The Trolley Problem

[Brimir]

Lets do a fun dive into human ethics and morality, shall we? Imagine the following scenario:

 

You are at some trolley tracks on top of a hill. There is a bunch of trolley carts parked on the hill and at the bottom are some workers working on a section of the tracks. Suddenly one of the trolleys break loose and start rolling down the hill; it will inevitably crush and kill the bunch of workers at the bottom of the hill. However, by your side is a switch that you can pull which would divert the run-away cart onto a different track which only has one worker working on it. The workers are all busy at work and wearing protective ear-guards; there is no way you could warn them.

 

The question is: do you pull the switch?

 

This problem divides the human psyche - the logical and rational side realizes that multiple lives is worth more than one - but - the moral and ethical side also realizes that by throwing the switch you are effectively murdering the one worker while you are not to blame for the group of workers dying because the cart crushing them was an accident.

 

So our inherent morals are at conflict because being directly responsible for one death is seen as much, much worse than not being directly responsible for multiple deaths -  while multiple deaths is of course realized as being the worst outcome.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Brimir

[VarianStark]

I'd probably pretend like I never saw anything.

Police reports take FOREVER to fill out.

[Syzodia]

What i'd do is get onto one of the trollies, use my added weight to roll it down faster, catch up to the stray trolley, and steer them manually elsewhere.

win-win.

 

Not to mention, the height of said hill was unspecified :)

[Brimir]

Unspecified because it is irrelevant; you only have the option to throw the switch or not. Nothing else can be done.

 

Intentionally kill one person, or by inaction allow multiple persons to die.

 

[DCypherThis13]

Yes, I would pull the switch.

 

If this is truly hypothetical, where is my Orgis?

 

*sees run away trolley*

 

*aims and charges Ogris* *BOOM*

 

What trolley?

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I'd kill the one man. No question.
Sometimes I wonder if I am a sociopath.

[Syzodia]

Unspecified because it is irrelevant; you only have the option to throw the switch or not. Nothing else can be done.

 

Intentionally kill one person, or by inaction allow multiple persons to die.

 

 

I'd still flick the switch then.

Otherwise, even though the massacre would be seen "as an accident", I could still be charged for negligence for letting the trolley slip in the first place.

And, well, it's possible that although I knew the switch would divert the trolley elsewhere, away from the main crowd, I could've not known about the one lone worker on the divergent track.

 

Anyway, assuming that:

-The switch is my only option

-I know what the switch does

-I know the outcomes in each case

-The trolley "suddenly let loose"

 

I'd flick the switch.

 

Also, to say the height of the hill is irrelevant is stupid. How can a trolley moving at 1mm/hr kill a bunch of workers?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Syzodia

[Brimir]

Yes, I would pull the switch.

 

If this is truly hypothetical, where is my Orgis?

 

*sees run away trolley*

 

*aims and charges Ogris* *BOOM*

 

What trolley?

 

I'd kill the one man. No question.

Sometimes I wonder if I am a sociopath.

 

Interesting.

 

Imagine the same scenario as before, but instead of a switch to be thrown there is a fat random stranger near the tracks - you could push him onto the tracks which would slow down the trolley cart and allow the group of workers to get out of the way.

 

Would you push him onto the tracks? The end results are the same but the action required is a bit more... personal.

 

 

 

Otherwise, even though the massacre would be seen "as an accident", I could still be charged for negligence for letting the trolley slip in the first place.

 

Nope, not in this scenario. You are not the workers' supervisor or foreman. You are just a random stranger walking by the tracks.  You would be - at least as far as the law is concerned - blameless. As far as ethically or morally... that is the question which the problem is based upon :)

Edited November 4, 2014 by Brimir

[vaugahn]

Throw the switch.

 

Either way, people are going to die. That was inevitable the second the trolley started rolling. It's well within my power in this situation to minimize loss of human life, so that's what I'd do.

 

The fat stranger thing is of dubious effect, and unnecessarily sadistic. I probably wouldn't do that.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Interesting.

 

Imagine the same scenario as before, but instead of a switch to be thrown there is a fat random stranger near the tracks - you could push him onto the tracks which would slow down the trolley cart and allow the group of workers to get out of the way.

 

Would you push him onto the tracks? The end results are the same but the action required is a bit more... personal.

Hmm.. we are, however, forgetting the connection we have with these people, and the value we put on their lives. You mentioning personal brought that to mind. If I value the fat man less than those three individuals, yes.

[Cannamancer]

I'd probably pretend like I never saw anything.

Police reports take FOREVER to fill out.

That and the cops would probably just kick your head in and sprinkle crack on ya lol.

[Syzodia]

Interesting.

 

Imagine the same scenario as before, but instead of a switch to be thrown there is a fat random stranger near the tracks - you could push him onto the tracks which would slow down the trolley cart and allow the group of workers to get out of the way.

 

Would you push him onto the tracks? The end results are the same but the action required is a bit more... personal.

Well you did say that the workers have protective ear guards, so even if that were to be done, how would they be warned? Or are you suggesting that I run down there myself to warn them about it by tapping on the shoulder?

Not to mention that I wouldn't be able to push him onto the tracks if he's capable of slowing down that trolley, so I wouldn't bother.

 

 

Nope, not in this scenario. You are not the workers' supervisor or foreman. You are just a random stranger walking by the tracks.  You would be - at least as far as the law is concerned - blameless. As far as ethically or morally... that is the question which the problem is based upon :)

Quite suspicious for a random stranger to come by in such a scenario, and yet already know ALL the outcomes, don't you think? :P I'll just play along then.

 

Now assuming I could push the fat random stranger onto the tracks, I might do it. Because he's more likely to survive than the workers, as the trolley would be slower earlier than later.

 

What devoid said about relationships is a good point though...

Edited November 4, 2014 by Syzodia

[Brimir]

Hmm.. we are, however, forgetting the connection we have with these people, and the value we put on their lives. You mentioning personal brought that to mind. If I value the fat man less than those three individuals, yes.

 

Everyone involved is a complete stranger to you.

 

 

The fat stranger thing is of dubious effect, and unnecessarily sadistic. I probably wouldn't do that.

 

Not really sadistic, but serves to illustrate a point - pulling the switch and pushing the fat man is will result in the same thing; you are directly responsible for their deaths. But our psyche weights the pulling of the switch less because of the less personal involvement.

 

That is why we should all be worried about the growing trend of the military favouring drone strikes over direct infantry assaults :)

 

 

 

Well you did say that the workers have protective ear guards, so even if that were to be done, how would they be warned? Or are you suggesting that I run down there myself to warn them about it by tapping on the shoulder?

 

He is really, really fat but also has terrible balance so he would stop the trolley cart with his girth but also really easy to push onto the tracks :P

Edited November 4, 2014 by Brimir

[Syzodia]

He is really, really fat but also has terrible balance so he would almost stop the trolley cart with his girth but also really easy to push onto the tracks :P

I'll take it that he's like that fat dude from Mulan.

 

I'll totally push him onto the tracks.

 

BE A MAN!

WITH THE STRENGTH OF A RAAGING FIRE!

 

#inb4redveil

Edited November 4, 2014 by Syzodia

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Everyone involved is a complete stranger to you.

Then yes.

 

(BTW, got curious, took the first test I saw as honestly as possible and:

http://helloquizzy.okcupid.com/results/the-are-you-a-sociopath-test/?var_sociopathy=60&fromCGI=1

I appear to be quite high on this possibly made up scale. But high nonetheless [for averages])

[Brimir]

Remind me not to hang out at any kind of railroad or trolley track with you guys, lol.

[xethier]

take out cell phone.

record resulting disaster.

post to youtube with advertising.

profit. (literally)

 

and sadly, i'm absolutely certain that there are people out there that would do exactly this in this situation.

 

edit: (on topic)

kill the one. it's morally objectionable (to me) to allow more death when you had the capacity to reduce the body count.

 

edit:

48% sociopathic.

 

keep in mind though, that many of those questions are worded as you being convicted of crimes. not if you've actually committed them or not. >:)

Edited November 4, 2014 by xethier

[Guest]

(Didn't read the answers)

 

Intentionally kill one person, or by inaction allow multiple persons to die.

 

Here lies the problem with the situation you proposed, which makes only one answer really valid in my sight. To me, not acting and therefore letting the other workers die still amounts to murder. Inaction is an action, and a choice.

[Renegade343]

Kill everyone involved to just have the joy of not having to decide whether killing that group or that one man is morally better. 

[Syzodia]

Then yes.

 

(BTW, got curious, took the first test I saw as honestly as possible and:

http://helloquizzy.okcupid.com/results/the-are-you-a-sociopath-test/?var_sociopathy=60&fromCGI=1

I appear to be quite high on this possibly made up scale. But high nonetheless [for averages])

I'm 8% more sociopathic than you!

>:)

 

 

Remind me not to hang out at any kind of railroad or trolley track with you guys, lol.

 

You don't even know who we are

Edited November 4, 2014 by Syzodia

[vaugahn]

Not really sadistic, but serves to illustrate a point - pulling the switch and pushing the fat man is will result in the same thing; you are directly responsible for their deaths. But our psyche weights the pulling of the switch less because of the less personal involvement.

 

That is why we should all be worried about the growing trend of the military favouring drone strikes over direct infantry assaults :)

 

What I meant by that was that if I'm in fat-guy-pushing range I'm probably also in yelling-to-get-out-of-the-way range, or something similar. It just doesn't seem like it would stop the trolley.

 

And I actually know someone who piloted a strike drone. He's not as affected by his actions as the other military personnel I know, but it's definitely still there. He doesn't like hearing about all the "accidents" that have happened with civilian targets, it makes him feel terrible. 

[ArcariusAero]

Switch Teleport with the trolley. Jokes aside, it all depends on variables. They could have a coffee break in 10 seconds, leading them to avoiding the trolley for all I know. Even though I may feel guilty, I wouldn't flip the switch knowing I'd be the cause of that one man dying."Surely you must be joking! You could have saved all those other men!"

They are responsible for themselves, and should have watched out, making safety a priority. Again, though flipping the switch would mean saving THEM, then I'd be the one responsible for the one death.

[Brimir]

Here lies the problem with the situation you proposed, which makes only one answer really valid in my sight. To me, not acting and therefore letting the other workers die still amounts to murder. Inaction is an action, and a choice.

 

Interesting. However, unless you are a comic book hero I don't really think that is a fair assessment of this particular scenario. Remember that pulling the switch is the same as pushing the fat man onto the tracks while the trolley crushing the workers is an accident that was not your fault.

 

Once you replace the switch with the fat man the choices become much less black and white.

 

 

 

Switch Teleport with the trolley. Jokes aside, it all depends on variables. They could have a coffee break in 10 seconds, leading them to avoiding the trolley for all I know. Even though I may feel guilty, I wouldn't flip the switch knowing I'd be the cause of that one man dying."Surely you must be joking! You could have saved all those other men!"

They are responsible for themselves, and should have watched out, making safety a priority. Again, though flipping the switch would mean saving THEM, then I'd be the one responsible for the one death.

 

 

See, that's rationalization which is how most people would approach the situation. However there is no such luxury here: either one person dies from your direct involvement but saves the group, or the group dies from an accident you could've prevented by killing the one person.

 

There is no if's or but's.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Brimir

[ArcariusAero]

See, that's rationalization which is how most people would approach the situation. However there is no such luxury here: either one person dies from your direct involvement but saves the group, or the group dies from an accident you could've prevented by killing the one person.

 

There is no if's or but's.

That's a fairly good point, though I personally believe that if the workers were actually paying attention to safety and most of the possible dangers, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Although one COULD save the group, the group should have at least had ways of warning them, thus avoiding problems like this.

Almost like teenagers doing something like listening to loud music while walking across the street and blasting loud music. You COULD do something such as jumping in front of the car to save them, but if they weren't so careless, they would not be in said dangerous situation.

[Guest]

Interesting. However, unless you are a comic book hero I don't really think that is a fair assessment of this particular scenario. Remember that pulling the switch is the same as pushing the fat man onto the tracks while the trolley crushing the workers is an accident that was not your fault.

 

Not sure what you mean by "comic book hero", so let's put things in order as I understood them, to make it clear why I took that choice:

 

1. There is going to be an accident that will kill several people. This accident is unrelated to me.

2. I, alone, am able to prevent such accident, but only by causing a different accident that would kill one person.

 

Assuming that I have enough time to understand the whole situation and the consequences of my choices before acting, I would divert the trolley to the track occupied by a single person.

To me, if people get killed because of my inaction is the same thing as killing them myself, and correct me if I'm wrong but it would also be considered a crime in most law systems that I know of. If by comic book hero you mean I'm self-righteous or something like that, well maybe I am, but unfortunate as it is the death of one or more people would be in my own hands and I can only choose within my limited knowledge for what I see as the lesser evil.

 

In simpler words, the accident may not have been my fault, but choosing to not diminish its consequences would certainly be my fault.