More-Game, Less Endgame- Thank You Scott!

[JoeXyo]

My point in bringing my time is WoW is not that i want that type of content in WF, but that this could be a chance for a game to be more than the percieved "endgame". I see very clearly were the fun is as i am still playing, and have finally gotten a few of my friends to see it too. We all enjoy this game I hope, and all I am asking you to do is see beyond the constrants of terms like endgame and see them for what they are, a limiter on the possiblities.

yeah, that's my whole point ;p its not hard to see which directions WF is taking if they're going to based upon farming and endless endgame that works as a spinning wheel to keep the players in jeopardy. That old trick has been used so many times, what continues to surprise me is the majority of gamer's generally doesn't see it, or to afraid to come forward about it. It's still beta and hope's are up that they can turn to a more friendly community based and not elitist. 

[vaugahn]

Conspiracy Loki got to him.

Its sad when all a newbie sees is P2W where there isn't any. I myself farmed for most everything and have only gotten prime access for the avatars nd accessories.

 

I'll admit, the way the market is set up could use some changes. New players just come in and see the plat purchases section, and then jump right on the forums all "ooh this game is pay to win it's so bad". If they had the blueprints section where the plat section is now we wouldn't have nearly as many complaints like that. 

[Kalenath]

It never ceases to amaze me when people say this game is pay to win, or that DE is just going for a cash grab. Are we not even paying attention at all?

 

No.

 

They are not. What is worse?

 

They don't care.

[Jinkaza]

yeah, that's my whole point ;p its not hard to see which directions WF is taking if they're going to based upon farming and endless endgame that works as a spinning wheel to keep the players in jeopardy. That old trick has been used so many times, what continues to surprise me is the majority of gamer's generally doesn't see it, or to afraid to come forward about it. It's still beta and hope's are up that they can turn to a more friendly community based and not elitist. 

 Agreed. Let us work then to show DE that we want more than the norm. DERebecca made a good point that a game can be thought to grow out or up, to which Scott said it could be both. We are only limited by the past if we do not learn from it. Help then to make for something better. Peace.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Jinkaza

[Jinkaza]

I want to say something. I am glad this thread is happening. Not in my wildest imagination would I have thought this would have garner so much thought from the community. Thank you for participating in the conversation. For most of us we sit at our computers and just play a game for enjoyment. But in that we have invested time and if not as celebrated as physical effort is, mental effort to achieve a set goal. Again I hope we all are here to enjoy this wonderful game. It is the game I have been looking forward to for a long time. So please, keep talking. Either here or in another thread that hits on the things you want to see. Communication is all we have in this format. So keep talking as this is a truly good thing.

[Somedude1000]

I want to say something. I am glad this thread is happening. Not in my wildest imagination would I have thought this would have garner so much thought from the community. Thank you for participating in the conversation. For most of us we sit at our computers and just play a game for enjoyment. But in that we have invested time and if not as celebrated as physical effort is, mental effort to achieve a set goal. Again I hope we all are here to enjoy this wonderful game. It is the game I have been looking forward to for a long time. So please, keep talking. Either here or in another thread that hits on the things you want to see. Communication is all we have in this format. So keep talking as this is a truly good thing.

 

If players did not fdeel the need to contribute toward improving the game, we be playing the same game we had since vanilla  with tons of new weapons we didn't even care about. 

 

While I do enjoy the game, there are countless changes to go through before we finally settle on what would actually be the best the game could be. 

 

That being said, mindless white-knighting of everything DE does is foolish, there has to be a limit on what we accept so that the game isn't half baked and continues to captivate us.  

 

 Recently i was in a game where the players told me "Be thankful DE lets you do so and so, other games dont let you do this etc" What they have failed to understand is that we don't owe anything to the devs,  we are investing time and money into something that everyone will enjoy, and we are testing their game to make sure it is good enough to meet player standards in a competitive gaming industry.

 

 

We are not playing the game or buying plat for DE to have fun with their pet project, we are investing in the game that will be a competitive player in today's f2p industry years down the line. The game is nothing without players, giving the devs the ability to take our investments and then do nothing to continue with their promises will end up being the downfall of any game.

 

So far, DE has kept its promises though, and I am excited to see what happens int he future, BUT understand that at no point in the game are we obligated to the devs, we are helping them just as much as they are catering to us, and there needs to be mutual understanding on both sides for us to truly become the ultimate

Edited October 4, 2014 by Somedude1000

[(PSN)D4rk50ul-v2]

End game is just content that challenges the top percentage of the player base, and warframe definitely will need it. This doesn't have to be content inaccessible to newer players though, it can be done using scaling systems and adding different enemy spawns based on conclave rating or a difficulty selection pre-mission.

[Mr_average]

Noooo endgame pls atleast for another 2 years. you guys have created a awesome game that should be a growing game and not have a endgame so soon

[Ritchel]

my endgame is logout

[AtenAngel]

Warframe is a great game .To have end-game first we need to have lore a completely story about everything.When lore is complete then end-game will come out by itself.The lore maybe is coming out slow and thats because we need more of enemy types more factions (good guys-bad guys) more of everything and DE is putting them in game with caution.Warframe's lore is awesome even if we dont know much about it.So end-game eventually will come one day and it will be ultra cool.Its not a usual game its an epic one,thats why veterans still play this game even if there no end-game.Lore is the key.

[Lunamaniac]

Er... just to point out to you people, End-game doesn't refer to the last update the game will have ._.

[Somedude1000]

Er... just to point out to you people, End-game doesn't refer to the last update the game will have ._.

 

I believe they are simply worried that DE may totally abandon the game once they come up with solid enough endgame to keep continued interest in the ogame for a few years , but i could be wrong

[Ailissa]

Er... just to point out to you people, End-game doesn't refer to the last update the game will have ._.

 

This.

 

I'm honestly surprised by the amount of people that have absolutely no idea what end game is.

[ElHefe]

Repeatedly in this thread the charge has been made that many do not understand the definition of "end game"

Hasn't the term become a bit plastic - at least to DE - with their introduction of the Focus system?

 

Seems to me that a max level looses its meaning when it can "evolve" with further game play

Furthermore, since a single player can have a large number of "characters" with different warframes, each of which can be independently leveled with their own distinct slot polarization and unique mod set load outs as well as each weapon where is the "ceiling"?

 

Since the idea of a "maxed out" character has gotten very fuzzy, I think it more appropriate to think of "end game" to mean more of what is the "direction" - the core motivation or purpose - of the game

Unless you are hung up on collecting or devoted to self improvement of gaming skills, I submit that game direction really means game storyline ...

 

Consequently, the how game assets are used to give some sense of a story is the real question to be answered

Soap operas are long running serials - they reexamine a limited number fundamental aspects of human nature and relations through a myriad of combinations (scenarios) with a large but finite cast of characters

Viewer loyalty is founded upon creating identification and emotional investment with one or more of the characters

 

If Warframe wants to enjoy a good long run, they need to create either:  a.) memorable characters based upon distinctive personalities or b.) engrossing story line that evokes intense anticipation for the next installment

Since Tenno don't talk - although they may have to with the introduction of Hubs - and until elements like Reputation and Focus or Sigils come into play - the distinctive personality path to game immortality seems impossible

 

That leaves DE and us with just one thing ... a story, which is really a infinite number of side stories about past and present events and a plethora of other characters heretofore unknown

 

Simply put:  Endgame = Story

End of story

Edited October 4, 2014 by ElHefe

[Lunamaniac]

Repeatedly in this thread the charge has been made that many do not understand the definition of "end game"

Hasn't the term become a bit plastic - at least to DE - with their introduction of the Focus system?

 

Seems to me that a max level looses its meaning when it can "evolve" with further game play

Furthermore, since a single player can have a large number of "characters" with different warframes, each of which can be independently leveled with their own distinct slot polarization and unique mod set load outs as well as each weapon where is the "ceiling"?

 

Since the idea of a "maxed out" character has gotten very fuzzy, I think it more appropriate to think of "end game" to mean more of what is the "direction" - the core motivation or purpose - of the game

Unless you are hung up on collecting or devoted to self improvement of gaming skills, I submit that game direction really means game storyline ...

 

Consequently, the how game assets are used to give some sense of a story is the real question to be answered

Soap operas are long running serials - they reexamine a limited number fundamental aspects of human nature and relations through a myriad of combinations (scenarios) with a large but finite cast of characters

Viewer loyalty is founded upon creating identification and emotional investment with one or more of the characters

 

If Warframe wants to enjoy a good long run, they need to create either:  a.) memorable characters based upon distinctive personalities or b.) engrossing story line that evokes intense anticipation for the next installment

Since Tenno don't talk - although they may have to with the introduction of Hubs - and until elements like Reputation and Focus or Sigils come into play - the distinctive personality path to game immortality seems impossible

 

That leaves DE and us with just one thing ... a story, which is really a infinite number of side stories about past and present events and a plethora of other characters heretofore unknown

 

Simply put:  Endgame = Story

End of story

 

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Edited October 4, 2014 by Lunamaniac

[Ailissa]

Simply put:  Endgame = Story

End of story

 

Sadly, DE's idea of story is putting up a small portion and then leaving the rest up to speculation.

 

That's not as great as it sounds.

 

Look at Valkyr's lore. We have about 5 different theories and it's getting to the point where I just don't give a rats backside about lore anymore.

 

DE can't finish a concept and expect us to come up with our own which is great at school when you're about 6. Not so great when you just want to know whats going on but no one can settle on one theory to the point where we have a tiny bit of lore and everyone has their own interpretation of the rest.

 

It's more frustrating than enjoyable.

[Egg_Chen]

Yes! Someone else can see the value in a throwaway sounbite!

Edited October 4, 2014 by Egg_Chen

[PlayerNone]

Repeatedly in this thread the charge has been made that many do not understand the definition of "end game"

Hasn't the term become a bit plastic - at least to DE - with their introduction of the Focus system?

 

Seems to me that a max level looses its meaning when it can "evolve" with further game play

Furthermore, since a single player can have a large number of "characters" with different warframes, each of which can be independently leveled with their own distinct slot polarization and unique mod set load outs as well as each weapon where is the "ceiling"?

 

Since the idea of a "maxed out" character has gotten very fuzzy, I think it more appropriate to think of "end game" to mean more of what is the "direction" - the core motivation or purpose - of the game

Unless you are hung up on collecting or devoted to self improvement of gaming skills, I submit that game direction really means game storyline ...

 

Consequently, the how game assets are used to give some sense of a story is the real question to be answered

Soap operas are long running serials - they reexamine a limited number fundamental aspects of human nature and relations through a myriad of combinations (scenarios) with a large but finite cast of characters

Viewer loyalty is founded upon creating identification and emotional investment with one or more of the characters

 

If Warframe wants to enjoy a good long run, they need to create either:  a.) memorable characters based upon distinctive personalities or b.) engrossing story line that evokes intense anticipation for the next installment

Since Tenno don't talk - although they may have to with the introduction of Hubs - and until elements like Reputation and Focus or Sigils come into play - the distinctive personality path to game immortality seems impossible

 

That leaves DE and us with just one thing ... a story, which is really a infinite number of side stories about past and present events and a plethora of other characters heretofore unknown

 

Simply put:  Endgame = Story

End of story

 

They have not introduced anything in regards to the focus system yet, so stop putting the cart before the horse. The idea of maxed out characters has not grown fuzzy. Even with the "eventual" introduction of the focus system, it still will not. You get to a max rank of 30, throw on the best powers, throw on the mods that compliment them, and that's it. Trinity is one of the only frames that has any amount of significant variation between builds; even then, it's still not like each build is radically different, because your'e using the same 2 or 3 powers that function exactly same between builds. The Focus system, as the idea was originally introduced, was a power that you can use a few times A DAY. That's not going to change anything drastically, unless its game-breaking abilities like guaranteeing what drops you are going to get.

 

You throw big words around without understanding the basic definition of one with two syllables. Endgame is not story, because a story is something that you can finish. In a nutshell, endgame is difficult (not artificially difficult, something we have too much of already) content that you gradually work towards be gaining gear and experience in the earlier stages of the game (ie the solar system and eventually the void). It's content that typically doesn't grow stale despite repeatedly playing. The focus of endgame should not be on the rewards, though those are an important part, but on the actual gameplay itself. Infinite (but sensible) scaling of enemies, complex gamemodes, and PvP (but not Warframe's attrocious version of it) are typical examples of this. A story that never ends is a story that has no point, as closure is something that an audience needs. It's a basic tenant of literature. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel by attempting to redefine what it's used for.

[SSI_Kryptix]

Yes.. Somebody give this man a cookie, I mean a NeverEndGame.

[Aimop95]

All I heard was that DE was struggling to figure out what a good endgame for the players would be, and that they were still in the conceptual stages of designing it.

 

 

All I'm hearing here is "DEEEEEEEEE! WHERE IS MY ENDGAME! DO YOU THINK! THAT I HAVE THE PATIENCE! TO WAIT WHILE YOU BRAINSTORM?"

 

They clearly said in the stream that they do have endgame in mind, but that they want to add a WHOLE lot more gameplay/mechanics/lore before they start touching endgame and developing that concept to it's full potential.

 

That's their "more game" DE has a whole load of game modes and story they want to implement, and I think they've finally figured out just how much they want to put in the game.

[Latronico]

If I'm not wrong, Scott said (in the Devstream) that the Focus system is meant to be an 'end game content'. Ok, but why should I 'focus' my gear if I already can easly kill every enemy without problems? 

 

For me, it's wrong to call it 'end game'. It should be called 'high level game' or 'high difficulty game' (they're not the same thing however). 

For example maps and missions available only from a certain level (mastery or based on gear Conclave for example), where things are really difficult and with proportioned prizes. 

Something that should force players to have a progression. 

 

As I wrote here:

 

These new 'high level' places could be Dark Sectors. Instead of beeing leech experience maps, they could be an 'high level' content. 

 

In this way, people shouldn't be forced to farm against a level 30 Jackal only because veterans on the forum cry to have a 'challange'. 

 

About the 'progression' it should work in this way for me:

1) every player starts with the tutorial, then the firts planets (Mercury, Venus and so on). Level 1-15.

2)  here comes the mid-game, level 15-25. The most big part of the game. At this point a player discover the Void, first Dark Sectors, Archwings and so on.

3) first 'high level' game, 25-35, where a player is able to fight in the Void (t3/4), in derelicts (Lephantis too), high level Dark Sectors and so on. 

4) second 'high level' game, 40+, like new high level Dark Sectors and every other kind of new things they will add.

That's the fact. There is a lack of #4 things. Generally every new addition is in the #2 with #3 as the maximum. But what about #4? And remember that with the Focus systems things will be more easy to do. And, however, there will be nothing for 'high level' game woth to do with our new shiny focused gear. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by Latronico

[Gr3vi3R]

Where's the endgame here?

 

Level up things, rinse and repeat.

 

There's no Endgame as far I know.

[Ailissa]

Where's the endgame here?

 

Level up things, rinse and repeat.

 

There's no Endgame as far I know.

 

That's the entire game.

 

And it's also what makes me chuckle. People think those wanting endgame want something to grind. I don't think they realise that the entire game is built around grinding already.

[K0bra]

Im not happy what he said.Its away from give the Veterans some challenge to everyone can play it all.

DE ignore the fact that there are alot people with all stuff,all Mods,all maxed,all weapons ,formaed to hell and they want some challenge with their Warframes.What helps the new Focus system when you still have the same challenge but then you are even stronger?At some point only challenge,other people can hold people in games but when you played trillion times the less challenge missions thats already in the game its getting boring.

My opinion thats all.

Edited October 4, 2014 by K0bra

[Shehriazad]

I think what most people mean by endgame is actually something different than what it would actually mean.



There are 2 things that are prevalent here:

Harder/More Challenging content - A lot of people want challenging stuff to do...but does that mean it's endgame? Nah...it's just "harder"...but I feel like that is what a lot of people mean by it.

A sense of real progression - Again...this is not real endgame but it is easy to pack that in there. (focus, proxy etc would all suddenly fit as "endgame")



A real classical endgame would be hard bosses that you need X gear to even be able to kill them... to then get the absolute ultimate gear in a sense of RPG style gaming. Or even PvP endgame where you farm for PvP gear.

Both those things don't actually fit WF.


I think it is wrong to yell out endgame endgame...even though I already did it myself. What we really need IS "more game". And this "more game" needs to be engaging and challenge us...but that doesnt mean that it should not be just as accessible for new players...how "classic" endgame is restricted in standard mmorpg type games.

DE already experimented quite a bit with this as well. Gate Crash and Tactical alerts both do this. They did not leave out newbies while actually making stuff harder for veterans.

And if this is the direction that DE is going...then at some point Warframe will transition from a good game to a great game. A game where gear matters less and skill is actually prevalent.

A game where new players can engage the same harder content that veterans do...and both feel "useful" together.

That is my dream for WF...and for now DE has yet to shatter my trust that they can do this. Their pace is too slow for my personal taste...but they are approaching it rather fast if compared to other games.


The only thing that WF suffers from greatly right now is the negative difficulty curve...the game starts out hard and gets easier and easier as you go on. But idealy the game should be just as challenging to a veteran as it should be to a new guy...and in a perfect scenario the new guy and the veteran get to do this together....no matter the gear scores or prime pieces.

Im not saying this game needs to become Dark Souls 1 or anything...but flattening the curve a bit while maintaining an at least mildly challenging and engaging level for everyone is what we should demand....not some flashy veteran only bosses that drop the ultimate gear. 

Edited October 4, 2014 by Shehriazad