Micro-Transactions, Those Who Criticize It, And Those Who Defend It.

[Draconzis]

"Oh no, not another Micro-transactions rant thread!" You may be asking yourself right now. But, that is not completely the case. I am not here to bash microtransactions, I am here to talk about the reactions to them (while dipping into microtransactions themselves, occasionally).

 

First off, I will talk about those who criticize it and the main reasons behind it. I am sure that if you come to this section of the forums frequently, you would have seen a rant or two solely on microtransactions. From what I have read and heard about, these are the main reasons. I will go and suitably explain each one, not necessarily by how big each one is or how often they are used.

 

The amount of Microtransactions ridiculous

People who use this are usually referring on the sheer variety and/or price of items. This is a broad reason and the majority will be explained in other parts.

 

Some things should not be buyable

Ok, I will have to admit this is a rather uncommon reason, and even then it is not exactly against microtransactions. Just to clarify, this talks about items you can gain in game, but can also buy in the store. I have only seen it a few times, mainly in in-game chats, and most of the time it is about the Stalker weapons. I do have to give them some credit here, as I do not think it should be buyable, but in it's defense it is extremely expensive (800 plat!) and many would find that the amount of money going to DE would justify it.

 

Microtransactions should not be required

When they bring up this subject, they are usually talking about weapon/frame slots and cosmetics, mainly slots. They see they should not be required to get plat in order to expand their arsenal. (I'm guilty here as well, I mean, about 500 plat just to buy all the slots for warframes alone is kind of ridiculous if you ask me) They either suggest that the price for slots be toned down a lot, become free, or have an alternative mean to get slots/cosmetics.

 

Pay to Win (P2W)

People who bring this up find it unfair that people can just skip ahead and flat out buy a warframe or weapon. I usually see people to respond to this reason mockingly, saying how since you can get the items eventually, it is not pay to win. Here is a short definition of the widely accepted term for "P2W":

 

Having an unfair advantage and/or being able to achieve items or feats at a faster rate than other players in a video game by use of real world currency.

 

Now, I want you to keep in mind that there is no official definition of P2W, and I have put together this definition by both researching only and asking around friends and other players in a small variety of games.

 

I have crossed the above section out because it has only erupted in unnecessary disputes of the exact definition of P2W. Seeing how there is no official definition, I found it better to just cross it out, but I still decided to leave it in so people would know exactly what MY definition of P2W is. Now although this does put Warframe in P2W by my definition, it is very slight.

 

It is discouraging new players from joining

Now, this is pretty self explaining. Say a potential player has heard of a new game call Warframe and decided to check a few reviews on it. They are almost certainly going to find out how microtransaction-based the game it, and this can and has turned people away from the game.

 

 

 

Now that I am done with the critic's reasoning, time for the defending reasoning.

 

DE needs the money to continue

The defender's reasoning behind this is that Microtransactions pays for DE's paychecks. Although this is true at the moment, it could easily not be the case with some changes. I see this as a bad reason against microtransactions unless backed with better ones.

 

The game is built on Microtransactions

This really should not be a reason people use. Yes, the game was build around Microtransactions, but that is not saying much. Here is an example: TF2 began as a purchased game, being build around being purchased, but then switched to microtransactions. Really, it is not that hard to change a game into a different kind of payment.

 

If you don't like it, then leave

Ok, not even going to get into this one. This is a reason only seriously used by the ignorant, arrogant, and A-holes. This is incredibly rude, not to mention desperate, attempt to discredit the critics. Seriously, people say this about anything that is criticizing the game. Not only this game, but others. Be a good member of the playerbase, don't use this reasoning.

 

Microtransactions are optional

Yes, microtransactions are optional. But this is not good reasoning, especially if the critic is complaining about the price of everything. It is just like after complaining that a real life product is too expensive, you are met by the company saying "You don't have to buy the product". Well, not exactly of course, but you get the idea, none-the-less.

 

You can trade for plat

The strongest defending argument that commonly pops up for microtransactions. They say that almost anything in game can be obtained in game with patients and decent amount of trading. The counter-argument for this is how underdeveloped trading is.

While we are on the subject of trading, I believe that if we made Forma and possibly even Potatoes tradable, it would go a long way in developing Warframe's trading system. My reasoning is simple: Forma would become a new currency that would go along side Plat that is obtained almost purely in game. It would be like the Key/Scrap currency used in TF2. Of course, I am no expert and I am only mildly confident in my idea.

 

 

So I have found that the most common reasonings by the critics are usually at least somewhat sound, but the most commonly repeated defending reasonings are poor, not well thought out, and at times desperate. Of course, I have seen individuals who give excellent defending arguments and some who have giving insanely poor criticizing arguments. I have not tried to lean towards one side or another, but it obviously does kind of look that way.

 

If there are any commonly used arguments for or against the current state of microtransactions, please tell me. Also, I am well aware some of my personal views on microtransactions have seeped into the post and I would like to remind everyone that I am still human.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Draconzis

[bosstnt]

read the previous thread that was posted today and attach u'r self to it.

[Magicfingers]

what's a microtransaction?

[BrotherIcarus]

Pay 2 win is the buying of power that cannot be gained without paying real money. That is pretty much definition of Pay 2 win and there is no pay 2 win in warframe. 

 

As for the whole De needs money argument that is a perfectly reasonable argument, you don't go to the super market and complain that you have to pay for your food. The difference being in this scenario you don't have to pay for the food at all and instead you have to buy the trolley (Which you get to keep and use multiple times) 

[vaugahn]

Just so you know, there are valid defenses for microtransactions. The ones you list are the typical knee-jerk ones, and you're also only talking about item microtransactions, not cosmetic or utility microtransactions. 

 

Like it or not, there have to be some things in this game to spend money on. Now I definitely agree with you, the stalker bundle has no more place in the store than a fully-built prime weapon. To this day, that is one of the things that bothers me most. The cost of weapons and frames could do with some revising as well, to make it more accessible to small spenders. I mean, if they all cost 75-100 plat you'd probably have way more people spending money on them. The same goes for weapons. Ideally it would be all cosmetic microtransactions and not item microtransactions, but we don't really have enough cosmetics right now for that. 

 

At the end of the day, there has to be at least one thing to spend money on. What that thing is is up for debate though. 

 

Edit: and as mentioned above, pay-to-win means money gets you things you couldn't possibly get for free, or money is required to progress

Edited October 10, 2014 by vaugahn

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

TLDR'ing this admittedly, but let me just say this: I have spent a grand total of $5 on plat, am mastery rank 11, have kept about 90% of all weapons and 100% of all warframes I have ever owned, and have 944 hours spent playing Warframe.

 

If 0.5 cents per hour of entertainment is too much to pay for a game as fun as Warframe, I seriously don't know what people are expecting.

[rechot]

what's a microtransaction?

i hope your joking but. i will explain in warframe case. if you buy anything in warframe its a micro transaction. 

 

My veiw on this subject is simple if i can play warframe i be glad to buy the game, but at the moment thats not the case so sometimes if i find a dollor on the ground i will save it until i get maybe $10 and just buy slots. At the moment i have more then enough warframe slots and weapon slots. All you really have to do is buy slots. I already have all warframes not from buying but from playing

Edited October 10, 2014 by rechot

[BrotherIcarus]

i hope your joking but. i will explain in warframe case. if you buy anything in warframe its a micro transaction. 

Buy anything with real money

[Draconzis]

 

Pay 2 win is the buying of power that cannot be gained without paying real money. That is pretty much definition of Pay 2 win and there is no pay 2 win in warframe. 

 

As for the whole De needs money argument that is a perfectly reasonable argument, you don't go to the super market and complain that you have to pay for your food. The difference being in this scenario you don't have to pay for the food at all and instead you have to buy the trolley (Which you get to keep and use multiple times) 

There is no official "P2W" definition, let me remind you yet again. The definition I posted came from many players of many different games. True, the Warframe community has a habit of going along with your definition, but from what I have witnessed that is a minority. And by my defnition, Warframe does have some P2W in it, but to such a low extent that it is negligible.

Just so you know, there are valid defenses for microtransactions. The ones you list are the typical knee-jerk ones, and you're also only talking about item microtransactions, not cosmetic or utility microtransactions. 

 

-snip-

I used the most common ones I have found. I did ask to post common reasonings you have found in the OP.

[BrotherIcarus]

There is no official "P2W" definition, let me remind you yet again. The definition I posted came from many players of many different games. True, the Warframe community has a habit of going along with your definition, but from what I have witnessed that is a minority. And by my defnition, Warframe does have some P2W in it, but to such a low extent that it is negligible.

But surely in this context the definition widely accepted by the warframe community is one that should be used and even if that was not the case your argument is completely floored as the logic that supports it is "That's my opinion" which counters itself.

[Draconzis]

But surely in this context the definition widely accepted by the warframe community is one that should be used and even if that was not the case your argument is completely floored as the logic that supports it is "That's my opinion" which counters itself.

I believe we are getting a bit off track by debating the exact definition of P2W, don't you think?

[vaugahn]

I used the most common ones I have found. I did ask to post common reasonings you have found in the OP.

 

The reasoning was found in my post. I've found there's just as many empty arguments on both sides of this debate. It's a touchy issue, so people get heated and post without actually thinking.

[Swazlee]

I think if there was a limit on when certain rewards came, then there would be less need for microtransactions. Example, I had to farm 25 times to get hiroku prime pouches, and after 20 times, I still don't have a single star. Some people get it first shot, thanks to the RNG chances .. but some people have to grind for days. And the T4 Capture key is very rare, and I've ran it 10 times now and not a single Nyx Prime Systems BP.

 

Or I can just buy it from the market, and enjoy the leveling up the equipment in the game. 

 

I think if they increase the drop rate for new items for the first 14-30 days, then people would not feel a knee-jerk to go buy it directly.

[Davoodoo]

There is no official "P2W" definition, let me remind you yet again. The definition I posted came from many players of many different games. True, the Warframe community has a habit of going along with your definition, but from what I have witnessed that is a minority. And by my defnition, Warframe does have some P2W in it, but to such a low extent that it is negligible.

Pay2win simply refers to anything that gives clear advantage to paying player over free player. Thats what is accepted as p2w definition.

 

If you have eventual cap in progression then buying boosters or skipping progression cant be considered pay2win, since its not clear advantage, both can potentially reach same level of power, which was artificially capped.

 

But not being pay2win doesnt mean its fair.

If you earn currency at horribly slow rate without boosters or outright buying it or are forced to get premium currency to access some parts of content(through exchange or trading for example) then it cant really be considered fair to free player.

[Rekkou]

New players should never be an excuse. We're all new players at one point, nobody will just buy a proxy currency for a game they barely played. We all struggled at first, rationing our potatoes, selling weapons and even warframes for slot, and we still do this by now. If we can do it, so can they. New players should be attracted to the game by the game experience itself, not spoiling them with more free stuff.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The game is built on Microtransactions

This really should not be a reason people use. Yes, the game was build around Microtransactions, but that is not saying much. Here is an example: TF2 began as a purchased game, being build around being purchased, but then switched to microtransactions. Really, it is not that hard to change a game into a different kind of payment.

 

I complain about the market as much as anyone, but this isn't fair. TF2 began as a purchased game, meaning they already got money from the people who bought it. Before they switched. If DE did the reverse they'd lose money from the people at the crossroads, who start playing just before the game stops being free.

[Onisa]

New players should never be an excuse. We're all new players at one point, nobody will just buy a proxy currency for a game they barely played. We all struggled at first, rationing our potatoes, selling weapons and even warframes for slot, and we still do this by now. If we can do it, so can they. New players should be attracted to the game by the game experience itself, not spoiling them with more free stuff.

But how many of us current oldies had someone more experienced with the game show us the ropes and help out? I know I did, and noticeably stalled when they weren't around.

[SleepingSentry]

Weapons and frames are way overpriced, potatoes are a bit too rare, but besides that I can't complain.  This is a great game that gets better and better every week, when they aren't introducing new bugs at least. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by SleepingSentry

[DrFail]

Nice OP.

 

Unfortunately, in many cases, the worst participants in something are the loudest. I feel that’s the cause for your views on the defenders reasoning. It’s not that there’s no good defending reasons, it’s just that a lot of people on both sides get really blood boiled when they see a pay to win thread. While both sides get blood boiled I’ve discovered over the last few days that the defenders can more easily come across as, well, jerks. This is harmful behavior for many reasons, but as seen here it’s harmful because it means their bad behavior gets taken as the universal, which you demonstrated in your research.

 

I’ll talk about a few of the defender’s reasoning because I feel you covered the critic’s reasoning rather well.

 

The game is built on Microtransactions.

 This is saying more than you give credit for. You use TF2 as an example, but TF2 is a very, very special case. TF2 was a powerhouse before turning microtransaction. So much so that people would go out and buy games just because Valve agreed to put matching hats into tf2 if they did. TF2 held a lot of power in the steam marketplace, perhaps more than any other game valve sold. While it shows that swapping to or from micro transactions with great success is possible, it shouldn’t be accepted as the norm. It should also be understood that swapping to f2p with transactions is probably easier than swapping from it. As seen by the good number of games that basically try to save their lives by becoming f2p and the much smaller number of games that attempt the opposite. Warframe would be walking the much rockier road if they strove to move from microtransactions. It might be possible, but it certainly wouldn’t be practical.

 

Microtransactions are optional.

 This can be a better reason than you think, it just doesn’t apply to every instance people shove it into. There are many areas, such as cosmetics, where this can be a valid reason. There are other areas where I would argue it barely applies, if it does at all. I’ll talk about the one main instance where I don’t feel it applies well at all later I the post when I talk about negative pay to win.

 

 

As for the pay to win definition.

 As I understand it from my time gaming, you’re pretty much accurate. People refute it because the term pay to win has gained a massive negative connotation from some heavily abusive games. Which Warframe is not one of. Affinity boosters, for example, are pay to win.  They’re just not necessarily bad or hurtful pay to win. I doubt many people will go on strike about affinity boosters. Pay to win like this is perfectly fine, probably even healthy.

 

That and my statement that warframe isn’t abusive with it doesn’t mean there’s no bad pay to win in the game, though. This is where I’ll swap and talk from the critic’s side for a moment.

 

Slots are bad pay to win.

 I’ll explain my reasoning, though I might have to border a bit on the topics edge to do so.

 

First of all, as I understand it the slot number was decided on back when there were about five Warframes and a slight number more weapons. Two slots was a great number for this, because even without spending money you could have half the character roster permanently. That doesn’t sound like such a bad deal, right?  At the time it was not bad pay to win.

 

However, nowadays there are twenty frames (Twenty six if you count primes), and there are about fifty primary weapons alone. The ever evolving number of frames and weapons and the nonevolving number of slots has changed the way slots are viewed. For many old time players this was a gradual slide and as such it didn’t seem at all extreme. To a new player coming in, they’re basically being told right from the get go that they can only keep (Or to some players views and horde-y playstyles, even simply use) two percent of the frames (I shouldnt do math at four in the morning. it's ten percent not counting primes. Which sounds slightly better but still pretty low) in game and an even smaller number of weapons  unless they fork in money. This is a very steep looking wall and is the cause of many recent complaints.

 

Does this make the game unplayable? No.

 

Does it make it unappealing to many when they first see this? Absolutely and understandably. The initial impression caused to many a new player is that about 98% of the game is almost unplayable to them unless they fork money over. This is a discouraging thought. It scares customers away and it gives payers a large advantage that people do care about.  It gives the game a negative image to new players and as such is a case of bad pay to win. I have ideas of how they could make this slightly better without losing much if any money or putting any radical changes in, but, well. That’s probably a bit too far off topic for here and now.

 

Thank you for the thread, by the way. And a large thank you for everyone who is striving to have a healthy discussion here, as well.

 

 

<p> </p>
<p>EDIT: Had some runaway formatting. apologies if fixing it butchered some text that I haven't noticed yet.</p>

Edited October 11, 2014 by DrFail

[Loswaith]

Micro-Transactions are rather a misnomer in current games.  Originally it meant small cost purcahses for what was essentially pocket change (typically a few cents to less than $5).  IE.  very small cost (micro) purchases (transactions).

 

Unfortunatly that has grown with games as people have been willing to pay much more for digital only goods; in that the transactions (purchases) are no longer always Micro (small cost) any more (in some cases being even 100s of dollars), often even being the cost of full games.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Loswaith

[OHyeahWF]

I dont know the majority, but my friend is lack of time in playing games, so they pay for it, well my gears still outrun them !

[Davoodoo]

Micro-Transactions are rather a misnomer in current games.  Originally it meant small cost purcahses for what was essentially pocket change (typically a few cents to less than $5).  IE.  very small cost (micro) purchases (transactions).

 

Unfortunatly that has grown with games as people have been willing to pay much more for digital only goods; in that the transactions (purchases) are no longer always Micro (small cost) any more (in some cases being even 100s of dollars), often even being the cost of full games.

100s of dollars you say?? haha if only so cheap.

Warframe alone have pack costing 140$ which wont let you buy even 1/10th of what game has to offer.

Mwo offered golden variants of standard mechs for 500$, not a unique variant, just golden recolor, 8 of those = 4k dollars.

We got games like battle nations, its an ios cowclicker ported to android and later to pc on steam, getting all buildings to enjoy fully boosted rate during lvling alone would cost you around 5k dollars, not to mention units, rushing stuff, eventual resources etc.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Onisa]

100s of dollars you say?? haha if only so cheap.

Warframe alone have pack costing 140$ which wont let you buy even 1/10th of what game has to offer.

Mwo offered golden variants of standard mechs for 500$, not a unique variant, just golden recolor, 8 of those = 4k dollars.

We got games like battle nations, its an ios cowclicker ported to android and later to pc on steam, getting all buildings to enjoy fully boosted rate during lvling alone would cost you around 5k dollars, not to mention units, rushing stuff, eventual resources etc.

Just more examples of mislabeled macro-transactions.

[Frostmire]

Micro-transaction is only bad when put into games to that force you to pay to win . However, Warframe is far from pay to win . I've bought about $30-$40 worth of plat for cosmestics and slots over my 1 year of playing the game . $30 for 1 year is nothing

[Davoodoo]

Micro-transaction is only bad when put into games to that force you to pay to win . However, Warframe is far from pay to win . I've bought about $30-$40 worth of plat for cosmestics and slots over my 1 year of playing the game . $30 for 1 year is nothing

Again not really.

WOT isnt pay2win, but to be able to play higher tiered tanks you need to either buy premium and get minimum profit or drive lower tier tanks for x amount of time to be able to get money for few matches with higher tier one.

 

To give specific numbers, 1 clan match required premium ammo and best tanks, it cost me up to 120k to just repair and rearm my tank(thats after match earnings). 120k was around 30-70 matches on lower tiered tanks depending on results, yeah a whole day of farming to get 1 15 minute match with best armaments and tank.

 

Comparing to premium however 120k was 1 match with t8 premium tank(highest possible premium tier) + active premium account.

 

Sure it wasnt pay2win, in my eyes its pay2play.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Davoodoo