Why No Stealth Changes In A Full Year Or So Despite Being Core Gameplay?

[Neocyberman]

In playing the game I have begun to realize something. I don't understand the developers intentions for a long standing mechanic, stealth. As such before I get into a series of proposed solutions I feel that I must explain what it is that drives me to make these suggestions. Also, I hope to receive answers from the developers or from other players.

 

Questions:

Is stealth intended to be part of the game? It in its current state is unwieldy and as the games development continues it becomes more and more clear that less and less warframes are meant to support stealth in their abilities. There are 4 out of the 21 warframes with stealth abilities. 2 of those have powers which are rendered clunky by simply not working and being based on a factor the player has little feedback on (Banshees silence and noise mechanics) or being dependant on air time, without actually having powers meant to extend air time(Excalibur). 

 

Additionally why are frames not afforded general abilities that enhance stealth? I can accept some frames obviously being built around their abilities which are or are not stealth related. I can accept that some frames are not built for stealth at all in terms of their abilities,(look at rhino, he roars and stomps and attracts aggro) but I have a hard time accepting that the games core gameplay does not afford warframes which are built up as being like ninjas little in terms of common stealth mechanics. With the recent acknowledgement of coptering and the addition of directional melee it is clear players are meant to zoom around, move quickly across gaps and its meant to be something all melee and thus all players can do this awesome ninja movement. But, why are there not any such mechanics for hiding or avoiding detection aside from stealth killing.

 

What disturbs me is that it has drawn little to no attention or official statements as to better fleshing out a feature that the game has had for what, a year or two now. Why not talk about it when it is a frequently brought up topic on the feedback section? 

 

Has development of maps, enemies, UI, and AI changed to focus on areas other than stealth? Ignoring the earlier point about not having warframe related movement or ability mechanics to support stealth, why in all this time have enemies not been updated to not be able to tell where a player is if they break line of sight? Why has map UI not been updated to reflect stealth? Why are most maps designed around blindly walking into a room with no idea of enemy facing with no way of negating it or having an idea of enemy proximity in a new tile.

 

Why is there no feedback or stats provided to the player about the sound of weapons and footsteps? As I understand it how stealthy a weapon is is based on its type as well as a stealthiness stat hidden from the player. However this is something you can mod for with a void dropped mod that increases stealth by a flat number. How are we to understand how this works or if it works if sound isn't something that can be gauged by the player. Now this is not to say that this cannot be found through testing but another issue arises. What does +1 or +2 stealth matter if the stealth number isn't visible to the player? Additionally, sound of people moving around or enemies screaming are not actually explained to the player and there is no way of properly measuring it. 

 

Solutions:

 

1) Going forward be more clear about what place stealth is going to have in the game.

 

I understand that warframe must be complex to develop. I have some understanding of game development. It is a game that mixes RPG, third person shooter, and Diablo esque mechanics. Properly keeping stealth relevant is difficult. But its a challenge you took. Ninjas play free remember? If you did and intend to make a shift away from stealth mechanics say it. Clean up stealth to be more out of the way rather than leave it as clunky as it is now or at least say something!

 

2.)A series of basic mechanics to support stealth

 

In order to make stealth more interesting or require more interaction and be more rewarding even if you get seen all but once a series of mechanics need to be implemented.

-Line of sight that you can break as a way to determine if an enemy can see you.

-Greater reward for killing enemies if you are stealthy

-A way of telling if enemies are behind the next door on another tile so you don't walk into them face first

-Some signal for when enemies are coming through doors

-Facing directions on the minimap

-Spotting feature: A way of adding targets to the minimap based on sight to better keep track of them more than one at a time. Doesn't invalidate minimap mods.

-If you break line of sight enemies still rush to your last known location and try to find you from there or attempt to call in tougher squads in a manner transparent to the player.

 

3)Warframes should have innate abilities or built in mechanics they can use to remain hidden.

 

I am not talking about being able to become invisible, but things that would fit in with the recent boost in mobility we have been given. I'm talking about being able to stick to walls or ceilings. Such a thing could be used to remain in a place enemies would not immediately look at. Additionally it could be used to better extend the range of movement the player has and fire from more advantageous spots.

 

4)Stats concerning stealth need to be more transparent.

 

Include noise or firing stat and a "silent" modifier visible to the player to guns. Even if its a really simple number like the mod card implies it is, please make it visible. If there isn't enough space add on another tab because there is a bunch of information in addition to silence that is not made visible to the player but can be modified. Such as Ammo count.

 

Conclusion:

 

I dont understand how this feature goes without a second pass after all this time. The same goes for parkour mechanics and stamina mechanics. I don't understand how a game producer who stress such great community interaction have failed to mention this in all the apparatuses they have. I've been filing through hot topics which tend to mention what gets discussed in dev streams and I've come up with nothing. What happened? What are your intentions for the system? Like what?

[vaugahn]

The problem with stealth is that it does not mesh with existing gameplay mechanics, outside of one or two very specific mission types. All of our weapons, our abilities, even our movement options, are not conducive to stealth gameplay. 

 

And it's been so overhyped by the community as a silver bullet for many of Warframe's problems that no matter what sort of improvements are delivered, they will be disappointing. 

 

Edit: also, I wouldn't say there haven't been any stealth mechanic improvements. There have been quite a few, just spread apart over many updates.

Edited November 9, 2014 by vaugahn

[Neocyberman]

The problem with stealth is that it does not mesh with existing gameplay mechanics, outside of one or two very specific mission types. All of our weapons, our abilities, even our movement options, are not conducive to stealth gameplay. 

 

And it's been so overhyped by the community as a silver bullet for many of Warframe's problems that no matter what sort of improvements are delivered, they will be disappointing. 

 

Edit: also, I wouldn't say there haven't been any stealth mechanic improvements. There have been quite a few, just spread apart over many updates.

 

Agreed on the first portion

 

Also pretty agreed on the second one, After recent changes to several core mechanics I'm somewhat more resigned to thinking not much good can come of a second pass. I dont think it could be much worse/clunky

 

Oh, what were they? I didnt come across any of them in my research.

[vaugahn]

Agreed on the first portion

 

Also pretty agreed on the second one, After recent changes to several core mechanics I'm somewhat more resigned to thinking not much good can come of a second pass. I dont think it could be much worse/clunky

 

Oh, what were they? I didnt come across any of them in my research.

 

Plenty of good can come of a second pass. There are quite a few things I can think of that need one.

 

And enemy detection has been improved, as well as alert status from alarms. Enemies also have some basic behavior parameters that allow you to flank them now. 

[Innocent_Flower]

The word shinobi and ninja are supposed to mean the same thing. But when I hear "shinobi" i think of genuine stealthy sabutuers from feudal japan. When I hear ninja I imagine acrobats in black doing very overt Hollywood theatrics.  I think DE used the right word to describe their game. 

[GhostSwordsman]

Agreed, I think they should keep going back to stealth and keep improving upon it. As it stands right now, it's only a half-viable approach to missions, and you're limited in what type of gear you can bring or your limited by modding, because with the proper mods, you could use virtually any weapon for being stealthy.

 

A personal improvement I'd like to see, and it goes in line with the point you bring up about not knowing what's on the other side of doors, is an few alternate ways to enter rooms. Things like air ducts and maintenance tunnels to let us slip underneath our enemies or get a high vantage point where we can survey the room before attacking rather than just blindly charging the door. I also think it would be neat if more rooms, especially the larger ones, had more catwalks in them coming off the ceilings that enemies cannot or won't occupy, giving us a clear way to stay out of sight and see what's going on in the tile we're currently occupying.

[DSpite]

I'm just generalizing here, as in, what tends or would tend to happen in a game:

 

* Extermination: Stealth is much slower. Since you work one tile at the time, it's the safest mission type to farm fast or practice on for mobs. Only use of stealth is for personal enjoyment.

* Rescue: Good luck staying stealthy AFTER getting the Hostage out, without DE crippling the AI. I mean, enemies ARE supposed to block doors and corridors, and the rescue target "can't stealth".

* Sabotage: Pretty sure after you blow up the first target, everyone knows what's happening.

* Capture: Possibly on one target, but two? No one is watching the high value targets? Not even on a webcam?

* Hijack: Only up to the point you blow up the ship reactor.

* Deception: Only up to the point you insert the Datamass.

* Assassination: You will never get one-hit Stealth kills on bosses with "invulnerability", so the whole place goes on alert at that point.

* Spy: I don't see why not, as we are doing it already in many cases.

* Defense/Survival/Excavasion/Interception etc are not applicable.

 

I've done a lot of clean runs to the target in Rescue missions, just to watch my rescuee one tile later go hide behind a create 10 feet from the enemy and die. That stupid son of a glitch.

 

I would like separate "Stealth" based missions just so everyone is on the ball about what is needed and plays accordingly. Even if you just allow stealth in anything, when the rest of the team drops in it just takes 5 seconds of violence to cancel any "stealth".

 

I often play pseudo-stealth by starting a Public mission on my own, and if anyone drops in we just do whatever.

[Kruglov]

If alerting one enemy didn't alert every single one in the map like it does now the current stealth mechanics would be fine.

 

But that doesn't happen and thus the mechanics don't work.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

I'm just generalizing here, as in, what tends or would tend to happen in a game:

 

* Extermination: Stealth is much slower. Since you work one tile at the time, it's the safest mission type to farm fast or practice on for mobs. Only use of stealth is for personal enjoyment.

* Rescue: Good luck staying stealthy AFTER getting the Hostage out, without DE crippling the AI. I mean, enemies ARE supposed to block doors and corridors, and the rescue target "can't stealth".

* Sabotage: Pretty sure after you blow up the first target, everyone knows what's happening.

* Capture: Possibly on one target, but two? No one is watching the high value targets? Not even on a webcam?

* Hijack: Only up to the point you blow up the ship reactor.

* Deception: Only up to the point you insert the Datamass.

* Assassination: You will never get one-hit Stealth kills on bosses with "invulnerability", so the whole place goes on alert at that point.

* Spy: I don't see why not, as we are doing it already in many cases.

* Defense/Survival/Excavasion/Interception etc are not applicable.

 

I've done a lot of clean runs to the target in Rescue missions, just to watch my rescuee one tile later go hide behind a create 10 feet from the enemy and die. That stupid son of a glitch.

 

I would like separate "Stealth" based missions just so everyone is on the ball about what is needed and plays accordingly. Even if you just allow stealth in anything, when the rest of the team drops in it just takes 5 seconds of violence to cancel any "stealth".

 

I often play pseudo-stealth by starting a Public mission on my own, and if anyone drops in we just do whatever.

 

In regards to sabotage missions they could work pretty well if given some "C4" type of weapon that is specific to that mission type. It could also be designed to only detonate while the player is within a certain range so that the player won't just detonate them all at the extraction point. the ship or whatever could be forced into higher states of alert after each consecutive detonation to keep the mission type from feeling to similar to spy.

 

Capture could work as well since the capture targets don't always have to be HVTs. And in the event that they are that would only make the mission more difficult rather than impossible. If proper stealth was implemented then neutralizing a target without giving away your position would allow you to remain undetected. This could be accomplished if tools that allow you to attract or distract unaware enemies were implemented.

 

There are actually missions in Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeros that are very similar to these mission types. The mechanics just have to be there for them to work.

 

As for the others I agree with you. Every mission type doesn't have to work with stealth but ideally there could be two separate mission paths to each assassination mission so that stealth players could progress just as non stealth players do. The only thing that currently necessitates doing every mission is the extractors which isn't a big deal. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously though, stealth, parkour, etc. were simply selling points. Not that I wouldn't be against some improvements.

[omegaskorpion]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Seriously though, stealth, parkour, etc. were simply selling points. Not that I wouldn't be against some improvements.

 

When i started playing warframe, i dint expext it to be power fantasy, i was waiting stealth, parcour, shooting and melee space stuff.

 

what i got was shooting, melee and broken parcour and non existant stealth.

 

warframe is not bad game (far from it) but the selling points are broken.

 

(and we as players are too OP against the AI since balance is broken)

[vaugahn]

When i started playing warframe, i dint expext it to be power fantasy, i was waiting stealth, parcour, shooting and melee space stuff.

 

Stealth will never be core gameplay. This game simply isn't structured correctly for that. At best, stealth will be secondary gameplay, only important in a few specific scenarios. For stealth to become core gameplay, we would need a radical restructuring of fundamental game elements, which I don't think is possible or desired at this point. 

[omegaskorpion]

Stealth will never be core gameplay. This game simply isn't structured correctly for that. At best, stealth will be secondary gameplay, only important in a few specific scenarios. For stealth to become core gameplay, we would need a radical restructuring of fundamental game elements, which I don't think is possible or desired at this point. 

 

stealth can work in: sabotage, extermination, assasination, spy, rescue, hijack, capture. that is lot of game mods where it can work.

 

What needs to be done is improve enemy AI and few simpler things like insta stealth kills.

 

main promplem isn't the maps. Its how effective play style is stealth, the proplem is that tenno are SO OVERPOWERED that there is no need for stealth pass the early few missions.

 

Parcour can be effectively be improved with the stealth.

 

 

even archwing is now "basicly" part of the core game since we need to do missions in it to achieve stuff (Limbo)

[vaugahn]

stealth can work in: sabotage, extermination, assasination, spy, rescue, hijack, capture. that is lot of game mods where it can work.

 

But the thing is, in almost all of those modes you're better served without stealth. Unless enemies are beefed up to the point where stealth is the only option, there's very little reason to do it outside of personal preference or a special objective. Even the game itself funnels people away from stealth: only three warframes have "stealthy" powers, and even on those three there's only one or two powers that are stealthy and the rest are oriented for direct confrontation. 

 

Like I said above, "stealth 2.0" has been so unbelievably overhyped by the community as a solve-all for Warframe's problems that there's no way it can ever deliver. This is not a stealthy game, and it never was. At best, stealth is a secondary play style. 

[omegaskorpion]

But the thing is, in almost all of those modes you're better served without stealth. Unless enemies are beefed up to the point where stealth is the only option, there's very little reason to do it outside of personal preference or a special objective. Even the game itself funnels people away from stealth: only three warframes have "stealthy" powers, and even on those three there's only one or two powers that are stealthy and the rest are oriented for direct confrontation. 

 

Like I said above, "stealth 2.0" has been so unbelievably overhyped by the community as a solve-all for Warframe's problems that there's no way it can ever deliver. This is not a stealthy game, and it never was. At best, stealth is a secondary play style. 

 

the only thing that solver problems is fleshed out core game and bug fixes and laucher issue fixes.

 

im more hyped to see the day when infinite scaling ends and weapons would live in balanced harmony (and frames too)

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Stealth will never be core gameplay. This game simply isn't structured correctly for that. At best, stealth will be secondary gameplay, only important in a few specific scenarios. For stealth to become core gameplay, we would need a radical restructuring of fundamental game elements, which I don't think is possible or desired at this point.

[Neocyberman]

Stealth will never be core gameplay. This game simply isn't structured correctly for that. At best, stealth will be secondary gameplay, only important in a few specific scenarios. For stealth to become core gameplay, we would need a radical restructuring of fundamental game elements, which I don't think is possible or desired at this point. 

Two things come to mind when you say that, how that statement applies to both stealth and parkour. This is the core of my argument for changes to stealth and possibly movement mechanics.

 

Stealth will never be core gameplay without changes to fundamental gameplay elements. This is for the most part true. Many modes are not built for stealth to be an option. If this reflects a change in the development process away from stealth then why no announcement, surely this really old feature does not fit the game. 

 

Regardless of whether its meant to be secondary or a really core feature you must admit its not in a good place for either. In its current state it is way too clunky to be used as main unless you are using a frame that can disappear. So okay, its not meant to be core but that raises another question. Why is there an ingame goal that the player is meant to complete via stealth which shows up even in missions where stealth is supposed to be impossible? This suggests the player should have the ability to avoid or trick enemies into thinking they are not there. But there isnt. So this suggests that stealth is an option only in certain modes. But even then, because of the limited amount of missions to fit stealth why is it an ingame goal you can get no matter what mission you play? 

 

It all just seems illogical:

 

If stealth is core why hasnt it been updated to fit modern mechanics and frames?

If stealth is not core then why hasnt it been retrofitted for core gameplay and why for this long?

If there has been a shift away from stealth as being an important or even optimal way of playing why hasn't DE made statements about it?

If we the players are to take this lack of communication as an invitation to interpret stealth as we want and make suggestions as to how it could be improved why has DE not responded to these questions and not made more statements about it in the fasion they have set up?

If "DE doesnt want to talk about stealth and want to focus on other mechanics that need attention" well, why have they been doing this for so long on one of the main features of the game?

 

Then it occurs to me the same thing could be said of parkour. Its an old feature that maps, frame abilities, and enemy ai isnt meant to deal with.

 

It seems to me that this sort of  thing is happening over and over, core features being ignored and I dont even play stealth that often but I feel I would if it wasn't in such disrepair.

[Mak_Gohae]

DE wants everyone playing everything so they are hesitant to spend time in a game style that is only going to have certain people play. 

Plus, Knights are not that sneaky.

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

Stealth and parkour are two entirely different beasts.

 

Stealth is a different way of playing the game, parkour (theoretically) is a tool for you to use like a weapon or a frame. Improvements to parkour benefit all playstyles.

 

The problem with stealth is that it just doesn't fit. Unlike parkour, which has a wide variety of applications across many playstyles, stealth would be completely eclipsed by aggressive run-n-gun play in a team, and only really be useful for cool factor or things like rescue 2.0 where it's forced.

 

It's never been a core feature, at least not in the time I've been playing. The desire for it mostly stems from the "ninja" references, as illogical as those often are. 

 

The final point to consider is that the core feature improvement cycle differs vastly from the "2.0" cycle. If you compared the parkour system at its introduction to what we have today, you'd see improvement across the board. Same goes for what little we have stealth-wise. Of course, since these changes don't come as a big numbered point all at once, they essentially don't exist. 

[matrixEXO]

(and we as players are too OP against the AI since balance is broken)

Personally, I would say the reason why we are OP is because of that power fantasy overflow from DE's side. Not the stealth nor the parkour. In fact, even if they fixed stealth and parkour, we would still be too OP. If weapons and warframes never had any mods to 'customise your playstyle' then most likely, you would see a very very broken AI. The power fantasy which DE provides overlaps the broken AI designs because you barely notice it when you go on slaughtering the enemy within the 3s you see them.

 

Main issue is definitely the mods giving too much power to the Warframe and weapons, followed by the broken AI. After that is only the stealth and parkour.

Edited November 9, 2014 by matrixEXO

[dashashou]

stealth AI work is hard - and frankly there  too bsy making things that sell this game to be bothered with stealth / AI work - heck look at kubrows pathfinding  and even the map design of black screen us back to the jumping point instead of having us climbing  out of the  hole we just jumped into.

 

heck atm  it ill advised  to accualty use a stealth attack it takes a long time does less dmg , and  leaves you vulnerable ; when you could just do a  than a sliding spin attack  that does more dmg , and keeps you moving forward . 

 

I just don't see it  getting better  de does not up-date core game play 

 

and Parkour  and stealth  are best when linked  but consider  some of the arkham games where u fly above  then swoop down  to stealth KO a mob  - that's  the perfect example of both  worlds intermixing and complement eachor 

 

i 'm afraid the best where going to get if we get anything is a archwing style chain melee hit on stealth  

[unknow99]

Stealth and parkour are two entirely different beasts.

 

Stealth is a different way of playing the game, parkour (theoretically) is a tool for you to use like a weapon or a frame. Improvements to parkour benefit all playstyles.

 

The problem with stealth is that it just doesn't fit. Unlike parkour, which has a wide variety of applications across many playstyles, stealth would be completely eclipsed by aggressive run-n-gun play in a team, and only really be useful for cool factor or things like rescue 2.0 where it's forced.

 

It's never been a core feature, at least not in the time I've been playing. The desire for it mostly stems from the "ninja" references, as illogical as those often are. 

 

The final point to consider is that the core feature improvement cycle differs vastly from the "2.0" cycle. If you compared the parkour system at its introduction to what we have today, you'd see improvement across the board. Same goes for what little we have stealth-wise. Of course, since these changes don't come as a big numbered point all at once, they essentially don't exist. 

Oh I think I understand what you're blaming in OP's opinions,and it's true : stealth isn't a main thing.

 

However, it can stay a side feature, but a well done side feature... You see? This way usual players can do missions normally, run&gun or whatever they want, but those who seek the narrow ways can have better tools to fill their objectives. Stealth crowd is happy, normal crowd is happy, rambo-press-4 crowd is happy.

 

Quoting DE : "To encourage and facilitate different gameplay styles (like stealth)"

[matrixEXO]

Quoting DE : "To encourage and facilitate different gameplay styles (like stealth)"

Only if they are all done properly and tied together well. Which is what DE doesn't do well. Each and every setpiece in anything that they do is individual and doesn't flow well when combined with others. Imagine if I wanted to run-gun for the beginning of the mission then switch to playing full-on stealth. Supposed your quote is what they take to heart, then this entire game just contradicts it entirely due to the failure that is in both the AI and the functionality of the stealth system.

[unknow99]

Only if they are all done properly and tied together well. Which is what DE doesn't do well. Each and every setpiece in anything that they do is individual and doesn't flow well when combined with others. Imagine if I wanted to run-gun for the beginning of the mission then switch to playing full-on stealth. Supposed your quote is what they take to heart, then this entire game just contradicts it entirely due to the failure that is in both the AI and the functionality of the stealth system.

Yes but this game could have two viable yet different playstyles. Remember that it keeps getting polished & polished as time goes by.

 

Why does everyone think D.E. can't manage to do this?... :/

[Rikage]

 

-A way of telling if enemies are behind the next door on another tile so you don't walk into them face first

-Some signal for when enemies are coming through doors

You can sort these 2 out using mods like enemy sense though... or using the least remembered effect of banshee's sonar ability