Why Cod Is Bad, The Myth Of "shotgun Sniping", And Can We Love The Gorgon Again?

[ShimmerDoll]

I really like the older version HEK and I do hope they would undo this change.

 

What really makes me unhappy is that we spend money and hourst on that weapon, now they just nerf it? I don't like this. Because now my efforts on this game looks so stupid. If this is about the shotgun sniping, they should enhance the performance of sniper rifle rather than nerf that of shotgun.

yeah they totally ignore the terrible sniper rifles and just hurt 2 guns that were fine.

Edited April 27, 2013 by BloodDoll

[Tyrian3k]

1. I know that fletchette exist. However, there is no shotgun in the game currently use it. It's bolt weapons like boltor/bolto that use these type of ammunition.

 

2. Using Expendable as an example? Really?

 

3. They shoot the gun in the third clip from 20 feet - roughly 6 meter away from the balistic gel. Of course it's going to be pretty devastating. In-game distance, you can see Grineer's wrinkle at that range. At that range, the rifle would blow a temporary cavity bigger than the pellets' track. 

 

We totally don't have a mod called flechette in the game, no...

 

Buckshot pellets conserve their energy about as good as smaller pistol rounds.

 

You underestimate ranges of weapons by far. In fact the lethal range of most weapons is far more than their effective range.

The problem shotguns have at long ranges is spread, not the lethality of a hit.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The problem with buffing other weapons is that it wouldn't matter in the least. The Hek ONE HIT KILLED at ranges that trumped rifles. No other weapon in the game could perform as good as the Hek; it was reaching outside of the intended difficulty because of the oversight of having such huge amounts of damage possible at such absurd range in such a short amount of time.

 

If the Hek didn't OHK, it might have been fine. But that would dramatically reduce its effectiveness, and people would still cry foul. Also, the Strun was actually not that far behind in the Hek's ability to OHK at longer ranges; using the Strun, I could OHK at effective ranges that I couldn't with a Braton. The amount of effort (aim was minimally required at best, as the spread was tight enough around the reticule to allow absurd accuracy), time spent killing (next to zero, OHK), resources spent (1 shotgun shell, in relation to upwards to 20-30 automatic rifle rounds) and damage delivered (point-blank shotgun damage with no damage falloff at any distance) was disproportionate to what was originally intended.

 

If DE brought all weapons up to the disproportional bar standard that the Hek set, they would have to rethink the entire enemy system, or the game would become far, far too easy for everything below Xini Wave 50. As if this game needed to be any easier.

 

Nerfing the Hek solved more problems then it created, although it and the other shotguns need their damage falloff looked at: a matter that DESteve has already said he would be doing, so there's little point in arguing about it now. Now that the Hek can be brought in line with the other weapons, DE can actually LOOK at those weapons to work at balancing them correctly instead of being forced to hold them up to the Hek's broken set of standards.

[Vanadio]

The HEK guys got their toy nerfed. And they try to theorize the RL shotgun physics and put it in a game.

The game will benefit, obviously there will be adjustments, but this is the right direction: avoid builds and items that largely render "weaker" the alternatives. Keep up the good work.

[Tyrian3k]

My question is: Why did they make a damage falloff for all shotguns instead of just giving the Hek more spread so that is loses its long range efficiency?

[Xtorma]

The problem with buffing other weapons is that it wouldn't matter in the least. The Hek ONE HIT KILLED at ranges that trumped rifles. No other weapon in the game could perform as good as the Hek; it was reaching outside of the intended difficulty because of the oversight of having such huge amounts of damage possible at such absurd range in such a short amount of time.

 

If the Hek didn't OHK, it might have been fine. But that would dramatically reduce its effectiveness, and people would still cry foul. Also, the Strun was actually not that far behind in the Hek's ability to OHK at longer ranges; using the Strun, I could OHK at effective ranges that I couldn't with a Braton. The amount of effort (aim was minimally required at best, as the spread was tight enough around the reticule to allow absurd accuracy), time spent killing (next to zero, OHK), resources spent (1 shotgun shell, in relation to upwards to 20-30 automatic rifle rounds) and damage delivered (point-blank shotgun damage with no damage falloff at any distance) was disproportionate to what was originally intended.

 

If DE brought all weapons up to the disproportional bar standard that the Hek set, they would have to rethink the entire enemy system, or the game would become far, far too easy for everything below Xini Wave 50. As if this game needed to be any easier.

 

Nerfing the Hek solved more problems then it created, although it and the other shotguns need their damage falloff looked at: a matter that DESteve has already said he would be doing, so there's little point in arguing about it now. Now that the Hek can be brought in line with the other weapons, DE can actually LOOK at those weapons to work at balancing them correctly instead of being forced to hold them up to the Hek's broken set of standards.

I do not agree with your evaluation of the strun. It did not deserve what it got, and it was a direct result of trying to reign in the hek. I saw this same colateral damage happen in ME3MP with the hunter mode nerf. Fact is, no matter what the devs do, we wont be getting the old strun or boar back.

 

It wasn't the players that set the standard here. There was no reason to nerf all the shotguns because they made a miscalculation when designing 1 of them. In all the weeks I have been here, no one said anything about the strun or boar being op. Now people are just using them to try and prop up their arguments about the hek nerf.

 

I think they are a strong, talented group of people, but this was just the wrong way to fix a mistake.

[Xtorma]

The HEK guys got their toy nerfed. And they try to theorize the RL shotgun physics and put it in a game. The game will benefit, obviously there will be adjustments, but this is the right direction: avoid builds and items that largely render "weaker" the alternatives. Keep up the good work.

I don't even have the hek. I have no problem with the nerf to the hek. I am only concerned with the strun and boar, and the direction they are going, appling across the board nerfs to try and fix a problem that only exisits with one weapon.

[Mietz]

As a shotgun user I always felt both the strun and boar were more of cone-AOE weapons than a OHK up-close weapon.

 

After all if I get close enough for melee range, I use melee.

 

My tactics with the shotguns (don't have HEK) was to soften up a large group of enemies, like swarming chargers, and then lay in to them with other weapons. I never used the shotguns exclusively as my primary way to dispatch enemies, the clip size often works against the user that way, spending half the time rotating around and trying to reload.

 

I didn't log in today so the question is how much does this change impact the "soften up" part of gameplay at range?

Theoretically it should make that tactic essentially useless, but how does it look practically?

 

I think DE wants to put more emphasis on weapon loadout synergies rather than having singular weapons that people focus on to kill S#&$ all the time with.

[neKroMancer]

To be frank, the existence of Hek actually has been making me puzzled for a very long time.

 

Why would DE put something that is actually better than everything into the game?

 

Obviously it is going to create balance problem sooner or later. Swinging nerf bat at everyone's favorite toy isn't going to end well, especially when said item is used by more than half of the community as a crutch in higher level content.

 

Obviously it's going to be nerf, either now or the next week. Strun and Boar probably get a falloff damage recalculate but I don't think Hek is going to be returned to glorified state, not anymore.

[NalkorRN]

As a shotgun user I always felt both the strun and boar were more of cone-AOE weapons than a OHK up-close weapon.

 

After all if I get close enough for melee range, I use melee.

 

My tactics with the shotguns (don't have HEK) was to soften up a large group of enemies, like swarming chargers, and then lay in to them with other weapons. I never used the shotguns exclusively as my primary way to dispatch enemies, the clip size often works against the user that way, spending half the time rotating around and trying to reload.

 

I didn't log in today so the question is how much does this change impact the "soften up" part of gameplay at range?

Theoretically it should make that tactic essentially useless, but how does it look practically?

 

I think DE wants to put more emphasis on weapon loadout synergies rather than having singular weapons that people focus on to kill S#&$ all the time with.

You'll barely soften targets up at all. Past 19 meters, the falloff turns the damage into something like a mere 7 or so per pellet. So now all three Shotguns are only good within spitting distance.

[Mietz]

You'll barely soften targets up at all. Past 19 meters, the falloff turns the damage into something like a mere 7 or so per pellet. So now all three Shotguns are only good within spitting distance.

 

Then this is bad and should be rebalanced with a larger spread for the respective weapons, removing the falloff or softening it.

If this is not enough to bring the HEK in line, then make it about the HEK exclusively, idk, less pellets.

 

The fun about the strun/boar with multishot was that they could cover large areas with a hail of medium damage from the hip.

[Aerensiniac]

I have just started on my gorgon and its COMPLETELY useless.

I have stood under a camera and emptied half of a clip into it cause my frikin gorgon sprayed around it.

As it is, gorgon can hit ANYTHING that is NOT in your reticule, which is completely insane.

 

Add a spin up time and voila: You have just made gorgon the most useless weapon in the frikin market. THE most useless.

Even the Braton can do more damage cause that at least hits the frikin target.

[Vanadio]

...cut

Even the Braton can do more damage cause that at least hits the frikin target.

 

Actually, the Braton it's one of the best weapon in game :P

[x3Darkie]

So... Why is CoD bad?

[neKroMancer]

I have just started on my gorgon and its COMPLETELY useless.

I have stood under a camera and emptied half of a clip into it cause my frikin gorgon sprayed around it.

As it is, gorgon can hit ANYTHING that is NOT in your reticule, which is completely insane.

 

Add a spin up time and voila: You have just made gorgon the most useless weapon in the frikin market. THE most useless.

Even the Braton can do more damage cause that at least hits the frikin target.

 

Braton has always been better than the Gorgon.

 

However, I tried it with Pluto mission. You need some high durability to use this weapon due to spin up time. The accuracy isn't that much of a problem since I never consider it as a 'snipe' weapon. It needs a lot more ammo to be viable in higher level though.

[Liminal]

Is the nerf that bad? I don't think so.

 

Damage falloff start around 15-20 meter and most of the engagement in the game occur within this range. At 40 meter (roughly), damage falls to abysmal level in order to balance things out. Giving shotgun and other weapons purposes and niches of their own is a good move. Do it now than do it later. The nature of the game, both PvP and PvE, require balance in order to promote diversity and prevent any strategy from dominating the playing field

Except it starts at 10 meters which, if you check by placing waypoints, is very close. Oh, and the falloff rate is insane.

 

I agree the Hek (not the Strun, not the Boar) needed a nerf, but not this nerf.

 

[neKroMancer]

Except it starts at 10 meters which, if you check by placing waypoints, is very close. Oh, and the falloff rate is insane.

 

I agree the Hek (not the Strun, not the Boar) needed a nerf, but not this nerf.

 

I think the falloff rate should be adjusted, giving each of them sweet spot to work in the field.

 

Boar probably going to be as it is since the purpose of it is CQC shotgun.

Strun should have an extended range more than the Boar, giving it a close-medium range spot in the shotgun hierachy.

Hek is a bit tricky to balance. Perhaps giving it a longest range but lowest clipsize/highest reload time/lowest spare ammo. Turn it into a monster shotgun but hard to use.

[Guest]

I really dont understand the complaints about accuracy. If you want an accurate rifle, get yourself a latron or a braton and supermod it.

 

Gorgon just stopped being a jack of all trades. It is still good for clearing out waves of approaching enemies or quickly killing tough guys like ancients.

 

Have some freaking respect for the developers trying to make your gameplay experience more challenging.

The Gorgon is so inaccurate now with every shot that you're better off just using the Braton. People tap shot with the Gorg because full auto would chew through your ammo fast and ammo drops scale poorly for it.

 

There's balancing a weapon and there's making it worse than cheaper alternatives players can get much earlier.

[PaxEthenica]

As a shotgun user I always felt both the strun and boar were more of cone-AOE weapons than a OHK up-close weapon.

 

After all if I get close enough for melee range, I use melee.

 

My tactics with the shotguns (don't have HEK) was to soften up a large group of enemies, like swarming chargers, and then lay in to them with other weapons. I never used the shotguns exclusively as my primary way to dispatch enemies, the clip size often works against the user that way, spending half the time rotating around and trying to reload.

 

I didn't log in today so the question is how much does this change impact the "soften up" part of gameplay at range?

Theoretically it should make that tactic essentially useless, but how does it look practically?

 

I think DE wants to put more emphasis on weapon loadout synergies rather than having singular weapons that people focus on to kill S#&$ all the time with.

 

I never used a HEK, myself, but I was a solid shotgunner. The Strun, my friend got me into, because it was so useful for him in the tight corridors and brutal, close-in fighting you're mostly doing in Warframe. The Boar was a side-grade for me, it could never one-hit anything unless it was overleveled and used against targets that didn't take cover or had a shield; being Corpus Crew, and humanoid Infested.

And since the latest patch, no, softening up your targets is no longer a viable strategy. Again, it's the fishiness of trying to CoD-ify "game balance" into a PvE third person shooter. You either get up close now, or you waste precious ammo.

 

I have just started on my gorgon and its COMPLETELY useless.

I have stood under a camera and emptied half of a clip into it cause my frikin gorgon sprayed around it.

As it is, gorgon can hit ANYTHING that is NOT in your reticule, which is completely insane.

 

Add a spin up time and voila: You have just made gorgon the most useless weapon in the frikin market. THE most useless.

Even the Braton can do more damage cause that at least hits the frikin target.

The Gorgon is so inaccurate now with every shot that you're better off just using the Braton. People tap shot with the Gorg because full auto would chew through your ammo fast and ammo drops scale poorly for it.

 

There's balancing a weapon and there's making it worse than cheaper alternatives players can get much earlier.

 

These three posts. Find them, up-vote them because they reiterate the point I made in the opening post which is still valid. The Gorgon no longer has a viable role to fill. Ammo drops are too stingy for sustained fire, the spin-up time leaves the player exposed, AI can't be forced to keep its head down, and getting close enough to use it effectively is downright suicidal in the more difficult planetary chains. So have fun sitting on your hands and being useless.

I've given it some thought and the only reason I can think of, potentially, for people to find a use with the new Gorgon is in busting Hyenas. That's it, just that; nothing else. The Grakata and Mk 1-Braton are both MUCH better general use weapons. The Braton can pluck a skull from cover (something the Gorgon used to be good at), and the Grakata can quickly strip down shields at multiple ranges (something the Gorgon used to be good at, too).

Edited April 27, 2013 by PaxEthenica

[Tyrian3k]

Why was the Gorgon even nerfed? It wasn't really OP since U7 hit.

[PaxEthenica]

Why was the Gorgon even nerfed? It wasn't really OP since U7 hit.

If I had to guess, someone in DE was, like, "I have an idea for a cool weapon design," without actually thinking through the tactical implications of his or her vision. So, when players began to use the Gorgon in ways that the designer hadn't wanted them to, they threw a tantrum and now I'm the one left with an inaccurate chaingun that's used up all of the bullets in the world mid-way through a mobile defense mission against the Grineer.

[Mietz]

The Gorgon is a separate topic imho.

 

I got it a day pre-nerf and i had to say it was -way- too useful with burst fire, with no mods installed it was still a blast to use without any downsides really.

 

I got it to lvl 12 now with potato and it feels considerably less useful and i switch to Lato more frequently.

However if they upped the mag capacity or removed magazines entirely (made it belt-fed) even with the less accurate version it would still be a great weapon for unloading at bosses and having sustained damage for staggering things like the Jackal continuously.

 

The spin-up could also be a lot faster, or start closer to the final ROF.

[Aerensiniac]

Why was the Gorgon even nerfed? It wasn't really OP since U7 hit.

 

this

[Ninja]

Whats the point of putting a XP locked on a weapon(Hek,Gorgon) that has the same or less effectiveness on other weapons that doesn't have it (Braton,snipetron)?

I mean hek can ONLY be purchased by people that has reached initiate 4 yet that weapon now is nerfed to hell,its not that good anymore at mid range even.

[Raijinmeister]

So, yeah, recent changes to shotguns and the Gorgon, plus a new weapon; I have no opinion on the new Glaive as I don't have it yet. Some people love it, and others are having problems. Whatever, the game is a beta and bugs will crop up with anything new and introduced no matter how much money you throw at quality assurance. It's the nature of PC gaming, you can't possibly know all the bugs before they happen.

 

But, the shotgun and Gorgon nerf? Yeah, that's something I definitely have an opinion on. I'll cut to chase of this little treatise and traipse out the thesis now: I'm not happy with it. Here's why.

 

Shotguns do not work like they do in Call of Duty, or at least they didn't before the patch and that was a marvelous thing. Warframe is not Call of Duty, it should not be Call of Duty, and it should not cater to Call of Duty fans. Why? Well, the obvious commercial answer is because Call of Duty fans already have Call of Duty. They won't be interested in something that isn't Call of Duty.

Oh, I'm sorry, were you expecting me to rant about how CoD is "ruining the modern-day shooter" or whatever? Yeah-no, I have more important points to make. Like how shotguns worked like their real-life counterpart before the patch, how shotguns were practically the perfect weapon for many of the tile sets in Warframe, and how that was a good thing. You see, much of Warframe is fought in relatively close quarters right now, and recent tile set expansions notwithstanding, the game is sometimes claustrophobic. Narrow corridors open up to sealed chambers, or fenced-in gantries without a lot of ready cover. Now, stop-just-just stop! Do not add a cover system! This isn't Gears of War, and Warframe shouldn't be Gears of War for the same reasons it shouldn't be CoD. The point is, however, that the distances that you fight in about maybe 70-80% of the time are really close. Like, stupidly close; heavy-urban-combat-close; so-close-that-I-could-reliably-hit-them-with-a-pebble-close, and it's these ranges where a shotgun excels. Really, they do, it's what they were made for. The hypersonic pellets remain hypersonic and deadly from modern-day shotguns up to and exceeding 60-70 meters at the lower gauges and heavier, denser shot-types . . . and I just ran a Corpus Defense where I was doing 10-15 points of damage at about 15-20 meters with a level 24, catalyzed Boar fitted with all the elemental damage mods, plus a mid-range Point Blank damage mod.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to have spent both money and hours on a shotgun that is suddenly useless at close-ranged combat? At no time should my sprays of heavy-guage, armor-piercing people-shot be reduced to sprays of peas and pearl onions! I want to kill my target, not garnish them when I shoot them in the face!

The concept of "shotgun sniping" is as stupid and it is factually and semantically incorrect. Sniper rifles are designed for ranges up to half a mile and in many cases beyond that. We're not fighting in environments where true sniper rifles are a factor. Warframe takes place at SMG/Shotgun ranges, and I'm guessing that most of the complaints about shotgun sniping are mostly being made by whiners who either aren't accurate or aggressive enough with their tactics and weapons. Or, perhaps they're just too hung up on being lone-wolf killing machines with the biggest gonads ever in their online co-op experience, and don't appreciate a quick resolution to the Heavy Gunner that's had them pinned for 10 seconds.

 

On to the Gorgon!

Why for did you screw up my 90-shot semi-automatic rifle with hose attachment? Was it the way it worked a dissonance against what you intended it to be? Before the update, it was really good at what I just described it as being - a heavy semi-auto with an 'oh crap!' option. Now it's... not. I don't know what roll the Gorgon can play now. AI isn't capable of being suppressed. Ammo drops, even with an artifact, are too stingy to support spray'n'pray, and its spin-up (and new inaccuracy) means that it's useless in bursts. And how is this inaccuracy supposed to work in the lore, anyway? Warframes enhance speed, strength, endurance, and expand their senses. You're telling me that this heavy, massive gun in the hands of a spess mareen is somehow too flimsy to handle the recoil of one bullet? That-uh . . . that makes my head hurt.

Again, I don't care if people complained about the Gorgon being overpowered. They're coming from la-la logic, and it's killing my immersion, enjoyment, and murderection. In this game any and ALL guns are overpowered with enough use, anyway; not only through modules, but also through familiarity of use. Even the old Mk 1-Braton becomes a killer in experienced hands and good mods are added so what's the point? Are you going to turn that vicious head-hunter into a hunk of junk, too?

 

Please don't be CoD, because you aren't CoD, so give me back my useful shotty. While you're at it, ignore the whiners and give me back my ballistic cat penis (THE BARBS!), too, alright? I miss it so much, and I'm not even 4 hours into the new update.

 

 

 

 

 

+1.

You said it all specially about the loss of accuracy with the Gorgon.

How the hell my Rhino can't hold the punch back of a weapon made in a distant future probably outfited with the state of the art stabilizers or whatsoever that prevents a grineer operator to hit his own forehead or foot  during a massive bullte spray...

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2013 by Raijinmeister