Why Does Archwing Even Exist?

[Seox]

So can we agree to disagree? Your problem: "that DE is committing to supporting a mini-game that has minimal overlap with existing content and occupies a genre different from everything else in the game," is my feature. Your statement that Archwing is "a game within a game, elaborate enough to draw attention and resources but so tangential that it will never be strong enough to stand on its own merits," is your opinion, because for me, and for other players here (not all, but many), Archwing already stands on its own merits. And we love DE for it.

 

I think this is the most important pickup from the thread. 

 

I can't really say I object to diversification - I just wish that instead of building so far off in left field for a year, they had finally given us an endgame and some real replayability/challenge. It concerns me as a founder because I feel that they're willing to sacrifice gameplay for the appearance and spectacle and SHAZAM of "gameplay".

[LeMoog]

I presumed they added warframe so they could have interstellar missions, sol versus centuri maybe

[TempSlash]

I wanted to pilot a gundam all my life don't ruin this for me punk 

[dgpainkiller]

Since the Archwing arrived, I have played 3 missions only. It's not boring, but it's not fun either.

Hopefully DE will improve upon it, but atm I wont use my Archwing.

[LukeAura]

I'm not going to bother reading 8 pages right now and I might come up with more later when I'm not so tired but I just really wanted to ask after skimming the Op, 

What do you expect them to do with the year worth of work they've put in to archwing that's already been created and put in to the game? Just throw it out? It has potential, the gameplay is rather enjoyable and it has a strong base that's already been made, just scrapping it at this point would be a colossal waste, might as well build on it instead of just tossing it. 

And I find the Archwing gameplay rather better than the standard gameplay, just needs a few tweaks in distances. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by LukeAura

[Nothson]

I think this is the most important pickup from the thread. 

 

I can't really say I object to diversification - I just wish that instead of building so far off in left field for a year, they had finally given us an endgame and some real replayability/challenge. It concerns me as a founder because I feel that they're willing to sacrifice gameplay for the appearance and spectacle and SHAZAM of "gameplay".

What do you expect from endgame content? Endgame content is essentially content for the end of progression, something these style of games simply don't do. A f2p game based heavily on progression will always have a pretty crappy endgame as without that progression and continued content to progress through having an endgame that isn't just more grind doesn't help the business model.

[TheDoctah]

Stealth and other core mechanics has been secondary to DE for aslong as I can remember now. Think they said they would do something about stealth as far back as update 7 or 8. And here we are, update 15 and we get new space toys. I'm not even surprised to the point where I don't even feel disappointed anymore. It's become the norm that DE is gonna add more bling than core mechanics that should have been added too many updates ago. Let's hope we see the stealth update and core mechanic tweaks by update 30. Not knocking Archwing, but it could have came at a much better time imo.

[Seox]

What do you expect from endgame content? Endgame content is essentially content for the end of progression, something these style of games simply don't do. A f2p game based heavily on progression will always have a pretty crappy endgame as without that progression and continued content to progress through having an endgame that isn't just more grind doesn't help the business model.

 

I disagree with you when you say that endgame is content for the end of progression - most endgame content appears to be built strongly around progression through more challenging gameplay with intrinsic replay value. Take a look at WoW's endgame instances and raids as one example. 

 

Regardless, just because I don't give you an example of endgame content doesn't mean that their time couldn't have been better spent working on discovering how they should do it. Endgame is one of the most important things for games that generate their revenue from microtransactions or subs, because they need consistent and repeated purchases to thrive, and that means player retention. As time goes on, players will tend towards reaching the period where endgame is necessary and without it you're going to lose a lot more players than if you had it. My point is simply that endgame is far more important than archwing was even if I were to agree that they should have added it eventually.

[Abenoki]

I see everything I would have said has been said by many others. Long story short, it's fun, it gives me more to do and get and adds new things to gameplay. You say it "isn't warframe" but as far as I'm aware this has been in planning for around a year and was even alluded to in mag primes codex entry. Warframe isn't limited to your vision of what it is or what it's past content has been. It's always changing and that's the best part of it.

[Renkai141]

Most of you guys are comparing war frame to something extremely irrelevant. I don't play platinum, I don't play wow.
It's just like substitute teachers and students.

student :"But, smarts says we have lunch at this time"

sub : "But, I'm not your teacher"

Now, I am completely agreeing with OP. If you think about it, what IF you get all the archwing mods, what if u get "stronger" and max out all the archwing stuff. For what purpose is it really? higher conclave? for more drops? Nothing can be obtained that doesn't regain in the warframe game itself, in it's core. AW is lacking rewards, you get no credit in the end of missions, there is not high end stat boost when you're maxed, there isn't any insane mod you get for your original warframe or even keys!.

 

I am a rank 12. The ONLY reason I got archwings was for mastery points, and because it's fun. But, other than that it serves no real purpose. Again, agreeing with OP. DE's could have worked on more fixing and polishing. Just as they worked on the AW, have teams unite to accomplish 1 job, just as they did with the AWs. These archwings don't really solve that much for us. In a heavy situation for those players who already got all that plat and just either bought the mods from someone else or transmuted them. What did you really accomplish?
All archwings do right now is just to get Limbo, and it only uses 1 mode. So, again- What does archwching really accomplish? gain no credits, resources, and not always guaranteed to give you a mod(since it only drops from enemies). And yes it's fun, I've done it myself but, when I finish a mission I'm not given anything, it can really shut you down !

[Nothson]

I disagree with you when you say that endgame is content for the end of progression - most endgame content appears to be built strongly around progression through more challenging gameplay with intrinsic replay value. Take a look at WoW's endgame instances and raids as one example. 

 

Regardless, just because I don't give you an example of endgame content doesn't mean that their time couldn't have been better spent working on discovering how they should do it. Endgame is one of the most important things for games that generate their revenue from microtransactions or subs, because they need consistent and repeated purchases to thrive, and that means player retention. As time goes on, players will tend towards reaching the period where endgame is necessary and without it you're going to lose a lot more players than if you had it. My point is simply that endgame is far more important than archwing was even if I were to agree that they should have added it eventually.

 

I'd consider WoW's endgame craptatistic rehashing of grinding rather than good. I get no more replay value out of that than I do simply leveling alts. I have seen good endgame since the days of UO, well pretty much any sandboxy MMO, where end game was to literally live in the world and cut your own path. And that brings me to why this game will never have good endgame. Good endgame is drastically different to different people. This day an age of where progression is the only thing that matters, I prefer no endgame and just additional progression simply because that is what keeps the game alive and keeps the money pouring into the game.

 

Endgame is not that important for these types of games. Constant content is. It is why games like WoT, WT, LoL, and virtually any other non MMORPG style f2p game simply pumps out content rather than something that could be considered endgame.

[Seox]

I'd consider WoW's endgame craptatistic rehashing of grinding rather than good. I get no more replay value out of that than I do simply leveling alts. I have seen good endgame since the days of UO, well pretty much any sandboxy MMO, where end game was to literally live in the world and cut your own path. And that brings me to why this game will never have good endgame. Good endgame is drastically different to different people. This day an age of where progression is the only thing that matters, I prefer no endgame and just additional progression simply because that is what keeps the game alive and keeps the money pouring into the game.

 

Endgame is not that important for these types of games. Constant content is. It is why games like WoT, WT, LoL, and virtually any other non MMORPG style f2p game simply pumps out content rather than something that could be considered endgame.

 

I didn't say WoW's endgame was good. I didn't say it provided optimal replayability. I specifically said that it was "one example."

 

Once again, please debate Seox and not Straw Seox.

 

It seems that we agree that the game needs endgame and that's what's important - my original point was simply that they could have spent that time doing something original for Warframe that hopefully resulted in something as close to endgame as possible, and I'm not convinced that archwing is that thing. While I welcome it as a new, more diverse part of Warframe, I don't think now was the time to do that. Warframe needs a clear progression system and a solid endgame to retain its most important players before it needs space shooters.

 

I'm not saying archwing doesn't belong. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been added or that it is not fun. I'm saying that a year's worth of development isn't trivial.

 

Also: Pumping out content isn't sufficient because it takes far less time to consume content than it does to make it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Seox

[Nothson]

I didn't say WoW's endgame was good. I didn't say it provided optimal replayability. I specifically said that it was "one example."

 

Once again, please debate Seox and not Straw Seox.

 

It seems that we agree that the game needs endgame and that's what's important - my original point was simply that they could have spent that time doing something original for Warframe that hopefully resulted in something as close to endgame as possible, and I'm not convinced that archwing is that thing. While I welcome it as a new, more diverse part of Warframe, I don't think now was the time to do that. Warframe needs a clear progression system and a solid endgame to retain its most important players before it needs space shooters.

 

I'm not saying archwing doesn't belong. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been added or that it is not fun. I'm saying that a year's worth of development isn't trivial.

 

Also: Pumping out content isn't sufficient because it takes far less time to consume content than it does to make it.

 

An example of endgame content that is crappy. Why have it if it is crappy. This game has a clear progression system. It will never have an endgame anymore than games like LoL and WoT do (none, just progression). With or without AW there would be no meaningful endgame.

 

Also pumping out just content is sufficient. Do you want me to list off the f2p games that live off just content and no endgame? THere are tons of them, quite a few are in the top 10 earners for games as well.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Nothv13

[Seox]

An example of endgame content that is crappy. Why have it if it is crappy. This game has a clear progression system. It will never have an endgame anymore than games like LoL and WoT do (none, just progression). With or without AW there would be no meaningful endgame.

 

Also pumping out just content is sufficient. Do you want me to list off the f2p games that live off just content and no endgame? THere are tons of them, quite a few are in the top 10 earners for games as well.

 

LoL doesn't work that way to begin with because the skill cap is so high and because you're in direct competition with other players.

 

Similarly, WoT is a strictly PvP game - your comparisons aren't parallel.

 

ONCE AGAIN, I didn't say that AW's existence prevents endgame from being a thing, I said that with limited development time, I'm not sure I'm convinced it was best spent on AW and that Warframe is in great need of endgame content. Stop putting words in my mouth every time you post.

 

No, it isn't sufficient, and if you're using examples like WoT and LoL that don't compare to WF's gameplay and genre, I'm not sure your opinion of what games constitute successful games that "don't need endgame" is even valid.

 

You're committed to debating points that people aren't even making and seem convinced that endgame is impossible and shouldn't even be attempted. I don't feel that derailing OP's thread is fair, so I'm not gonna keep this up with you. Please reread my posts with the context of that clarification in mind.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Seox

[FeralKuja]

*snip*

 

 

To answer your question quickly and succinctly, fun factor. More gameplay variety always helps, and when the variety comes with a massive sweeping change to HOW you play and HOW certain mechanics work, necessitating a bit of re-learning some mechanics in the new fully 3D space as opposed to the laterally-arranged segments.

On a business side of things, this can only be a good thing both short and long-term, as it gives more variety to gameplay and a new way to play, with more potential for added content in the future. Sure, it takes resources to build tilesets, 'wings, archweapons, etc., but look at DE. They're a company well acquainted with what is fun and what is ultimately the best possible choice for their lovechild. This game isn't just a job for the folks at DE, this game is a labor of love. Archwing was not taken lightly at any stage, even before it was set to actually be made.

This isn't a half-baked scheme, DE and its staff wouldn't put so much time and effort to waste by going into this endeavor half-cocked. Sure, bugs exist, but tell me a major update in Warframe that didn't have bugs.

 

Also, Health, Shield, and Energy amount from the base frame do effect Archwings, meaning Frost/Rhino are currently some of the better choices for Archwing frames, with Zephyr slightly behind due to minuscule armor with comparatively high health and shields.

 

Archwing is gonna experience some growing pains, and I have my complaints as well (Like how hard level 20+ archwing missions are even with a fair few mods, Odonata and Elytron having inconsistent ability energy cost (25 across the board for Odo, 25/50/75/100 for Ely), and the Onorix basically being a faster more stamina hungry Veritux with no other real changes), but it's too early to say if it's a pointless drain or a smart move on their part.

 

In short, only time will tell how high Archwing can go, and whether Archwing, like Icarus, will fly too close to the sun and burn.

[KaptainK3nny]

Oooh I get it someones just mad because they can't use iron skin in space

[Bansidhe]

Oooh I get it someones just mad because they can't use iron skin in space

 

Look at the reasoned debate taking place in this thread.

 

Look at your contribution.

 

Do you feel as out of place as when Delboy and Rodney turned up as Batman and Robin to a funeral?

 

You should.

[Mesyra]

[sarcasm]you know, you're right, archwing is terrible, I hate it so much [/sarcasm]

 

archwing hasnt even been out a week, and while you make valid points, it needs time. 

 

the only thing I need from archwing is a big &#! spear, and an even bigger railgun. Knights of Sidonia style.

[unknow99]

I understand OP's reaction. Why does he say that? He says it because there still is a lot of rooms for improvements during basic gameplay.

 

"We're going into space? What?! We still got very restricting wallruns & not-so-smooth movements, we still haven't got proper stealth,enemies are still running in circles,there still are 1 or 2 ways only to get to the next room,and so on... Do you know your priorities D.EEEEEE?!! (0~°) "

 

That's true. However I think that they just need to focus on 50% new / 50% old content, else old buddies will think that D.E. is ignoring old issues or people will think that the "Warframe is repetitive" argument is on the table again.

[Zanukacola]

I understand, and I think we are fundamentally in disagreement, which is okay. Probably some day something will happen which really grinds my gears, and I'll just have to accept it unless it's something which the vast majority of the community finds distasteful as well.

 

1. I don't care only about progression. I don't equate progression with fun. Sometimes progression is fun. Sometimes being a flying space ninja angel of death is fun. The only reason there is no reason for you, not me, is because you seem to think Warframe "is a game that is largely about progression, e.g. turning a level 0 weapon into a murdering machine through time, effort, and formas." What you're essentially saying, to me, is Warframe is only a game of progression. Fine. You find that fun, and thus you find Archwing's introduction to be unreasonable. I find having a new mode of combat that is aesthetically pleasing, provides an alternate branch that I have to gear up (a new branch of progression, as it were, and a different area to grind in rather than having to grind T1-4 to just have a chance to upgrade my nearly god-mode frame), expanded opportunities for storytelling, and being a freakin' flying BAD @$$, is fun. Thus Archwing is absolutely reasonable for me.

 

2. That's the beauty of it. Reread Flamingfighter's post, either on the first page, or requoted in my post. "Archwing freshens the experience, two completely different ways to play that still retain many core elements of each other. If I get bored of regular Warframe missions, Archwing is there to satisfy me, and when Archwing gets a tad bit boring, I can return to the base game with renewed vigor." This. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. The AI and the minimap will be upgraded and fixed in time, although I believe the argument you're making is that these assets can no longer be shared between the ground-based Warframe and the Archwing Warframe experience. True.

 

3. 'being set in the Warframe universe' is all I need. In the future, I'm sure DE will give me new surprises that will make Archwing even better. And sometimes worse. Because c'mon, I'll admit it, they aren't perfect.

 

So can we agree to disagree? Your problem: "that DE is committing to supporting a mini-game that has minimal overlap with existing content and occupies a genre different from everything else in the game," is my feature. Your statement that Archwing is "a game within a game, elaborate enough to draw attention and resources but so tangential that it will never be strong enough to stand on its own merits," is your opinion, because for me, and for other players here (not all, but many), Archwing already stands on its own merits.

And we love DE for it.

It's clear that we value different aspects of the game (and game design), so I'm fine with 'shaking hands' and agreeing to disagree.

But I'm still going to argue. Though we may never see eye-to-eye (until you get bored of AW, I think), you raise some good points. I want DE to see this debate, because clearly they've bought into the 'AW is fun and fresh and awesome' mentality.

 

As an RPG player, I do highly value progression. There's no doubt about that, and I may in fact value it more highly than most other players. But if I'm claiming that Warframe is only about progression, then what you're saying is that progression is meaningless to you. It means so little that you're willing to toss it out merely to re-obtain it in what amounts to a different game. But if you're going to play a different game, why not actually play a different game? If you look only at Archwing, with its two 'classes', two guns, and two melee weapons, do you see a game that can measure up to core Warframe for more than a couple weeks? 

 

Don't you find it troubling that a game needs to distract you from its core mechanics to hold your interest? Do you think that having two mediocre games in one is superior to having one fully developed game? This is the road we're going down. Yes, it may be fun now. But AW has no depth; it won't hold the interest of the playerbase forever. DE will continue to flesh it out, but it will never be as fully developed as WF. In the end, if land-based TPS is becoming stale for you, AW can't relieve that. 

 

What holds a playerbase is depth. You might love Warframe content unconditionally, but most people won't. DE has created a trap for themselves here:

 

If AW loses its luster and is forgotten in a month, then that's nearly a year of development time down the tubes.

 

If it doesn't, and it keeps growing and the playerbase even keeps loving it, then what you'll ultimately have is two mediocre games in one; if you stripped the Warframe set pieces, would you play AW? It seems as if you've already admitted that it's mediocre from a gameplay perspective, and though it will no doubt improve in the future, it would take many months of focused development to bring it to the level of the core gameplay. Make no mistake, free 3-D motion has much less implicit strategic depth than the parkour system. What happens when that gets stale too? Will you return to the correspondingly -less developed- core game? Or will you switch to a game that decided to do one thing well instead of two things 'OK'?

 

Maybe at that point, DE could add a drag racing mini-game. Your favorite warframe could get into a car, with engine mods, and wheel mods, and chasis mods. Would you welcome that too? It would be just as novel as AW, and I bet that DE could make it feel just as 'cool'. But they'd just be fragmenting the game further. There's nothing wrong with 'collection of mini-games' type games, but what they don't have is longevity for anything but the most casual gamer.

 

Of course all this would be moot if AW was positioned to enhance core gameplay rather than replace it. But it isn't, and though people argue that it may be in the future, the framework is set for it to indefinitely be its own little 'island' of gameplay.

 

That is the fundamental truth behind my rejection of AW, that an update for AW is *not* an update to the rest of Warframe, and vice-versa. That fragmentation of growth will prove detrimental both for lovers and haters of Archwing.

Edited October 29, 2014 by qujokun

[Artemis_Frame]

Well, if you look at the possibilities that open up upon the Archwing mode, there are A LOT of things that might come into play after this! Yes I know, my imagination is running wild! DE won't easily just do such things! Well I like the ideas of possibilities that come to mind!! Yes some of the environment qualities in the new tilesets really need better textures! But! The possibilities that open up are almost endless! I agree to what you say that the Archwing doesn't exactly fit into the game properly, but its not close to being a tumor for this game! If DE could've at least made it it a bit more fitting it would've been a better success in my opinion!

[Llyssa]

 Do you think that having two mediocre games in one is superior to having one fully developed game?

This would be a valid stance if the agreement was that either mode is mediocre or a separate game.

 

I find both rather awesome. I dislike how many bugs they willingly launched AW with, but those not-withstanding, I get to zip around exploding stuff with wings when I want a break from zipping around exploding stuff without wings.

 

There's a reasonable argument to be made that every single mission type is a "minigame unto itself". Most share only superficial cosmetic similarities(consider all the things defense and capture have in common.... almost zero.) AW mission types sheds a bit more of the superficial cosmetics than most, but it's basically just a new tileset.

 

So, I can't really see your "How dare they make more mission types!" argument as ever being valid.

[Melos-mevim]

Going to be honest for right now I kind of agree with the OP (for now lets see how things go later down the road) archwing has quickly worn out its welcome for me as combat is no where near as fun or as diverse as normal game play, its sad to me that the archwing weapons can be DPS'd by several ones in normal game-play, and both archwings are essentially the same play style that being "shoot missiles like crazy to win" melee combat looks silly and is boring the mods don't provide nearly the same amount of boost as normal game-play mods, as it stands no archwing is way to small to match the rest of the game. I however do hope this changes and I understand its brand new so its not as fleshed out as the rest of the game, so I am willing to give it a couple updates before writing it off

[LukeAura]

Now, I am completely agreeing with OP. If you think about it, what IF you get all the archwing mods, what if u get "stronger" and max out all the archwing stuff. For what purpose is it really? higher conclave? for more drops? Nothing can be obtained that doesn't regain in the warframe game itself, in it's core. AW is lacking rewards, you get no credit in the end of missions, there is not high end stat boost when you're maxed, there isn't any insane mod you get for your original warframe or even keys!.

 

I am a rank 12. The ONLY reason I got archwings was for mastery points, and because it's fun.

 when I finish a mission I'm not given anything, it can really shut you down !

They could have, but they didn't. And just throwing it out now would be even worse. It's also still new, Credits and Resources can be added and probably will. Although Archwing should try and not reward exclusives to the ground based combat. 

And you just answered your own problem, Archwing can be another source of mastery for people who don't want to grind Warframe gameplay all day. It's a change in pace to break up the monotony, which is actually sorely needed. 

[Zanukacola]

This would be a valid stance if the agreement was that either mode is mediocre or a separate game.

 

I find both rather awesome. I dislike how many bugs they willingly launched AW with, but those not-withstanding, I get to zip around exploding stuff with wings when I want a break from zipping around exploding stuff without wings.

 

There's a reasonable argument to be made that every single mission type is a "minigame unto itself". Most share only superficial cosmetic similarities(consider all the things defense and capture have in common.... almost zero.) AW mission types sheds a bit more of the superficial cosmetics than most, but it's basically just a new tileset.

 

So, I can't really see your "How dare they make more mission types!" argument as ever being valid.

Here's a couple things that all mission types share: a common pool of guns, a common pool of warframes, a common pool of melee weapons,  identical character movement mechanics, common tilesets, credits, resources, mod sets, gravity. Archwing shares none of that.

 

Arguing that the difference between capture and defense is similar in scope to the difference between 'classic' and Archwing missions is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Never before has DE implemented content that is totally unusable in most contexts; everything until now has been usable across all mission types, from kubrows to stances to damage 2.0 to all new frames to EVERYTHING BUT ARCHWING

Edited October 29, 2014 by qujokun