Why No Stealth Changes In A Full Year Or So Despite Being Core Gameplay?

[vaugahn]

Yes but this game could have two viable yet different playstyles. Remember that it keeps getting polished & polished as time goes by.

 

Why does everyone think D.E. can't manage to do this?... :/

 

The problem isn't whether DE is capable or not, they're well capable. That much is obvious. 

 

The problem is that the idea of stealth being a viable alternative to run-n-gun is blown completely out of the water by abilities (which reward active combat), guns (which reward active combat) and enemy design (which rewards active combat). Making stealth a viable alternative would require restructuring all those elements, which is not ideal. 

[unknow99]

The problem isn't whether DE is capable or not, they're well capable. That much is obvious. 

 

The problem is that the idea of stealth being a viable alternative to run-n-gun is blown completely out of the water by abilities (which reward active combat), guns (which reward active combat) and enemy design (which rewards active combat). Making stealth a viable alternative would require restructuring all those elements, which is not ideal. 

There must be a way to improve stealth without affecting run&gun people.

 

This is what I mean & try to suggest vaug, not transform Warframe entirely into MGS. :p

[Sixty5]

Stealth isn't a key feature of the game. It is an adpect within the game that allows for certain actions to be taken.

It won't work at all in any endless mission type given that sort of missions nature.

Other missions you can stealth and that is peachy. Until you realise that in a public game the guy who wants to go slow and careful is the minority. And will be left behind.

Sneak missions could be a thing, but having them insta-fail if you are detected would be too harsh, and any less of a consequence would mean that it would just be better to sprint through and nuke everything.

Rescue missions are great if you want to play sneaky, they actually reward it.

But in any case, stealth has never really been a major feature of this game. Its there if you want to play around with it, but forcing it in a game that isn't focused on it is stupid.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Why no PvP changes?

[vaugahn]

There must be a way to improve stealth without affecting run&gun people.

 

This is what I mean & try to suggest vaug, not transform Warframe entirely into MGS. :p

 

Trust me, I've thought about it. 

 

The main problem is that a stealth player simply cannot compete in terms of speed compared to a run-n-gun player. The run-n-gun player will always be able to engage more enemies and faster than a stealth player. Stealth players either have to bring one of a few silent weapons, or sacrifice a mod slot to silence their gun, whereas run-n-gun players can use whatever weapon/mods they want. Stealth players don't get to take full advantage of abilities, one of the core mechanics of the game. 

 

This simply isn't a stealth game. To use the comparison, tenno are more special forces than ninja. They're sneaky, but not stealthy. 

 

If anything, I'd suggest making stealth attacks not locked to an animation, and work on any enemy not currently aware of you, so you can take full advantage of flanking maneuvers. That's really the only improvement I can think of off the top of my head though.

 

Edit: just for clarity, my problem isn't with stealth players or anything. My problem is with people who treat stealth like some silver bullet for this game's problems.

Edited November 9, 2014 by vaugahn

[unknow99]

Trust me, I've thought about it. 

 

The main problem is that a stealth player simply cannot compete in terms of speed compared to a run-n-gun player. The run-n-gun player will always be able to engage more enemies and faster than a stealth player. Stealth players either have to bring one of a few silent weapons, or sacrifice a mod slot to silence their gun, whereas run-n-gun players can use whatever weapon/mods they want. Stealth players don't get to take full advantage of abilities, one of the core mechanics of the game. 

 

This simply isn't a stealth game. To use the comparison, tenno are more special forces than ninja. They're sneaky, but not stealthy. 

 

If anything, I'd suggest making stealth attacks not locked to an animation, and work on any enemy not currently aware of you, so you can take full advantage of flanking maneuvers. That's really the only improvement I can think of off the top of my head though.

 

Edit: just for clarity, my problem isn't with stealth players or anything. My problem is with people who treat stealth like some silver bullet for this game's problems.

That's some relevant points you got there.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it really meaningful is that I keep suggesting stealth improvements... Or is it in vain?...

 

 

Nah really : Am I wasting my time? D.E.! Any staff member!! I know that Mr Sinclair can't stop talking about space ninja but c'mon...

Edited November 10, 2014 by unknow99

[(PSN)Pharen]

Because stealth is not an easy thing to program into a game that is built by procedural generation. DE have said again and again, they are testing and working on new ideas to put into the game, but they are not ready at this stage.

[omegaskorpion]

Personally, I would say the reason why we are OP is because of that power fantasy overflow from DE's side. Not the stealth nor the parkour. In fact, even if they fixed stealth and parkour, we would still be too OP. If weapons and warframes never had any mods to 'customise your playstyle' then most likely, you would see a very very broken AI. The power fantasy which DE provides overlaps the broken AI designs because you barely notice it when you go on slaughtering the enemy within the 3s you see them.

 

Main issue is definitely the mods giving too much power to the Warframe and weapons, followed by the broken AI. After that is only the stealth and parkour.

 

i meant that we are op because our warframe powers and weapons rek every enemy we see, there is no chalence. And because of that there is no reason to sneak since enemys are so weak.

 

parkour is just broken and even in stealth it would break momentum. (jump to wall and you are lauched to the sky uncontrollably)

 

i have sayd 100000 times that mods are even bigger issue in balance since they focus on daamge, not on customization

[Derethevil]

The biggest issue i have with stealth is that enemies instantly know where you are, if one just sees you for an blink of an eye. 
Like if he sees me, right as the arrow is in front of his head, which is about to hit.

Just like that, everyone runs towards me, knows exactly where i am and the whole room + some of the next room, which are acting like a domino effect.

That kills all stealth mechanics.
I mean the best thing you can do now is to reset the alarm again... but good luck killing all enemies at once, so no witness is alive.

If this wouldnt happen, you could even play a Rhino with stealth action.

[unknow99]

The biggest issue i have with stealth is that enemies instantly know where you are, if one just sees you for an blink of an eye. 

Like if he sees me, right as the arrow is in front of his head, which is about to hit.

Just like that, everyone runs towards me, knows exactly where i am and the whole room + some of the next room, which are acting like a domino effect.

That kills all stealth mechanics.

I mean the best thing you can do now is to reset the alarm again... but good luck killing all enemies at once, so no witness is alive.

If this wouldnt happen, you could even play a Rhino with stealth action.

I agree,except for your last sentence : stealth should be viable with any frame,not just Loki/Ash..

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Yes but this game could have two viable yet different playstyles. Remember that it keeps getting polished & polished as time goes by.

 

Why does everyone think D.E. can't manage to do this?... :/

Simply because a good stealth system requires the game to be built around it.

-too many enemies

-too linear maps

-too few ways to stealth (invisibility, roofs, hiding in grass, etc)

-no big incentive to stealth

-automatic detection (for all others) when an enemy sees you

 

Those are the biggest problems. Some of which would require a big overhaul and essentially hurt the rest of the game.

Edited November 10, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[omegaskorpion]

Simply because a good stealth system requires the game to be built around it.

-too many enemies

-too linear maps

-too few ways to stealth (invisibility, roofs, hiding in grass, etc)

-no big incentive to stealth

-automatic detection (for all others) when an enemy sees you

 

Those are the biggest problems. Some of which would require a big overhaul and essentially hurt the rest of the game.

 

- there are many enemys usualy only when alert is on

- maps are linear but with parcour changes it could be nice help to make maps larger and most of the stealth games, like mgs are linear.

- in grineer galleons there are many places to hide just like in earth. There also could/should be ways to camouflace.

- there arent stealth rewards so that is bad thing.

- that can be fixed with coding enemy ai.

 

There should be few things that help stealth:

 

1: harder enemys,

2: stealth kills are instant.

3: enemys react to sounds and objects but wont detect players instantly.

4: powers like mindcontroll and decoy gather enemys attention to them, not players.

5: enemys should have alert states.

6: weapon shots wont alert enemys but make them panic, and making them go behind cover or seek the source of sound.

7: making us able to HUG walls to reduce our visibility

 

Some of thease changes are ease to make, some of them are not. 

[fatpig84]

Stealth game play now ?

 

 

1) Limbo

2) Rift walk

3) Save hostages.

4) Banish hostages. 

5) ?????

 

Stealth play yeaaaaaaaah

Edited November 10, 2014 by fatpig84

[matrixEXO]

- maps are linear but with parcour changes it could be nice help to make maps larger and most of the stealth games, like mgs are linear.

When he said linear, he meant that there isn't many ways to approach a tile for stealth. The major plus for a really good stealth game is the ability to tackle any situation with a variety of routes, ways and styles.

 

Personally, the older ship tiles and doorways make for very linear map designs. Straight narrow passageways with no capability to see enemies around the corner or behind the door.

[omegaskorpion]

When he said linear, he meant that there isn't many ways to approach a tile for stealth. The major plus for a really good stealth game is the ability to tackle any situation with a variety of routes, ways and styles.

 

Personally, the older ship tiles and doorways make for very linear map designs. Straight narrow passageways with no capability to see enemies around the corner or behind the door.

 

yes that is tru

[unknow99]

Simply because a good stealth system requires the game to be built around it.

-too many enemies

-too linear maps

-too few ways to stealth (invisibility, roofs, hiding in grass, etc)

-no big incentive to stealth

-automatic detection (for all others) when an enemy sees you

 

Those are the biggest problems. Some of which would require a big overhaul and essentially hurt the rest of the game.

Your counterarguments are true, but they also can be worked on. Also, they have different departments to ""focus"" on different things...Steve & Killerkarpfen can work on new planets tilesets while Geoff is looking at emotes, etc...

 

But ok ok, you obviously don't want stealth. ..

[vaugahn]

Your counterarguments are true, but they also can be worked on. Also, they have different departments to ""focus"" on different things...Steve & Killerkarpfen can work on new planets tilesets while Geoff is looking at emotes, etc...

 

But ok ok, you obviously don't want stealth. ..

It's not that people don't want stealth. Well, at the very least I speak for myself when I say that. Stealth would be just as cool as Archwing, and in many of the same ways. I want stealth in this game.

The problem is that stealth would be just as important to gameplay as Archwing (currently) is. And to make it part of the "core" gameplay, we'd have to radically rethink the power distributed to players and enemies, as well as many other fundamental game mechanics, in a massive way that even expansions like Archwing don't require.

Essentially, you can think of arguments against a stealth system the same as arguments against a cover system; the game simply isn't set up like that, and while a simplified and streamlined version could be cool/useful, it's far from "core".

[unknow99]

It's not that people don't want stealth. Well, at the very least I speak for myself when I say that. Stealth would be just as cool as Archwing, and in many of the same ways. I want stealth in this game.

The problem is that stealth would be just as important to gameplay as Archwing (currently) is. And to make it part of the "core" gameplay, we'd have to radically rethink the power distributed to players and enemies, as well as many other fundamental game mechanics, in a massive way that even expansions like Archwing don't require.

Essentially, you can think of arguments against a stealth system the same as arguments against a cover system; the game simply isn't set up like that, and while a simplified and streamlined version could be cool/useful, it's far from "core".

Well,can't say much against it...

 

Hey evryone! Just saw an amazing to encourage & reward sneaking around, from a genius redditor :) :

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/2lszht/simple_idea_for_stealth_mission_reward_no/

Edited November 10, 2014 by unknow99

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

- there are many enemys usualy only when alert is on

- maps are linear but with parcour changes it could be nice help to make maps larger and most of the stealth games, like mgs are linear.

- in grineer galleons there are many places to hide just like in earth. There also could/should be ways to camouflace.

- there arent stealth rewards so that is bad thing.

- that can be fixed with coding enemy ai.

 

Some of thease changes are ease to make, some of them are not.

1) There are too many weak enemies rather than a few, powerful enemies. The hidden staple of good stealth games is the ability to control most, if not all, variables. Allowing enemies to spawn anywhere and having too many to easily track contradicts that. Stealth shouldn't be comprised of killing everything as soon as you see it (because you must eliminate as many variables as possible in order to make them more manageable).

2) Someone already mentioned this. The biggest problem is that there is no way to evade enemies or get around them. Most if the time, you're essentially knocking down walls rather than going around them.

3) That's the problem though. There is little cover that can be used for anything but combat. Not to mention that the y-axis is largely neglected. Shadows, grass/vegetation, etc.

4) What I meant was stealth damage multipliers. There's essentially no reason to use stealth outside of Rescue missions and even then it is a forced playstyle rather than something of choice.

5) The problem is that it hasn't been done yet.

As a final note, the best and simplest thing to achieve is to add a damage bonus to stealth kills. This wil allow players to play up their level. The MJ1-Paris us essentially crap after the first quest/tutorial. This will players to go up in level and play things that would normally be out if their league.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

It's never been a core feature, at least not in the time I've been playing. The desire for it mostly stems from the "ninja" references, as illogical as those often are.

 

I don't consider ninja references to entirely illogical. After all that is the core theme of the game and that does count for something. Think of how people would've reacted to ACIV: Black Flag if played like AC2. Most of that games success was, arguably, due to its theme and how they properly delivered it. So when your tagline is "Ninjas play free" you would come to expect that being a ninja would be a part of the core experience. Now I'm not saying that it is impossible to make a ninja themed game without stealth. But not only did DE include stealth mechanics in their game they have said on several occasions that they want stealth gameplay to be viable yet it seems that they aren't pushing towards it. It makes sense that the people that come looking for that experience are more than a little disappointed at this point.

 

And to piggyback off of that. It seems that the main features that would go into pushing the ninja-like theme are the ones that people seem to be most disappointed with. Melee, stealth, and parkour when implemented well could help to give the "badass ninja" feel but instead the majority of gameplay is spent sprinting and putting bullets in things.

[vaugahn]

I don't consider ninja references to entirely illogical. After all that is the core theme of the game and that does count for something. Think of how people would've reacted to ACIV: Black Flag if played like AC2. Most of that games success was, arguably, due to its theme and how they properly delivered it. So when your tagline is "Ninjas play free" you would come to expect that being a ninja would be a part of the core experience. Now I'm not saying that it is impossible to make a ninja themed game without stealth. But not only did DE include stealth mechanics in their game they have said on several occasions that they want stealth gameplay to be viable yet it seems that they aren't pushing towards it. It makes sense that the people that come looking for that experience are more than a little disappointed at this point.

 

And to piggyback off of that. It seems that the main features that would go into pushing the ninja-like theme are the ones that people seem to be most disappointed with. Melee, stealth, and parkour when implemented well could help to give the "badass ninja" feel but instead the majority of gameplay is spent sprinting and putting bullets in things.

 

I actually somewhat resent that tagline. 

 

It refers to the player, not the character. If you have ninja skills, you can play free. Basically. The ninja aesthetic is present as well, but that's just an aesthetic, and there are many other aesthetics that go with it. 

 

This is not a ninja game. That much has been clear for a long time now. Perhaps it was more ninja in the earliest days of CBT before I joined, not sure about that one though. There are so many more improvements I can think of that would better our core gameplay, but a stealth system simply isn't one of them. At its core, Warframe is a fast-paced TPS dungeon crawler with science fantasy sensibilities.