Observations From A Veteran Player.

[CY13ERPUNK]

man...

 

OP

 

its like i want to agree with you, but dude, so many of yer points for argument are either completely wrong or just bad

 

RNG ingame is fine, sure the rarity of BITE dropping is still awful, but that has nothing to do with RNG, it has to do with the feral's drop table, same for things like osprey and crawler or bombard drops, they're rare enemies, so hard to farm, and the void is just saturated, it is what it is, the RNG code was redone a long time ago, that's old news

 

nova underpowered? srsly? mag and saryn in a bad spot? um, what? ive give you that ember is a bit too bland (her 3/4 too similar), but she's only underperforming in the sense that all frames based around dmg with little utility are underperforming, otherwise she's in the same boat as the rest of them

 

sure the market prices are awful, but if ppl are buying them, then thats what the market will bear, certainly i think goodguy DE should change them to be more reasonable, but whatevs im not in charge (from what i understand better prices could make them more $$)

 

IMHO elemental dmg is fine, certainly i think DMGv2 could still use some more work, maybe even another element or two, but the real problem is the boring/required core base dmg mods like serration/hornet/etc and the fact that weapons dont just gain +5% base dmg per rank 1-30, removing those pointless mods and giving ppl more build variety options, on the same hand, dmg scaling in general is pretty awful atm, what with godguns and bulletsponge enemies, requiring ppl to build very narrow/specific ways and making virtually all weapon utility mods that dont offer dmg worthless in comparison

 

i also agree the 'ring of planets' is awful and stupid and take away any sense of continuity the solar system previously had, whoever's idea that was is completely bonkers as far as i am concerned

 

and of course the enemy AI is VERY basic/simplistic, i know this is an area that the DEv team is working on however, and you only have to watch some footage of games like Halo/Borderlands/Destiny to see that the enemies in Warframe REALLY need some better thinking caps to at least react more appropriately 

 

/sigh

[saltshaker42]

First off, *I'm not sure you can judge the frames by group like that. There are definitely frames within each group which outperform the others, and some that crossclass; Nova for example is used less for her damage at high-tier and more for M Prime's slowing effect.

Also, **Trinity's info blurb states that frames that can heal are rare, and for the longest time she was the only one. ***I wouldn't call her useful anymore though, since she's getting nerfed into the ground. Oberon is actually useful now though, since his abilities pitch a good fight against the nightmare that is status proc at higher levels. Valid, but still not popular, since *^he doesn't have any crowd control options.

I do agree though, that some of the Damage-style frames need work. Many of them have a very, very quick dropoff when fighting against difficult content, to the point where people question why they're using ultimates at all, it's just a waste of energy.

 

Secondly, **^it was explained in a recent post by a dev or moderator that there's too many enemies onscreen at all times which would be bogged down with good AI. So, ***^instead we have the swarm mechanic, to have tons of guys shooting at us, ***^who are all really dumb.

Another thread by another user described that *^^we don't need smarter enemies, we need smarter enemy mechanics. We need more enemies that DO things, rather than enemies with specific weapons/armor stats. **^^Not knockdown, since everyone hates that, but enemy variety like Ancient Healers and Shield Drones. Enemies that cause us to aim for something first, rather than fire blindly into a crowd. ***^^There needs to be a reason why we're losing, instead of being overpowered by EnemyNumber x TooPowerful = Dead.

*I disagree. Part of being human is discriminating. Yes some frames "cross-class" but that's just that. A hybrid. They SHOULD do jobs of 2 different frames in one, but less effective/efficiently, and don't get me wrong those hybrids are definitely good. The core reason why I love Volt so much is because he dabbles in CC, dmg, gun-play, utility, and tank.

 

**Yea, that's fine. I just want more healers. It gets boring just playing as trinity and oberon (though I do prefer oberon more. If only he had a D aura slot - sigh). Technically you could say Nekros can be a healer too. He usually spawns a lot of heal orbs.

 

***Trust me, trinity is still good. You need to know how to use her, but she's still useful. Like I said though, prefer oberon.

 

*^One could say 100% radiation proc is minor CC *wink wink.*

 

**^That's understandable, but I was just putting that out there as a suggestion (as if it hasn't been suggested enough... perhaps only bosses should have good AI, idk). I listed at least 2 or 3 ways to do this. The main point I was trying to get at was that we should fail a mission because we lack skill, not because we lack the ability to cheese.

 

***^Perhaps another fix for this could be to lessen the amount of enemies spawned, or at least lessen enemies with good AI.

 

*^^I couldn't agree more. As long as difficulty increase was taken AWAY from limitless increase of stats, and focused more on things that will actually improve enemy combat efficiency/effectiveness.

 

**^^I hope they decrease the amount of enemies that use knockdown, or get rid of it completely. Game designers need to learn that cheap difficulty that knocks control out of the player's hands is NEVER a good design choice - except maybe in niche game genres.

 

***^^We need to lose because we lack the skill. Not because the enemies are unkillable/unsurvivable - what I was ultimately getting at.

 

An enemy type/platoon that will divide and conquer the tenno squads rather than overpower them with brute cheese.

Edited September 24, 2014 by saltshaker42

[Wurdyburd]

*snip of various points*

Try to keep this simple as well:

- I understand that you can group frames by type, I just don't think that they should be placed in a single group except for some very boring cases, since as you said, many frames are hybrids, which makes it difficult to say things like "Excalibur is a Damage frame", on the logic he has two damage abilities and only one support.

- I think rather than healers we need more defensive frames. A friend I got into the game is complaining that Frost is really as far is it gets, except for Volt's Electric Shield. As far as Trinity goes, I agree she's not worthless, but she's not useful either. Everyone is changing to Oberon, because he has more/better application than the frame who was designed to be a healer.

- By all means if bosses were granted superb AI I couldn't be happier. It might make fighting bosses fun instead of the major snoozefest they are now.

- About the intelligence/enemy number ratio: let's go back in a time machine back to the age of the dinosaurs back to when this game was in early closed beta. There was DRASTICALLY less enemies than there are now, and AI felt smooth and intelligent. Sniper rifles were a good weapon choice because as long as you were accurate, you could deal with the amount of enemies the game threw at you. Your suggested state of game was indeed once a thing, and DE decided it wasn't working for them and changed it into the system we have now. So ultimately we're back with many of the other issues like melee and mod system, where it was better before by some margin and DE can't afford to go back to it. As it is, all the guns coming out now are designed to kill lots of enemies in a short time; to reset back to the old AI/number system would obliterate the factions.

- I think somebody at DE played a lot of Dark Souls and thought "hey, knockdown and stuns works here, and everyone likes DS, so let's copy that", despite Dark Souls not punishing you by getting shot to death while you've been stunned. The system is not transferrable.

-I agree with your demand for skill, which is what I intended my "There needs to be a reason why we're losing, instead of being overpowered by EnemyNumber x TooPowerful = Dead" statement. As it is, the game revolves around a broken enemy difficulty curve, and player progression curve. These need to be fixed, sooner rather than later.

[saltshaker42]

Try to keep this simple as well:

- I understand that you can group frames by type, I just don't think that they should be placed in a single group except for some very boring cases, since as you said, many frames are hybrids, which makes it difficult to say things like "Excalibur is a Damage frame", on the logic he has two damage abilities and only one support.

- I think rather than healers we need more defensive frames. A friend I got into the game is complaining that Frost is really as far is it gets, except for Volt's Electric Shield. As far as Trinity goes, I agree she's not worthless, but she's not useful either. Everyone is changing to Oberon, because he has more/better application than the frame who was designed to be a healer.

- By all means if bosses were granted superb AI I couldn't be happier. It might make fighting bosses fun instead of the major snoozefest they are now.

- About the intelligence/enemy number ratio: let's go back in a time machine back to the age of the dinosaurs back to when this game was in early closed beta. There was DRASTICALLY less enemies than there are now, and AI felt smooth and intelligent. Sniper rifles were a good weapon choice because as long as you were accurate, you could deal with the amount of enemies the game threw at you. Your suggested state of game was indeed once a thing, and DE decided it wasn't working for them and changed it into the system we have now. So ultimately we're back with many of the other issues like melee and mod system, where it was better before by some margin and DE can't afford to go back to it. As it is, all the guns coming out now are designed to kill lots of enemies in a short time; to reset back to the old AI/number system would obliterate the factions.

- I think somebody at DE played a lot of Dark Souls and thought "hey, knockdown and stuns works here, and everyone likes DS, so let's copy that", despite Dark Souls not punishing you by getting shot to death while you've been stunned. The system is not transferrable.

-I agree with your demand for skill, which is what I intended my "There needs to be a reason why we're losing, instead of being overpowered by EnemyNumber x TooPowerful = Dead" statement. As it is, the game revolves around a broken enemy difficulty curve, and player progression curve. These need to be fixed, sooner rather than later.

I think there's no point in debating this any further with you, because I have to say I agree with (pretty much) all your key points.

[Wurdyburd]

I think there's no point in debating this any further with you, because I have to say I agree with (pretty much) all your key points.

Thank you, I didn't intend for it to be a debate, just sought to identify some key problems.

On both our behalfs, if I may; we and other veteran players and players with critical thinking have identified a plethora of problems, and offered many suggestions on how to fix them. Unless DE gets serious, there's not much else we can say or do.

[Zhyzak]

I agree with most of the OP's points.
The star map didn't bother me, I don't really see it as incoherent or lacking clarity. I had no problem progressing when I first started out.

I concur about the AI thing though, I've always wanted a game to have the realism of an "oh sh*t!" reaction as their comrade gets obliterated right next to them... They should have a random Courage check. Maybe they stumble away, back slams into the wall, scramble to ready their gun, or just starts running for the alarm. Might make them feel more alive, than just cannon fodder we cut down while rushing to the end goal.

> "A warframe or a weapon should never be just for Mastery."
That I wholeheartedly agree with. Especially having seen these last few updates... I couldn't care less about the Sheev, Hikou Prime or Scindo (which, while it has close to D Nikana stats, if I wanted those stats, I'd just use the better-looking D Nikana.)

> "Saryn, Mag, Nova and Ember. These girls need love else the others who are good at everything and provide amazing utility outshine them permanently"

And don't forget Zephyr in the list of lackluster female frames, although with the strange codpiece, it does look more masculine than not. (I don't mind a genderless animal theme, I just think Zephyr should've been more agile/streamlined/elegant ninja-esque like her concept art, less... bulky. It doesn't conjure "swift, predatory bird of prey" to mind, especially with the wind theme.) But that's a whole 'nother issue, back on topic...

I realize Warframe isn't the type of game where you get attached and identify with one character like in an MMO, but as a female gamer, I find myself less interested in playing the male frames, even if they have neat abilities. I'll bring a Nekros or Vauban if I have to, but every time I look at Vauban, it's like... oh hey, I'm a big slow fat dude, it's really not immersive or interesting to me at all. I started playing Warframe to be a space ninja that I could remotely identify with to some degree. I'd rather collect all the female frames, but so many are useless by comparison.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Zhyzak

[Othergrunty]

IMHO elemental dmg is fine, certainly i think DMGv2 could still use some more work, maybe even another element or two, but the real problem is the boring/required core base dmg mods like serration/hornet/etc and the fact that weapons dont just gain +5% base dmg per rank 1-30, removing those pointless mods and giving ppl more build variety options, on the same hand, dmg scaling in general is pretty awful atm, what with godguns and bulletsponge enemies, requiring ppl to build very narrow/specific ways and making virtually all weapon utility mods that dont offer dmg worthless in comparison

 

I recently thought about some perhaps "radical" ideas on how the damage creep caused by requiring serration and co. aswell as having to slap as many elemental mods into the weapon as possible to fight higher level enemies (who are scaled to withstand weapons with these flat damage increasing mods), could be fixed.

 

This is all a crackpot idea concept. So feel free to tear it appart guys.

 

First step. Serration and co.

 

Instead of increasing the damage flat, these mods boost the "damage potential" of weapons. The idea is that every weapon has a certain damage potential. To fit Scott's idea of weapon tiers, a low tier weapon could have a damage potential of up to 100% while a high tier weapon only has one of 20%.

 

Mods like Serration would then boost the weapon damage according to that potential percentage based on their level. Let's follow this idea and say that Hornet Strike when maxed at 10 mod points "wakes" damage potential up to 100% and at the start only 20% for 5 mod points.

A weapon like the Lato could then deal 36 damage per shot. A Magnus with full Hornet Strike however would only have a damage of 52.8 per shot. So basicly the Magnus still remains the more powerfull weapon and gets a slight damage increase, but the Lato would be far more capable of standing up to the mid and even High Tier counterparts with the Hornet Strike mod.

 

Players who love their low tier weapons could still reliably take them into higher missions, thanks to the damage potential, while mid and high tier weapons remain more attractive because they don't need damage potential mods as much as the low tier weapons.

 

Of course this leaves the question what should happen to corrupted damage increase mods. I have to admit the only sollution i could think of right now is that they could simply cost less mod points.

 

Second step: Physical damage type mods.

 

For this, the effect of physical damage on enemies should get more potential or have more usefull side effect.

 

On these i would simply remove the damage boost. Instead they should convert a certain percentage of the weapons damage into the mods type.

 

Let's take the Braton as example. Currently it deals 6.6 damage in each type. Now let's say that Sawtooth Clip gives a maximum of 50% damage conversion to slash damage. If installed the mod takes 50% of each damage type and converts it into slash damage.

This means the Braton would then deal 13.2 slash damage and 3.3 impact and puncture damage.

A second stage physical damage mod like Fanged Fussalid at maxed level would be able to convert damage to 100% to it's damage, but at the cost of taking twice as many mods points as Sawtooth Clip. In case of the Braton 30 slash damage.

 

These damage conversions would not add up but conflict with each other. For example installing 2 mods for 150% slash damage will not add 50% more slash damage. Instead they would simply compete with the next mods in line. For example adding a puncture conversion mod with 50% would then cause the weapon damage to be split between 3/4 slash and 1/4 puncture damage.

In case of the Braton having 22.5 slash and 7.5 puncture damage.

 

However this would come with the limitation that a conversion can only happen if the weapon in question has at least a token amount of damage in a physical category. The Bolto for example has no Slash damage, neither of the slash damage mods would therefor cause a conversion.

This would prevent weapons like the Ignis from essentialy spitting a flame of blades or needles at the enemy when installed with a slash damage mod.

 

This would encourage tweaking of the damage potential. Instead of flat increasing it.

 

Step 3. Elemental mods.

 

These are a bit more troublesome to rethink.

 

The issue is that since most weapons don't have a natural elemental damage, the elemental mods would still need to increase the damage of a weapon with their element and not conflict with the physical damage conversion idea above.

 

So perhaps elemental mods should be left as the only ones that add more damage to the weapon (including on element based weapons) besides their "damage potential" and crit chance, BUT still with limit of not being allowed to reach over 100% damage addition.

 

So basicly you can only ever get a 100% damage increase from elemental mods, even if you install a toxin and a eletric damage mod which each give 100% elemental mod damage, the total result would still only be 100% corrosion damage being added from the base damage.

 

The downside would be the mandatory need for at least one elemental mod to be added to weapons, the upside however is that only one or two mods would ever be needed for that effect. One 100% toxin damage mods would be all you need to double the damage of your weapon.

 

Possible result:

With such changes the mandatory mods could be greatly reduced. High tier weapons would only get little to no benefit from something like Serration, but it would still be a valuable option especialy from low tier weapons. Meanwhile rainbow builds would be less about damage and more about finding the right chemistry for the enemies you face.

 

More mod slots that could be used for experimentation instead of overclocking weapons with as much damage as possible.

 

Using more basic setups meanwhile could leave room open for using other mods and tweak the weapons into directions beyond damage. This would also encourage new experimental mods.

 

Likewise enemies and weapons alike would be easier to be balanced, both around damage types and around the potential damage of weapons.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Demonius88]

Regarding AI. Specters and Kubrows have poor path finding. They cannot keep up, and continuously spawning them next  me isn't a solution.

[Shifted]

I would more or less agree on everything except the microtransactions part.

 

LoL has a stupid business model.

Imagine having to grind 100+ Survivals 40 mins each to be able to get one new frame.

(Comparison to 6300IP champion price when one 40 mins game gives you like 60IP)

 

Nope.avi

[SlightVect]

man...

 

OP

 

its like i want to agree with you, but dude, so many of yer points for argument are either completely wrong or just bad

 

RNG ingame is fine, sure the rarity of BITE dropping is still awful, but that has nothing to do with RNG, it has to do with the feral's drop table, same for things like osprey and crawler or bombard drops, they're rare enemies, so hard to farm, and the void is just saturated, it is what it is, the RNG code was redone a long time ago, that's old news

 

nova underpowered? srsly? mag and saryn in a bad spot? um, what? ive give you that ember is a bit too bland (her 3/4 too similar), but she's only underperforming in the sense that all frames based around dmg with little utility are underperforming, otherwise she's in the same boat as the rest of them

 

sure the market prices are awful, but if ppl are buying them, then thats what the market will bear, certainly i think goodguy DE should change them to be more reasonable, but whatevs im not in charge (from what i understand better prices could make them more $$)

 

IMHO elemental dmg is fine, certainly i think DMGv2 could still use some more work, maybe even another element or two, but the real problem is the boring/required core base dmg mods like serration/hornet/etc and the fact that weapons dont just gain +5% base dmg per rank 1-30, removing those pointless mods and giving ppl more build variety options, on the same hand, dmg scaling in general is pretty awful atm, what with godguns and bulletsponge enemies, requiring ppl to build very narrow/specific ways and making virtually all weapon utility mods that dont offer dmg worthless in comparison

 

i also agree the 'ring of planets' is awful and stupid and take away any sense of continuity the solar system previously had, whoever's idea that was is completely bonkers as far as i am concerned.

First off, how can an opinion ever be wrong if it's just how one sees things? That's not even good intellectual fodder...That's just ignorance.

Onto the points.

 

DE made Damage 2.0 in an attempt to kill off rainbow builds with the Elemental cocktail system we have now, Rainbow builds are bigger than ever and raw damage is almost useless. We use more elementals than Nature provides because raw damage mods fall off like a rock pushed off of canyon cliff. That's problematic within itself, as you pointed out. We COULD use a simple fix just as that, however. That'd require a complete rebalance in terms of Raw Damage Mods. Something I'm sure DE wont be doing any time soon. 

. 

 

 

RNG. Many critics and people with a level head know how faulty of a system Random Number Generation is. There is a reason why several people have issues with it. Hence why I didn't directly address it, but hey. If You wanna go grind for Tranquil Cleave or Gleaming Talon for 20 hours like several other people had to, be my guest. ( And with their drop tables as SMALL as they are, 7-8 mods mind you, there's no reason why it should be that rare.)  20 minutes on apollo spawns more than enough bombards, Aint that right, mate? 

 

Lastly, 

AI.   Although DE has come out and said "We use Swarm mechanic because of sheer amount of things on screen" we know they're limited. However. If they're gonna be behind cover taking potshots, I expect them to toss more grenades, flank or even know how to move from a penta 'nade and avoid a Vauben Tesla after being hit by it twice. Not just sit around like target dummies. Or how about shield drones hide behind cover instead of floating above somethings head? Make us work to take it down. Or just give us higher priority targets like the infested make us do. (Notice how they have the smartest AI while using the swarm mechanic? Funny, isn't it...) 

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Its nice to see such topics. 

You have drawn out, perfectly, the main issues of the game. Well done, and constructive.

+1

[Xana_Skullsunder]

The power creep, and lack of viable guns are my biggest issues. I'm so tired of looking at cool guns and thinking "too bad Soma/Boltor Prime steamrolls it", because that means I'm never going to see it outside of playing with clanmates.

[Insidiatorii]

Like many who found Warframe when it was a young game, I found it through a few youtubers, liked the style of gameplay it had (Run and gun mixed with parkour along with a dash of skill) and quickly found myself signing up to be "a Space Ninja". (Late U7 and Early U8, represent. ) 

 

I was addicted, hell, still am. But as I grew to understand the game more with every patch, adapted to every change and began paying attention to the smallest change when it came to the AI. I began to realize something "DE may love their game, their playerbase, their fans and their job..But do they love every aspect of the game?"

By that, I simply mean "Do they not see how rapidly this game went from bright eyed and healthy to dull eyed and sick?" 

What do you mean by that?

 

Simply put, there are several core mechanics wrong with the game.

 

Elementals: In the olden days, these were utility that acted like Bane of mods. They were good against certain factions and gave the player the ability to experiment with a build on a weapon. As it stands now, you're forced to conform to having up three to four  Elementals to combat how broken enemy scaling is and have no room for utility mods. Something not healthy for a game revolving around PVE and gun based combat. A look at the original Borderlands will show how it was done. Realize how they still allowed you to use a regular gun that didn't have any elementals on it that still did proper damage? Then look at the sequel, that train wreck didn't give much other than "USE SLAG AND ANOTHER ELEMENTAL GUN IF YOU WANT TO STILL DO DAMAGE PAST PLAYTHROUGH ONE." 

 

I bite my thumb at thee.

 

Affinity: Good old fashioned experience that you can find anywhere from killing anything or breaking boxes...I really wish this system got a rework, I really do. Leveling weapons seem so inconsistent while having no indication of what their requirements are other than a vague little bar. Atleast with Eximi at mid level survival the progress isn't as bollocks, aye? 

 

Power creep: I really don't believe I have to type anything here, we all know how bad that issue is as we've all seen it happen first hand. 

 

Star map:Incoherent,lacking clarity, Pretty much everything a map Shouldn't be. In my honest opinion, while the current one looks better the older one had much more practicality and had a purpose other than looking like a fine polished turd. 

 

Well met....

 

Artificial intelligence: This has been bugging me for the longest. I'm pretty sure if you cut their friends in halves right next to them if you're stealthed or using Dread from a distance, they should have a reaction other than looking around confused. Just saying, if I see a dudes corpse cleaved clean in two, I'm dashing for that alarm to notify my CO before I get killed. As any soldier in a unit would. 

 

Now don't get me wrong, the AI is brilliant in several ways but at times, it seems like the only smart AI are the ones implemented in infested who are a hive mind of primal beasts....

 

Micro transactions: 370 plat to 20 US dollars...Yea, no. Just no.Especially when a gun costs 100plat+  That's just not alright. I get that the game NEEDS funding and it's employees HAVE to eat. I get that but that's just not okay in a Free to Play game based around Grinding where the boosts are useless. Look at League of Legends Model. Sure, they're an E-sport ( Or so they claim with a game that buggy) but atleast their conversion is legitimate and makes sense. They actually REWARD you for purchasing RP with reasonable character prices and other items such as Skins that are pleasing to the eyes.  or EXP boosts and IP boosts that are worthwhile, unlike credit and resource boosters...(Seriously, if you're a true vet, you don't have to farm anything except Orokin Cells and Nueral sensors. )

 

From the Wiki

 

 

And when guns or lil' Accessories run 100-200 plat if not more and accessories 40-80 respectively. it's safe to say that it's "A poor investment"  (Don't get me started on Prime Access) 

 

RNG: Too rage inducing to speak of...It needs to be looked at soon (Which I know the Coders at DE are working hard at,keep up the good work boys.) 

 

Balancing: I think we can all agree. "A warframe or a weapon should never be just for Mastery."  There are a few frames that just shine above the rest, making the others Niche or obsolete. Case point, Saryn, Mag, Nova and Ember. These girls need love else the others who are good at everything and provide amazing utility outshine them permanently 

While I firmly believe that each frame has their place, Nova was hit too hard with that change (it was for the better but without compensation, she's pretty useless) Nekros was hyped up as this one man army but now is just a pitiful rice farmer (From Warlord to Rice Farmer, the Nekros story) Saryn was pretty much gutted with damage 2.0 and Mag is just a shield tank and corpus nuker. Her damage is fine but she just doesn't fit anywhere late game. Then there's Ember, I don't think she needed to lose her tankiness for more damage with the remake. Just seems...Silly.

 

Then there's guns...Out of all the guns we have in Warframe, how many are viable and how many are there?  How many are worth building?  Why are shotguns garbage? Why are Snipers even here when Bows exist?  Why do Pistols out class Primaries? 

 

So many questions...I'd honestly want to talk to the Founders or even a Dev in a group conversation to see how they feel and see if they agree or disagree with me. 

 

 

Now to wrap things up. Do you, those within the community who love this game, do you agree or disagree with me? I believe we're all intellectuals here, we all have our views and input and honestly. I want to hear it! 

I'm a mid-vet to WF and I completely agree with what you are saying +1!