Lets Gather Our Ideas Of "challenging Gameplay"!

[Rorgal_Sina]

So this thread is to gather all our thoughts on how the game difficulty should work.

 

Quick Review: Enemy armor, health, or shields along with damage will keep increasing with level until a certain point as of now.

 

Sooo.... what are your ideas to differentiate gameplay a little? Or you can give constructive criticism to other ideas? Or you can say why near infinite scaling is a good idea, just give some reasons.

 

 

Here's mine: Making non-unlimited missions (exterminate/cap/others) challenging.

 

What makes games with a good campaign challenging? There are some PvE games out there with enough challenge to be worth playing at least a second time (to some people). Let's say a game like Dead Space.

 

Dead Space. You fight necromorph AIs. If you scale the difficulty up, the campaign can be challenging. So why is PvE engaging in this game? Why does combat feel a little... simple in Warframe?

 

First of all, AI of Dead Space isn't anything special. DE is fully capable of allowing mobs to do what necromorphs do. They made Infested Charger dodge! The necromorphs aren't smarter, more unpredictable. They simply have functions to aid them.

 

They can climb in vents to flank you. They can act dead. They can carry on with broken limbs. These don't make their AI any smarter. They just have more scripts.

 

Now I'm not saying Warframe should copy them at all. But in designing enemy AI, try thinking about things this dude is supposed to do. Try to make him unique. Try to make players remember him.

 

So I'm not accusing Warframe of not having unique enemies. DE is definitely going towards the right step, and I do hope they continue to do that. Mutualist Ospreys and future Infested units are very promising. They all have a reason to be an opposing force, a threat. Hellions (Grineer Jetpackers) have insane knockdown and a decent chance of survival by dodging. That thing is done right too.

 

So what exactly makes Warframe difficulty, a little uninteresting? Warframe seems to have alot of diverse enemies already (maybe not Corpus). The problem is that the game spawns TOO many grunts.

 

Grunts were designed to suck. DE never had the intentions of making them formidable, although I admire their grenade throwing accuracy (shudders). The game spawns too many of them. They weren't designed to be smart either. A game can have grunts, but a game can't be consisted of 80% grunts. Look, Eximus units and other special units do spawn at late game, but at that point everything is just swarming you. That's because you're either playing Defense or Survival.

 

The current special units aren't enough to make the normal limited missions exciting enough. If you're a new player starting with limited mods, then yeah. But once you reach a certain point, the enemy utility doesn't help them anymore.

 

First of all, add more utility units. DE is doing a great job on Infested, Corpus riot MOAs are coming (although I would appreciate more), but the Grineer has a little problem. As of now, the Grineer may be the most challenging enemy, but that's because of nearly infinite scaling. They aren't interesting.

 

The good enemies:

Hellions are done right.

Scorpians are annoying and is definitely remembered and prioritized by most players.

Rollers are the most annoying and have the most priority.

Snipers are underrated and actually do a lot of damage. Just try to conceal them behind the threats of others.

I bet there are more interesting well- designed units, but there are boring ones too.

 

Dull enemies:

The Heavy Gunner, Napalm, and Bombard have different weapons, and yet they have the same role. Be tanky, cause AOE groundslam, and do the most damage. They have the same AI. We don't need 3 units doing the same thing when the Napalm is superior at that. Try to make them more unique and interesting, including a redesign on their visuals to fit the new role. These things just feel really work in progress now.

 

And other units? Most Grineer melee units seem pointless. Getting punched by the Powerfist is supposed to be very consequential. They made it slow and easy to dodge on purpose. But when you actually get hit, the function just isn't there.

 

Teleporting flameblades may be able to flank you, but they have a hard time targeting you. What's the point of flanking if they can't even catch up after the teleportation? Giving them suicidal characteristics can be interesting.

 

The biggest thing however, is the Grineer only swarm you. If you're not playing endless Survival and Defense, then their only tactic is gone. Their units don't compliment each other. They don't usually become a threat. When more threat is keeping you on your toes, then the game can become challenging. The Ancient slaps you so the grunts can swarm you. Teamwork right there.

 

My last thing is that the game doesn't have to be hard to be fun. People have different kinds of fun. Some like pure slaughter while others like challenges from formidable enemies. So I do hope DE takes the "Elite Enemies" to the next step.

 

Instead of making "Elite" enemies part of enemy lvl spawning, they should be on separate missions. You can choose to attack elites or normals units. Of course, scaling can remain, but elites would obviously have more AI functions to make the game challenging even at earlier levels. Just make it so the Elite AI's have a reason to exist.

 

 

PS: These are very long term suggestions, so I'm asking alot from DE. I don't want DE to rush out content either, but I just hope they have a plan they will follow.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Rorgal_Sina

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

They just need to do something for the hardcore gamers, am open to anything as long as it replaces infinite scaling as the challenge.

[Kracken]

i would say that max conclave rating + fully armed (weapon slot are filled) with minimum requirement for each equipment + no corrupted mods is enouth

[RCOAS]

My idea of what challenging gameplay is? Bind drop into a mission with abilities, no guns, nothing. You can do stealth takedowns, and find a gun that scales with enemy health in a random place in a massive grineer city.

[Shifted]

Bullet sponges definitely are annoying. Having to spend a full magazine (or two) crit-shotting a heavy gunner in the face after 40 mins of survival definitely isn't fun.

 

The infested ancients' new ability (the stun-pull) is a good direction of differentiating gameplay, especially when they have a toxic cloud around them.

Obviously they need to replace the black wire (lol) with something more tentacle-ish and add an option to cut the wire with quick melee, but things like this, promoting target prioritization are great.

[Semshol]

They need more leader units, similar to L4D. except instead of disabling you they buff enemies and have a unique role (not just the eximus btw those are terrible). My ideas (just off the top of my head):

 

Corrupted Shieldbearer - These dudes are huge and very visible they take double damage from you, though they should be tanky enough to survive a few volleys. But while they're alive you deal 1/4 damage to ANY unit within their protection range. If you get close they will shield sweep and send you flying across the map, quite literally, it is designed to separate you from team-mates.

 

Corrupted Marker - A corrupted version of the volatile runner, with a unique twist. They are tankier and will rush with incredible speed toward your group, jumping left and right to avoid your fire, especially from weapons with a travel time. Once they get in close they will explode dealing severe damage in an AoE and MARKING all Tenno that are hit by the explosion. Marked Tenno take 150% damage from enemies.

 

Corrupted Manipulator - These guys remove the effects of your abilities (except for permanent changes like Radial Disarm). For example, you think every unit is under chaos and BAM! Now they're all focused again. They should be small flying units on discs with huge heads. Their role is basically just to stop abilities within an area around them. You primed all the enemies? Poof it's gone, but enemies on the other side of the map will remained primed.

 

These types of unique leader enemies will add to the challenge rather than having the same grunts spawn over and over, we can tone down the bullet sponging and up the leader challenges instead. That'd make things more fun :)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Semshol

[Rorgal_Sina]

They need more leader units, similar to L4D. except instead of disabling you they buff enemies and have a unique role (not just the eximus btw those are terrible). My ideas (just off the top of my head):

 

Corrupted Shieldbearer - These dudes are huge and very visible they take double damage from you, though they should be tanky enough to survive a few volleys. But while they're alive you deal 1/4 damage to ANY unit within their protection range. If you get close they will shield sweep and send you flying across the map, quite literally, it is designed to separate you from team-mates.

 

Corrupted Marker - A corrupted version of the volatile runner, with a unique twist. They are tankier and will rush with incredible speed toward your group, jumping left and right to avoid your fire, especially from weapons with a travel time. Once they get in close they will explode dealing severe damage in an AoE and MARKING all Tenno that are hit by the explosion. Marked Tenno take 150% damage from enemies.

 

Corrupted Manipulator - These guys remove the effects of your abilities (except for permanent changes like Radial Disarm). For example, you think every unit is under chaos and BAM! Now they're all focused again. They should be small flying units on discs with huge heads. Their role is basically just to stop abilities within an area around them. You primed all the enemies? Poof it's gone, but enemies on the other side of the map will remained primed.

 

These types of unique leader enemies will add to the challenge rather than having the same grunts spawn over and over, we can tone down the bullet sponging and up the leader challenges instead. That'd make things more fun :)

I'm glad you referenced L4D. It's a game of teamwork, and you really have to remember many leader threats. The enemies get more diverse, but they don't scale infinitely. It's the definition of well done difficulty.

[Semshol]

I'm glad you referenced L4D. It's a game of teamwork, and you really have to remember many leader threats. The enemies get more diverse, but they don't scale infinitely. It's the definition of well done difficulty.

 

Agreed and if we had more unique leader units introduced every 10 waves or so in a defense, there wouldn't be a need for bullet sponges, but rather an ever increasing ability to deal with skill-based challenges.

[Tr1ples1xer]

Parkour rooms that you have to traverse using parkour ONLY.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

high level areas give rare resouces

Done

[Kruglov]

Better ai.

 

- enemies that know to fire at your head (and get a bonus)

- enemies that have real 'line of sight' and use it to exploit the environment to get off shots on players

- enemies that realize they are being targeted and will actively try to dodge or block

- enemies that will quietly try to position themselves behind players or in blind spots

- groups of enemies splitting up to try to flank players

- enemies taking alternate paths through a map to get the jump on players instead of all playing 'follow the leader'

Edited October 16, 2014 by Kruglov

[Ryokuzaki]

High level areas, with high level rewards, with low conclave and lots of limitations (No corrupted, No serration, No ammo drop, anything).

 

There you go, you will need a great sinergy with your teammates, sharing plates of energy and health. 

[Aerothan]

Going back to the L4D comment, I would love to see more mini bosses appear in high level areas like the Tank and Witch. You know they'll be there but it is still an intense moment when they appear. We currently have the Prosecutors, which are interesting, but the damage specifications seem cheap and I've found that blade storm doesn't really care about their debuffs.

They are supposed to be a threat with lotus introduction and everything but most often all I see is the left over beacon. Now the G3 and Stalker are fun bosses that can make me panic when solo or in a small group, but they have the drawback of giving a desired reward so they seldom appear to keep the weapon elusive. I would like to see mini bosses like these as a guaranteed spawn in certain areas but with less emphasis on a prize, just the challenge of surviving.

Other intense situations I can think of is one hit kill enemies. Think of the chainsaw weilders in Resident Evil 4, I near clemed my pants whenever one of them showed up because they posed an immediate threat that required distance and quick thinking to neutralize and a loud, very recognizable sound to announce them. Stalker has this threat with Dread but more could use it. One person in another thread mentioned making the Butchers an actual threat. They have the guts to charge the most deadly warriors in the universe with a kitchen tool. They deserve to live up to this fearlessness.

I am hoping that eventually more enemies may even have Zanuka and Stalker abilities. Facing our own powers could make things interesting. An invisible "Predator" Grineer in the first of earth. Smaller Zanuka units on Corpus ships maybe even fast camouflaged infested in hive missions a la Aliens.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Aerothan

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Maybe we can start by making the supposedly higher tier troops act like it. Right now, you approach a lancer the same way you would approach an elite lancer. Nothing about that elite lancer screams 'elite'. Throwing more troops at us and cranking up their HP/ARMOR/DMG stats endlessly isn't really much of a challenge because they don't actually do anything that makes them harder to fight. For example, maybe have one of the higher tier corpus troops throw out deployable shields that eat projectiles that sort of acts like volt's electric shield and force players to either flank around the shield, rush in with melee or pinpoint certain points on the shield to destroy it. I also feel like there's a long time where the players are weak due to not having access to certain weapons , an extremely short time where content is enjoyable and the player's powers are in sync with the enemies' power resulting in some what engaging gameplay, and then everything we encounter beyond then is broken and we have to build broken weapons, or depend on frames with powerful CC abilities just to last more than 5 seconds.