(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Actual discussion below. Welcome to Survival where you can experience the joys of slowly watching your one source of oxygen slowly run dry. Traverse beautiful sceneries and run about in the high speed action of staring at a number! Discover the most exciting item in Warframe: not ammo, not unique items, but grey packets of stuff you breathe! Oh, and there's also these guys who shoot at you. They're pretty bad at it. SO COME ON DOWN TO SURVIVAL, THE SUFFOCATION SIMULATOR!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- Jokes aside, it feels as of the difficulty of survival is the life support rather than the enemies. Life support is a good idea, no doubt, but it's purpose was not to be the major antagonist. What life support was designed to do: LS kept the battle flowing. If it was simply a straight up survival, players could simply hole up in an easily defendable location and stay for hours. LS makes sure they keep moving around. The pods kep them going from place to place. The drops are designed to give an incentive to actually killing the enemies instead of just running around with iron skin. What life support actually does: It forces players to use Nekros of they hope to get past twenty minutes. Drops are diluted either by a lack of enemies to kill and/or their unwillingness to actualky drop LS (looking at you infested). The pods' drop rates decrease as you are forced to activate them. LS becomes the major reason players extract rather than the difficulty of enemies. Possible Solutions: 1) Increase drop rates of LS packets Increase the scaling speed of enemies (they get harder faster) 2) put excavation into ships as well but call it "heist" The drills bore into vaults where the enemy has the rewards These heists occur on transport ships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtFlex Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 IMO no gamemode should be reliant on RNG, just ruins the whole point, it's no longer a challenge, it's a gamble. Spawn rates are random, nekros is mandatory, practically have to bring as many slash weapons as possible for the best efficiency for nekros. Your heist idea also sounds intriguing, but I think that should be a different gamemode altogether... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) don't forget option #3, which should come bundled with any other option. Desecrate should have no effect on Life Support (or Mods). by it's existence, it creates the need to use it. make it the Support Ability it's supposed to be, topping off on Health, Ammo, and some Energy. Edited October 13, 2014 by taiiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtFlex Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 don't forget option #3, which should come bundled with any other option. Desecrate should have no effect on Life Support (or Mods). by it's existence, it creates the need to use it. make it the Support Ability it's supposed to be, topping off on Health, Ammo, and some Energy. This, I don't think desecrate should be the way it is. Creating some sort of need to hoard as many resources as possible because one frame makes it possible is a bad idea. I don't think Loot farming should ever be conflict with actual gun-play and abilities, which it is right now for nekros desecrate. Remove dem resource and mod drops (as well as LS) and increase the rest of the actual support drops, and I think you have a legit support frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxbomb Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 They simply need to remove the RNG from the O2 drops so that staying more than 10 minutes isn't reliant on chance. They could just make it so that you're guaranteed an O2 canister for every X enemies killed, and make heavies drop a container by default when killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 T4 Void Surv: Valkyr and a lazy Trin got to 40 minutes before the host lagged to much. RNG? Not so much. More a matter of cooperating and avoiding the areas that tend to bug out. And before you scream "Hysteria Nerf", I only used it once, to revive the Trin when he got distracted due to a phone call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 RNG? Not so much. it is, though. having Tiles that support Enemy Spawns reasonably, which is random. killing Enemies fast enough to create more Enemies to continue rolling for your chances for Oxygen Capsules, which isn't technically random but it varies. the actual chance to drop Oxygen Capsules, which is random. sometimes it goes great, sometimes it's good enough, and sometimes you end up leaving before 5 minutes. the problem is that it should always be atleast between great and good enough, but isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebreccer Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 T4 Void Surv: Valkyr and a lazy Trin got to 40 minutes before the host lagged to much. RNG? Not so much. More a matter of cooperating and avoiding the areas that tend to bug out. And before you scream "Hysteria Nerf", I only used it once, to revive the Trin when he got distracted due to a phone call. And your point of this is what? Any Warframe can do the same. It's just matter of how reliably you can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Tiles are random, yes. I have had a high success rate when with groups that don't try to be hallway heroes. I've done it with a multitude of frames and compositions, and as long as the group plays correctly, we only have to leave when the enemy level or density gets too high. And this is without Nekros or Vauban. Just a matter of playing correctly. Completely RNG free? Not in Warframe. RNG dependent or needing changes to make Survival viable? Not on your life. Just a matter of controlling spawns, staying a way from doors, and encouraging mobs to behave in a way that supports Survival as a mission type. And Trin+Loki+Nova could theoretically go for hours, and that's assuming the fourth (if you even use the fourth) just afks. Play smarter. If it seems harsh, maybe it is. RNG in mob drops and void would be a bigger problem than a bit of survival and "learn to play" issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinobu_Scorpion Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Nekros isn't necessary to get past 20 minutes, he just makes it a bit easier. I have been in plenty T4S runs that went to ATLEAST 50 minutes without one there. It isn't that hard if your squad is smart about how to play the mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direcyphre Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I'd say part of it is the way in which spawns work, and how allies will keep running into other rooms, which subsequently doesn't allow frequent enough spawning. Enemy life support modules could drop more frequently, like it was originally, and then it would be a matter of surviving enemy levels after 45 minutes or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtFlex Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Nekros isn't necessary to get past 20 minutes, he just makes it a bit easier. I have been in plenty T4S runs that went to ATLEAST 50 minutes without one there. It isn't that hard if your squad is smart about how to play the mode. If you could go 50 minutes without a nekros, then I don't think this discussion would exist. I don't know if im the only one calling BS here (especially with the AT LEAST part) , but I haven't managed to go past 30 minutes without a nekros in a T4S. Then again, I haven't really tried without a nekros except maybe once or twice purely for testing purposes with a team. Edited October 13, 2014 by SgtFlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Course, there was also the run where we had 3 Nekros running Desecrate and me running RD Loki. Necessary? Not in the slightest. Overkill? Oh yeah. But necessity, viability and convenience are very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If you could go 50 minutes without a nekros, then I don't think this discussion would exist. I don't know if im the only one calling BS here (especially with the AT LEAST part) , but I haven't managed to go past 30 minutes without a nekros in a T4S. Then again, I haven't really tried without a nekros except maybe once or twice purely for testing purposes with a team. Dude, I'll check to see if I have any pics when I get back to my home PC, but 50 minutes isn't a problem of life support, but mod armor/hp pools. Don't need nekros, just need to learn how to play the mechanics. And for crying out loud, stop chasing the spawns. That is the worst thing you can do (short of being a hallway hero and leaving your allies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 As it is good to hear that some people have good runs, it still doesn't excuse the obvious facts. -LS packets are based on RNG -enemy spawns have trouble adapting to player movement -survival on planet tile sets is getting a rework -survival is by far the most criticized mode in warframe Survival requires so much in depth knowledge of the game that it seems more like a science than a game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyRamen Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 If mobs can go through tilesets like back in update 10, life support with or without a Nekros to 1 hour is possible. Now with the current Survival system you run into tilesets to find your enemies, not them finding you (hence the word Survival, they want you dead not vice-versa). But DE will not make the change even because low level mastery rank players can't deal with it so they nerfed it along with spawn rate in Mobile Defense. Challenges are only for the "newbies" as for the high ranker myself (mastery rank 17) I just go into survival to make sure randoms just die for the fun of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffensiveName5 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Tiles are random, yes. I have had a high success rate when with groups that don't try to be hallway heroes. I've done it with a multitude of frames and compositions, and as long as the group plays correctly, we only have to leave when the enemy level or density gets too high. And this is without Nekros or Vauban. Just a matter of playing correctly. Completely RNG free? Not in Warframe. RNG dependent or needing changes to make Survival viable? Not on your life. Just a matter of controlling spawns, staying a way from doors, and encouraging mobs to behave in a way that supports Survival as a mission type. And Trin+Loki+Nova could theoretically go for hours, and that's assuming the fourth (if you even use the fourth) just afks. Play smarter. If it seems harsh, maybe it is. RNG in mob drops and void would be a bigger problem than a bit of survival and "learn to play" issues. I'm tired of everybody saying Nekros is necessary when he isn't. I've done runs before using only frost, oberon, loki and valkyr. Frost makes a bubble, we all stay in it and shoot except for loki who goes and melees everybody, valkyr pops hysteria to revive when needed. It's not hard to get up to 50+ that way. If you play smarter and not harder, you'll do fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OffensiveName5 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 If you could go 50 minutes without a nekros, then I don't think this discussion would exist. I don't know if im the only one calling BS here (especially with the AT LEAST part) , but I haven't managed to go past 30 minutes without a nekros in a T4S. Then again, I haven't really tried without a nekros except maybe once or twice purely for testing purposes with a team. Have you explored the possibility that either you, or the people you play with simply aren't very good? I've only been playing for a few months and my buddies and I consistently last till 50 without a nekros. It's about playing smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCatLad Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Yes. +1 Survival makes no sense. I like it running them because of the rewards at every 5 minutes and usually are guaranteed a lot of kills but it makes no sense. (I know we are space ninjas with rocket launchers but the point still stands.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Yes. +1 Survival makes no sense. I like it running them because of the rewards at every 5 minutes and usually are guaranteed a lot of kills but it makes no sense. (I know we are space ninjas with rocket launchers but the point still stands.) Survival needs a rework. Somewhere I suggested an Archwing/Survival fusion that, IMHO, made far more sense than the current iteration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Have you explored the possibility that either you, or the people you play with simply aren't very good? I've only been playing for a few months and my buddies and I consistently last till 50 without a nekros. It's about playing smarter.Good for you, but you aren't most of the community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinobu_Scorpion Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 If you could go 50 minutes without a nekros, then I don't think this discussion would exist. I don't know if im the only one calling BS here (especially with the AT LEAST part) , but I haven't managed to go past 30 minutes without a nekros in a T4S. Then again, I haven't really tried without a nekros except maybe once or twice purely for testing purposes with a team.So your assumption is since you haven't done it, its impossible for others to do it? I'm sorry that you can't do it but I have, call BS on me all you want but it won't change the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 So your assumption is since you haven't done it, its impossible for others to do it? I'm sorry that you can't do it but I have, call BS on me all you want but it won't change the fact.The fact that survival is the most criticized mission type because it literally isn't hard enough?K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Veg1ta Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Survival requires so much in depth knowledge of the game that it seems more like a science than a game mode. I like the way this guy puts it and survival is the most criticized because its the most difficult to understand, its not a coincidence that most randoms i inv dont have a clue how to play the gamemode, i think ill continue to stick to my realiable 2 player survival runs. All it takes is 1 random rambo to keep going from one room to the next to jeopardize the entire run, stay compact, dont spread out to much, make sure plenty of green doors around leading to other rooms, red doors are bad and i garuntee youll get a good run. Edited October 16, 2014 by (PS4)Veg1ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar21 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I like the way this guy puts it and survival is the most criticized because its the most difficult to understand, its not a coincidence that most randoms i inv dont have a clue how to play the gamemode, i think ill continue to stick to my realiable 2 player survival runs. All it takes is 1 random rambo to keep going from one room to the next to jeopardize the entire run, stay compact, dont spread out to much, make sure plenty of green doors around leading to other rooms, red doors are bad and i garuntee youll get a good run. Good way to start. Also makes sure that you are staying away from green doors, and if you further want to control mobs, try to find a corner where you can force enemies to have to approach you to dmg you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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