The Real Problem With Syndicates Is Basing Rep Off Plain Xp. A Proposal For An Alternative System.

[BrazilianJoe]

Viver is a symptom, not a problem. 

 

One major complaint about Syndicates is that the grind is too long, and I rally behind this complaint.

 

Also, veteran players are being completely hosed by getting nothing for their past efforts. I don't mean we should just get the mods, but we should have at least a partial boost to progress based on past gameplay.

 

The most critical shortcoming is that basing syndicate reputation solely off XP is oversimplified and does not reward the player for playing the game. Instead he is solely rewarded for hoarding XP, which naturally leads players to get to the most effective place for that. 

 

Changing it all

 

Which alternative system for syndicate reputation may work? 

 

Objective: rewarding players for playing everywhere, without having a grindfest in specific maps. 

 

Proposed system: mission counter rewards

 

Instead of hundreds of thousands of points, initial reputation levels would be in the tens of points, and later levels in the hundreds. Same goes for syndicate rewards.

 

Proposed scale: 

 

Rank 5: 400

Rank 4: 250

Rank 3: 150

Rank 2: 80

Rank 1: 25

Rank 0: 0

Rank -1: -25

Rank -2: -80

(caps at -150)

 

Rewards would scale cost cost up to 250 reputation points. 

 

 

UPDATE: Added conclave scaling here too to make missions of all levels playable scaling to power envelope.

Each mission success would reward one reputation point IF:

 

Players conclave rating is 40 * (average enemy level).

 

. if the player falls intOn infinite missions, each reward tier achieved rewards one reputation point. This will grant similar rewards for playtime, regardless of playing a succession of single objective missions or an single infinite mission.

 

Advantages: Privileges all mission types with reasonable reward levels instead of 'pick up the highest XP per minute' mission. 

 

Disadvantages: Has a bias toward rushing. This is an issue with the mission mechanics which privilege rushing, moreso than the syndicate system in itself. Even so, the rushing wouldn't be able to speed it up too much. It can be considered a minor issue, and depends on changing the structure of these missions to be fixed, which can be done later. 

 

 

I will propose changes to the most rushable missions and link here later. UPDATE:

 

Rush love-hate embraced as a valid strategy, enabled where it was impossible and limited where it was exploitable:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/343630-rushing-not-all-bad-lets-embrace-and-limit-it/

 

Doubling your rep reward

 

The player would be able to try to double his rep reward. To perform that, the player would have to fulfill the following conditions: 

 

The max. conclave rating of the player would have to be 20 * (average enemy level) (half of the plain reward).

If the player is using a frame which is favored by the syndicate, max. conclave rating gets a 15% bonus.

The syndicate mods (weapon and warframe) will NOT count towards the conclave rating for this purpose only.

Each owned sigil gives the player a 10-point bonus to conclave rating cap.

The player would have to be using at least one weapon which is favored by that syndicate. 

The weapon(s) with the highest conclave rating must be the weapons favored by the syndicate the player is using. Weapon syndicate mods DO count towards weapon conclave rating for this purpose.

 

If and only if all these conditions are met, player gets double rep. 

Edited November 11, 2014 by BrazilianJoe

[Somedude1000]

I liek your poitns mate, and can especially reelate to not getting anythign from syndicates for allt he time thats ebene invested into the game so far keep up the good work :D

[paul62626]

i like this point system over the current system, i could see this being what it becomes. however i think they want syndicates to be long term, so the scalling would prob still be pretty high up. because with your system (if i calculated correctly) you could finish everything with under 400 missions or just above that. 400 missions is pretty easy to grind away if you tried, stuff like doing missions on mercury solo.

maybe instead of having each mission worth 1 point, have it scaled and let us get half a point. maybe even make it so it doesnt scale linearly. but rather exponentially. this would reward players more on the higher level planets rather than letting everyone rush mercury for all thier points.

 

This idea spreads the players back into any mission, not just xp grinds. and this is the part i like. because honestly i would like to be able to jump in a mission with a squad playing. and right now most seem to want to grind for XP 

Edited November 11, 2014 by paul62626

[victor_victory]

Heres my suggestion, remove reputation point and Syndicate mission. Add a favorable syndicate to every mission on the star chart. and it will change every time you finish it. Also the more mission variety you do the faster your reputation rise. Then change that kill count will not affect reputation gain.

Next add more benefits if you have the highest reputation on one of the syndicate, for example a daily reward from the syndicate or a special daily mission that will provide a good amount of rewards(mods,credit etc).

Finally, you will use credits to buy syndicate item rather than reputation point so there will be one less thing to grind.

[Hybridon]

Id just change it so that endless missions award more according to time/waves spent in them, maybe even some form of scalability. That would enter the lack of risk-reward that warframe has.

So you can do lets say 400 capture missions, and get 400 points, or you can endure longer on endless missions, have a higher risk, but earn more points accordingly.

For example, you can go 1 round on Interception, and get 0.5 points, if you complete a full 4 round, that would be 2 points. Now the next 4 rounds is 0.75 each, then another 4 rounds is 1 point each, meaning that if you reach 12 rounds you get more points, and you are fighting higher leveled enemies, so theres risk-reward involved, yet if you fail, you lose everything.

 

Warframe needs more of that, so that lower leveled players can achieve the goals as they try to get better, and veteran players can actually have some sort of endgame according to the high level gear. We have no reason to use high level gear, cause we arent rewarded towards going higher appropriately, we actually in a general consensus get more reosurces if we play enldess missions up to 10-15 waves, or 15 mins, cause you get more money leaving early and replaying, you get the same reosurces, around the same XP and the difficulty is consistent.

[Shifted]

I agree with your statement (Syndicate xp needs to be reworked) but not with your solutions.

 

You're just pushing it to the other extreme. instead of farming, it's rushing.

 

I think all we need is just more ways (other than enemy kills) to boost our rep gain. 

[Kruglov]

I actually suggested similar in another thread!

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

It'd be nice for DE to find ways to get people playing everywhere in the Star Map.

 

I do believe giving a rep reward BONUS for doing invasions and alerts would also do a world of good of keeping people playing on other planets, too.

[Dekoser]

Heres my suggestion, remove reputation point and Syndicate mission. Add a favorable syndicate to every mission on the star chart. and it will change every time you finish it. Also the more mission variety you do the faster your reputation rise. Then change that kill count will not affect reputation gain.

Next add more benefits if you have the highest reputation on one of the syndicate, for example a daily reward from the syndicate or a special daily mission that will provide a good amount of rewards(mods,credit etc).

Finally, you will use credits to buy syndicate item rather than reputation point so there will be one less thing to grind.

and if it is not a extra mission but rather the normal one the nodes are not abandoned anymore ... sadly rushers will allways stay rushers ...

but still a solid solving

[Dekoser]

Id just change it so that endless missions award more according to time/waves spent in them, maybe even some form of scalability. That would enter the lack of risk-reward that warframe has.

So you can do lets say 400 capture missions, and get 400 points, or you can endure longer on endless missions, have a higher risk, but earn more points accordingly.

For example, you can go 1 round on Interception, and get 0.5 points, if you complete a full 4 round, that would be 2 points. Now the next 4 rounds is 0.75 each, then another 4 rounds is 1 point each, meaning that if you reach 12 rounds you get more points, and you are fighting higher leveled enemies, so theres risk-reward involved, yet if you fail, you lose everything.

 

Warframe needs more of that, so that lower leveled players can achieve the goals as they try to get better, and veteran players can actually have some sort of endgame according to the high level gear. We have no reason to use high level gear, cause we arent rewarded towards going higher appropriately, we actually in a general consensus get more reosurces if we play enldess missions up to 10-15 waves, or 15 mins, cause you get more money leaving early and replaying, you get the same reosurces, around the same XP and the difficulty is consistent.

arent defences, survivals, interceptions,excavations not allready rewarding enough ?

exp, keys mods,ress

why not give cpas, extermis,sabos, spays, deceptions, something what make them atleast a bit more appealing ?

the whole missiontype-reward-things is so ... so ... can say its but its a really mess xD and i dont think it can solved easily...

[InvaderMEEN]

This system sounds like the Gradvius Dilemma all over again.

[Tsukinoki]

Instead of farming viver or whatever that grants the most xp, suddenly it becomes "Lets rush the shortest exterminate/capture missions as fast as possible with max rush lokis!"  which would also be the lowest level, eg Mercury or Earth, and there isn't much that you can do to make them less spammable without ruining it for new players.

Not a whole lot different, except that its now far more boring and less challenging for everyone involved.  There would be no point in doing high level missions at all when your getting 2 points if you fit into all the rules for the doubling, when in the same time it took you to run that single mission you could have ran 4 or 5 missions on Mercury.

Also infinite missions wouldn't be worth doing under your system.
I could take 8 minutes and run 3, maybe 4, waves of a low level interception OR I could run 5 to 7 capture missions and get more rep.  So your point that it would give comparable awards per time spent in endless missions compared to non-endless missions just isn't true.

So in short I have to disagree with your idea.
All it would do is honestly make the reputation even more of a grind because right now I can run high level content and void and get decent rep compared to running Mercury.  With your proposed idea it would be a stupid idea to go to the void and aim to get rep because of how much longer it would take you to finish the missions and how you get the same rep at the end now as you would from running E. Prime.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Hybridon]

arent defences, survivals, interceptions,excavations not allready rewarding enough ?

exp, keys mods,ress

why not give cpas, extermis,sabos, spays, deceptions, something what make them atleast a bit more appealing ?

the whole missiontype-reward-things is so ... so ... can say its but its a really mess xD and i dont think it can solved easily...

 

All of them do not have scaling rewards to risk. For example, if you go on interception, you can get a natural talent (rare mod) on the first round or round 10, you can get ammo drum on round 1, or go up to round 20 and get it again.

Risk-reward is terrible in Warframe.

And as i said, quicker missions should have a consistent rep gain, so that its an alternative, while going on riskier missions nets you higher rep, cause you are risking yourself more.

 

Warframe in general lacks risk-reward.

Survival, if you go on a T4, its better to go twice, up to 20 minutes, cause you get the same rewards, with less risk, and double the credits income, than if you go to 40, where the scaling difficulty does not give you better chances at rarer resources/mods/prizes, and you get the same amount of credits as a 20 minute run.

[BrazilianJoe]

Updated post linking to another post with proposals to adjust mission mechanics to counterbalance rushing, while keeping it as a valid strategy.

 

Also added conclave limit to plain rewards, so that the player would have to scale its gear's conclave rating to get full/double rewards.

Edited November 11, 2014 by BrazilianJoe

[postlogue]

It's a valid and innovative idea, but it does need refining in some places. I think the biggest problem that I have with your new system is the fact that we think a new system is necessary. Currently, the rewards are supposed to be a very end-game type deal, where as you play the rest of the game, you gain rep points over time, so when you eventually have accumulated enough points, you can go buy a reward from the syndicate. The system was never meant to be a rush-and-get-all-the-rewards-in-two-weeks goal, it was supposed to be a fun side addition to level up in as you played the game.

[BrazilianJoe]

It's a valid and innovative idea, but it does need refining in some places. I think the biggest problem that I have with your new system is the fact that we think a new system is necessary. Currently, the rewards are supposed to be a very end-game type deal, where as you play the rest of the game, you gain rep points over time, so when you eventually have accumulated enough points, you can go buy a reward from the syndicate. The system was never meant to be a rush-and-get-all-the-rewards-in-two-weeks goal, it was supposed to be a fun side addition to level up in as you played the game.

 

 

I am completely aware of the intent behind the Syndicate system. The is a problem in the way it was designed, because it privileges a specific type of gameplay, to the detriment of all other mission types. Even if Viver is nerfed into the ground or even removed from game, the game will still be split with very few missions preferred to the detriment of the rest of the game: High Level infinite missions. 

 

 

(if we just ignore Viver or consider it nerfed-removed) The cleaver which still chops of the game into a 90-10 proportion (for syndicate gameplay) and throws away the 90% is precisely the fact that syndicate rep is based on XP.

[Tsukinoki]

@BrazilianJoe
Even with the changes you made I am still against your idea.
And the reason is that if you are trying to farm for rep it makes harder missions counter-productive.
Why spend some time in the void when I could get the lowest conclave possible with a single gun, no companions, and the bare minimum mods and run a lower level capture mission much faster and much easier for the same exact reward?

As for your linked thread, not a fan.  Especially things like the hive sabotage that would make it near impossible to run solo...And even with those ideas a deception would still be either ridiculously fast for even a half modded Loki or so sloggish it wouldn't be worth to do even for fun depending on how many enemies and where they spawn.  And none of the spy mechanics would even touch a Loki.

Why spend 5 minutes in a survival mission for ONE reputation point when I could spend those 5 minutes running 3 to 5(or more depending on map size) capture/deception/spy and get 3 to 5 reputation points?
Makes running survival completely pointless for reputation gains.
As well as defense, interception, assassination, exterminate, or excavation...

It would basically force people to run Spy/Capture/Deception if they want any sort of acceptable reputation gain at that point.  And only the lowest level that would give them any reputation gains.  Afterall, high level missions only give you more problems with absolutely no benefit while a level of enemy that would barely give you your reputation points wouldn't even stand a chance of slowing you down.

There needs to be *something* that rewards players running higher level missions.
And your idea completely lacks it.
Sure they could get 2 whole points from running a node on Ceres, but in that same time (and without any risk of dying or anything else) I could run 2 lower level missions for the same exact gain.

It just seems a whole lot grindier, more annoying, and far more boring system then what we have now.
At least with the current system doing an endless mission at high levels *does* reward you more reputation per minute then running a low level deception will.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[BrazilianJoe]

@BrazilianJoe

Even with the changes you made I am still against your idea.

And the reason is that if you are trying to farm for rep it makes harder missions counter-productive.

Why spend some time in the void when I could get the lowest conclave possible with a single gun, no companions, and the bare minimum mods and run a lower level capture mission much faster and much easier for the same exact reward?

As for your linked thread, not a fan.  Especially things like the hive sabotage that would make it near impossible to run solo...And even with those ideas a deception would still be either ridiculously fast for even a half modded Loki or so sloggish it wouldn't be worth to do even for fun depending on how many enemies and where they spawn.  And none of the spy mechanics would even touch a Loki.

Why spend 5 minutes in a survival mission for ONE reputation point when I could spend those 5 minutes running 3 to 5(or more depending on map size) capture/deception/spy and get 3 to 5 reputation points?

Makes running survival completely pointless for reputation gains.

As well as defense, interception, assassination, exterminate, or excavation...

It would basically force people to run Spy/Capture/Deception if they want any sort of acceptable reputation gain at that point.  And only the lowest level that would give them any reputation gains.  Afterall, high level missions only give you more problems with absolutely no benefit while a level of enemy that would barely give you your reputation points wouldn't even stand a chance of slowing you down.

There needs to be *something* that rewards players running higher level missions.

And your idea completely lacks it.

Sure they could get 2 whole points from running a node on Ceres, but in that same time (and without any risk of dying or anything else) I could run 2 lower level missions for the same exact gain.

It just seems a whole lot grindier, more annoying, and far more boring system then what we have now.

At least with the current system doing an endless mission at high levels *does* reward you more reputation per minute then running a low level deception will.

 

 

Higher level mission already have their rewards: XP and drop items, etc. 

 

The purpose of this model for syndicate rewards is to have all missions provide a roughly equal reputation reward, so that the player's choice of mission/difficulty plays no part. 

 

Rushing can be a problem, and my linked thread applies speed bumps to the most rushable mission types while also providing ways to hasten the non-rushable missions, within limits. Rushing is a separate problem altogether, and must be dealt separately and regardless of syndicate rewards, that's why it's in another thread. Naturally an and all rushing balance solutions have to take into account solo players, but none of the changes I proposed make it inviable. The solo unfriendly missions already exist by themselves, interception and derelict vaults being the most infamous, but they are not the subject of this thread. 

 

My point is that a syndicate reputation reward system which does not privilege high-level missions or infinite missions is preferable precisely because it frees the player to go into ANY mission which pleases him and still get the reputation reward. 

[Kruglov]

Higher level mission already have their rewards: XP and drop items, etc. 

 

 

 

Rushing can be a problem, and my linked thread applies speed bumps to the most rushable mission types while also providing ways to hasten the non-rushable missions, within limits. Rushing is a separate problem altogethe

 

Very well said.

[TinFoilMkIV]

...

Also, veteran players are being completely hosed by getting nothing for their past efforts. I don't mean we should just get the mods, but we should have at least a partial boost to progress based on past gameplay.

 

The most critical shortcoming is that basing syndicate reputation solely off XP is oversimplified and does not reward the player for playing the game. Instead he is solely rewarded for hoarding XP, which naturally leads players to get to the most effective place for that. 

 

Changing it all

 

Which alternative system for syndicate reputation may work? 

 

Objective: rewarding players for playing everywhere, without having a grindfest in specific maps. 

 

Proposed system: mission counter rewards

 

Instead of hundreds of thousands of points, initial reputation levels would be in the tens of points, and later levels in the hundreds. Same goes for syndicate rewards.

 

...

 

Players conclave rating is 40 * (average enemy level).

 

. if the player falls intOn infinite missions, each reward tier achieved rewards one reputation point. This will grant similar rewards for playtime, regardless of playing a succession of single objective missions or an single infinite mission.

 

Advantages: Privileges all mission types with reasonable reward levels instead of 'pick up the highest XP per minute' mission. 

 

Disadvantages: Has a bias toward rushing. This is an issue with the mission mechanics which privilege rushing, moreso than the syndicate system in itself. Even so, the rushing wouldn't be able to speed it up too much. It can be considered a minor issue, and depends on changing the structure of these missions to be fixed, which can be done later. 

 

...

 

Doubling your rep reward

 

The player would be able to try to double his rep reward. To perform that, the player would have to fulfill the following conditions: 

 

The max. conclave rating of the player would have to be 20 * (average enemy level) (half of the plain reward).

If the player is using a frame which is favored by the syndicate, max. conclave rating gets a 15% bonus.

The syndicate mods (weapon and warframe) will NOT count towards the conclave rating for this purpose only.

Each owned sigil gives the player a 10-point bonus to conclave rating cap.

The player would have to be using at least one weapon which is favored by that syndicate. 

The weapon(s) with the highest conclave rating must be the weapons favored by the syndicate the player is using. Weapon syndicate mods DO count towards weapon conclave rating for this purpose.

 

If and only if all these conditions are met, player gets double rep. 

I disagree with the comment about veteran players getting shortchanged. It's the same when any new system/content is released, we shouldn't be handing out shortcuts to the higher end players, they already do have an edge in that they have the tools and access to various parts of the game that benefit their progress that others do not. I know it can be a pain to have to start at the beginning when you're far enough into the game to be at least near the end of a system/whatever, but we do have our advantages and I don't see a better answer for now.

 

As for the problem being the exp to rep conversion, I completely agree.

 

I have mixed feelings on conclave restrictions in missions. On one hand its the only player controlled power limiting rating system we have currently, but on the other it's terribly flawed in it's use as a power rating. For example, I am not physically capable of participating in the lowest conclave bracket because even with no mods my rank 30 warframes put me over the limit with any single weapon. Yet in the next tier I can go in with moderate durability and a single gun capable of practially vaporizing any fully equipped warframe in that bracket. If we're going to run on a rating system for content we need a way to scale down ranked frames and gear, so they either behave at reduced functionality, or we can only mod them out as if they were lower ranked.

 

The double rep challenge/requirements is an interesting idea, but I would be careful about giving too many bonuses towards favored frames or mission types, as it can end up feeling like you're being railroaded into a playstyle you don't like, or being forced to give up on your favorite faction to be able to get good returns on playing what you like. Weapons on the other hand I think there's more room to work with as there's enough room for variety and overlapping similarities that it could be made to work.

 

Overall the idea to have a system basing gains on playing appropriately leveled missions is a good idea, however...

I agree with your statement (Syndicate xp needs to be reworked) but not with your solutions.

 

You're just pushing it to the other extreme. instead of farming, it's rushing.

 

I think all we need is just more ways (other than enemy kills) to boost our rep gain. 

I'm more in this area myself. I like the idea but not as a replacement to the current system. What we need is more ways to gain rep, not just replacing one basic system with another that still has a single favored style. The rushing issue is something I think the affinty to rep system actually handles decently as it at least promotes wiping out the enemy forces on your speed run to the objective, as opposed to minimum contact play.

 

I'd like to see something based on this mission completion idea added to the current rep gains system, so that we gain rep based on affinity as well as mission completion. I think it's fine that we have a basic system that rewards players that like to go out and just kill everything. What's not fine is that being the only answer to gaining decent rep,materials,drops,mods,etc...

 

The rep system doesn't need to be replaced, it needs to be expanded to have systems that reward different types of play. It's okay for one type to be the easies/most efficient/claimed best, as long as the others can at least compete. Right now we have power level tier affinity farming at about 20 laps ahead of everything else.

 

There's another thread with some pretty good discussion on this sort of thing if anyone cares to brave some rather lengthy walls of text https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/