Weapons Seem To Go Far Beyond Frames.

[Innocent_Flower]

Maybe it's just that I've been playing too much t4 rather than t3 lately, but I'm finding that when you I get to around 40 mins of survival

 

- I can still kill everything with a few shots. 

- Trash mobs can insta-kill me. 

 

The same thing happens with nightmare mode and the ends of the solar system. 

This ain't to say that Health and shield mods need to be buffed. They clearly don't. They're pretty ridiculous actually. You get like 440% increases for a miniscule conclave rating and not too much polarity cost. But look at powers too: damage powers from casters are pretty much useless at high levels. 

 

But weapons? Should they really go where frames can't take you? Probably not. Frames are the lesser of the two evils. 

- Even though you're increasing your hitpoints to crazy levels, you're likely using five or six mods to change the way your powers work . Weapons on the otherhand: you're pretty much using every slot to increase your damage somehow. Part of that is because to have weapons work, you're going to need damage or else you'l be doing 4's against enemies with thousands. 

 

DE

-You simply shouldn't be in a situation where you can't possibly kill a common opponent because of how weak your gun is

- weapon mods shouldn't be just for adding more damage as players are currently conditioned to believe. 

 

 

Really: nerf the damage mods: 

 

Seration/hornet strike

A: Weaken it's damage

B: Make go up in 2's rather than 1's in terms of polarity as you rank 
AB2: Have the mod as it is till rank 5, where it's effectiveness lessens (it does less damage per level or costs go up faster)

C: Five rank system. Get rid of it's top 10 ranks. Give players the option to upgrade it to a dual-stat version of serration /hornet strike of the player's choice on rank 5. 

D:  might be fine as it is, so long as The other changes listed below are used. 

 

Heavy cal

a: Can't use at the same time as serration. An alternative with slightly higher damage, but with even more recoil.

B: Can be used as the same time as serration, but the accuracy penalty is larger and the damage increase smaller. 

 

Elemental/physical mods. 

No more Half-effective melee mods or cheaper-than-everything-else-for-the-same-damage. Then again we've got some strange ones like "cold damage and clip size" and "damage and fire damage" and "shock and channeling efficiency."

- Convert damage. Both with elements and physical damage mods.

- Normal elemental/phyiscal damage mods convert up to 90%

- The normal status chance mod needs a buff. Because of this, the dual stat-elemental mods should be changed

- The event mods (+status chance elements, 120% phyiscal damage) should be changed into either:

A: mods that ADD (rather than convert) up to 30% damage, but only one can be used.

B: Waste some damage for status chance in conversion

C: Ensure status chance will be from one element and not another. 

D: Offer different visual effects to the weapon/alter the status effect of that element.
E: Not form combination elements (so Fire and toxin will be separate and not form gas)  

 

 

Multishot mods. Devide into the following

1- Split a single bullet into many, less powerful pellets

2- Fire multiple bullets at once, or in burst fire, consuming more ammo. 

3- Group pellets together. Slug rounds for shotguns, 

 

 

You could add a lot interest into modding if

Guns were by default less accurate, and accuracy/falloff improving mods existed

Reloading became by default slightly longer. It'd add some extra skill in the game should reloads become more penalizing. 

More special mods. Like +status with chaneling, +slow with a shot. +ragdol. +element on ground slam, +Damage to heavy units

 

 

 

Lots of effort right? Well: It'd solve a good lot of balance issues, so It'd be worth it. 

[ZayTM]

I always felt pure damage mods should be built into the gun itself (i.e. the weapons gain damage as they level).

Another nerf I really feel is necessary is making multishot cost ammo to use. You want your boltor prime to fire two bolts at once? Fine... but it'll cost you 2 rounds. You're trading sustained dps and ammo efficiency for burst damage. It's a choice with meaningful advantages to both sides instead of just "throw multishot on everything".

Also, take this, we'll need it.

[nickelshark]

Or how about instead of nerfing weapons we buff frame abilities? Instead of abilities just doing x amount of dmg they could do a % based on the enemies health,armor,shield whatever. Maybe not to the extent of abilities like shield polarize but something of the sort so dmg based abilities just don't drop off so suddenly.

[Pizzarugi]

TL;DR: Nerf weapons until they can barely be able to take you to 20 minutes in survival, even in Apollodorus.

Yeah, no thanks.

[GinKenshin]

"NO" barrage incoming >_>

[Bobtm]

So I suppose the short version would effectively be;  Rebalance literally the entire game.

 

To not ramble as I'm normally prone to, I suppose it all depends on a number of factors here really.  It's honestly hard to have a solid opinion on these changes since it's literally changing basically everything about how the game plays now.

 

One core thing here is just this;  How far is too far?  <- in regards to endless missions.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Bobtm

[ZayTM]

Or how about instead of nerfing weapons we buff frame abilities? Instead of abilities just doing x amount of dmg they could do a % based on the enemies health,armor,shield whatever. Maybe not to the extent of abilities like shield polarize but something of the sort so dmg based abilities just don't drop off so suddenly.

we'll still have the same problem abilities have now. Yeah sure, they'll LAST longer, but...

Let's take an example. Shuriken. Let's say it does 500 slash damage +20% of the enemy's hp

Eventually this will get to the point where it's only 20% of the enemy's hp

Actually that sounds pretty good for a 1st power. I guess I contradicted myself?

The real problem will be with AoE powers (Looking at the four key pretty intensely). When World on Fire stops doing meaningful damage and starts doing what 10-15% of their hp with each explosion, or Miasma is only doing 40%...

Well, that actually sounds fine at high levels. Lower base damage, add scaling damage actually seems to work?

[PanicPrime]

I've had simialr feelings in this area.

With limited mod space (8 slots or 30/60/74 points whichever comes first) there is far too much redundant content.

 

Serration is mandatory on every single rifle. There's no reason to ever not put serration on a weapon.

Heavy calibre is 90% mandatory if you've got it too.

Then come the stacks of elemental damage mods.

Then crit/status mods if the percentages are high enough to warrant it.

 

Then if you've got 1 or 2 open spaces, drop in something that suits your taste. But only if you have any space left.

 

All weapons suffer from largely the same problem, and frames aren't MUCH better off.

 

The theory is sound - trade damage for utility, etc. But realistically, there IS a right and wrong way to mod a weapon.

The problem is that the right/wrong ways are almost universal for every single weapon.

 

Example: Why put "increased ammo capacity" onto a gun when you can recycle all unused ammo drops into ammo for that gun?

I realise one is low level content and the other is high level content, but such things aren't as apparent as they would be in more traditional level based MMOs.

[Innocent_Flower]

TL;DR: Nerf weapons until they can barely be able to take you to 20 minutes in survival, even in Apollodorus.

Yeah, no thanks.

Well, thanks for ignoring the parts of the OP that'd answer your little problem. 

[Cryhunter059]

If you feel like getting bursted down in seconds, while doung negligible damage to them, go into higher waves of a T4 defense, with an mk-1 braton and an extinguished dragon key. Once you've done this, and likely gotten murdered while the rest of the team tries to carry you, please tell me if you still feel this way.

[Pizzarugi]

Well, thanks for ignoring the parts of the OP that'd answer your little problem. 

Where exactly? I read your OP several times and I can't find anything to compensate for dramatically dropping DPS by making mods either more expensive for capacity or outright dropping damage buff mods.

And your suggestions are to make weapons weaker, nowhere are you suggesting to make enemies scale better to compensate. Our weapons get weaker, meanwhile enemies stay the same and are now much harder to kill.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Pizzarugi

[Yazeth]

In terms of endgame, you need the correct frames with the correct builds in order to get to that crazy 2hr mark that some players are able to get to, since at that point its more about CC than your weapons.

[ZukaBazuka]

OP if you feel you are killing enemies far to easy, switch weapon because not all weapon can offer that firepower. Also what weapon are you using? Because not everyone use the weapon you use, not everyone have all those mods so if we nerfed the S#&amp;&#036; out of all these mods most people would have trouble beating a single map.

[Kripnex]

I completely disagree.

 

Fighting bullet sponges that kill you in one shot is the worst possible thing that this game can aim for, it makes the game harder in a bad way because there is no challenge where there is no hope: you can mitigate damage by taking cover and being on the move, but the damage you do is constrained not by your skill, but by your equipment.

 

And when your weapon stops doing damage there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, you can't take the risk and keep going, because you've just hit a dead-end.

 

 

Additional things to take into consideration:

1. Most weapons are already useless

2. Ash, Mesa and (especially) Saryn already do more damage than 99% of all weapons

3. Loki and Ash can survive forever, does that mean weapons need to be buffed by a magnitude of INFINITY?  (Zephyr, Trinity, Mesa, and Valkyr also have great survivability.)

 

 

You need a new reason why we should nerf all weapons, for it seems that your argument has just been rendered useless.

[Innocent_Flower]

And your suggestions are to make weapons weaker, nowhere are you suggesting to make enemies scale better to compensate. Our weapons get weaker, meanwhile enemies stay the same and are now much harder to kill.

Did I not? 

 

Ah, Would have thought people would have assumed enemies would have to scale differently. 

[Kripnex]

Also, take this, we'll need it.

*Flame Reppelent*

 

You do realize that all you are doing is irritating people right?

"hurr durr u r mad because I want to nerf what you like so that means my opinion iz right" is what that image is saying in my face, stop using it.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Hakitojin

[Scryed]

Maybe it's just that I've been playing too much t4 rather than t3 lately, but I'm finding that when you I get to around 40 mins of survival

 

- I can still kill everything with a few shots. 

- Trash mobs can insta-kill me. 

 

The same thing happens with nightmare mode and the ends of the solar system. 

This ain't to say that Health and shield mods need to be buffed. They clearly don't. They're pretty ridiculous actually. You get like 440% increases for a miniscule conclave rating and not too much polarity cost. But look at powers too: damage powers from casters are pretty much useless at high levels. 

 

But weapons? Should they really go where frames can't take you? Probably not. Frames are the lesser of the two evils. 

- Even though you're increasing your hitpoints to crazy levels, you're likely using five or six mods to change the way your powers work . Weapons on the otherhand: you're pretty much using every slot to increase your damage somehow. Part of that is because to have weapons work, you're going to need damage or else you'l be doing 4's against enemies with thousands. 

 

DE

-You simply shouldn't be in a situation where you can't possibly kill a common opponent because of how weak your gun is

- weapon mods shouldn't be just for adding more damage as players are currently conditioned to believe. 

 

 

Really: nerf the damage mods: 

 

Seration/hornet strike

A: Weaken it's damage

B: Make go up in 2's rather than 1's in terms of polarity as you rank 

AB2: Have the mod as it is till rank 5, where it's effectiveness lessens (it does less damage per level or costs go up faster)

C: Five rank system. Get rid of it's top 10 ranks. Give players the option to upgrade it to a dual-stat version of serration /hornet strike of the player's choice on rank 5. 

D:  might be fine as it is, so long as The other changes listed below are used. 

 

Heavy cal

a: Can't use at the same time as serration. An alternative with slightly higher damage, but with even more recoil.

B: Can be used as the same time as serration, but the accuracy penalty is larger and the damage increase smaller. 

 

Elemental/physical mods. 

No more Half-effective melee mods or cheaper-than-everything-else-for-the-same-damage. Then again we've got some strange ones like "cold damage and clip size" and "damage and fire damage" and "shock and channeling efficiency."

- Convert damage. Both with elements and physical damage mods.

- Normal elemental/phyiscal damage mods convert up to 90%

- The normal status chance mod needs a buff. Because of this, the dual stat-elemental mods should be changed

- The event mods (+status chance elements, 120% phyiscal damage) should be changed into either:

A: mods that ADD (rather than convert) up to 30% damage, but only one can be used.

B: Waste some damage for status chance in conversion

C: Ensure status chance will be from one element and not another. 

D: Offer different visual effects to the weapon/alter the status effect of that element.

E: Not form combination elements (so Fire and toxin will be separate and not form gas)  

 

 

Multishot mods. Devide into the following

1- Split a single bullet into many, less powerful pellets

2- Fire multiple bullets at once, or in burst fire, consuming more ammo. 

3- Group pellets together. Slug rounds for shotguns, 

 

 

You could add a lot interest into modding if

Guns were by default less accurate, and accuracy/falloff improving mods existed

Reloading became by default slightly longer. It'd add some extra skill in the game should reloads become more penalizing. 

More special mods. Like +status with chaneling, +slow with a shot. +ragdol. +element on ground slam, +Damage to heavy units

 

 

 

Lots of effort right? Well: It'd solve a good lot of balance issues, so It'd be worth it. 

So stop using a boltor prime homie, and try out a supra in a 40 min survival, bet you won't have that same tune you have now foo.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

TL;DR: Nerf weapons until they can barely be able to take you to 20 minutes in survival, even in Apollodorus.

Yeah, no thanks.

 

I like the OP's suggestions, but there would have to be a lot of changes to make it feasible, so that what you're saying doesn't happen. The appropriateness of our weapon damage is tied to the types of mobs we face. I am of the opinion that we need less mobs that take longer to kill. This would be a Damage 2.0 level change to the game, as drops, ammo, affinity, and other things would have to be changed for it to work.

[weirdee]

multishot all the way back in dark sector used to cost more ammo for the benefit, which also created the drawback of more frequent reloading

 

it was better to just use a damage mod instead

Edited December 12, 2014 by weirdee