Synapse Tweaks And Mechanic Addition

[Renegade343]

Hello all,

 

This thread will be about tweaking the Synapse (as well as giving it an unique mechanic) so that it can be unique from its cousin, the Amprex, as well as being more powerful. The content is below: 

 

The Synapse, like the Amprex, is a continuous firing weapon that deals Electricity damage, that has some similar stats (save for reload speed, fire rate, status chance and damage). However, the Amprex does excel over the Synapse due to its electrical arcing mechanic that deals damage to adjacent enemies, as well as having a good status chance over the Synapse while having the same critical chance and damage (meaning DOT status effects would appear more frequently with the Amprex). While the Synapse may have higher damage per shot, the Amprex has higher damage per second due to its doubled fire rate for more than half the damage of the Synapse. 

 

Meanwhile, the anti-Amprex (so to speak) Glaxion, which is also a Corpus research weapon, has a high status chance for a continuous weapon, meaning the Synapse would not be really be as powerful if the tweak were to make it status chance based. Thus, the statistical tweak for the Synapse is thus: 

 

Critical chance: Decreased to 37.5%

Status chance: Increased to 27.5%

Innate Punch Through of 0.4m.

 

The reason for this tweak is because for elemental continuous firing weapons, there is not a weapon that has good stats in every department (i.e.: An all-purpose weapon), and since the Synapse does seem to have metal parts to it, it can be inferred that there exhibits some symbiosis with the base gun and the Infested biomass, which reflects its all-round stats (although with a slight bias towards critical damage focus). 

 

Even with this statistical tweak, the Synapse would still be not that different compared with the Amprex, so a new mechanic will be introduced to the Synapse: 

 

When the Synapse kills an enemy, two to four enemy chunks will fly out (in an arc) of the killed enemy, and will land around the killed enemy in a 3.5m radius around said killed enemy. The chunks (will look bloody and semi-Infested), when they land, will act as contact land mines. When enemies step on those chunks, they will receive status effects from it, and the status effect inflicted will depend on the weapon. For the damage type that is the highest, the enemy will receive two of its status effects when it steps on a chunk. An example is below: 

 

Synapse has 100 Electricity, 200 Blast and 300 Corrosive.

Synapse is used to kill an enemy, and the chunks fly out. 

When an enemy steps on one of the chunks, said enemy will receive two Corrosive status effects, one Electricity status effect and one Blast status effect.

 

The chunks will stay on the ground for four seconds, and will be prematurely gone after one use (i.e.: When one enemy steps on a chunk, the chunk will activate, then disappear). There is no limit to the amount of chunks created (although if it would strain processing powers, a limit of 30 chunks can appear at one time, and the oldest one will be erased when a new chunk is created). This would make the Synapse also function as a trap and debilitating support weapon, which fits the role of most Infested enemies. The reason for this addition is because the word 'Synapse' is related with the nervous system, and based on its high damage per shot, it would overload the enemy's neural systems (and maybe the body) and make it explode (due to Infested elements in the shots). 

 

With this tweak and mechanic addition, this would allow the Synapse to perform better and uniquely from the Amprex and the Glaxion, filling its own niche. 

 

Please take the time to read this thread, and provide any constructive feedback and criticism. 

 

Renegade343

[APBladeX]

But my critical chance.....

(red criticals)

[Renegade343]

But my critical chance.....

(red criticals)

You still would have red criticals, but you would need to slot in Critical Delay. 

[Kurrumitsumi]

i like the idea of making the synapse more unique.. but i dont feel like this is the right direction..

Edited October 16, 2014 by Kurrumitsumi

[Vyrn]

This would definitely be unique (and a bit overpowered honestly), but I don't think it would fit well with Synapse. Something about that kind of effect just doesn't match up with Synapse's appearance and feel.

[Wurdyburd]

I agree that the Synapse and Amprex should be different; I was rather bummed when the latter came out and became considerably more popular due to it's arcing. That, and I love me some Infested.

That said, I agree with Kurrumitsumi, I don't think this is the right direction to take it. The 'trapping' mechanic is kind of owned by the Mutalist Quanta right now, as far as Infested goes [and then I was bummed again when they came out with the normal Quanta that was superior to the Mutalist Q.]. The Synapse still has a benefit as a super-crit weapon, who's beam reaches full length instantly, and for this it's good. But I would like it to be a little more Infested-y than it currently is.

 

Edit: an additional note. The word synapse refers to the nerves connected to your eyes, that transmit electrical signals, hence the Synapse's eye-like nozzle, and electrical output. Perhaps any change should be made towards this.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Wurdyburd

[Renegade343]

Edit: an additional note. The word synapse refers to the nerves connected to your eyes, that transmit electrical signals, hence the Synapse's eye-like nozzle, and electrical output. Perhaps any change should be made towards this.

Thing is, I do have an idea about making enemies go blind when players fire their Synapses at them for > 1 second, but I feel that it would be rather redundant (somewhat). 

[Quizel]

Sick idea for a new weapon, but seems a little extreme for tweaking current weapon.

 

 

To me, if accuracy was increased massively so that Hcal + volt shield were a viable choice to take ouit ranged targets, I'd be very happy 'camper'.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Renegade343]

Sick idea for a new weapon, but seems a little extreme for tweaking current weapon.

Does it? 

 

I always felt that the Synapse should explode enemies when they get killed by it, whenever I bring the Synapse out for a few missions. It could be the thick electrical beam. 

[Quizel]

Does it? 

 

I always felt that the Synapse should explode enemies when they get killed by it, whenever I bring the Synapse out for a few missions. It could be the thick electrical beam. 

Hehe, meant from like a dev pont of view.  Plus the backlash from players like myself that don't prefer the amprex alternative. I want to retain my single target advantage. Vastly more accuracy could accomplish this. 

 

Basically this suggestion would take some under the hood programming as well. From a business/dev point of view, a new weapon with that as the focus would be best.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Renegade343]

Hehe, meant from like a dev pont of view.  Plus the backlash from players like myself that don't prefer the amprex alternative. I want to retain my single target advantage. Vastly more accuracy could accomplish this. 

But that does not mean we can continuously add new weapons that act similar (and sometimes superior) to the older weapons in the same category. Old weapons do need to be looked at to make it viable against the new weapons in its category (provided that they are sidegrades, not upgrades). 

[RSITH]

Well just do mastery for it get Amprex...

[Renegade343]

Well just do mastery for it get Amprex...

And why? Why design a weapon just for Mastery (although having one or two is alright, but Clan Tech weapons should offer something unique rather than just being another 'Mastery Experience weapon')?

[Quizel]

But that does not mean we can continuously add new weapons that act similar (and sometimes superior) to the older weapons in the same category. Old weapons do need to be looked at to make it viable against the new weapons in its category (provided that they are sidegrades, not upgrades). 

Amprex is a side grade for single target sustained dps. And we don't have to re-write the base code of the weapon to give it a better niche.

 

Your idea is fresh and your description sounds like a blast, but massive changes to old weapons I cannot stress enough shouldn't happen unless 99.999% of the warframe community all believe that is exactly what should happen.

 

 

Like I said, I prefer synapse, but the accuracy is depressing.  Somewhere a long the lines the range got set to 18m, I swear it was 24m >.>.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Renegade343]

Amprex is a side grade for single target sustained dps. And we don't have to re-write the base code of the weapon to give it a better niche.

More like Amprex is meant for just spraying around a group of enemies rather than single target sustained DPS with its electrical arcing damage (which is quite significant). Even so, its single target sustained DPS role outperforms the Synapse through double the fire rate despite the decrease in damage to more than half of the Synapse. 

[Quizel]

 

Even so, its single target sustained DPS role outperforms the Synapse through double the fire rate despite the decrease in damage to more than half of the Synapse. 

My guess is that our definition of sustained dps is different.

 

Burst: Amprex > synapse

12.5*10=125 vs 7.5*20=150 

 

Sustained: No RoF mods used

 

Synapse spends 13% of the time reloading while amprex reloads 35% of the time. 

125*(1-.13)= 108.75

150*(1-0.35)=97.5

 

108.75-97.5 / 97.5 => synapse is 11.5% higher sustained

 

So synapse sustain dps is a little better and the ammo efficiency is 66.7% better single target. I value both these things.

 

The amprex is capable of distinctly higher sustained dps if we merely include just the first (of 3) cleaved target and slightly better ammo efficiency if we include 2 of 3 possible cleaved targets.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Renegade343]

The amprex is capable of higher sustained dps if we merely include just the first (of 3) cleaved target and ammo efficiency is better if we include 2 of 3 possible cleaved targets.

So in the end, the Amprex does perform better over the Synapse in terms of sustained DPS, both single and multi-target (and not to mention its double the status chance over the Synapse, as well as its doubled fire rate, means DOT status effects can stack quite quickly, as well as in a relatively higher frequency than the Synapse, both on a single target and multi-target). 

[crafturtoemc]

Huh, NO NEED.... Absolutely no need...Synapse is doing more damage, much better ammo economy even though its single target. If you want to buff the synapse, lower amprex fire rate, increase the dmg, lower the status chance, give it a same innate punch through of 0.4m, or this tweak won't be fair enough.

[Renegade343]

Huh, NO NEED.... Absolutely no need...Synapse is doing more damage, much better ammo economy even though its single target. If you want to buff the synapse, lower amprex fire rate, increase the dmg, lower the status chance, give it a same innate punch through of 0.4m, or this tweak won't be fair enough.

Would that not be just making them very similar, with the added bonus of the Amprex being able to chain arc damage to a group of enemies while the Synapse has nothing unique to go for?

[Quizel]

 

So in the end, the Amprex does perform better over the Synapse in terms of sustained DPS, both single and multi-target (and not to mention its double the status chance over the Synapse, as well as its doubled fire rate, means DOT status effects can stack quite quickly, as well as in a relatively higher frequency than the Synapse, both on a single target and multi-target). 

Guess that's another misunderstanding >.>.

 

When I say first of 3 cleaved targets I mean some other enemy standing nearby the guy you shot. Amprex hits the guy you target and up to 3 cleaved targets (total of 4). Cleaved dmg is 50% to first cleaved target  25% 2nd 12.5% 3rd. Or in other words , cleaves up to 87.5% more dmg in some situations.

 

Far as the procs go, mk-1 braton gets more procs per sec than this thing (nearly double actually, granted 1/2 of which are wasted on physical procs). I have no idea who started this rumor that amprex is good at procs but it needs to stop :D. (by saying that I'm saying that the fact amprex has double the proc rate of synapse it really doesn't matter, they both suck at procs). It's a common misunderstanding that litters the forums and region chat a like.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Renegade343]

Guess that's another misunderstanding >.>.

 

When I say first of 3 cleaved targets I mean some other enemy standing nearby the guy you shot. Amprex hits the guy you target and up to 3 cleaved targets (total of 4). Cleaved dmg is 50% to first cleaved target  25% 2nd 12.5% 3rd = or in other words , cleaves up to 87.5% more dmg in some situations.

 

Far as the procs go, mk-1 braton gets more procs per sec than this thing (nearly double actually, granted 1/2 of which are wasted on physical procs). I have no idea who started this rumor that amprex is good at procs but it needs to stop :D. 

I am pretty sure that the Amprex does have relatively good status chance/effects per second over the Synapse, and the MK-1 Braton would definitely not have more procs per second than the Amprex, due to two factors:

 

1. Base status chance of Amprex >> Base status chance of MK-1 Braton

2. Fire rate of Amprex > Fire rate of MK-1 Braton

 

Since status chance per second is calculated using binomial distribution, the chance of a MK-1 Braton proccing would be less than the chance of an Amprex proccing. 

[Quizel]

 

I am pretty sure that the Amprex does have relatively good status chance/effects per second over the Synapse, and the MK-1 Braton would definitely not have more procs per second than the Amprex, due to two factors:

 

1. Base status chance of Amprex >> Base status chance of MK-1 Braton

2. Fire rate of Amprex > Fire rate of MK-1 Braton

 

Since status chance per second is calculated using binomial distribution, the chance of a MK-1 Braton proccing would be less than the chance of an Amprex proccing. 

Mk1 braton proc chance is 5% per bullet and shoots 7.5 bullets per sec ->  Loosely you can say 37.5% chance to proc per sec ( 5%*7.5/sec). 

 

spoiler tries to explain it differently

It has 5% chance per roll and 7.5 rolls per sec-add them up you get the chance per sec. if you don't like reading 7.5 rolls per sec, we can say it has 5% chance per roll and 15 (7.5x2) rolls every 2 sec. 

 

If you don't like how that reads, think about flipping 10 pennies in 1 sec. About how many heads will you get on average per sec? Roughly 5 heads per sec. Or the penny procs heads about 5 times per sec >.>. You can extend that thought process to a 6 sided die, 18.6% chance of landing on 1. Now roll that die 3 times per sec for 2 sec you'll get roughly 1proc in those 2sec or 50% proc chance per sec.  I think I gave enough examples.

 

Amprex is well, 20% per sec. Cuz it says that.

 

37.5 > 20

It's a play on words de used for channeled weapons. And like I said on post 20, it's a common misunderstanding I see all the time in the forums and in game region chat.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[LazyKnight]

Unless they changed it since the last time I looked at it: The beam weapons get one status roll per beam in a given second (ie. multi shot and unfocused phage get more chances) This makes all the continues weapon rather bad at status effects, unless they are using all of the event status mods.

 

 

Wouldn't the math for braton chance for one proc in a given second something like 1-((1-.05)^7.5)=.319 not that it makes that much diffrence.

Edited October 16, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Quizel]

Wouldn't the math for braton chance for one proc in a given second something like 1-((1-.05)^7.5)=.319 not that it makes that much diffrence.

off topic in spoiler

Certainly shows similar numbers. But that formula I believe is used in slightly different context (has different meaning). Like it calculates the odds if only one roll is made, what is the odds of getting at least 1 proc and it doesn't track anything about getting 2 procs with a single trigger pull.

 

Could be mistaken though, I took stochastic process course many years ago. For fun (and further understanding of why it doesn't fit the context) lets apply that formula to flipping a penny 100 times in 200 sec. We want to know how many times it will land on heads per unit time (find the proc/sec rate). 

 

Overview and expectations:

We flip a penny 100 times in 200sec or once every 2 sec (100/200sec=1/2sec) -> RoF of 0.5, 50% chance to proc heads per flip ----> 50%*0.5flips/sec= 0.25 procs/sec

 

Layman's terms

I'd expect to get ~50 heads over 200 sec -> 50heads/200sec -> .25 heads /sec

 

Now trying to apply the formula

(1-((1-.5)^100))= 1-(0.5)^100 = 1 - very very very very small number = ~1 or ~100%

 

Formula tells us that there's an extremely small chance we won't roll heads after 100 flips. The formula didn't even include the fact there's 1 flip per 2 sec.

 

Lets say instead of taking 200 sec to flip it 100 times, it only took us 20 sec, this would produces a proc rate 10x greater than before.

 

50 heads / 20 sec = 2.5 heads / sec = 2.5 procs / sec. (an estimated number of procs per sec, it is not guaranteed)

 

Of course I'm not um 100% sure myself of all that. It wasn't exactly the easiest class to stay awake in.

 

sor for derailing the thread :D

 

On topic, I think there's enough of a differentiation between the two weapons. Amprex does perform well when mobs are grouped but I prefer synapse the majority of the time. The suggestion made destroys synapse potential using volt's electric shield. However, the accuracy of synapse is trash destroying any possible benefit from the limitless hit scan range when using the shield since you'll just miss. I'd like to see the accuracy improved.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Quizel

[LazyKnight]

In a spoilers tag since semi off-topic.

 

 

What I am referring to is the fact the Ui does not list the standard gun class weapons the same way as it does the shotguns and beam weapons. Shotguns are listed as their chance of having 1 effect occur per all the shots in the blast, in the Ui, and Beam-weapons are listed as chance of an effect per second.

 

However, gun-types have chance listed as per bullet; as such, the Ui is comparing apples and oranges, and they are not like items for comparisons.

 

If you are looking to figure effects per seconds you're not wrong. Fire-rate only changes expected proc per second and nothing else. The reason I brought that up was that the beam weapons are listed as chance of 1 proc and do not appear to be affected by fire-rate at all.

 

 

On topic synapse need something so it is worth using over Amprex. They both overlap as the lightning weapons, and Amprex chain lightning is a much better gimmick.

 

I am not sure if the suggestion in the OP's topic would help or not, but the Synapse needs something to make it unique. As is, it is the least interesting of the electric weapons and it is no longer a unique weapon type or otherwise special.

Edited October 17, 2014 by LazyKnight