

perhaps you copter too much??

[Magnar21]

-snip-

but that means you could be deleting useful information.

the problem isn't that you get it (well, okay, it is a problem that people don't describe their problems, but that's a different matter), it's that in order to improve the game, you can't blanket delete them, you MUST read all of them and try to make sense of them in order to actually have a chance at fixing issues. 

 

and that's a waste of a lot of time.

Keep in mind that I did say "Blank deleting", not "Blanket deleting". Two different things here. Point is not having to sift through hundreds of blank (i.e., not filled out) reports, which, when combinded with various automatic data collection tools, could greatly streamline the bug report process. Makes me wish I was on the dev team (and had mastery of code besides some basic Python), cause I would love to lend my hand at programming. But anyway, filtering of meaningless text, similar to how Kickbot does it, with filtering of blank reports, would allow DE to consentrate on the important things.

 

 

i think we can all agree that user feedback is not always a relyable source, much less "polite". if there was a fill with text report i can asure you the amount of rage, hate, and bad words would surpass the limits of what any human mind could take. let alone languages. i personaly can't think of a system that would filter all this and still be productive. the amount of man power required to either develop such system or take care of the database manualy is ovewhelming, and it doesnt seem to make things easier.

The idea of puting some kind of "safe net" under the maps seems very appealing. actually, there 2 kinds of damage that might get you kill (afik) in warframe. thats weapons and enviroment hazards. well, make this safe net a 3rd type of damage that would kill the character WITHOUT the need of using a revive. then make the palyer respawn next to the player thats hosting, just like when you join the match. that should solve the issue of using revives because of a bug. then the player would then decide whether or not to report it. it only "fixes" half of the "pay to unstuck" issue. but its something.

now, getting stuck in the tile sets because of faulty col meshes is another story. it would be very interesting to know what all of you have in common when it comes to getting stuck like this cos lemme tell you, i have over 1200 hrs of gameplay and can count the times iv got stuck with my hands. even take stuck on blade storm (and boy i blade storm a lot) and i think i could count 10 times, top. in fact, have been months since iv got stuck for the last time. It was a death orb (void trap), i just ended up inside of it and just dont know how, but that was one hell of a laggy match anyway.

 

perhaps you copter too much??

 

Lag in the Void is the number one cause for me. Moving beyond a certain threshold can cause you to reach the door before it opens, your forward momentum can cause you to stick to the door (Inertia), and when the door opens, it pulls you to the side, between the rotating door and the wall. You then fall through the map. However, while this is the number one cause of fallout for me, they seem to have patched this some time ago, and I find it difficult to recall the last time I fell out in a Void map.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Magnar21

[taiiat]

Keep in mind that I did say "Blank deleting", not "Blanket deleting".

you're right, i said blanket. because you suggested a blanket filter that deletes anything with a blank description.

 

but a blanket filter is a terrible idea, as you miss potentially useful information.

you can't just blanket throw away things because some portion of it isn't useful, because there's the possibility that other parts are useful.

 

besides, what if someone just facerolls the keyboard and puts gibberish into the description box? now you're back at square one.

[Magnar21]

you're right, i said blanket. because you suggested a blanket filter that deletes anything with a blank description.

 

but a blanket filter is a terrible idea, as you miss potentially useful information.

you can't just blanket throw away things because some portion of it isn't useful, because there's the possibility that other parts are useful.

 

besides, what if someone just facerolls the keyboard and puts gibberish into the description box? now you're back at square one.

The assumption I made was that there would be a seperation between useful, player supplied info and the automatically collected data. If you have 10 text boxes (and no data collected behind the scenes, and/or is handled through a linked, but seperate, database file), but the player didn't fill out any fields, then that would be filtered out. If they put random gibberish, then there are tools that can filter that too out. Once again, the goal is to remove useless info (i.e., dfaljpfopasofmdas posakmaf aposdfiasm asofasjf ipaweoifj aiodpf sddf89023 9329j398pj9ajif 9a8fej), which is no  use to anyone. If a dictionary only recognizes 2 words out of 100, then that could be put in a seperate file to be skimmed by someone human, theoretically, since skimming 2000 blank or gibberish files takes significantly less time to sort through than trying to sort through 100,000 and delete all the junk.

 

Again, this is assuming that a tool automatically collects useful info, and has links or embedded content in it. Only content that isn't Null or random characters (which could be done with a simple google search, and using number of hits matched against a threshold) would actually be displayed to the tech/staff member. And while my knowledge of programming is quite rudimentary at best, I'm quite confident that a filter of sufficient power would remove the vast majority of DE's complaints about the use of some kind of /stuck or /kill feature.

 

Please understand that no fustration is aimed at you, but rather at loosing out on rare mods due to getting stuck a few times, with no more than "thanks for the bug report" from DE in response. And you are right, these things need to be addressed before any kind of in-game bug report or /stuck function is implemented.

[Xriborg]

First off...filtering is offered by even the most basic database. You don't DELETE blank records, you simply don't view them.

 

OK. Bottom line, I seriously can't believe that you couldn't come up with an unstuck command that would give you the data you needed to solve the problem. It's not rocket science. If you're not getting enough data with coordinates, log more information. Log whatever you need in order to identify issues. Log coordinates leading up to the moment they got stuck. Log the control inputs. Log velocities. Log camera angles. It can be done if you design it intelligently. It's your tool in your engine. You can code it to do what you need.

 

Now, if DE doesn't think it would be worth the development time, that's a different story. It's one I totally disagree with, but I can understand it at least. Other than that, if you're telling me your auto-report won't give you enough useful information then you need to redesign what your auto-report reports. Give your users an unstuck command so they can solve their own immediate issues, and give yourself the data needed to prevent people from getting stuck in the first place.

[Magnar21]

First off...filtering is offered by even the most basic database. You don't DELETE blank records, you simply don't view them.

 

OK. Bottom line, I seriously can't believe that you couldn't come up with an unstuck command that would give you the data you needed to solve the problem. It's not rocket science. If you're not getting enough data with coordinates, log more information. Log whatever you need in order to identify issues. Log coordinates leading up to the moment they got stuck. Log the control inputs. Log velocities. Log camera angles. It can be done if you design it intelligently. It's your tool in your engine. You can code it to do what you need.

 

Now, if DE doesn't think it would be worth the development time, that's a different story. It's one I totally disagree with, but I can understand it at least. Other than that, if you're telling me your auto-report won't give you enough useful information then you need to redesign what your auto-report reports. Give your users an unstuck command so they can solve their own immediate issues, and give yourself the data needed to prevent people from getting stuck in the first place.

This x1000

[DaganEldr]

First off...filtering is offered by even the most basic database. You don't DELETE blank records, you simply don't view them.

 

OK. Bottom line, I seriously can't believe that you couldn't come up with an unstuck command that would give you the data you needed to solve the problem. It's not rocket science. If you're not getting enough data with coordinates, log more information. Log whatever you need in order to identify issues. Log coordinates leading up to the moment they got stuck. Log the control inputs. Log velocities. Log camera angles. It can be done if you design it intelligently. It's your tool in your engine. You can code it to do what you need.

 

Now, if DE doesn't think it would be worth the development time, that's a different story. It's one I totally disagree with, but I can understand it at least. Other than that, if you're telling me your auto-report won't give you enough useful information then you need to redesign what your auto-report reports. Give your users an unstuck command so they can solve their own immediate issues, and give yourself the data needed to prevent people from getting stuck in the first place.

Precisely. Now I'm not gonna lie, I know next to nothing about programming games right now (which will be changing very soon), but I do understand that when it comes to games that run off of any sort of server, there are very key factors when it comes to having satisfied players, and plenty of them.

 

Communication and convenience. While 'convenience' doesn't necessarily mean 'point and click' reporting, it's still something to keep in mind because of the fact that no one likes going out of their way to say "hey, this shouldn't be here" or "this needs to be fixed", especially if the bug has already spoiled their mood. In fact, someone that had to quit because of a bug is liable to not want to play, let alone report it.

 

Communication and convenience are aspects that might not necessarily always share the same room in a game, but they should at least be kept in mind and closely associated. We have communication already. This is what the forums are for. When it comes to convenience, however, I haven't really seen the game create much in this manner yet. I'm not saying the game doesn't have any convenience factors, but there's still plenty of room for something to be fixed up.

 

Another idea that may not be as game-immersive as the idea I had, but would still help in a number of ways: Create a bug report option in the start menu that forwards a player to the bug reporting area of the forums in the same manner that clicking the in-game platinum purchase option takes us to the order form on the site. Convenience that leads to communication. While a player may not be happy that they'd have to abandon the mission afterwards, they'd still have the convenience of reporting it from the start menu, rather than making the trek all the way to the site, to the forums, through the categories, and then the sub categories.

Edited September 30, 2014 by DaganEldr

[Pandaman444]

That would be amazing,