First Bows, Then The Attica What About My Ballistics

[Gahrzerkire]

Balance all the things etc. etc.

 

Is this support... or is this... a big NO? it is rather unclear...

[xenozid]

seriously, Attica & Hall of Mirrors is an average of under 2000 DPS from the Explosions.

 

not saying that thunderbolt attica is super endgame viable but...i think you underestimate thunderbolt attica a little bit:

with this http://goo.gl/ELj346 build you get roughly 4 explosions per second (dmg from the projectiles themselves; AoE effectively multiplying the dmg with every hit enemy; and occasional double dmg procs are put aside for the following calculation) equaling 1000 burst dps.

multiply with 5 (mirage + 4clones) =5000 (AoE) burst dps (thunderbolt is unaffected by clone dmg multiplyer afaik)

now like every self respecting mirage you'll also have a max. power str. sunlight eclipse active (in every defense f.e.) boosting that dmg by another 458% leading to a theorhetical 22900 burst dps carpet bomb.

now if you take armor scaling out of the equation (4x corrosive projection) you can think about bringing this to a 50wave+ defense.

tested it....eclipse doesn't affect the dmg...

nova debuff obviously does...also rhino roar =/

Edited October 6, 2014 by xenon_nobelium

[Metalarcher]

Is this support... or is this... a big NO? it is rather unclear...

 

As long as there is a low-tier weapon/warframe/sentinel and someone likes using it (be it for its looks or its mechanics) there will be someone complaining that it should be made on-par with other weapons. Frankly the tier structure of weapons right now is extraordinarily strange--the power of the weapon does not reflect at all how difficult it was to get the item. In fact, I would go so far as to call it haphazard. There is probably no structure, and they were just thrown in. This is not to DE's discredit, as they may be dealing with factors I am not aware of (the push for an update every week is somewhat telling in that regard) which prevent polishing of content, creating tiers and balancing efforts, etc. because it would take too much time.

 

So to answer your question I am not in favor of buffing the Attica by itself (if you give a mouse a cookie...), but I am in favor of rebalancing all the warframes, weapons, enemies, and generally everything in the game so you firstly get better weapons for what you worked for, and secondly people should realize the presence of the tiers and be contented with them (if done correctly).

 

I just get tired of explaining that every time I go into a topic like this because it happens so much so I just shorten it to "Balance all the things!" because that about sums it up anyway.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

That's not gonna work.

 

1. Thunderbolt has 30% chance.

Ballistica only has 10% status chance.

This means the chance to trigger blast status effect is less than 10% because the 10% may result in other proc.

With four event status mods, the status chance is 34% per bolt, but remember, the 34% includes other proc besides blast.

So the actual chance to proc blast is less than 34%.

 

2. No status effect will be triggered when the bolt miss the target.

Thunderbolt, however, will always have 30% chance even when the arrow hits the ground instead of enemy.

Your math is fine, but you did not include Multi-shot which boosts the status chance in the UI

[yles9056]

Your math is fine, but you did not include Multi-shot which boosts the status chance in the UI

 

Both status chance and Thunderbolt benefit from multi-shot in the same way.

 

I may be wrong, but my experience is that Thunderbolt is still more reliable than blast proc. (More damage and chance per bolt)

Edited October 6, 2014 by yles9056

[RiouHotaru]

 

Good point. But still why not? Thunderbolt is a mod for bolt/arrow weapons shouldn't the secondaries at least have a mod that does the same? (They already have that in place for plenty of other mods)

Given that secondaries have better scaling mods (Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion give higher values than Serration and Split Chamber), I really don't think they do.

 

And again, Thunderbolt is a terrible mod. A static 250 damage is not impressive at all.

 

 Static 250 on it's own isn't impressive.

 

Then you combine it with the Attica's rate of fire.  Throw on Split Chamber and Shred and you've got some impressive firepower.

 

And then you add Hall of Mirrors.  Since Thunderbolt's damage is static, assuming at least one arrow explodes from Mirage and each clone, that's 250 x5 = 1250.  Of course, since Split chamber has a 90% chance of throwing out a SECOND bolt, which can also explode.  1250 x 2 = 2500.

 

2500 static damage.  Now take into account Attica's RoF again.  Yeah.  Nowhere near useless.

 

The Ballistica, using Thunderbolt would be devestating.  Why?

 

Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent means guaranteed second shot and 80% for a third.  The uncharged Ballistica fires four shots in rapid succession.

 

That's a whopping EIGHT bolts, TWELVE if the 80% chance procs as well.  If even HALF of those proc Thunderbolt you're looking at close or over 1k static damage.

 

And we STILL haven't figured in Hall of Mirrors yet.  You're looking at close to 5 or even 12k or more static explosion damage.  The Angstrum wishes it could pull off that sort of damage that fast.

 

So yeah, not only is Thunderbolt not useless it'd be OP as hell.

Edited October 6, 2014 by RiouHotaru

[Gahrzerkire]

 

Is this support... or is this... a big NO? it is rather unclear...

 

I just get tired of explaining that every time I go into a topic like this because it happens so much so I just shorten it to "Balance all the things!" because that about sums it up anyway.

 

 

 

I see what you are saying now. And yes they do need to balance all things and do ALOT of weapon teir polishing so onand so forth however it would be extremely nice, if in one other weekly updates they made thunderbolt work on the only other bolt/arrow weapon in the game that is currently left out. The BALLISTICA. And I hope that this comment supports that. The point is that they need to start somewhere and if making there weapons uniform does so.... Then by all means lets start with that and give the Ballisitica its thunderbolt.

[RiouHotaru]

Just for kicks, let's do some theorycrafting here.

 

We're going to pull a miracle and say that, in defiance of RNG, every single bolt of the Ballisticia with it's theoretical Thunderbolt explodes.

 

Let's also assume you always get the third shot too.

 

12 x 250 = 3000

 

Now, let's throw on Hall of Mirrors, which adds 4 extra clones to the mix!

 

3000 x 5 (Hall of Mirrors plus original Mirage) = 15k

 

15k damage.  With one burst.  Yeah.  And let's not even get into the fact Thunderbolt's actual AoE is almost twice if not three times as big as the graphic indicates.

[Gahrzerkire]

 

 

Good point. But still why not? Thunderbolt is a mod for bolt/arrow weapons shouldn't the secondaries at least have a mod that does the same? (They already have that in place for plenty of other mods)

Given that secondaries have better scaling mods (Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion give higher values than Serration and Split Chamber), I really don't think they do.

 

And again, Thunderbolt is a terrible mod. A static 250 damage is not impressive at all.

 

 

So yeah, not only is Thunderbolt not useless it'd be OP as hell.

 

 

 

I completely agree with you on this. You are right. It would be OP as hell. Maybe becuase its a rifle mod it has a 20% chance (on the ballistica) instead of a 30% that would mean that only 3 out of the 12 fired bolts thunderbolt. (this is if everything was ideal for the ballisticas multishot (I.E 4 round burst and you get the 100% in your favor and the remaining 80%))

 

That would be one way to solve the problem. Or. they could make thunderbolt an even RARER mod.

 

(another idea they should mastery rank lock mods) 

 

The ballisitica is a CROSSBOW. It deserves thunderbolt just like the attica whether or not it makes it OP. I dont even think it would be around a 12K damage boost. (Running the numbers now with hall of mirrors, but also realize mirage is not that easy to get and even now how many mirages do you see using the attica? none becuase its a matched set. only hella OP with mirage. as  the ballistica would be. Everyone is back on their over powered way to low mastery rank boltors.)

[RiouHotaru]

 

 

 

Good point. But still why not? Thunderbolt is a mod for bolt/arrow weapons shouldn't the secondaries at least have a mod that does the same? (They already have that in place for plenty of other mods)

Given that secondaries have better scaling mods (Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion give higher values than Serration and Split Chamber), I really don't think they do.

 

And again, Thunderbolt is a terrible mod. A static 250 damage is not impressive at all.

 

 

So yeah, not only is Thunderbolt not useless it'd be OP as hell.

 

 

 

I completely agree with you on this. You are right. It would be OP as hell. Maybe becuase its a rifle mod it has a 20% chance (on the ballistica) instead of a 30% that would mean that only 3 out of the 12 fired bolts thunderbolt. (this is if everything was ideal for the ballisticas multishot (I.E 4 round burst and you get the 100% in your favor and the remaining 80%))

 

That would be one way to solve the problem. Or. they could make thunderbolt an even RARER mod.

 

(another idea they should mastery rank lock mods) 

 

The ballisitica is a CROSSBOW. It deserves thunderbolt just like the attica whether or not it makes it OP. I dont even think it would be around a 12K damage boost. (Running the numbers now with hall of mirrors, but also realize mirage is not that easy to get and even now how many mirages do you see using the attica? none becuase its a matched set. only hella OP with mirage. as  the ballistica would be. Everyone is back on their over powered way to low mastery rank boltors.)

 

 

On your bolded part, actually Mirage + Attica/Thunderbolt is a VERY effective combination.  I'm ranking up my Attica after the fifth forma I stuffed into it.  With my alliance it's a very fun combo that we use quite a bit.  It's just not easy to use because again, the actual AoE range of the explosion is several times bigger than the explosion's graphic, and Mirage is hella squishy.

 

So unless you're firing from an altitude advantage, you could damage yourself easily.  Luckily it's a bit harder to drop yourself with Thunderbolt than say, shooting the Angstrum at your feet.

[Tails-san]

I want my Ballistica to use thunderbolt. I mean goodness gracious its called a BALLISTICA. Like BALLISTICS. I,E EXPLOSIVES. WHERE ARE MY EXPLOSIONS ON MY BALLISTICA.

 

Please the thing should be able to use thunderbolt its ridiculous that it cant.

 

I would just like to state that the word "ballistic" does not actually mean explosive at all. It just refers to a projectile that is only being acted on by external forces (i.e. unpowered). Ballistic missilles are missiles that travel to their target unpowered after a powered (and potentially guided) takeoff.

 

All weapons in warframe that fire projectiles that are affected by gravity can be described as ballistic.

Meanwhile, Angstrum and Ogris are NOT ballistic as their projectiles are powered throughout their flight.

[Gahrzerkire]

 

I want my Ballistica to use thunderbolt. I mean goodness gracious its called a BALLISTICA. Like BALLISTICS. I,E EXPLOSIVES. WHERE ARE MY EXPLOSIONS ON MY BALLISTICA.

 

Please the thing should be able to use thunderbolt its ridiculous that it cant.

 

I would just like to state that the word "ballistic" does not actually mean explosive at all. It just refers to a projectile that is only being acted on by external forces (i.e. unpowered). Ballistic missilles are missiles that travel to their target unpowered after a powered (and potentially guided) takeoff.

 

All weapons in warframe that fire projectiles that are affected by gravity can be described as ballistic.

Meanwhile, Angstrum and Ogris are NOT ballistic as their projectiles are powered throughout their flight.

 

 

eh. You are 100% right I am sorry I miss used the word. Next time I will go double check my usage. 

 

 

On your bolded part, actually Mirage + Attica/Thunderbolt is a VERY effective combination.  I'm ranking up my Attica after the fifth forma I stuffed into it.  With my alliance it's a very fun combo that we use quite a bit.  It's just not easy to use because again, the actual AoE range of the explosion is several times bigger than the explosion's graphic, and Mirage is hella squishy.

 

So unless you're firing from an altitude advantage, you could damage yourself easily.  Luckily it's a bit harder to drop yourself with Thunderbolt than say, shooting the Angstrum at your feet.

 

 

I am not exactly sure what you are saying. But I think you miss interperted me. I agree Mirage + attica + 5 forma thunderbolt build. is hella good. and very very OP. However the attica is only OP with thunderbolt IF you use mirage. If you dont use mirage thunderbolt on the attica is a litte bit useless (however I leave it equipped on my five forma attica becuase i enjoy it personally).

 

What I am saying is that we shouldnt think about giving the Ballistica thunderbolt from the perspective of mirage's 2x the damage 4x the status super power. We need to think about it relative to other frames. And relative to other frames and weapons putting thunderbolt on the Ballistica would not make it over powered. If anything it would add another interesting option to the game, and make the weapon more viable as a whole. For example:

 

Use Ballistica's normal fire to proc thunderbolt and knock down enemies then use charge fire to kill the heavies preceeding proc explosions from those shots take out the rest of the low level enemies while keeping them on their butts.

[taiiat]

with this http://goo.gl/ELj346 build you get roughly 4 explosions per second

with Multishot, Attica would need to be firing at... ~7 shots per second to average 4 Explosions per second.

i don't think Attica does that. i will put 90% RoF on later and time it myself.

[Noble_Cactus]

If the Ballistica were to see a buff, I'd hope that DE wouldn't just give it Thunderbolt and call it a day because I don't want to be forced into using that mod for good damage. I'd like to see the delay between firing the burst and sniper modes fixed, or the order of the two switched (accurate shot on tap, burst on charge), along with some crit chance and damage buffs. It's already an okayish weapon (with only one forma on it mine was still oneshotting Lv60 Grineer Heavies on headshot with the charged shot), but it's a pain to use. So some quality of life changes for how the weapon works would be preferable.

 

Also yeah, go check out the thread Momaw linked.

[RiouHotaru]

 

 

I want my Ballistica to use thunderbolt. I mean goodness gracious its called a BALLISTICA. Like BALLISTICS. I,E EXPLOSIVES. WHERE ARE MY EXPLOSIONS ON MY BALLISTICA.

 

Please the thing should be able to use thunderbolt its ridiculous that it cant.

 

I would just like to state that the word "ballistic" does not actually mean explosive at all. It just refers to a projectile that is only being acted on by external forces (i.e. unpowered). Ballistic missilles are missiles that travel to their target unpowered after a powered (and potentially guided) takeoff.

 

All weapons in warframe that fire projectiles that are affected by gravity can be described as ballistic.

Meanwhile, Angstrum and Ogris are NOT ballistic as their projectiles are powered throughout their flight.

 

 

eh. You are 100% right I am sorry I miss used the word. Next time I will go double check my usage. 

 

 

On your bolded part, actually Mirage + Attica/Thunderbolt is a VERY effective combination.  I'm ranking up my Attica after the fifth forma I stuffed into it.  With my alliance it's a very fun combo that we use quite a bit.  It's just not easy to use because again, the actual AoE range of the explosion is several times bigger than the explosion's graphic, and Mirage is hella squishy.

 

So unless you're firing from an altitude advantage, you could damage yourself easily.  Luckily it's a bit harder to drop yourself with Thunderbolt than say, shooting the Angstrum at your feet.

 

 

I am not exactly sure what you are saying. But I think you miss interperted me. I agree Mirage + attica + 5 forma thunderbolt build. is hella good. and very very OP. However the attica is only OP with thunderbolt IF you use mirage. If you dont use mirage thunderbolt on the attica is a litte bit useless (however I leave it equipped on my five forma attica becuase i enjoy it personally).

 

What I am saying is that we shouldnt think about giving the Ballistica thunderbolt from the perspective of mirage's 2x the damage 4x the status super power. We need to think about it relative to other frames. And relative to other frames and weapons putting thunderbolt on the Ballistica would not make it over powered. If anything it would add another interesting option to the game, and make the weapon more viable as a whole. For example:

 

Use Ballistica's normal fire to proc thunderbolt and knock down enemies then use charge fire to kill the heavies preceeding proc explosions from those shots take out the rest of the low level enemies while keeping them on their butts.

 

 

I'm saying that the Attica/Thunderbolt combo is still good even if you're NOT using Mirage.  My 5-forma gives the actual bolts a substantial kick in terms of damage (The Attica's actual damage isn't shabby AT ALL since the buff), and with Thunderbolt it's like having a mini-version of the Penta/Angstrum on me.

[Metalarcher]

I see what you are saying now. And yes they do need to balance all things and do ALOT of weapon teir polishing so onand so forth however it would be extremely nice, if in one other weekly updates they made thunderbolt work on the only other bolt/arrow weapon in the game that is currently left out. The BALLISTICA. And I hope that this comment supports that. The point is that they need to start somewhere and if making there weapons uniform does so.... Then by all means lets start with that and give the Ballisitica its thunderbolt.

 

 

Uh...Boltor and Bolto? They're the original bolt weapons, and as far as I know they don't have thunderbolt... Just because something is a bolt or arrow weapon does not inherently mean it should be balanced by making it thunderbolt-compatible. Is ballistica lackluster? Yes. But I think something a bit more complex (or at least less short-sighted) should be done with it, instead of just adding thunderbolt and hoping that with it its damage is adequate.

[Gahrzerkire]

 

I see what you are saying now. And yes they do need to balance all things and do ALOT of weapon teir polishing so onand so forth however it would be extremely nice, if in one other weekly updates they made thunderbolt work on the only other bolt/arrow weapon in the game that is currently left out. The BALLISTICA. And I hope that this comment supports that. The point is that they need to start somewhere and if making there weapons uniform does so.... Then by all means lets start with that and give the Ballisitica its thunderbolt.

 

 

Uh...Boltor and Bolto? They're the original bolt weapons, and as far as I know they don't have thunderbolt... Just because something is a bolt or arrow weapon does not inherently mean it should be balanced by making it thunderbolt-compatible. Is ballistica lackluster? Yes. But I think something a bit more complex (or at least less short-sighted) should be done with it, instead of just adding thunderbolt and hoping that with it its damage is adequate.

 

 

Man the ballistica's damage is already adequate. And the point is not all Bolt or Arrow like weapons. DE made it clear that bows and crossbows get to use thunderbolt as you can see from the attica, dread, paris, and cernos. Sooooo why does the ballistica not get thunderbolt? Afterall it is listed as a crossbow:

 

The Ballistica crossbow features a unique dual firing mechanism, choose between a four bolt volley or a deadly accurate charged shot.

 

Moreover the boltor and the bolto fire bolts using explosives (I.E gun powder or something else as is clear from the muzzel flashes) where as bows and the ballistica and the attica use a string. Therefore greatly seperating them from the boltor and bolto as if you were to say fire an explosive bolt with an explosion... welll I think you get my point.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Gear-hart

[Gahrzerkire]

bump.

[Metalarcher]

 

Man the ballistica's damage is already adequate. And the point is not all Bolt or Arrow like weapons. DE made it clear that bows and crossbows get to use thunderbolt as you can see from the attica, dread, paris, and cernos. Sooooo why does the ballistica not get thunderbolt? Afterall it is listed as a crossbow:

 

The Ballistica crossbow features a unique dual firing mechanism, choose between a four bolt volley or a deadly accurate charged shot.

 

Moreover the boltor and the bolto fire bolts using explosives (I.E gun powder or something else as is clear from the muzzel flashes) where as bows and the ballistica and the attica use a string. Therefore greatly seperating them from the boltor and bolto as if you were to say fire an explosive bolt with an explosion... welll I think you get my point.

 

 

Well if the damage is already adequate, why does it matter whether it has the ability to use thunderbolt? What I mean is, if it is already balanced, why give it thunderbolt, which could make it unbalanced? Or is your reasoning simply based on the fact that it is a crossbow, and crossbows (like bows) should have thunderbolt? I can't say I agree if that's the case. "Making sense" in the game should never compromise balance, difficulty, or general fun from playing the game. The game comes first. If something makes more sense but makes the game less enjoyable, it should not be implemented.

 

I mean Boltor and Bolto may fire using combustion, but the level of sci-fi in Warframe is akin to unrestrained magic. Creating a projectile that explodes on impact but is also launched via explosives is child's play compared to Nova creating holes in space or Rhino's stomp having "sufficient force to disrupt time."

 

If you try to make a game realistic by sacrificing gameplay necessities, your game will be both lackluster in that it won't have any fantasy elements anymore, and lacking in fun due to the core gameplay having suffered as a result of taking away the fantasy elements anyway.

[Gahrzerkire]

First off Metalarcher. Do you want the ballistica to use thunderbolt? or are you arguing for the sake of semantics and game building philosophies?

 

I agree with you that sacrificing make it realistic by sacrificing game play necessities is wrong. However is it a necessity that the Ballistica NOT use thunderbolt? Honestly?

 

Moreover am I the only one who thinks it takes away from game-play when the game has no continuity within itself? Seriously? no one finds this concerning or jarring? I personally think that games that lack continuity within themselves should fix such things. Nobody likes seeing movies with plot holes. And the Ballistica is a big fat one right in the middle of Warframe.

 

It would still have less damage then the Attica and ALL other bows. It would be a BOW / CROSSBOW  secondary and a real one relative to the other bow and crossbow weapons in the game at that. Given the fact that its damage is only decent on a charged shot thunderbolt really wouldn't boost or effect that. Thunderbolt would only have a major effect on the primary spam fire. Increasing each trigger pull (4 arrows launched (12 with perfect multi-shot mods)) by a minimum (ideal) of 1000 static damage (perfect 3 arrow multi-shot however only one arrow thunderbolts) , medium of 2000 (perfect 3 arrow multi-shot however 2) and a absolute insanely rarely maximum of 3000 static damage (perfect 3 arrow multi-shot however all 3 thunderbolt (I don't want to bother calculating the chance of this happening because it would take around 15 min I don't have but it is most likely beneath 5-8%).

 

When I said adequate I did not mean that it was "Good" or that it was "Amazing" I meant that it was just enough to get by. Honestly I like where its damage is it however a little boost would be nice and thunderbolt would make the weapon way more unique and slightly more deadly.

 

Realistically (relative to other similar weapons in game) the ballistica should be able to use thunderbolt. Moreover it would not unbalance the weapon or make it OP in any way shape or form. It would allow for another addition to player customization in relation to that weapon. 

 

Moreover if they implement it not everyone has to use it. Just like I have a 5 forma boltor prime I never touch you could have a thunderbolt ballistica build you toss aside for your corrosive build.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Gear-hart