I Think Los Is Good. It Need A Small "addition" Though So It Can Be Actually Viable

[Kinnypuffs]

Well seeing as Excalibur has the ability to summon magical skanas out of nowhere behind enemies and impale them to walls I'm not really suprised that he can sense enemy locations without actually seeing them.

They're space ninjas, I think seeing your enemy before they can see you is part of the job description.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Not quite-- There are a number of warframes that can accomplish this, and they don't even have to do damage to nullify the enemy to the point where them having an AI matters. The point still stands that it's incredibly hard for DE to design smart enemies when said enemies don't have a chance to position and mobilize through all of our wide area abilities. Enemies have no semblance of an answer for Miasma, Stomp, Chaos, Radial Disarm, Polarize, Slow-Prime, Bladestorm, Prism-Blind, etc.

 

Me saying "44444444" was more of blanket statement for any ability that basically stupefies enemies through walls, and makes them unable to retaliate and thus provide any form of challenge. There's simply no point in enemies taking cover or strategically taking positions in the next room to ambush us. We can just Chaos, Miasma, Stomp, etc. our way through their well-thought out ploy. The only way they can retaliate is how DE designs 'challenge' all too often. To pump enemy levels to the point where they're bland bullet sponges.

 

Again, I'm not saying this should only be applied to us, but to enemies as well. Although this game is not a cover shooter, I still believe that adding an element of positioning to WF as a whole would give its combat some more depth. I think we can all agree that it is no fun when our energy gets sapped away for no reason at 40m through walls (cough Cold Revenge).

 

I also understand that what I have to say is not what most of the community wants. A lot of people like being able to relieve stress by vaporizing enemies that look at them funny (bad example... since they don't have a chance to look at us when we vaporize them). I'm totally cool with that. I understand that feeling-- I'm just giving my perspective on the matter because I feel that the "It's more realistic!" argument is a weak one.

 

Sure they do.

Miasma- Ranged combat.

Stomp- Ranged combat/being higher than level 30/not all spawning at the same time (stomp can't be spammed unless it is OHK'ing all the enemies).

Chaos- Same as above sans the level 30 thing.

Radial Disarm- Being a melee enemy/being above level 30 (getting disarmed doesn't change the fact that they hit f'ing hard).

Shield Polarize- Not having shields.

Molecular Prime- I'll give you this one, the slow is not countered as of right now.

Bladestorm- It has a target limit, and only protects Ash. He also respawns back where he was previously, which greatly enhances the chances of him getting killed when bladestorm ends.

Prism- I'll also give you this one, as Prism is basically old radial blind except better. Although the lengthy cast time can result in your death. I also happen to think that a LoS on the blind that prism provides would make sense and would be consistent with the LoS requirement on radial blind.

 

That only becomes an issue when the energy drain is compensated for. Take a Trinity (or constant energy restores) out of the equation and that becomes a non-issue.

 

I don't know, I've seen some people who thought cold revenge provided a nice challenge. I didn't like it, but I only noticed because a teammate pointed it out.

 

A potential solution would be to change fleeting expertise's downside to a range nerf (or make it both a range and a duration nerf). That would prevent players from creating ultra cheap long ranged builds without sacrificing damage (overextended). It would empower abilities like rift walk and invisibility, and DE would have to decide which they think is the least balanced (cheap long range nukes or cheap long duration non-range dependent abilities).

[Dreadnaux]

If you want realism there's plenty of simulation games out there. If they tried to go for realism do you realize just "how" bad this game would be? Every time someone picked ember all the oxygen on the ship would burn up instantly. Causing everyone to die or possibly explode the ship or even get jettisoned out into space.

 

 

It's better just to leave the AoE abilities without LoS checks, easier to balance that way as well.

[HolidayPi3]

Sure they do.

Miasma- Ranged combat.

Stomp- Ranged combat/being higher than level 30/not all spawning at the same time (stomp can't be spammed unless it is OHK'ing all the enemies).

Chaos- Same as above sans the level 30 thing.

Radial Disarm- Being a melee enemy/being above level 30 (getting disarmed doesn't change the fact that they hit f'ing hard).

Shield Polarize- Not having shields.

Molecular Prime- I'll give you this one, the slow is not countered as of right now.

Bladestorm- It has a target limit, and only protects Ash. He also respawns back where he was previously, which greatly enhances the chances of him getting killed when bladestorm ends.

Prism- I'll also give you this one, as Prism is basically old radial blind except better. Although the lengthy cast time can result in your death. I also happen to think that a LoS on the blind that prism provides would make sense and would be consistent with the LoS requirement on radial blind.

 

 

I'd rather not get into the specifics of these, since we'd be trading points all year, but I'll bite.

I don't think ranged combat counts as a counter. They can't initiate in ranged combat since these things happen through walls. And they do. In fact I used Miasma as an example because I did 54 T4 Exts straight for a Bo Prime Handle with Saryn (about 2-3 minutes per run) and literally went from doorway to doorway nuking whole / half of rooms from the cover of each corner. Ranged combat wouldn't have done anything against this.

 

Stomp isn't countered by ranged combat either given you mod it for the CC portion of it. It even pops enemies out of any sort of strategic cover as they get launched into the air and then locked. Again, run to the entrance of a room, Stomp, run in, shoot the place up, repeat if needed. No risk involved.

 

Chaos has a massive range, and enemies not affected by Chaos and still fight enemies affected by Chaos. Plus most people mod it for -duration so it's spammable for instances like this.

 

I won't go into shield polarize as you said yourself it was an exception.

 

Bladestorm-- there's really nothing enemies can do to stop Ash from eviscerating them. I will give you that point about it having a target limit, however.

 

 

I don't know, I've seen some people who thought cold revenge provided a nice challenge. I didn't like it, but I only noticed because a teammate pointed it out.

 

A potential solution would be to change fleeting expertise's downside to a range nerf (or make it both a range and a duration nerf). That would prevent players from creating ultra cheap long ranged builds without sacrificing damage (overextended). It would empower abilities like rift walk and invisibility, and DE would have to decide which they think is the least balanced (cheap long range nukes or cheap long duration non-range dependent abilities).

 

Cold Revenge was a challenge, but IMO not a fun challenge. Having solo'd it with a shottie, I got to experience all the frustration. Another topic for another day though. Being affected by enemy abilities without LoS is not limited to Cold Revenge, however.

Edited November 18, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[SquirmyBurrito]

I'd rather not get into the specifics of these, since we'd be trading points all year, but I'll bite.

I don't think ranged combat counts as a counter. They can't initiate in ranged combat since these things happen through walls. And they do. In fact I used Miasma as an example because I did 54 T4 Exts straight for a Bo Prime Handle with Saryn (about 2-3 minutes per run) and literally went from doorway to doorway nuking whole / half of rooms from the cover of each corner. Ranged combat wouldn't have done anything against this.

 

Stomp isn't countered by ranged combat either given you mod it for the CC portion of it. It even pops enemies out of any sort of strategic cover as they get launched into the air and then locked. Again, run to the entrance of a room, Stomp, run in, shoot the place up, repeat if needed. No risk involved.

 

Chaos has a massive range, and enemies not affected by Chaos and still fight enemies affected by Chaos. Plus most people mod it for -duration so it's spammable for instances like this.

 

I won't go into shield polarize as you said yourself it was an exception.

 

Bladestorm-- there's really nothing enemies can do to stop Ash from eviscerating them. I will give you that point about it having a target limit, however.

 

 

Cold Revenge was a challenge, but IMO not a fun challenge. Having solo'd it with a shottie, I got to experience all the frustration. Another topic for another day though. Being affected by enemy abilities without LoS is not limited to Cold Revenge, however.

 

Miasma has pretty short range for an ult.

 

Stomp does poor damage and the duration is not affected by duration mods. So if you modded it for max range you'd be forced to go and kill every enemy or wait for it to end before you could re-cast it. Any enemies that spawn after you cast are free to shoot you all they want.

 

Enemies can also shoot at you while under the affects of Chaos.

 

It is true that they can't stop you from casting, but they can kill you in between casts. Now that bladestorm is faster you're left with far less time to regen shields. 

 

I didn't like cold revenge and I couldn't get into a mission without lagging to hell. So I didn't bother running it. It isn't giving out any reward that I either don't have or care for (I'm never going to wear the badge as that shoulder is reserved for my disciple badge).

[HolidayPi3]

@Burrito

At this point you're just listing possible shortcomings for these abilities. We can go on for centuries and not get anywhere as long as you believe that because an ability has some minor drawback that can be negated with mods, that it is balanced for being able to travel through walls and maintain full effectiveness in separate rooms.
 

Miasma has pretty short range for an ult.

 

This doesn't discount the fact that I was able to clear 54 T4 exterminates without ever placing myself at risk. Also, if its range is so short, then it shouldn't be able to effectively clear rooms from behind doorways right? Well... it can. Very effectively. This is part of the reason why people were using Saryn for their 15.2 Vivers (however short lived that time period was). Also the reason I use Saryn for all of my speed clearing.

 

 

Stomp does poor damage and the duration is not affected by duration mods. So if you modded it for max range you'd be forced to go and kill every enemy or wait for it to end before you could re-cast it. Any enemies that spawn after you cast are free to shoot you all they want.

 

 

Poor damage is irrelevant as I'm talking about the CC aspect of it. It turns rooms into literal shooting galleries, and you're never forced to put yourself at risk to make it happen. Enemies being able to spawn in between casts is really not enough of a weakness to warrant this ability going through walls.

 

 

Enemies can also shoot at you while under the affects of Chaos.

 

 

They can, but the Nyx would have to be really, really not paying attention to be in harm's way while Chaos is active. Being a Nyx main that's been through many hairy T4 defense runs, I can safely say that Chaos being active pretty much gives you free reign. It's not even an ult, yet it's one of the cheapest yet most effective CCs in the game.

 

 

It is true that they can't stop you from casting, but they can kill you in between casts. Now that bladestorm is faster you're left with far less time to regen shields. 

 

 

Being mortal in between casts is really not a compelling argument for why it should travel through walls.

 

I think at this point, we simply agree to disagree.

[Azawarau]

Miasma has pretty short range for an ult.

 

Stomp does poor damage and the duration is not affected by duration mods. So if you modded it for max range you'd be forced to go and kill every enemy or wait for it to end before you could re-cast it. Any enemies that spawn after you cast are free to shoot you all they want.

 

Enemies can also shoot at you while under the affects of Chaos.

 

It is true that they can't stop you from casting, but they can kill you in between casts. Now that bladestorm is faster you're left with far less time to regen shields. 

 

I didn't like cold revenge and I couldn't get into a mission without lagging to hell. So I didn't bother running it. It isn't giving out any reward that I either don't have or care for (I'm never going to wear the badge as that shoulder is reserved for my disciple badge).

Miasma makes up for the range with extreme damage

 

And it covers more than whats needed to deal that damage out effectively

[SquirmyBurrito]

@Burrito

At this point you're just listing possible shortcomings for these abilities. We can go on for centuries and not get anywhere as long as you believe that because an ability has some minor drawback that can be negated with mods, that it is balanced for being able to travel through walls and maintain full effectiveness in separate rooms.

 

This doesn't discount the fact that I was able to clear 54 T4 exterminates without ever placing myself at risk. Also, if its range is so short, then it shouldn't be able to effectively clear rooms from behind doorways right? Well... it can. Very effectively. This is part of the reason why people were using Saryn for their 15.2 Vivers (however short lived that time period was). Also the reason I use Saryn for all of my speed clearing.

 

 

Poor damage is irrelevant as I'm talking about the CC aspect of it. It turns rooms into literal shooting galleries, and you're never forced to put yourself at risk to make it happen. Enemies being able to spawn in between casts is really not enough of a weakness to warrant this ability going through walls.

 

 

They can, but the Nyx would have to be really, really not paying attention to be in harm's way while Chaos is active. Being a Nyx main that's been through many hairy T4 defense runs, I can safely say that Chaos being active pretty much gives you free reign. It's not even an ult, yet it's one of the cheapest yet most effective CCs in the game.

 

 

Being mortal in between casts is really not a compelling argument for why it should travel through walls.

 

I think at this point, we simply agree to disagree.

 

That's because those shortcomings are what allow enemies to potentially counter it. None of the things I listed can actually be negated with mods, that's the whole reason why I listed them.

 

It has a base range of only 15m while the average ult has 30m. Not sure what your anecdotal evidence is supposed to take away from that fact.

 

Poor damage is actually incredibly important. Poor damage means you're forced to either wait the full 8 seconds before recast or you have to make sure you kill every enemy that is affected. Enemies being able to spawn between casts means that your 'shooting gallery' often becomes full of targets that are fully capable of shooting back at you.

 

Again, I made a statement of fact. What was the purpose in this reply? 'They aren't a threat if you aren't near them'- so what? My statement remains true. Chaos gives you free reign... as long as you don't get so close to the enemies that you draw their aggro.

 

Being mortal between casts, having an extremely short cast duration, having a target limit, and reappearing where you were when you cast it all add up to a pretty obvious weakness. Whether or not you think this should or should not excuse it not have a LoS restriction means jack to me. Bladestorm is a damage ability. And any damage ability that requires me to have LoS on them (that isn't Shield Polarize) is going to end up worthless once the enemies far exceed the level where it was ever a threat. If you want to attach a LoS requirement to CC/Utility powers, I won't like it but I could understand it. But nerfing the already incredibly limited damage ults is a huge no-no in my opinion. If I am going to put myself in harms way by attaining LoS on a group of enemies I might as well take the extra second or two to click and drag my crosshairs over the crowd and obliterate them with my weapon rather than wasting the energy to press 4 and hope they're still at a level where that kills them.

 

I've already listed a potential solution to this, but I'm not sure whether or not it was in this thread (I'm pretty sure it was).Give Fleeting Expertise a range debuff (either in addition to the current duration debuff or instead, that is for DE to choose I guess). Suddenly no one can have super cheap good ranged ults.

 

Miasma makes up for the range with extreme damage

 

And it covers more than whats needed to deal that damage out effectively

 

I listed its short range as a follow up to my point that enemies can counter it with long range engagements.

[Azawarau]

That's because those shortcomings are what allow enemies to potentially counter it. None of the things I listed can actually be negated with mods, that's the whole reason why I listed them.

 

It has a base range of only 15m while the average ult has 30m. Not sure what your anecdotal evidence is supposed to take away from that fact.

 

Poor damage is actually incredibly important. Poor damage means you're forced to either wait the full 8 seconds before recast or you have to make sure you kill every enemy that is affected. Enemies being able to spawn between casts means that your 'shooting gallery' often becomes full of targets that are fully capable of shooting back at you.

 

Again, I made a statement of fact. What was the purpose in this reply? 'They aren't a threat if you aren't near them'- so what? My statement remains true. Chaos gives you free reign... as long as you don't get so close to the enemies that you draw their aggro.

 

Being mortal between casts, having an extremely short cast duration, having a target limit, and reappearing where you were when you cast it all add up to a pretty obvious weakness. Whether or not you think this should or should not excuse it not have a LoS restriction means jack to me. Bladestorm is a damage ability. And any damage ability that requires me to have LoS on them (that isn't Shield Polarize) is going to end up worthless once the enemies far exceed the level where it was ever a threat. If you want to attach a LoS requirement to CC/Utility powers, I won't like it but I could understand it. But nerfing the already incredibly limited damage ults is a huge no-no in my opinion. If I am going to put myself in harms way by attaining LoS on a group of enemies I might as well take the extra second or two to click and drag my crosshairs over the crowd and obliterate them with my weapon rather than wasting the energy to press 4 and hope they're still at a level where that kills them.

 

I've already listed a potential solution to this, but I'm not sure whether or not it was in this thread (I'm pretty sure it was).Give Fleeting Expertise a range debuff (either in addition to the current duration debuff or instead, that is for DE to choose I guess). Suddenly no one can have super cheap good ranged ults.

 

 

I listed its short range as a follow up to my point that enemies can counter it with long range engagements.

I should add then that lvl 30-35 enemies fall in a single miasma with OE,TF, and intesnify for as low as 25 energy and speedily spammable

 

Energy restores and the 4 second stun make saryn an easy killer for viver map or hide and camp tactics

[HolidayPi3]

That's because those shortcomings are what allow enemies to potentially counter it. None of the things I listed can actually be negated with mods, that's the whole reason why I listed them.

 

It has a base range of only 15m while the average ult has 30m. Not sure what your anecdotal evidence is supposed to take away from that fact.

 

 

 

They can, and are negated with mods. If a Miasma modded with OE + Stretch and TF + Intensify (not even with Blind Rage!) can vaporize T4 void rooms from the safety of another room, the weakness of short range has been negated. My anecdotal evidence was merely used to support this fact with an actual in game example rather than coming up with some kind of rare situation that would somehow prove my point.

Why are you bringing up that it has that range again? It can still vaporize adjacent rooms for 0 risk because you can negate the range limitation with mods. Again, there is a reason that people used Saryn for Viver 15.2 after Mag and Excal got gutted.

 

 

Poor damage is actually incredibly important. Poor damage means you're forced to either wait the full 8 seconds before recast or you have to make sure you kill every enemy that is affected. Enemies being able to spawn between casts means that your 'shooting gallery' often becomes full of targets that are fully capable of shooting back at you.

 

 

 

Again, I'm not arguing on the point of its damage being a factor. To me, its damage is a bonus. Stomp doesn't need its damage to be good. I don't think its main feature is its damage. It's the CC portion of it that I'm addressing.

 

That aside, my whole point is that initiating the room nullification (Stomp) has no risk involved in doing so, because you can do it from another room. If I'm interpreting your side correctly, you're saying that this is okay because enemies might spawn in the middle of your shooting gallery session and shoot you back.

 

It is not all too often that enemies will spawn enough to fill the room to the point where it's 'full of targets that are fully capable of shooting back at you' in the 8 seconds that you're merrily shooting it up without any form of resistance. Unless you really poorly time your stomp and only net 2 enemies while the rest are spawning, this is such a rare instance. It's an edge case. That one very specific and rare scenario does not provide a compelling argument.

I'll reiterate. There's no risk involved with nullifying whole rooms of enemies with the way LoS is now. I'm fine with having the power to nullify whole rooms. I just think we should have to give up some of our safety to do so. How are intelligent enemies supposed to be designed and implemented if we can just freeze or kill them from another room before they can use their 'smart' AI? This is a balancing nightmare for DE, and that's why they've been slowly taking steps to remove this power from us.

 

 

Again, I made a statement of fact. What was the purpose in this reply? 'They aren't a threat if you aren't near them'- so what? My statement remains true. Chaos gives you free reign... as long as you don't get so close to the enemies that you draw their aggro.

 

 

I feel that I might be misinterpreting you a little bit. Perhaps you could explain this point a little more? I don't want to misconstrue your argument and make it look like I'm strawmanning. That is the furthest from my intention. But from what I've gathered, you're saying that it's okay for Chaos to not be affected by LoS because enemies will still shoot you if you're too close.

 

So the trade off for being able to affect your whole room and every spawn point relevant to your location is that you need to stand further away from enemies than they are from each other to completely ignored by anything and everything that can damage you? Nevermind the fact that you're already incredibly safe just from the fact that Chaos is active. I hope your next point isn't that we're at risk because we can take splash damage and crossfire. Because if that's a drawback that warrants being able to cast through walls, I'll truly be at a loss for words.

 

I'll end by reiterating what I've started with, as our argument is trailing more and more off the topic at hand as we go.

I support the changes to LoS because it forces us to place ourselves at risk to exercise our insane powers. With the way it is right now, powers take away so much of the challenge that the game could have with regards to clever positioning both by you and the enemy. There is simply no point right now to utilize the environment whether you are the Tenno or the enemy, as LoS does not matter.

 

Side note: This is a very interesting exchange of words. Typically when I see your posts on the forums, I'm in full support of them. I guess there's a first time for everything. That being said, I do appreciate your proposed change to Fleeting Expertise, but I prefer the changes that other posters have made: That is to strike a happy medium, and give powers a "true range" which is a fraction of their full range. This "true range" will affect things  not in LoS, as the "true range" will be small enough that anything standing that close to you while you're being a saiyan should get vaporized anyways.

 

I'm also just going to agree to disagree with you. We both have our viewpoints on the matter and it is very clear that neither of us is going to convince the other. Let people take what they will from our debate. I just wanted to voice a largely unpopular viewpoint and shed a little more light as to why LoS changes are being made aside from the very poor "Because it's realistic!" argument.

Edited November 18, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Tsukinoki]

Here is why I am against LOS:
1) It prevents supportive abilities from working correctly, such as Shield Polarize.
Lets say you're playing a Mag and you seen an ally is low on shields and decided to get behind cover.
You decide to help him and get him back into battle quicker.
Oh wait, you cant see him (even though you can clearly see his blue outline) so you can't help him even though there are enemies chasing after him.

I also did a test with a friend where we decided to stand about 10 meters apart back to back looking in opposite directions in a hallway.  He damaged his shields and I hit shield polarize.  And nothing.
His shields weren't restored even though there was nothing but empty space between us.  Meaning anyone not in front of mag wont receive any help from her.

 

Same thing with energy vampire.
In fact I found out something *really* silly with LOS EV:
You cast it on an enemy who is looking at you and run past them to regen some energy while shooting at other enemies down the hall.
After 5 seconds even though you can be pushing your back against the EV victim you aren't recieving any energy because neither of you are looking at each other.
Which means the only way to use EV at that point is to be constantly spinning in circles to make sure your frame "sees" the victim.

Further it prevents the abilities from working on the frame in question as they cant 'see' themselves.

It would make a wide variety of support powers nearly useless in their role to support people.

2) It makes already mediocre damage abilities worse.
Take for example Radial Javelin.
Because its damage is equally split up between the 3 it will only ever deal its actual listed damage against infested.
Further it has a 3.5 second total casting time.
1 second to hurt the enemies (not that bad) and then 2.5 seconds of swinging his sword around in a lazy animation that just gets him killed.
Nothing in the ability is powerful enough to warrant limiting its range to LOS.  Not even its stun, which lasts for about 3 seconds, meaning that the excal who uses it can't take advantage of the stun at all.

And in order to effectively use it because of enemies that can traipse through a door behind you into the room and start shooting you, you have to spin your frame in a few circles to make sure that excalibur "sees" the enemies.
And even then its not reliable.
See 9/10ths of an enemy who is crouching 'behind cover' the *wrong* way?  Oh well, you cant target him.
Have a butcher come up and hit you in the back?  Well if you dont remember to turn around and face him (and away from all of the other enemies) you wont hit him....

It essentially throws radial javelin back to the useless pile that it started as when the javelins were launched from excal.

In any ability that really only has pure damage, LoS is an un-needed nerf that just makes the ability even more useless than it already was.
Unless the *massively* buff up the powers to point that its a guaranteed kill into the higher levels powers like Radial Javelin don't deserve the nerf that is LoS.
Sure at low levels it can kill things, but honestly what can't kill things at low levels?
Even that Lato is effective at low levels.
But when you get to the actual meat of the game at the higher levels those types of abilities become near useless and need every advantage that they can get so that they are still somewhat viable.

3) There is absolutely *nothing* which can tell you if LOS is broken or not.
Enemy behind a chest high wall?  Your ability that requires LOS might hit half the time with no indication why it hit one enemy and not the guy standing next to him.
Enemy crouching behind a thin guard rail that you can clearly see?  Who knows if your ability will be able to target him.

The point is that it's just not possible to judge whether your frame can see enemies or not, and it seems completely random whether cover will block your abilities or not when you can clearly see half of the enemies body.
And this becomes especially important with allies and all of their parkouring.
Nothing tells you whether your frame can see them or not, making any support ability that relies on LoS a complete crapshot.

[Azawarau]

They can, and are negated with mods. If a Miasma modded with OE + Stretch and TF + Intensify (not even with Blind Rage!) can vaporize T4 void rooms from the safety of another room, the weakness of short range has been negated. My anecdotal evidence was merely used to support this fact with an actual in game example rather than coming up with some kind of rare situation that would somehow prove my point.

Why are you bringing up that it has that range again? It can still vaporize adjacent rooms for 0 risk because you can negate the range limitation with mods. Again, there is a reason that people used Saryn for Viver 15.2 after Mag and Excal got gutted.

 

Again, I'm not arguing on the point of its damage being a factor. To me, its damage is a bonus. Stomp doesn't need its damage to be good. I don't think its main feature is its damage. It's the CC portion of it that I'm addressing.

 

That aside, my whole point is that initiating the room nullification (Stomp) has no risk involved in doing so, because you can do it from another room. If I'm interpreting your side correctly, you're saying that this is okay because enemies might spawn in the middle of your shooting gallery session and shoot you back.

 

It is not all too often that enemies will spawn enough to fill the room to the point where it's 'full of targets that are fully capable of shooting back at you' in the 8 seconds that you're merrily shooting it up without any form of resistance. Unless you really poorly time your stomp and only net 2 enemies while the rest are spawning, this is such a rare instance. It's an edge case. That one very specific and rare scenario does not provide a compelling argument.

I'll reiterate. There's no risk involved with nullifying whole rooms of enemies with the way LoS is now. I'm fine with having the power to nullify whole rooms. I just think we should have to give up some of our safety to do so. How are intelligent enemies supposed to be designed and implemented if we can just freeze or kill them from another room before they can use their 'smart' AI? This is a balancing nightmare for DE, and that's why they've been slowly taking steps to remove this power from us.

 

 

I feel that I might be misinterpreting you a little bit. Perhaps you could explain this point a little more? I don't want to misconstrue your argument and make it look like I'm strawmanning. That is the furthest from my intention. But from what I've gathered, you're saying that it's okay for Chaos to not be affected by LoS because enemies will still shoot you if you're too close.

 

So the trade off for being able to affect your whole room and every spawn point relevant to your location is that you need to stand further away from enemies than they are from each other to completely ignored by anything and everything that can damage you? Nevermind the fact that you're already incredibly safe just from the fact that Chaos is active. I hope your next point isn't that we're at risk because we can take splash damage and crossfire. Because if that's a drawback that warrants being able to cast through walls, I'll truly be at a loss for words.

 

I'll end by reiterating what I've started with, as our argument is trailing more and more off the topic at hand as we go.

I support the changes to LoS because it forces us to place ourselves at risk to exercise our insane powers. With the way it is right now, powers take away so much of the challenge that the game could have with regards to clever positioning both by you and the enemy. There is simply no point right now to utilize the environment whether you are the Tenno or the enemy, as LoS does not matter.

 

Side note: This is a very interesting exchange of words. Typically when I see your posts on the forums, I'm in full support of them. I guess there's a first time for everything. That being said, I do appreciate your proposed change to Fleeting Expertise, but I prefer the changes that other posters have made: That is to strike a happy medium, and give powers a "true range" which is a fraction of their full range. This "true range" will affect things  not in LoS, as the "true range" will be small enough that anything standing that close to you while you're being a saiyan should get vaporized anyways.

 

I'm also just going to agree to disagree with you. We both have our viewpoints on the matter and it is very clear that neither of us is going to convince the other. Let people take what they will from our debate. I just wanted to voice a largely unpopular viewpoint and shed a little more light as to why LoS changes are being made aside from the very poor "Because it's realistic!" argument.

I like you

 

Here is why I am against LOS:

1) It prevents supportive abilities from working correctly, such as Shield Polarize.

Lets say you're playing a Mag and you seen an ally is low on shields and decided to get behind cover.

You decide to help him and get him back into battle quicker.

Oh wait, you cant see him (even though you can clearly see his blue outline) so you can't help him even though there are enemies chasing after him.

I also did a test with a friend where we decided to stand about 10 meters apart back to back looking in opposite directions in a hallway.  He damaged his shields and I hit shield polarize.  And nothing.

His shields weren't restored even though there was nothing but empty space between us.  Meaning anyone not in front of mag wont receive any help from her.

 

Same thing with energy vampire.

In fact I found out something *really* silly with LOS EV:

You cast it on an enemy who is looking at you and run past them to regen some energy while shooting at other enemies down the hall.

After 5 seconds even though you can be pushing your back against the EV victim you aren't recieving any energy because neither of you are looking at each other.

Which means the only way to use EV at that point is to be constantly spinning in circles to make sure your frame "sees" the victim.

Further it prevents the abilities from working on the frame in question as they cant 'see' themselves.

It would make a wide variety of support powers nearly useless in their role to support people.

2) It makes already mediocre damage abilities worse.

Take for example Radial Javelin.

Because its damage is equally split up between the 3 it will only ever deal its actual listed damage against infested.

Further it has a 3.5 second total casting time.

1 second to hurt the enemies (not that bad) and then 2.5 seconds of swinging his sword around in a lazy animation that just gets him killed.

Nothing in the ability is powerful enough to warrant limiting its range to LOS.  Not even its stun, which lasts for about 3 seconds, meaning that the excal who uses it can't take advantage of the stun at all.

And in order to effectively use it because of enemies that can traipse through a door behind you into the room and start shooting you, you have to spin your frame in a few circles to make sure that excalibur "sees" the enemies.

And even then its not reliable.

See 9/10ths of an enemy who is crouching 'behind cover' the *wrong* way?  Oh well, you cant target him.

Have a butcher come up and hit you in the back?  Well if you dont remember to turn around and face him (and away from all of the other enemies) you wont hit him....

It essentially throws radial javelin back to the useless pile that it started as when the javelins were launched from excal.

In any ability that really only has pure damage, LoS is an un-needed nerf that just makes the ability even more useless than it already was.

Unless the *massively* buff up the powers to point that its a guaranteed kill into the higher levels powers like Radial Javelin don't deserve the nerf that is LoS.

Sure at low levels it can kill things, but honestly what can't kill things at low levels?

Even that Lato is effective at low levels.

But when you get to the actual meat of the game at the higher levels those types of abilities become near useless and need every advantage that they can get so that they are still somewhat viable.

3) There is absolutely *nothing* which can tell you if LOS is broken or not.

Enemy behind a chest high wall?  Your ability that requires LOS might hit half the time with no indication why it hit one enemy and not the guy standing next to him.

Enemy crouching behind a thin guard rail that you can clearly see?  Who knows if your ability will be able to target him.

The point is that it's just not possible to judge whether your frame can see enemies or not, and it seems completely random whether cover will block your abilities or not when you can clearly see half of the enemies body.

And this becomes especially important with allies and all of their parkouring.

Nothing tells you whether your frame can see them or not, making any support ability that relies on LoS a complete crapshot.

Well for 1 you dont actually have to see the enemies

 

They just have to be in a direct like without a blocking object in your way

 

Soft LoS fixes some of those issues

 

Selective could work as well

 

Mags heal portion of polarize goes through walls but not the damage portion

 

2 is kind of a bad point since radial javelin could be buffed  along with other powers in one way or another

 

And again you dont have to actually see the enemy.

 

If youre referring to checking if youll actually hit well you should know your surroundings relatively well most times and again a soft LoS would make this issue a non issue. If the enemy is behind a wall you wont have to worry about it

 

You shouldnt be using a bug or minor issue like rails blocking LoS powers as a reason either

 

That can be and would likely be fixed eventually. Another non issue

 

And just a question... Why are you ignoring the stun on RJ?

 

If you think LoS is the reason RJ wouldnt be viable you might need to step back a bit and read up on its other fault aspects

 

For 3 youre again using bugs or issues that can be fixed and could become non issues

 

Most of your arguments are dismissible ._.

[Tsukinoki]

@Azawarau
DE didn't want EV to go through walls or cover (which like I said lead to some *very* silly occurances with it because they want Hard LoS) so I doubt that they would make a change for Shield Polarize which makes that ability pretty damn useless.

And for RJ you *had* to have your frame see the enemies.
The butcher running up and hitting you and not being hit by RJ?
That actually happened to me.
So yes, with DE's implementation of LoS they could hit you in the back of your head and unless you turned around your LoS abilities would not hit them.

And how is railing a "minor issue" when it does bloc LoS? Because just look at how much railing is everywhere and how much LoS it breaks.
Even Radial Blind still has issues with enemies standing, facing you and shooting their guns, behind a rail.

And why am I ignoring the stun on RJ?
Maybe because its a 3 second stun that starts as soon as damage is dealt, meaning that you waste 2.5 seconds swinging your sword around and unable to take advantage of the stun at all.
It makes the stun completley worthless because it lasts no where near long enough to actually take advantage of.

And without LoS RJ is actually *usable*.
Its still not very good, but at least it does *something* now at lower levels.

And how can the issue of "You can't tell if you have LoS or not" be a non issue or bug?
There is *nothing* in the game that tells you whether you have LoS to enemies or allies when it comes to abilities.
And that makes using such abilities an almost random crapshot hoping that your enemies or allies will be just enough out of cover to be affected without any possible way of knowing beforehand.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I should add then that lvl 30-35 enemies fall in a single miasma with OE,TF, and intesnify for as low as 25 energy and speedily spammable

 

Energy restores and the 4 second stun make saryn an easy killer for viver map or hide and camp tactics

 

That doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know nor does it change what I said.

 

snipasaurus 

 

No, they aren't. The build you suggested results in only 2.5k damage with a 35 meter radius. Thirty-five meters is ~average among frame ults and is not far enough to prevent enemies from killing you at longer distances (especially in the void where rooms can be giant). To get to average range you were forced to give up ~1.2k damage.

 

You can not negate the range limitation as no matter what mods you add it will always have shorter range than most other warframe ults. Viver was a tiny map and Saryn has a high damage, incredibly spammable, negative duration encouraging, ult that can be modded to have just enough range to cover a good chunk of the tiny map.

 

You seem to be completely missing the point. The lack of damage combined with the chaos-like wait mechanics means you're forced to either wait eight seconds between casts OR kill every affected enemy.

 

That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

Enemies respawn a lot faster than you seem to think they do. It isn't a rare scenario, (using your argument) as a former Rhino main I noticed this issue long ago and every time I choose to dust off my Rhino I get reminded of it.

 

I do not think LoS restrictions are what are needed to apply risk to ults. My suggested change for fleeting expertise would do the job without gutting the abilities.

 

There was a thread that I agree with that talks about enemy AI: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/

 

No, my opinion on Chaso not being LoS is separate from this side conversation I've been having with you. My opinion is that none of the non-light based AoE abilities should be LoS because of how stupidly limiting that becomes and because it turns most of the tilesets into anti-player maps (there is so much cover in the average tileset). My statement on Chaos was pointing out that it does indeed have a drawback that enemies can use to kill you. Chaos isn't a hard disable therefore your claim from earlier wherein you said that enemies can't counter them was false. That is why I listed all those drawbacks in the first place. IMO, enemies shouldn't be countering our ults. Our ults should be balanced the same way guns are balanced, around their ammo(energy). Fleeting Expertise has basically given us infinite ability usage (especially when paired with a EVTrinity). I can counter a need for LoS with punchthrough on my guns, there is no additive punchthrough mod for abilities so an LoS restriction would leave me with abilities that are just far too restrictive to be worth using on 80% of the tilesets.

 

The issue here is that you're taking everything I list to be reasons against LoS restrictions. The drawbacks I'm listing are in reference to you claiming there was no way for enemies to deal with these abilities. I listed my reasoning for not wanting LoS restrictions in the previous paragraph. 

 

Trying playing the game with your normal build, but with fleeting expertise removed (and no EVTrinity). Suddenly those abilities no longer gimp the majority of the mission as you're forced to save energy. Now equip Fleeting Expertise and also add a Narrow Minded. I think my suggestion solves the problem without gimping abilities too much (look at the typical room size for the corpus ship tileset).

 

Well, you can't always agree with someone. I'd probably be more worried if you had always agreed with everything I said. This 'true range' suggestion would most likely result in players treating the change as if DE had nerfed their range to that smaller range. This is because of how negatively the community feels about LoS restrictions. In high end content where you're forced to take cover or die, you'd get screwed over by LoS restrictions. Another issue I have with LoS restrictions is that they make range mods worthless passed a certain point with the only exceptions being the occasional large room on smaller tilesets and the larger tilesets like earth and the map Cerberus uses.

 

Alright then, I agree to disagree... but I agree with the underlined.

Edited November 18, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[MichaelSD]

That doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know nor does it change what I said.

 

 

No, they aren't. The build you suggested results in only 2.5k damage with a 35 meter radius. Thirty-five meters is ~average among frame ults and is not far enough to prevent enemies from killing you at longer distances (especially in the void where rooms can be giant). To get to average range you were forced to give up ~1.2k damage.

 

You can not negate the range limitation as no matter what mods you add it will always have shorter range than most other warframe ults. Viver was a tiny map and Saryn has a high damage, incredibly spammable, negative duration encouraging, ult that can be modded to have just enough range to cover a good chunk of the tiny map.

 

You seem to be completely missing the point. The lack of damage combined with the chaos-like wait mechanics means you're forced to either wait eight seconds between casts OR kill every affected enemy.

 

That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

Enemies respawn a lot faster than you seem to think they do. It isn't a rare scenario, (using your argument) as a former Rhino main I noticed this issue long ago and every time I choose to dust off my Rhino I get reminded of it.

 

I do not think LoS restrictions are what are needed to apply risk to ults. My suggested change for fleeting expertise would do the job without gutting the abilities.

 

There was a thread that I agree with that talks about enemy AI: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/

 

No, my opinion on Chaso not being LoS is separate from this side conversation I've been having with you. My opinion is that none of the non-light based AoE abilities should be LoS because of how stupidly limiting that becomes and because it turns most of the tilesets into anti-player maps (there is so much cover in the average tileset). My statement on Chaos was pointing out that it does indeed have a drawback that enemies can use to kill you. Chaos isn't a hard disable therefore your claim from earlier wherein you said that enemies can't counter them was false. That is why I listed all those drawbacks in the first place. IMO, enemies shouldn't be countering our ults. Our ults should be balanced the same way guns are balanced, around their ammo(energy). Fleeting Expertise has basically given us infinite ability usage (especially when paired with a EVTrinity). I can counter a need for LoS with punchthrough on my guns, there is no additive punchthrough mod for abilities so an LoS restriction would leave me with abilities that are just far too restrictive to be worth using on 80% of the tilesets.

 

The issue here is that you're taking everything I list to be reasons against LoS restrictions. The drawbacks I'm listing are in reference to you claiming there was no way for enemies to deal with these abilities. I listed my reasoning for not wanting LoS restrictions in the previous paragraph. 

 

Trying playing the game with your normal build, but with fleeting expertise removed (and no EVTrinity). Suddenly those abilities no longer gimp the majority of the mission as you're forced to save energy. Now equip Fleeting Expertise and also add a Narrow Minded. I think my suggestion solves the problem without gimping abilities too much (look at the typical room size for the corpus ship tileset).

 

Well, you can't always agree with someone. I'd probably be more worried if you had always agreed with everything I said. This 'true range' suggestion would most likely result in players treating the change as if DE had nerfed their range to that smaller range. This is because of how negatively the community feels about LoS restrictions. In high end content where you're forced to take cover or die, you'd get screwed over by LoS restrictions. Another issue I have with LoS restrictions is that they make range mods worthless passed a certain point with the only exceptions being the occasional large room on smaller tilesets and the larger tilesets like earth and the map Cerberus uses.

 

Alright then, I agree to disagree... but I agree with the underlined.

 

+1

[Azawarau]

That doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know nor does it change what I said.

 

 

No, they aren't. The build you suggested results in only 2.5k damage with a 35 meter radius. Thirty-five meters is ~average among frame ults and is not far enough to prevent enemies from killing you at longer distances (especially in the void where rooms can be giant). To get to average range you were forced to give up ~1.2k damage.

 

You can not negate the range limitation as no matter what mods you add it will always have shorter range than most other warframe ults. Viver was a tiny map and Saryn has a high damage, incredibly spammable, negative duration encouraging, ult that can be modded to have just enough range to cover a good chunk of the tiny map.

 

You seem to be completely missing the point. The lack of damage combined with the chaos-like wait mechanics means you're forced to either wait eight seconds between casts OR kill every affected enemy.

 

That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

Enemies respawn a lot faster than you seem to think they do. It isn't a rare scenario, (using your argument) as a former Rhino main I noticed this issue long ago and every time I choose to dust off my Rhino I get reminded of it.

 

I do not think LoS restrictions are what are needed to apply risk to ults. My suggested change for fleeting expertise would do the job without gutting the abilities.

 

There was a thread that I agree with that talks about enemy AI: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/

 

No, my opinion on Chaso not being LoS is separate from this side conversation I've been having with you. My opinion is that none of the non-light based AoE abilities should be LoS because of how stupidly limiting that becomes and because it turns most of the tilesets into anti-player maps (there is so much cover in the average tileset). My statement on Chaos was pointing out that it does indeed have a drawback that enemies can use to kill you. Chaos isn't a hard disable therefore your claim from earlier wherein you said that enemies can't counter them was false. That is why I listed all those drawbacks in the first place. IMO, enemies shouldn't be countering our ults. Our ults should be balanced the same way guns are balanced, around their ammo(energy). Fleeting Expertise has basically given us infinite ability usage (especially when paired with a EVTrinity). I can counter a need for LoS with punchthrough on my guns, there is no additive punchthrough mod for abilities so an LoS restriction would leave me with abilities that are just far too restrictive to be worth using on 80% of the tilesets.

 

The issue here is that you're taking everything I list to be reasons against LoS restrictions. The drawbacks I'm listing are in reference to you claiming there was no way for enemies to deal with these abilities. I listed my reasoning for not wanting LoS restrictions in the previous paragraph. 

 

Trying playing the game with your normal build, but with fleeting expertise removed (and no EVTrinity). Suddenly those abilities no longer gimp the majority of the mission as you're forced to save energy. Now equip Fleeting Expertise and also add a Narrow Minded. I think my suggestion solves the problem without gimping abilities too much (look at the typical room size for the corpus ship tileset).

 

Well, you can't always agree with someone. I'd probably be more worried if you had always agreed with everything I said. This 'true range' suggestion would most likely result in players treating the change as if DE had nerfed their range to that smaller range. This is because of how negatively the community feels about LoS restrictions. In high end content where you're forced to take cover or die, you'd get screwed over by LoS restrictions. Another issue I have with LoS restrictions is that they make range mods worthless passed a certain point with the only exceptions being the occasional large room on smaller tilesets and the larger tilesets like earth and the map Cerberus uses.

 

Alright then, I agree to disagree... but I agree with the underlined.

Didnt you say earlier that LoS would make range mods useless though?

 

Using an open space such as the void VS something like the uranus? defense map where enemies can take large amounts of cover isnt exactly helping that

 

Im also not sure what you mean by enemies at 35 meters not being enough to prevent enemies from killing you

 

At that distance and farther the corpus and orokin shots are incredibly easy to avoid

 

Infested cant shoot and grineer become extremely innacurate an nonthreatening save for the ballista

 

Unless the enemies are killing you in one shot while youre hitting 4 while hiding behind a wall,pillar or box its not likely youll even be hit at all

 

And another thing

 

Powers like chaos are actually ok to not use LoS

 

Its not nearly as abusable for kills since

 

A. It deals no direct damage

 

2..Its limited by a usually long duration that wont go away until everything dies

 

III.It simply needs to bypass walls to function correctly as a utility

 

Comparing chaos to damage powers that were actually used on Viver to farm EXP its easy to see that the opportunity to abuse is much much smaller

 

Chaos always functions as intended

 

As for stomp

 

Even with the 8 second wait time it was clear that Viver could be farmed by stomping

 

Also stomp is far less of a damage ability and more of a CC similar to chaos but functioning slightly differently which is why it was less effective for farming than other AoE powers but still good enough to do the job

 

Powers that are AoE wall bypassing and focused more on damage than stun will always be an issue for this

 

Finally

 

Fleeting makes little difference with energy restores

 

The camping will happen one way or another

[SquirmyBurrito]

snip

 

Passed a certain point, yes. Completely useless in all situations at all times? No, not that I can remember.

 

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Corpus turn missions into a bullet hell game when left alive for a while. I'm also curious as to whether or not you missed the accuracy buff that the enemies got? I had attack drones instantly slaughter me from across cerberus before I realized what was going on.

 

Grineer also got that accuracy buff IIRC. 

 

Enemies tend to spawn both in front of and behind you.

 

Alrighty. I wasn't the one who initially brought up chaos.

 

Viver is a non-issue and was a tiny map. Why are you constantly referencing it as if it is the norm?

 

As a former Rhino main you aren't telling me anything I didn't already know. But as I stated, as a CC ability Stomp has its limitations. Dealing low damage while forcing you to wait for the non-moddable duration to end results in an effective cooldown timer (unless you kill all affected enemies before the time runs out).

 

I disagree. AoE wall bypassing nukes are only an issue until you get to high-end content where they fall-off completely. And prior to that stage, they're no more of an issue than any other over-modded weapon.

 

Fleeting makes worlds of differences. And IMO, if a player is willing to craft and use dozens of energy restores per mission (without fleeting expertise your abilities are going to cost you a lot more energy so one restore equates to a lot less) they should be able to use their abilities endlessly. Just as a player who uses ammo restores deserves to use their weapon endlessly.

 

I never said it wouldn't. Are you using my post to respond to numerous posters at once? Or do you think I said something that I never did?

[Azawarau]

Passed a certain point, yes. Completely useless in all situations at all times? No, not that I can remember.

 

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Corpus turn missions into a bullet hell game when left alive for a while. I'm also curious as to whether or not you missed the accuracy buff that the enemies got? I had attack drones instantly slaughter me from across cerberus before I realized what was going on.

 

Grineer also got that accuracy buff IIRC. 

 

Enemies tend to spawn both in front of and behind you.

 

Alrighty. I wasn't the one who initially brought up chaos.

 

Viver is a non-issue and was a tiny map. Why are you constantly referencing it as if it is the norm?

 

As a former Rhino main you aren't telling me anything I didn't already know. But as I stated, as a CC ability Stomp has its limitations. Dealing low damage while forcing you to wait for the non-moddable duration to end results in an effective cooldown timer (unless you kill all affected enemies before the time runs out).

 

I disagree. AoE wall bypassing nukes are only an issue until you get to high-end content where they fall-off completely. And prior to that stage, they're no more of an issue than any other over-modded weapon.

 

Fleeting makes worlds of differences. And IMO, if a player is willing to craft and use dozens of energy restores per mission (without fleeting expertise your abilities are going to cost you a lot more energy so one restore equates to a lot less) they should be able to use their abilities endlessly. Just as a player who uses ammo restores deserves to use their weapon endlessly.

 

I never said it wouldn't. Are you using my post to respond to numerous posters at once? Or do you think I said something that I never did?

Im responding to an issue that you seem to think doesnt exist

 

Viver specifically isnt the only issue and it never was the only one

 

Just the one that brought alot into light

 

LoS changes would be for the better

[shadowwalker0]

Can someone help me raise the topic of making a Ash Prime 

Ash has been there since the beginning warframes and deserves to upgrade to prime, however i rather wait for Ash Prime if there really putting effort towards it but from the subject of devstream there focusing on making other frames. So i ask that someone raise a discussion about the future of Ash, because as a Ash player my self I think he deserves more. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Im responding to an issue that you seem to think doesnt exist

 

Viver specifically isnt the only issue and it never was the only one

 

Just the one that brought alot into light

 

LoS changes would be for the better

 

That issue being... what? You mentioned Viver which is a non-issue now. If you're talking about how certain synergies result in the neutering of (relatively) low-level enemies which leads to hyper-farming, I don't see how that is an issue. Teamwork should be encouraged, not discouraged and nerfed.

 

I completely disagree. LoS changes (beyond the addition of LoS for the blind portion of prism) too heavily punish players for something that is beyond their control (enemies being in cover in a game that is full of cover seeking enemies and tons of places for them to indulge that desire) and makes using range mods beyond a certain point completely useless unless you're playing on a large/open tileset or are in one of the larger rooms in the smaller tilesets. And unless DE added a punch-through mod for abilities, it would almost always be better to just shoot the enemy as punch-through allows you to shoot through cover.

 

Can someone help me raise the topic of making a Ash Prime 

Ash has been there since the beginning warframes and deserves to upgrade to prime, however i rather wait for Ash Prime if there really putting effort towards it but from the subject of devstream there focusing on making other frames. So i ask that someone raise a discussion about the future of Ash, because as a Ash player my self I think he deserves more. 

 

Wrong thread...?

Edited November 20, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Azawarau]

That issue being... what? You mentioned Viver which is a non-issue now. If you're talking about how certain synergies result in the neutering of (relatively) low-level enemies which leads to hyper-farming, I don't see how that is an issue. Teamwork should be encouraged, not discouraged and nerfed.

 

I completely disagree. LoS changes (beyond the addition of LoS for the blind portion of prism) too heavily punish players for something that is beyond their control (enemies being in cover in a game that is full of cover seeking enemies and tons of places for them to indulge that desire) and makes using range mods beyond a certain point completely useless unless you're playing on a large/open tileset or are in one of the larger rooms in the smaller tilesets. And unless DE added a punch-through mod for abilities, it would almost always be better to just shoot the enemy as punch-through allows you to shoot through cover.

 

 

Wrong thread...?

I want to quote steve on this one

 

"Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken"

 

As for that second bit

 

Light LoS that is only blocked by walls would be as useful as it is now except less abuseable

 

Theres no punishment on payers this way and ive mentioned that a few times  already

 

Youre complaining about nothing

[SquirmyBurrito]

I want to quote steve on this one

 

"Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken"

 

As for that second bit

 

Light LoS that is only blocked by walls would be as useful as it is now except less abuseable

 

Theres no punishment on payers this way and ive mentioned that a few times  already

 

Youre complaining about nothing

 

Quoting Steve means nothing if you're ignoring the underlined bit and assuming the bold is always true.

 

That is objectively false.

 

That is also false. Having your range stat be constantly limited by your surroundings is pretty bad IMO.

 

Don't try and sweep me under the rug. My complaints are justified. If I have max range on my Radial Disarm (using it as an example) and I cast it in your typical corpus space ship room, more than half of my range is getting blocked by walls. That means wasted potential and that forces me to cast my abilities more often. When I don't have an EVTrinity or infinite energy restores this ends up just screwing me. Changing Fleeting Expertise so that it has a range nerf solve the problem far better than the limiting LoS change would.

[Azawarau]

Quoting Steve means nothing if you're ignoring the underlined bit and assuming the bold is always true.

 

That is objectively false.

 

That is also false. Having your range stat be constantly limited by your surroundings is pretty bad IMO.

 

Don't try and sweep me under the rug. My complaints are justified. If I have max range on my Radial Disarm (using it as an example) and I cast it in your typical corpus space ship room, more than half of my range is getting blocked by walls. That means wasted potential and that forces me to cast my abilities more often. When I don't have an EVTrinity or infinite energy restores this ends up just screwing me. Changing Fleeting Expertise so that it has a range nerf solve the problem far better than the limiting LoS change would.

Your complaints are relying heavily on situational times and dont factor in pros nearly as much as cons

 

LoS itself wont change the better part of the game aside from small rooms you may be hiding in

 

The potential buffs to other powers could make up for that

 

Ill agree that fleeting is an issue but i dont think changing it to range will be any better

 

Durational self buffs will be the new issue with itId rather see it lowered to perhaps 30/30 or 30/20 at max rank

 

TL;DR

 

LoS isnt as limited as you say

 

Fleeting is an issue

[SquirmyBurrito]

Your complaints are relying heavily on situational times and dont factor in pros nearly as much as cons

 

LoS itself wont change the better part of the game aside from small rooms you may be hiding in

 

The potential buffs to other powers could make up for that

 

Ill agree that fleeting is an issue but i dont think changing it to range will be any better

 

Durational self buffs will be the new issue with itId rather see it lowered to perhaps 30/30 or 30/20 at max rank

 

TL;DR

 

LoS isnt as limited as you say

 

Fleeting is an issue

 

Those situations occur during the majority of gameplay. And the pros are practically nonexistent. 

 

Small to medium sized rooms with enemies spawning outside and pouring in IS the majority of the game. So an LoS nerf would be felt for most/all of it.

 

What potential buffs? What does LoS buff?

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that then.

 

Durational self buffs are not (IMO) nearly as big an issue. But (as I have said) that will be for DE to decide. Invisibility, Hysteria, and Rift Walk can already last forever (duration+efficiency perfectly balanced with energy siphon to always end up with enough energy regenerated to fuel another cast) so making them even cheaper wouldn't change anything. And that is assuming the first option was chosen rather than the second option (simply adding the range cost to the existing downside of the mod).

 

TL;DR- I disagree with you on how limiting LoS is.

We agree on Fleeting being an issue.

Other stuff that you should read if you care about.

[Azawarau]

Those situations occur during the majority of gameplay. And the pros are practically nonexistent. 

 

Small to medium sized rooms with enemies spawning outside and pouring in IS the majority of the game. So an LoS nerf would be felt for most/all of it.

 

What potential buffs? What does LoS buff?

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that then.

 

Durational self buffs are not (IMO) nearly as big an issue. But (as I have said) that will be for DE to decide. Invisibility, Hysteria, and Rift Walk can already last forever (duration+efficiency perfectly balanced with energy siphon to always end up with enough energy regenerated to fuel another cast) so making them even cheaper wouldn't change anything. And that is assuming the first option was chosen rather than the second option (simply adding the range cost to the existing downside of the mod).

 

TL;DR- I disagree with you on how limiting LoS is.

We agree on Fleeting being an issue.

Other stuff that you should read if you care about.

Most places are small spaces with enemies pouring in but theyre also not heavily limited by walls

 

For example

 

That room on pluto where theres a small hallway with a window to one side and a wall with 2 openings on the other

 

The space that those openings lead to has 2 cameras and one small room underneat one of the cameras along with a larger door that leads to a hallway

 

If you were standing by the glass behind the wall and used your 4 it would hit every enemy in the room except for the ones in the small room and beyond the 3 exiting doors of that room

 

If you were on the other side near the alrge door youd hit eery enemy on both sides of the door and the ones in the small room if there are any in the room

 

This is one of the most restricting spaces in game aside from hallways and wouldnt limit you too terribly

 

As for buffs. Youre taking it the wrong way and im suspecting youre playing dumb a bit

 

LoS isnt a buff

 

There are buffs to other powers or aspects of the powers that became LoS that could be changed

 

For example

 

Mag polarize and Crush are now LoS

 

Crush gains an extra effect or damage

 

Bullet attractor opens up to huge buffs including the popular implosion dragging enemies in idea

 

Durational buffs are bigger issues than you might think

 

Its the reason a few frames are in question of balance