Hot Fox On Rhino Action! (Not Really, It's Just A Rhino Reworking Thread With A Humongous First Post)

[phazefox]

so this post is actually just a copy of a post i made on one of the hot topic rhino threads, but i'd really like some feedback on my ideas, and searching for them in that thread could get pretty anoying, so i'm just gonna put my ideas for rhino here, i really hope someone reads them and gives their opinion about it:

FIRST OF ALL, THE STATS:

 as is now, rhino is FAR from truely tanky, he can take a hit but can't really tank anything without iron skin, and even with it he's not getting far in the tanking department so, here's what i'd do for him:

we go from:                       to:

health: 100                       health: 200
shields: 150                     shields: 100
armor: 190                        armor: 300
energy: 100                       energy: 100
stamina: 100                     stamina: 100
speed: 0.9                         speed: 0.9

that should make rhino a true tank, massive survivavility and all that stuff. oh and i'll put rhino prime too just because:

from this:                     to this:

health: 100                 health: 200
shields: 150               shields: 100
armor: 190                  armor: 375
energy: 100                 energy: 100
stamina: 100               stamina: 100
speed: 1.0                  speed: 0.9

NO SPEED RHINO FOR YOU!, seriously though, making rhino so (potentially) fast simply doesn't fit, he's the heavy armor frame, not the flying brick frame. not to mention rhino prime looks more armored, so he should be more armored right? (btw i've done the calculations, the +75 armor is effectively like giving rhino p +50 base HP)

NOW FOR THE ABILITIES: i have to say it, there's something i'd change in every single one of his abilities(none of them change the ability's core though, just tweaks them, sometimes a lot, but without loosing the theme)

RHINO CHARGE:

 first of all, add a forced blast proc and/or make all affected enemies get minimal SIDEWAYS ragdoll(as in perpendicular from rhino's charging), this way if he slams into a wall of enemies he can simply toss them aside, note that the ragdoll is MINIMAL, it's not meant to be sending mooks flying, it's there just to make sure everything in rhino's way (short of a wall or unknockdownable boss) is pushed aside.

 

second, switch speed to 25/30/35/40 meters per second, normal duration would be 1 second; as before, both speed and duration would be affected by duration mods, but speed would only get 50% of the power duration boost.

finally, make it so rhino's direction can be "tilted" sideways with the respective directional keys, this wouldn't change rhino's forwards speed, think of it as adjusting trajectory mid-charge, also, pressing the back/down key mid-charge would cancel the charge.

this way rhino would both get a very good movility tool, while not really getting too fast with it, and a consistent way to punch holes in enemy groups.

ROAR:

this one's pretty simple, increase the dmg buff a bit, right now it's base +50%, making it about base +75% or a bit more would make it more consistenly usefull, leave everything else as is. roar is a pretty good ability in theory, but in practice the dmg buff is pretty underwhelming.

second, improve it's visual effect, make on-cast energy burst look more impresive, and make it so the buff's effect on warframes is colored by rhino's energy color.

also, make it so rhino draws aggro on cast radius, it'd be an "on-cast" thing, as in he draws aggro on cast, but doesn't get a "threat level" increase(check the wiki for details on "threat level" if you don't know what it is/how it works), nor draws aggro during the buff

RHINO STOMP:

nothing much here, i actually think this ability works pretty much fine, all it needs is for the stasis time to be affected by power duration, otherwise it's perfectly fine.

however, it also needs a visual rework, the visual effects for it are pretty underwhelming right now, it just doesn't look very powerfull, and being a stomp so strong it bends the space-time continuum, it really should look spectacular. oh and making the floating debris more ambiguous looking would help a lot. the floating debris fits the ability pretty well; it clearly being chunks of torn metal plates/grates when you cast it on ground or ice/snow doesn't.

IRON SKIN:

now this is the big one, i'm proposing a LOAD of changes to this one, so get ready for a long LONG read, and in case you're wondering, making a TLDR is imposible(at least for me), too many little details.

first, make it so iron skin is no longer dispelled by falling into a hole/pit/abyss(it really makes no sense, specially considering we normally take no dmg from that), add a -10% movement speed debuff while iron skin is up (affects both normal and sprint speeds), and make it so shields don't regen while IS is taking dmg.

 

second, increase base iron skin health to 750/1000/1250/1500, affected by power strenght, but caps at +100% (that's 1500/2000/2500/3000). i will refer to this health as "preventive health", for future reference.

 

third, add a 0/1/2/3 second invulnerability on cast(can't be modified), rhino gets a great increase in threat level during this time(higher than that of chaos'd enemies and molt/decoy) and can't sprint nor use weapons or abilities(except for roar), (it'd be pretty awesome if he had an "I'M ROARING LIKE MAD AND OVERALL LOOKING VERY INTIMIDATING" animation during this), once the invul period ends his threat level goes down, but is still higher than normal (should be higher than normal but lower than chaos'd enemies),

all would-be-taken damage that reaches rhino during this 3 second period is instead "stored" and added as extra health for iron skin (note that this is after iron skin kicks in, so the dmg doesn't take armor into consideration). this will be refered to as "reactive health" for future reference.

"reactive health" is consumed BEFORE "preventive health", both take dmg the same way iron skin does now (aka, they take dmg instead of rhino), with one exception, 50% of magnetic dmg would go to IS, and 50% to your shields (if you have no shields it all goes to IS)

 

when "reactive health" takes dmg, rhino takes 60% of that dmg(as it's respective dmg type), dmg mitigation affected by power strenght mods (starts at 40%,is capped at 80%)

 

when "preventive health" takes damage, rhino takes a portion of that dmg as shield bypassing finisher dmg(aka, it ignores shields, armor, and resistances/weaknesses), said dmg increases the more damaged iron skin is, to be precise(note: PH = "preventive health"):

dmg taken by rhino on health = (damage taken by IS)*(max PH - current PH left)/(3*max PH), as finisher dmg.

this makes max effective PH roughly 2500, it'd only be 3k if a single blow takes out 3k(or more) of it, and would be less than 2.5k if there's ANY overdmg on iron skin(aka, the last blow deals more dmg than would destroy IS), overdmg still goes to rhino btw.

 

all damage taken by rhino while iron skin is on will be refered to as "collateral damage" for future reference

if rhino were to die due to "collateral damage", instead he'd survive with his current health (as in, right before the "killing" blow), however, he would not keep more than 100 of said health, and shields would be damaged instead (as in they'd take the blow instead of rhino's health, without overdmg reaching the later);  also, IS would instantly break AND rhino would get a small stagger (think impact proc).

rework proc/status effect interaction (yes this means some inmunities would be removed), for precision:

keep all stun/stagger/knockdown/knockback/pushback/ragdoll inmunity.

impact proc: inmune ('cus of the aforementioned stagger inmunity)

puncture proc: inmune.

slash proc: inmune.

cold proc: affects rhino normally.

electric proc: ignores stun, electric dmg AoE/chain attack hits IS and allies if within range.

heat proc: hits IS.

toxin proc: hits rhino's health, NOT IS. (does NOT count as "collateral dmg")

blast proc: ignores knockdown on rhino, but the knockdown AoE affects allies if within range.

corrosive proc: degrades 25% of IS's remaining health; this is NOT dmg, and as such doesn't harm rhino's health regardless of whether or not only "preventive health" is left on IS.

gas proc: hits IS (and any allies within range).

magnetic proc: affects rhino normally.

radiation proc: affects rhino normally.

viral proc: inmune.

with these changes using iron skin preventively would basically be a "mode change", as with the increased threat level, slight slowdown, and other stuff, survivavility wouldn't be much higher than without it (heck it may even be lower as you can't heal iron skin), but with the addition of the "reactive health", survivavility would go up a lot, and said increase would scale with enemy level.

 

 

all of the numbers i've put would obviously have to be tested and adjusted through in-game testing, they are all just estimates; but i think the fuctionality changes would effectivelly improve rhino's gameplay, avoiding the abuse of some powers, while improving the performance of those that need it, and also making rhino more of a proper tank like he's supposed to be.

feel free to comment on my ideas, i'd actually aprecciate some constructive criticism, i'll simply ignore any insulting or rude comments though, so if you're gonna be an @$$ don't bother adressing me.

 

 

oh and to all the forum moderators /DE staff that comes across this thread, if there's any rule that says i can't take a post i made in another thread and make a thread about it, then please shut down this thread, and i apologise for creating it in the first place.

Edited November 11, 2014 by phazefox

[izzatuw]

So you want Iron Skin to be OP? IS already ignores all procs, why change it? I do agree with everything else but Rhino Roar's great when you install strength mods which Rhino heavily relies on.

[phazefox]

So you want Iron Skin to be OP? IS already ignores all procs, why change it? I do agree with everything else but Rhino Roar's great when you install strength mods which Rhino heavily relies on.

 

how does this make iron skin OP?, it nerfs it's potential preventive capabilities, adds aggro to it, which means IS will be taking a lot more damage, slows rhino down while using it, removes proc inmunity (but not movement impairment inmunity), also allowing iron skin to be damaged by some procs, adds a reactive action bonus, and lets it be more viable in high level content without really buffing it on lower level content.

 

it's not that i don't believe my idea for IS can be OP, everyone can make mistakes, it's just that i don't get how it is, could you please explain it?

 

also, while i do agree that roar is usefull, i really do think it's buff is a bit underwhelming, it's dwarved by other buffs, and i really think a 25% increase in it wouldn't be that much.

 

thanks for your opinon and, in advance, the explanation for why my idea for IS is OP.

[izzatuw]

how does this make iron skin OP?, it nerfs it's potential preventive capabilities, adds aggro to it, which means IS will be taking a lot more damage, slows rhino down while using it, removes proc inmunity (but not movement impairment inmunity), also allowing iron skin to be damaged by some procs, adds a reactive action bonus, and lets it be more viable in high level content without really buffing it on lower level content.

 

it's not that i don't believe my idea for IS can be OP, everyone can make mistakes, it's just that i don't get how it is, could you please explain it?

 

also, while i do agree that roar is usefull, i really do think it's buff is a bit underwhelming, it's dwarved by other buffs, and i really think a 25% increase in it wouldn't be that much.

 

thanks for your opinon and, in advance, the explanation for why my idea for IS is OP.

all would-be-taken damage that reaches rhino during this 3 second period is instead "stored" and added as extra health for iron skin (note that this is after iron skin kicks in, so the dmg doesn't take armor into consideration). this will be refered to as "reactive health" for future reference.

This bit here confused me, so it's like Absorb? What I'm currently thinking is that if he takes 10K in the 3 seconds, he'll be having a 10K Iron Skin?"

[phazefox]

not quite, it's actually more like snowglobe, absorb takes ally damage too, snowglobe doesn't, neither would IS; i also have to admit it sounded crazy to me at first too, but there's a few factors you have to take into account so it makes sense:

 

first of all, if he takes 10k dmg in those 3 seconds, he'll also take 10k dmg in the next 3 seconds unless he runs like his underwear is on fire, or gets some help from other frames (like a loki putting up decoys or a nyx using chaos), and even with the other frame's help he'll still be the enemy's priority tenno target due to the increase in threat level; and with the speed debuff that time can't increase much, so rhino'll hardly get more than 9-12 seconds worth of "reactive health"

 

i did mention the 3 invul seconds were unmoddifiable, no matter what you do, you won't get more.

 

taking full advantage of said 3 seconds is a pretty risky move, you have to jump in the middle of a load of enemies BEFORE casting iron skin, if don't do it right you'll get yourself killed, and even if you do you'll have taken a considerable blow on you normal health/shields.

 

while he would still have iron skin's "preventive health", that one i nerfed, so that'd be gone faster than the current iron skin.

 

also (while walking my dog) i noticed some things i forgot to mention, i'll put them in the original post up there, but i will also put them here so you don't have to look for them:

 

i forgot to mention shields would NOT regen if IS is taking dmg, they would regen despite rhino having a toxin proc on(remember this one wouldn't touch IS), but any other kind of dmg would prevent them from recharging.

 

second, during those 3 invul seconds rhino CAN'T USE WEAPONS, NOT EVEN MELEE, it's basically an "i'm being a distraction" time, so whatever time you actually get from your "reactive bonus" the first 3 seconds you won't be dealing dmg; sure you can use other abilities if you want, but roar wouldn't help IS, and both charge and stomp would only reduce the dmg absorbed.

 

also, on the "if you were to be killed while IS is on you survive" thing rhino wouldn't really simply get 100 health, he'd keep his current (as in right before the "killing" blow) health, but only up to 100, and it also was not meant to be universal.

 

it's only supposed to work with IS's "collateral dmg" (that dmg you take while only having "preventive health") and overdamage, in the first case you'd have whatever shields you had left at the time + (100-)*(effective armor multiplier)health, in the second one (as the overdamage would kill off the shields) you'd only have the (100-)*(effective armor multiplier)health, which can't keep you alive for long if you're facing level 30+ enemies. and if it is a proc that kills you (like with "collateral dmg" from a fire or electric proc, or simply a toxin proc) you stay dead.

 

also, i think i'll up the speed debuff to 10%, maybe 15%, just to make sure it's harder to increase the "reactive bonus" time, and 'cus frankly the arcane thrak's debuff is barelly noticeable (was testing it, i remembered it more noticeable)

 

 

btw,if you were activelly waiting for a responce, sorry for taking long to respond, i was having lunch and then went walk my dog.

 

EDIT: i forgot to meniton why change the absolute proc inmunity, it's basically so iron skin doesn't plain ol' negate everything, i get rhino going all "implacable man" and being unstopable while having IS on, but unstopable doesn't mean unaffectable/unkillable, to me he should be both, though still being far less vulnerable than without IS.

 

... i make very long posts don't i?, sry if it's too big a wall of text, i just try to explain things as best as i can.

Edited November 10, 2014 by phazefox

[Azawarau]

how does this make iron skin OP?, it nerfs it's potential preventive capabilities, adds aggro to it, which means IS will be taking a lot more damage, slows rhino down while using it, removes proc inmunity (but not movement impairment inmunity), also allowing iron skin to be damaged by some procs, adds a reactive action bonus, and lets it be more viable in high level content without really buffing it on lower level content.

 

it's not that i don't believe my idea for IS can be OP, everyone can make mistakes, it's just that i don't get how it is, could you please explain it?

 

also, while i do agree that roar is usefull, i really do think it's buff is a bit underwhelming, it's dwarved by other buffs, and i really think a 25% increase in it wouldn't be that much.

 

thanks for your opinon and, in advance, the explanation for why my idea for IS is OP.

Because it scales infinitely and is mobile

 

Your only chance to die is the moments you dont have IS while recasting for 12 energy

 

Also it flatlines gameplay which is bad for most powers

 

After a point IS base HP wont matter in deciding how long it lasts

 

Most players will mod for efficiency if they plan to break 100 and everything after that is the same

 

IS lasts as long on a lvl 100 as it would on 3-400

 

Theres also the buff to base HP making it  even more OP for under lvl 35

 

For 35-50 with iron skin as is its flimsy but spammable so its ok if you keep moving

 

It could be better though

[HAYABU5A]

*sigh* another one of these threads...

 

i like the charge and roar suggestions

charge would be fun to use like that and more damage for roar might help convince rhinos to use it more often and be more team oriented 

[phazefox]

@asawaru

 

first of all, read more closelly, the IS base HP change is a nerf, not a buff, sure it has a bigger initial number, but once everything else comes into account it's a nerf.

 

second, rhino would now get a few disadvantages for using iron skin, and would no longer be totaly proc inmune, which also makes IS less OP/last less.

 

however, i do get your point, though i really don't see the problem with powers scaling indefinetly, any sort of % dmg mitigation scales infinitely, and noone seems to have any trouble with that, i guess making something like iron skin scale that way would be too much though, here's an idea:

 

make it so the added health only blocks a part of the dmg, that is, when IS'S "reactive health" takes X dmg, rhino takes Y% of said dmg, this way there'd be two parts to iron skin, with the added health being far less effective at blocking dmg than the base health, how does that sound?

 

EDIT: you know what that sounds good to me, i'll change it up there in the first post.

 

MOAR EDIT: here's what i changed, just so you don't have to look for it:

 

0/1/2/3 second invulnerability on cast(can't be modified), rhino gets a great increase in threat level during this time(higher than that of chaos'd enemies and molt/decoy) and can't sprint nor use weapons or abilities(except for roar), (it'd be pretty awesome if he had an "I'M ROARING LIKE MAD AND OVERALL LOOKING VERY INTIMIDATING" animation during this), once the invul period ends his threat level goes down, but is still higher than normal (should be higher than normal but lower than chaos'd enemies),

 

when "reactive health" takes dmg, rhino takes 60% of that dmg(as it's respective dmg type), dmg mitigation affected by power strenght mods (starts at 40%,is capped at 80%)

 

all damage taken by rhino while iron skin is on will be refered to as "collateral damage" for future reference

if rhino were to die due to "collateral damage", instead he'd survive with his current health (as in, right before the "killing" blow), however, he would not keep more than 100 of said health, and shields would be damaged instead (as in they'd take the blow instead of rhino's health, without overdmg reaching the later);  also, IS would instantly break AND rhino would get a small stagger (think impact proc).

toxin proc: hits rhino's health, NOT IS. (does NOT count as "collateral dmg")

 

*sigh* another one of these threads...

 

could you please explain what "one of these threads" means?

Edited November 11, 2014 by phazefox

[Azawarau]

@asawaru

 

first of all, read more closelly, the IS base HP change is a nerf, not a buff, sure it has a bigger initial number, but once everything else comes into account it's a nerf.

 

second, rhino would now get a few disadvantages for using iron skin, and would no longer be totaly proc inmune, which also makes IS less OP/last less.

 

however, i do get your point, though i really don't see the problem with powers scaling indefinetly, any sort of % dmg mitigation scales infinitely, and noone seems to have any trouble with that, i guess making something like iron skin scale that way would be too much though, here's an idea:

 

make it so the added health only blocks a part of the dmg, that is, when IS'S "reactive health" takes X dmg, rhino takes Y% of said dmg, this way there'd be two parts to iron skin, with the added health being far less effective at blocking dmg than the base health, how does that sound?

 

EDIT: you know what that sounds good to me, i'll change it up there in the first post.

 

MOAR EDIT: here's what i changed, just so you don't have to look for it:

 

0/1/2/3 second invulnerability on cast(can't be modified), rhino gets a great increase in threat level during this time(higher than that of chaos'd enemies and molt/decoy) and can't sprint nor use weapons or abilities(except for roar), (it'd be pretty awesome if he had an "I'M ROARING LIKE MAD AND OVERALL LOOKING VERY INTIMIDATING" animation during this), once the invul period ends his threat level goes down, but is still higher than normal (should be higher than normal but lower than chaos'd enemies),

 

when "reactive health" takes dmg, rhino takes 60% of that dmg(as it's respective dmg type), dmg mitigation affected by power strenght mods (starts at 40%,is capped at 80%)

 

all damage taken by rhino while iron skin is on will be refered to as "collateral damage" for future reference

if rhino were to die due to "collateral damage", instead he'd survive with his current health (as in, right before the "killing" blow), however, he would not keep more than 100 of said health, and shields would be damaged instead (as in they'd take the blow instead of rhino's health, without overdmg reaching the later);  also, IS would instantly break AND rhino would get a small stagger (think impact proc).

toxin proc: hits rhino's health, NOT IS. (does NOT count as "collateral dmg")

 

 

could you please explain what "one of these threads" means?

You spelled by name worse than anyone ever has.....

 

I know its a nerf

 

What i was saaying is its a good thing it wasnt 80% DR to this day or it wouldve stayed that way VIA noise

 

Anyways

 

Im absolutely against DR mechanics in general as they obsolete armor

 

Ive actually got a thought

 

What if we were to consider a possible shield rework as well into rhinos kit

 

There may be one on the way and it should be considered for changes as a possibility

[Kruglov]

This still doesn't make Iron Skin scale unless the Rhino purposely tries to get the skin shredded off and then activates it JUST as he's being shot at by a particularly strong enemy.

Which is a fool's errand.

 

It also doesn't fix the issue that Iron Skin doesn't benefit anyone on Rhino's team.

 

You made Charge useful because it knocks down enemies.

That's useful no matter what level enemies are. They could be level 9999999 and they'd still get knocked away. That's fantastic.

 

But with Iron Skin it's like... "okay let me delay my cast until I'm being shot at by a level 999999 enemy and then hit 2 the very moment the missile/bomb/bullet hits me!" which is pretty stupid.

 

Just increasing the raw numbers for Iron Skin, even with a brief invulnerability like Frost's bubble, still doesn't help it actually scale.

It's still going to be shredded off, only now it will take SLIGHTLY longer. Whoop dee doo.

 

Simultaneously, what is Rhino accomplishing by timing his Iron Skin casting JUST AS he's being shot at? How is having slightly fatter Iron Skin helping his team? Simply put, it isn't. It's the same ability as before only meatier. But it needs more than meat. It needs to provide some sort of bonus to his entire team, even if it's like Roar where they are in a particular radius.

 

 

The Roar idea is brilliant. It SHOULD increase threat level as well though I should feel. Let Rhino be giant bait, making all enemies in a map stop what they are doing and look at HIM. LOOK AT ME. SHOOT ME. Not my team.

[TheOniStixx]

I would like to start off saying that I don't like the idea of the slow duration on Rhino Stomp being affected by Power Duration. Stomp's unchangeable slow lets players build a really good damage nuke without sacrificing the incredible CC it gives. Those 8 seconds are fair because it gives players time to revive downed players, kill an eximus or two, etc. and doesn't make it so that they are immobile for 30-40 seconds like a Molecular Prime or like a max efficiency Banshee using Sound Quake. It gives a damage option that lets him still play as a type of support.

 

The Iron Skin idea doesn't sit well with me. I do think that IS needs to have more health or some other way to last longer and I can see why you would give it the invulnerability time period, but the way that the "reactive" and "preventive" health is stated doesn't really seem like the way to go. I always used it as a buffer from damage to let me get into position to use Stomp or revive players or even take a capture target while under fire. I also do believe that with the better health for IS that a good aggro system could be put in for it.

[phazefox]

@azawarau

 

well we'll have to agree to disagree here, i think DR mechanics are fine, and really don't think they make armor obsolete, as they actually act mutiplicatively with it (for example, 600 armor = 300% effective health, that + 50% DR = 600% effective health (as armor covers whatever dmg you actually take), but on a hipotetical 0 armor frame, 50% DR = 200% effective health)

 

regarding a shield rework, yhea i gues that's an option, but if we were to go there we'd have to take EVERY frame into account, and make another thread about it, 'cus i don't want this thread derailing from one subject to another.

 

also, with the change in IS's "reactive health" from absolute dmg protection to DR with a health based duration, and the change to "collateral dmg survival", iron skin would break sooner if rhino takes a big enough blow(and get rhino staggered, and likelly killed), hence stopping it from scaling indefinetly, just saying.

 

oh and sorry for mispelling your name before, it was like 2am and i was sleepy as hell.

 

@Kruglov,

 

i didn't put the threat level increase on roar for 3 reasons: 1, the aggro draw seemed like enough; 2, roar gives rhino nothing to take the extra dmg he'd get from becoming a priority target; 3, keep reading, it's down there.

 

@Kruglov & TheOniStixx

 

with the changes i proposed, you could still use iron skin the way it's used now, but it'd be more of a "switch movility for resistance/proc protection" thing.

 

the idea behind giving it the "reactive bonus", was to well, give a bonus for more thought out actions over simply casting IS as soon as you can.

 

and lastly (and the 3'd reason for not putting the threat level increase in roar), iron skin DOES help the rest of the team, i DID give it a threat level increase, while invul it's so high it out-threats everything, once the invul is gone it remains high enough for rhino to still be the primary tenno target, but low enough so things like decoy, molt, and chaos can divert attention from rhino, but he'd still be the priority target among the tenno squad (and preferably still the priority target even counting rescue targets and the like).

 

basically, it's not roar doing the "LOOK AT ME SHOOT AT ME" thing, it's iron skin, why? well 'cus iron skin lets rhino take more dmg, hence making him a better decoy.

 

@TheONiStixx.

 

the thing with stomp is really only 'cus of fleeting expertise abuse, and frankly i think that's a problem in banshee too, and you have to consider that A) banshee uses energy over time, so if she really was too keep everything stunlocked for 40 seconds she'd have to waste nearly all her energy, unlike rhino who only needs 25 energy per cast, and B) sound quake's range is considerably shorter than stomp's.

 

also, you have to consider both banshee and nova (specially nova) are way WAY frailer than rhino, it's one thing to be able to stunlock/slowdown enemies like mad when otherwise you'd die ultrafast, and another thing is to be able to do so while also being able to take massive amounths of dmg, like a tank(aka rhino) should be able to.

Edited November 11, 2014 by phazefox

[Azawarau]

@azawarau

 

well we'll have to agree to disagree here, i think DR mechanics are fine, and really don't think they make armor obsolete, as they actually act mutiplicatively with it (for example, 600 armor = 300% effective health, that + 50% DR = 600% effective health (as armor covers whatever dmg you actually take), but on a hipotetical 0 armor frame, 50% DR = 200% effective health)

 

regarding a shield rework, yhea i gues that's an option, but if we were to go there we'd have to take EVERY frame into account, and make another thread about it, 'cus i don't want this thread derailing from one subject to another.

 

also, with the change in IS's "reactive health" from absolute dmg protection to DR with a health based duration, and the change to "collateral dmg survival", iron skin would break sooner if rhino takes a big enough blow(and get rhino staggered, and likelly killed), hence stopping it from scaling indefinetly, just saying.

 

oh and sorry for mispelling your name before, it was like 2am and i was sleepy as hell.

 

@Kruglov,

 

i didn't put the threat level increase on roar for 3 reasons: 1, the aggro draw seemed like enough; 2, roar gives rhino nothing to take the extra dmg he'd get from becoming a priority target; 3, keep reading, it's down there.

 

@Kruglov & TheOniStixx

 

with the changes i proposed, you could still use iron skin the way it's used now, but it'd be more of a "switch movility for resistance/proc protection" thing.

 

the idea behind giving it the "reactive bonus", was to well, give a bonus for more thought out actions over simply casting IS as soon as you can.

 

and lastly (and the 3'd reason for not putting the threat level increase in roar), iron skin DOES help the rest of the team, i DID give it a threat level increase, while invul it's so high it out-threats everything, once the invul is gone it remains high enough for rhino to still be the primary tenno target, but low enough so things like decoy, molt, and chaos can divert attention from rhino, but he'd still be the priority target among the tenno squad (and preferably still the priority target even counting rescue targets and the like).

 

basically, it's not roar doing the "LOOK AT ME SHOOT AT ME" thing, it's iron skin, why? well 'cus iron skin lets rhino take more dmg, hence making him a better decoy.

 

@TheONiStixx.

 

the thing with stomp is really only 'cus of fleeting expertise abuse, and frankly i think that's a problem in banshee too, and you have to consider that A) banshee uses energy over time, so if she really was too keep everything stunlocked for 40 seconds she'd have to waste nearly all her energy, unlike rhino who only needs 25 energy per cast, and B) sound quake's range is considerably shorter than stomp's.

 

also, you have to consider both banshee and nova (specially nova) are way WAY frailer than rhino, it's one thing to be able to stunlock/slowdown enemies like mad when otherwise you'd die ultrafast, and another thing is to be able to do so while also being able to take massive amounths of dmg, like a tank(aka rhino) should be able to.

DR also affects shields

 

Thats alot to take into consideration when calculating effective HP

 

For Trinity itrs what pushes her so far ahead of Valkyr on top of her ability to heal

 

IS and take some damage then stomp or just IS and wait for it to break to recast

 

Its not hard to see an infinite cycle of rhino not being able to die at all

 

There arent enough negatives to reactive health

 

They dont solve the whole OP under a certain level thing

 

Its kind of broken to have a direct self scaling mobile health bar as well

 

Itd be like frost globe if it could move but didnt take damage from even the most inaccurate shots that come in its direction

 

And then with CC  immunity on top of that

Edited November 11, 2014 by Azawarau

[phazefox]

@azawarau, yhea i forgot shields that's true, but armor still makes health get more out of DR.

 

reagarding trinity, she's supposed to be the healer/dmg mitigator, if she didn't outclass valkyr in keeping both herself and the rest of the team alive, then something would be very wrong.

 

the "IS, wait, then stomp" and "IS, wait for it to break, then recast", thing does have a few ways to be prevented.

 

A) the dmg rhino DOES take "kills" him, thus IS breaks and rhino gets stunned, also having very little health due to him only avoiding the last hit (shields wouldn't help much as they'd either have been depleted long before or would take the hit instead of rhino's health), i can see various cases were rhino would get killed while stunned, or get stunlocked due to the initial stun. (most likelly scenario)

 

B) rhino is killed by overdmg, which would be more likelly now as he'd already be taking dmg while iron skin is on.

 

C) a toxin proc kills rhino.

 

also, i must point out rhino wouldn't be inmune to CC anymore, only to being knockeddown/stunned/pushed, anything else would still affect him one way or another, things like accuracy debuffs, radiation procs, magnetic procs, and anything that slows him down (except for cold procs, which to my knowledge no enemy deals anyways), would still affect him like they would otherwise, in fact, his only inmunities (besides knockdown/stun/physical pushing) are:

 

puncture proc, slash proc, cold proc, and viral proc; of which only cold proc is real CC. (you can count impact proc if you want as it's a stun, but blast proc, while it wouldn't knock rhino down, would still trigger it's AoE knockdown, thus affecting anyone near enough to rhino, same for any other proc that causes stun/knockdown, all other effects would still apply, with some of them hitting IS instead of rhino though)

 

i guess i should remove the cold proc inmunity though, for two reasons, A) it really might be too much, B) it doesn't make sense for him to be inmune to it if cold eximus auras/snowglobes still slow him down)

Edited November 11, 2014 by phazefox

[Azawarau]

@azawarau, yhea i forgot shields that's true, but armor still makes health get more out of DR.

 

reagarding trinity, she's supposed to be the healer/dmg mitigator, if she didn't outclass valkyr in keeping both herself and the rest of the team alive, then something would be very wrong.

 

the "IS, wait, then stomp" and "IS, wait for it to break, then recast", thing does have a few ways to be prevented.

 

A) the dmg rhino DOES take "kills" him, thus IS breaks and rhino gets stunned, also having very little health due to him only avoiding the last hit (shields wouldn't help much as they'd either have been depleted long before or would take the hit instead of rhino's health), i can see various cases were rhino would get killed while stunned, or get stunlocked due to the initial stun. (most likelly scenario)

 

B) rhino is killed by overdmg, which would be more likelly now as he'd already be taking dmg while iron skin is on.

 

C) a toxin proc kills rhino.

 

also, i must point out rhino wouldn't be inmune to CC anymore, only to being knockeddown/stunned/pushed, anything else would still affect him one way or another, things like accuracy debuffs, radiation procs, magnetic procs, and anything that slows him down (except for cold procs, which to my knowledge no enemy deals anyways), would still affect him like they would otherwise, in fact, his only inmunities (besides knockdown/stun/physical pushing) are:

 

puncture proc, slash proc, cold proc, and viral proc; of which only cold proc is real CC. (you can count impact proc if you want as it's a stun, but blast proc, while it wouldn't knock rhino down, would still trigger it's AoE knockdown, thus affecting anyone near enough to rhino, same for any other proc that causes stun/knockdown, all other effects would still apply, with some of them hitting IS instead of rhino though)

 

i guess i should remove the cold proc inmunity though, for two reasons, A) it really might be too much, B) it doesn't make sense for him to be inmune to it if cold eximus auras/snowglobes still slow him down)

The issue is trinity is too good at it

 

Valkyrs only real advantage against her is Warcry attack speed buff

 

Rhino is also ages behind in terms of defense despite her being just the healer frame

 

I know how tough it is to be a healer <Literally near always the healer or jack of all trades in every game but in this case the healers defensive ability passing the 3 next best tanks by far seems a bit off

 

You want to add a stun effect every time IS breaks? Isnt that way too heavy a penalty?

[phazefox]

You want to add a stun effect every time IS breaks? Isnt that way too heavy a penalty?

 

 

not every time, only if it is due to "collateral damage" (aka the damage rhino takes while iron skin is still on), if iron skin is killed off before rhino "dies", there's no stun, and the stun (which is pretty much just an impact proc) is there 'cus it'd be a "you're getting this along with IS auto-breaking because said IS just prevented you from dying when you should have".

 

it doesn't seem that bad to me. for further information on "collateral damage" please refer to the original (and now heavily edited) post

Edited November 12, 2014 by phazefox

[Azawarau]

I see

 

Still not on board with this idea

[DrBorris]

I Like the Rhino Charge ideas, makes Rhino seem... beefier.

 

As for Roar, even though I would LOVE +75% damage, I think that it should remain +50 percent but also give a 25% damage reduction to shields for allies. I was thinking an armor buff, but then I remembered that Valkyr (and sort of Oberon) already have that.

 

While Stomp is almost perfect, it needs to be effected by duration mods... that is it. It would allow people to specialize in either damage spamming or allow players to specialize it for some hefty CC.

 

A for Iron Skin, it seems like some good changes (albeit a bit complicated).

[Azawarau]

On an unrelated note

 

I just got why you called it hot fox instead of hot fix

[phazefox]

@asawarau

 

actually, i hadn't thought of "hot fix" when i made the title, it was supposed to be a pun on "hot skitty on wailord action", which is a meme of sorts coming from the fact that you actually CAN cross-breed a skitty with a wailord in the pokemon games (the resulting pokemon's species is the same as the female or the pair).

 

now regarding the current state of my ideas for IS, i think i'll try to make a TLDR, so basically:

 

rhino gets a 0/1/2/3 second invulnerability on cast(unmoddable, can't sprint use weapons or abilities during it, save for roar)) to soak up dmg, all soaked up dmg turns into "reactive health" for IS, (base health is "preventive health")

 

rhino always takes part of incoming dmg while IS is active, while using "reactive health" he simply takes a % of it, when using "preventive health" he takes a gradually increasing part of it directly to his health as finisher dmg.

 

while IS is active rhino has an increased threat level, making him a priority target for enemies, and gets 10% movement speed debuff

 

rhino is not inmune to all status effects/procs, however, most will hit IS instead of his shields/health and he won't be affected by knockdown/stun/push, nor slash/puncture/viral proc, toxin proc still hits him directly, all other procs affect rhino (though ignoring any stun/knockdown/pushback they might cause), and dmg IS instead of rhino's shields/health.

 

odd dmg interaction, magnetic dmg goes 50% to IS and 50% to shields (any dmg the shields can't take goes to IS, not rhino's health)

 

if rhino was to die due to due to the dmg he takes while IS is up (excluding toxin procs) instead Is would break and he'd get a small stagger (think impact proc)

 

...now that i think about it with all that considered the stagger might be overkill, i mean he's already loosing the IS before it's run out of health, and recasting it on the spot wouldn't help unless he gets healed somehow; any opinions on that?

 

@DrBorris

 

just a bit complicated?, i'm pretty darn sure it is VERY complicated; i mean just look at that TLDR i just wrote, it's huge! (well for a TLDR), and yes it's just for IS

Edited November 12, 2014 by phazefox