I Think Los Is Good. It Need A Small "addition" Though So It Can Be Actually Viable

[Kainosh]

Please read it all before commenting. I dont want to be disappointed in humanity anymore.

 

When I want to kill something by piercing it with MANY energy skanas...I need to:

1) Focus my energy around my target 

2) Create blades from that energy

3) Drive them towards my target.

 

And how in the hell am I supposed to do that if I dont know target location?

 

Imagine a 10 meter high wall.  On one side there is You with RC heli. And on the other side of the wall there is a 1m radius circle.

You cant see that circle... Now try to land that heli in that circle. Is it possible for you? 

Ok now! 

Lets add a person on the side with a circle. He will tell you if you driving your heli in the right direction!

Waaay beter, yes?

 

So all that LoS need is to be actually affected by teammates! Not all warframes can see through walls...But they can help each other.

And if you solo...Well its not that hard to actually face your enemy. 

 

You guys just overreacted. Frames are same weapons...We have no weapons that can detect and kill enemies through walls. Well some can but they also have limitations. And frames are SAME weapons, made by same ppl. They already do WILD sh*t compared to other stuff in Warframe...Why would you need so much power? To smash mindless bots faster? Please...

 

 

[Edit № 1]

 

Wow! Its still alive! And I still think that LOS is the RIGHT WAY!

 

Many said that It makes no sence coz we can see enemies on exterminations and all....WELL WE SHOULDNT SEE THEM!  WHY? Because we can easily use ENEMY RADAR or ENEMY SENSE! These mods are useless on exterminations right now.

 

All I want to say is that current mechanic doesnt make sense at all.  We can see enemies on exterminations...But we cant see them in normal missions.

We can use our ults to kill UNSEEN enemies WITHOUT actually knowing that they are there! But they doesnt show on minimap!

 

Thats messed up. We have only 2 ways of solving that stuff :

 

1st path.  "Easy mode"

Remove Enemy radar mods ;

All enemies are always marked on minimap;

AOE abilities can hit every enemy in range.

 

 

2nd path.  "Not-so-hard-and-far-more-interesting mode"

Remove enemy marks from all game mods (exept Archwing) ;

Enemy sence and Enemy radar mods should be easier to get (starting quest reward) ;

Some AOE abilities should require Line of Sight to be used properly ;

All tenno should have shared Vision and if one sees enemies they automatically marked on minimap for others;

Scanner should MARK enemies similar to camera from "FAR CRY" series. Once marked they will always be on your minimap.

      

 I believe that LoS Is totally needed because : It will add value to SCANNER (as ingame tool of detection) and enemy detection mods and some frames .

 

Here is my list of abilities that should "get LoS'd" with possible tweaks:

 (note that "visible" = marked on minimap. Also consider 2nd path while reading this)
 

 [ Ember ] 

Sorry to start with her...She need a buff badly.

 

> World on fire <   It should NOT create explosions on unseen enemies. However, if there are no visible targets in range, explosions occur randomly in ability range. So you will still be able to hit stuff behind walls....but with less precision and only if there are NO visible enemies in range.

 

 [ Excalibur ] 

He need a good 3rd ability first. An ability that will fit his name.  He need a built-in SWORD (like Valkyr's claws) That will consume no stamina on blocking but will have limited duration. Anyway, lets get back to LoS

 

 > Radial javelin <   It should aim only visible enemies

If no enemies are visible, Excal will create blades AROUND himself! These will orbit him and deal base ability damage/sec to every enemy that get too close. Blades last for 10/13/16/20 seconds. Affected by duration mods.

 

 [ Mag ]  

> Shield polarise <  That one is tricky   It should NOT destroy shields of unseen units.  But it should always restore shields for allies in range.

> Crush <    Crush soon will get tweak (buff). And then it will "break" enemies. Once this applied Mag will become a powerfull CC source. And her range is insane. Totally need LoS (You can go with enemy radar anyway + your teammates will be on the map...2nd path thingy )

 

 [ Oberon ]

> Reconing <    I play Oberon alot. And he is IN THE FACE kind of warframe. So it will not hurt a bit.  And there is always his heat seeking 1st there so yeah.

 

 [  Rhino ]

> STOMP <   Its outward SHOCKWAVE. Unlike MPRIME ( that is a slow wave of priming on atomic lvl ) Stomp, due to Its description, is a result of Rhino stomping the ground, so shockwave have natural character and contain NO "tenno magic". Hence it can't be guided by other tenno or enemy detection mods.

     Stomp should act like Explosion.  It should do 3 things : 1) Diminish with range; 2) Have epicenter (with tons of damage) 3) Throw EXPOSED enemies outwards and stun ALL enemies in range .       These effects should always present despite any additional ones IMO.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Kainosh

[vaugahn]

I agree, though I'd propose a different solution.

 

First off, not all abilities should have LoS. Restrict LoS to "direct" abilities, like nukes and hard CC.

 

Second, give all abilities two radii, a smaller inner one of true AoE and a larger outer one that follows LoS. 

[Orbister]

Enemy radar.

 

Also, there is no radial javelin in the real world so why do you even try to make this logical?... LoS was reverted because it was buggy and decreased the quality of the experience of playing Warframe. And we CAN in fact see enemies's locations behind walls, when they are capture targets or "remaining" enemies, we see a marker even if the enemy is hidden behind a wall or object.

 

When we manually aim, we make slight corrections based on where we believe the enemy will be when the projectile actually hits the target, it seems that LoS is not very good at that in this game, because the most common complaint i've seen is that it misses targets, the problem is not really what we see and what we don't.

 

would you mind leaving the "gameplay judge" pedestal, this is not about people wanting "more power".

Edited November 15, 2014 by Orbister

[Squiintts]

 

And how in the hell am I supposed to do that if I dont know target location?

 

 

 

Dude, you're a frickin' space ninja . . . .  #logic

[SquirmyBurrito]

Please read it all before commenting. I dont want to be disappointed in humanity anymore.

 

When I want to kill something by piercing it with MANY energy skanas...I need to:

1) Focus my energy around my target 

2) Create blades from that energy

3) Drive them towards my target.

 

And how in the hell am I supposed to do that if I dont know target location?

 

Imagine a 10 meter high wall.  On one side there is You with RC heli. And on the other side of the wall there is a 1m radius circle.

You cant see that circle... Now try to land that heli in that circle. Is it possible for you? 

Ok now! 

Lets add a person on the side with a circle. He will tell you if you driving your heli in the right direction!

Waaay beter, yes?

 

So all that LoS need is to be actually affected by teammates! Not all warframes can see through walls...But they can help each other.

And if you solo...Well its not that hard to actually face your enemy. 

 

You guys just overreacted. Frames are same weapons...We have no weapons that can detect and kill enemies through walls. Well some can but they also have limitations. And frames are SAME weapons, made by same ppl. They already do WILD sh*t compared to other stuff in Warframe...Why would you need so much power? To smash mindless bots faster? Please...

 

1. How do you know radial javelin functions that way? 

 

2. Every weapon with puncture on it can kill enemies through walls.

 

3. We can already see teammates through walls so...

 

4. Enemy Radar.

 

5. Compare Nerfed Radial Javelin to Miasma or Overload.

 

6. How do these work when the frames can't see their enemies:

-Ash's Bladestorm (teleports to enemies that he often can not see)

-Ember's WoF (hits targets that she often can't see)

-Oberon's Reckoning (lifts targets into the air, LoS not necessary)

 

7. As many often tell me, this is a video game, not real life. Logic need not apply.

[MichaelSD]

No, LOS is wrong for so many reason. Way to complex, not fitting the theme, not archiving anything worthwhile, not contributing to the flow of the game.

[superbot34]

what the hell is LOS

[MichaelSD]

Line of Sight mechanic, where obstacles block the abilities.

[Thaumatos]

Please read it all before commenting. I dont want to be disappointed in humanity anymore.

 

When I want to kill something by piercing it with MANY energy skanas...I need to:

1) Focus my energy around my target 

2) Create blades from that energy

3) Drive them towards my target.

 

And how in the hell am I supposed to do that if I dont know target location?

 

Wow...lets not apply logic to a videogame.

 

You've got no reason to be "disappointed in humanity" if you think that realism is what makes games fun.

 

There's real life happening outside.  That's as real as it gets.  Go play it.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Thaumatos

[Pizzarugi]

We're space ninjas that utilize powers from the void both technoligical, magical and supernatural wearing suits of armor that help us channel our energy while tearing apart armies of enemies that stand between us and our goals.

And you wanna apply more realism into the game? Okay.

[Azawarau]

We're space ninjas that utilize powers from the void both technoligical, magical and supernatural wearing suits of armor that help us channel our energy while tearing apart armies of enemies that stand between us and our goals.

And you wanna apply more realism into the game? Okay.

Its not about that

 

Its game mechanics being abused or being abusable

 

Powers bypassing walls has been abused for ages

[Pizzarugi]

Its not about that

 

Its game mechanics being abused or being abusable

 

Powers bypassing walls has been abused for ages

Then all we need is a 'soft' LOS, where abilities only cover the room it was cast in, but has absolutely no effect when trying to cast through walls/doors leading to other rooms.

[Azawarau]

Then all we need is a 'soft' LOS, where abilities only cover the room it was cast in, but has absolutely no effect when trying to cast through walls/doors leading to other rooms.

And then a buff to powers as well

 

Mags polarize

 

Excalis slash dash and javelin

 

Rhinos iron skin and charge

 

Certain frames might still pass walls like Ember and Hydroid but their abilities work in ways that thats ok

[TwiceDead]

Wow...lets not apply logic to a videogame.

 

You've got no reason to be "disappointed in humanity" if you think that realism is what makes games fun.

 

There's real life happening outside.  That's as real as it gets.  Go play it.

This is complete opinion material. 

This is probably somewhat off-topic, but I like realism in my games for the immersion. Now there's games that have bad mechanics that can be used as excuses for immersion, and then there's games that actually try to make the gameplay an immersive experience. It's important to differentiate here. 

 

Now Warframe and realism? I think we can safely brush that aside, considering that we can already stick to walls like magnets, we decelerate at a rapid pace in space, lasers travel slower than projectiles and a million things that would make Iaac Newton rise from the grave only to gouge his own rotted non-existent eyeballs out in vain. 

On-topic though:

I want LoS, not going to lie. I don't care if it's a soft or hard LoS, just make rooms less susceptible to one-button-press-nukes. Don't need to bring logic into it though, logic and Warframe don't get along much.

Edited November 15, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Thaumatos]

This is complete opinion material. 

 

The only thing that's 'real' about any game is that some things resemble common objects/names in real life.

 

That's it.

 

There's nothing realistic about anything outside of a simulator.  And then only certain ones (mostly flight/drive sims).

 

As far as realism being 'fun' ... that's my opinion and that's the only thing about my post that was opinion.  The rest of it is factual.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Thaumatos

[SquirmyBurrito]

Wow...lets not apply logic to a videogame.

 

You've got no reason to be "disappointed in humanity" if you think that realism is what makes games fun.

 

There's real life happening outside.  That's as real as it gets.  Go play it.

 

To be fair, realism IS what makes some games fun. Warframe just isn't one of those games.

 

Not everyone can or wants to go out and try the things their games are attempting to mimic. This often comes down to time constraints, physical limitations, financial limitations, and/or geographical issues (living in the middle of nowhere leaves you with very little to do for fun outside IMO).

 

And then a buff to powers as well

 

Mags polarize

 

Excalis slash dash and javelin

 

Rhinos iron skin and charge

 

Certain frames might still pass walls like Ember and Hydroid but their abilities work in ways that thats ok

 

Why should Shield Polarize have a line of sight limitation? And the soft LoS thing would make range mods useless in many situations.

 

I'd say that most non-target-able AoE abilities shouldn't have LoS requirements and the only ones that should would be radial blind. I also disagree with the claim that they were abusable and being abused in their non-LoS state.

Edited November 16, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Z123FFSS89]

No. Range mods are pointless with Los. No.

[Duch99pl]

LOS sucks. DE should bring all the frames effected by it to its formr state, LOS was just a way to de-buff viver, but now that viver is a hive mission, and many mission can get you allot of reputation, LOS is not needed and not welcome.

[Azawarau]

To be fair, realism IS what makes some games fun. Warframe just isn't one of those games.

 

Not everyone can or wants to go out and try the things their games are attempting to mimic. This often comes down to time constraints, physical limitations, financial limitations, and/or geographical issues (living in the middle of nowhere leaves you with very little to do for fun outside IMO).

 

 

Why should Shield Polarize have a line of sight limitation? And the soft LoS thing would make range mods useless in many situations.

 

I'd say that most non-target-able AoE abilities shouldn't have LoS requirements and the only ones that should would be radial blind. I also disagree with the claim that they were abusable and being abused in their non-LoS state.

I couldnt hear over the sound of myself hiding behind a wall and spamming 4 for easy survival kills

 

Oh Macro

 

Youre so good to me

[oinkah]

Personally I would prefer ultimates to remain strong and not limited to LOS, but not spammable.

DE talked about this in their very first devstream. They wanted ultimates to be able to change the tide of battle, but should only be used in most dire situations. So they would be used only few times per mission, due to their cost. LOS limit would make them a gamble, not worth risking your energy.

DE had right ideas at first. But then Fleeting expertise happened (and other energy exploits) and now players consider nerfing ultimates for the sake of spamming them.

[MichaelSD]

Personally I would prefer ultimates to remain strong and not limited to LOS, but not spammable.

DE talked about this in their very first devstream. They wanted ultimates to be able to change the tide of battle, but should only be used in most dire situations. So they would be used only few times per mission, due to their cost. LOS limit would make them a gamble, not worth risking your energy.

DE had right ideas at first. But then Fleeting expertise happened (and other energy exploits) and now players consider nerfing ultimates for the sake of spamming them.

 

+1

[ndantony]

I imagine a similar scenario, Capcom would lose its Marvel franchises and Stanley would sue them for modifying his superheroes or nerfing them into CoD. And Magneto and Xavier would run in to the corner and cry. LOL

[HolidayPi3]

Eh, I'll take a lot of flak for this, but I agree with LoS changes as long as it's applied properly to enemies as well as us.

 

I don't mind having to put myself at risk to exercise my demi-god powers as long as enemies no longer have the ability to bombard, burn, sap my energy, cast a wave of fire, hook, and teleport me out of 5m thick cover. 

 

There's more challenge involved in terms of proper positioning when LoS comes into play. Positioning will actually finally be important if BOTH us and the enemy have LoS changes applied.

To me, there is really nothing fun about hiding in a ditch and covering my ears and 44444444444444 until every enemy within a 80m radius is dead. That takes away any semblance of strategy, and it's incredibly difficult for DE to balance around. Why even bother making smarter enemies when the only way to counter our power is to make ultra cheap, stat-pumped enemies?

 

Maybe I'm alone in this opinion. 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Eh, I'll take a lot of flak for this, but I agree with LoS changes as long as it's applied properly to enemies as well as us.

 

I don't mind having to put myself at risk to exercise my demi-god powers as long as enemies no longer have the ability to bombard, burn, sap my energy, cast a wave of fire, hook, and teleport me out of 5m thick cover. 

 

There's more challenge involved in terms of proper positioning when LoS comes into play. Positioning will actually finally be important if BOTH us and the enemy have LoS changes applied.

To me, there is really nothing fun about hiding in a ditch and covering my ears and 44444444444444 until every enemy within a 80m radius is dead. That takes away any semblance of strategy, and it's incredibly difficult for DE to balance around. Why even bother making smarter enemies when the only way to counter our power is to make ultra cheap, stat-pumped enemies?

 

Maybe I'm alone in this opinion. 

 

I think you're overestimating the power of the average Warframe's ult (or most powerful damage ability if it isn't the ult). Mag's shield polarize versus Corpus is an exception.

[HolidayPi3]

I think you're overestimating the power of the average Warframe's ult (or most powerful damage ability if it isn't the ult). Mag's shield polarize versus Corpus is an exception.

Not quite-- There are a number of warframes that can accomplish this, and they don't even have to do damage to nullify the enemy to the point where them having an AI matters. The point still stands that it's incredibly hard for DE to design smart enemies when said enemies don't have a chance to position and mobilize through all of our wide area abilities. Enemies have no semblance of an answer for Miasma, Stomp, Chaos, Radial Disarm, Polarize, Slow-Prime, Bladestorm, Prism-Blind, etc.

 

Me saying "44444444" was more of blanket statement for any ability that basically stupefies enemies through walls, and makes them unable to retaliate and thus provide any form of challenge. There's simply no point in enemies taking cover or strategically taking positions in the next room to ambush us. We can just Chaos, Miasma, Stomp, etc. our way through their well-thought out ploy. The only way they can retaliate is how DE designs 'challenge' all too often. To pump enemy levels to the point where they're bland bullet sponges.

 

Again, I'm not saying this should only be applied to us, but to enemies as well. Although this game is not a cover shooter, I still believe that adding an element of positioning to WF as a whole would give its combat some more depth. I think we can all agree that it is no fun when our energy gets sapped away for no reason at 40m through walls (cough Cold Revenge).

 

I also understand that what I have to say is not what most of the community wants. A lot of people like being able to relieve stress by vaporizing enemies that look at them funny (bad example... since they don't have a chance to look at us when we vaporize them). I'm totally cool with that. I understand that feeling-- I'm just giving my perspective on the matter because I feel that the "It's more realistic!" argument is a weak one.

Edited November 17, 2014 by HolidayPi3