If You're Going To Make Legendary Mods A Thing, You're Going About It The Wrong Way.

[Innocent_Flower]

I got two drastically different stories when I saw Prime continuity and Ravager. 

 

Ravager: Simple. 

The original (rare) mod doesn't do much (In regards to the wider backround of mods) So rather than buff the mod (or nerf the objectively better-in-most-cases), you made a bigger version of it. 

 

Continuity; 

The original rare mod was fair, and the prime mod isn't so much more powerful that it causes too much issue. It seems reasonable, and reduces my concerns that there'l be a 15/20 rank legendary serration round the corner

 

But they both have this problem; 

They're just as good as the rare mod for the first five ranks, only more expensive. Those first five ranks are redundant. 

- Why not just make a five rank mod that starts as the other ends? 

- Or, would you really want ranking the mod up to be stupid-expensive, Have the trader Give players the ten rank mod already at rank 5. 
- Or you could make a 5 rank mod that goes up in a cost of 2 per rank, and give it bigger numbers per level than the regular counterpart. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I'm really not happy with them continually adding new mods when they can't keep control of the mods they've already got. I'd rather see things that never get used made useful than see the next shiniest copy of mods that I already use with higher point costs and fusion investments.

 

This is just dumb. I really want the modding system to be a flexible (which it is) and intuitive (which it isn't) system for customization (rather than self-buffing) that allows for drastically different but viable builds. 

 

I'm supremely disappointed that the Void Trader is showing up just offering odds and ends instead of allowing us to exchange greater numbers of prime parts for prime parts we've been grinding for but can't seem to find. They could have used this guy as a major way of reducing complaints about RNG for non-monetized content (stuff that's already past prime access, mods, etc.) but they totally flubbed it. At the very least they could have stuck to a wider variety of trader-specific cosmetics. 

[Tyrian3k]

Giving the player the mod at rank 5 barely has a point to it because it takes 32 times more fusion cores to do the other 5 ranks anyways.

 

Making it a more powerful rank 5 mod seems like a better solution to me. I don't like the mods with 10 ranks much because they take a ludicrous amount of cores to max out.

[Shifted]

-snip-

I agree about the first part. Adding a new, shinier version doesn't fix the issue of a bazillion useless mods.

 

I don't agree about the void trader though. Him offering unique stuff is great. I got rid of stuff that rot in my inventory for a year and now I need to farm more for the next appearance. It's sort of an endgame.

 

If he only sold existing prime parts I wouldn't buy anything from him.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Shifted

[DiabolusUrsus]

I don't agree about the void trader though. Him offering unique stuff is great. I got rid of stuff that rot in my inventory for a year and now I need to farm more for the next appearance. It's sort of an endgame.

 

If he only sold existing prime parts I wouldn't buy anything from him.

 

I think you're missing the point behind what I was saying.

He'd still be good for getting rid of useless prime parts.

He wouldn't only sell prime parts.

 

Prime Parts = Good

Mods in the normal drop pool = Good

Cosmetics = Good

New mods that are just buffed counterparts of existing mods with additional grind = Bad.

 

Wider inventory, caters to broader audiences, fills the same role, doesn't introduce hackneyed additional mods that are obviously part of a system that hasn't been thought through completely.

 

Also, I completely disagree with you that buying and selling on a market can be considered a legitimate end-game. That's ridiculous. It caters to players who are in a position to benefit from an end-game, yes, but don't try to pass it off as one. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I agree about the first part. Adding a new, shinier version doesn't fix the issue of a bazillion useless mods.

 

I don't agree about the void trader though. Him offering unique stuff is great. I got rid of stuff that rot in my inventory for a year and now I need to farm more for the next appearance. It's sort of an endgame.

 

If he only sold existing prime parts I wouldn't buy anything from him.

 

Why does he only have to sell one or the other? Having him sell existing prime parts is really helpful, because now unlucky people will eventually reach a point where they can get the item luck wouldn't give them, while the people who do get what they want feel like they're truly being rewarded.

[Shifted]

-snip-

Well, his inventory is going to be on a rotation, so they may push some stuff in there.

 

I'm not sure how DE feels about adding prime parts in there though. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot financially, as it would no doubt affect plat sales. I personally don't care if it's there or not.

 

I'm fine with how it is now, if you REALLY want something you'll eventually find a way to get it through trading.

 

Also, I completely disagree with you that buying and selling on a market can be considered a legitimate end-game. That's ridiculous. It caters to players who are in a position to benefit from an end-game, yes, but don't try to pass it off as one. 

Now you're misunderstanding me. I meant the endgame being a reason to go to the void: to farm parts and trade them into ducats. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by Shifted

[Tyrian3k]

-snip-

 

I couldn't agree more, especially on the first part. DE constantly adds new stuff, be it mod or weapon, but so many things are completely useless or imbalanced that it's a pain to watch. How many mods out there are about entirely useless? Just look at old physical mods that they didn't fix but instead chose to release better ones that do the same dam thing or the ammo stock and clip size mods that no one ever uses which have been garbage since the beginning of the mod system in U7.

 

How many weapons suffer from the same fate because everyone can get the OP killing toy that most of the players use constantly?

 

While I agree that getting the prime parts you never seem to find would be nice, it would make it even easier for everyone to just go get the Boltor Prime.

 

The fact that the BP is always available makes the flaws of the mastery system shine even more, though, because instead of working your way up in power through the weapons available to you, you just get the best ones in the game as soon as you can and rank up the rest without ever using them for the sole purpose of gaining mastery.

[Eric1738]

actually i dont mind rank 10 mods, but making them legendary mods kinda make me sad. i still can afford them but only barely cant really think how long it will take average players to max them

[Innocent_Flower]

I'm really not happy with them continually adding new mods when they can't keep control of the mods they've already got. I'd rather see things that never get used made useful than see the next shiniest copy of mods that I already use with higher point costs and fusion investments.

 

This is just dumb. I really want the modding system to be a flexible (which it is) and intuitive (which it isn't) system for customization (rather than self-buffing) that allows for drastically different but viable builds.  

I think A large portion of the community (and the people who tried warframe but didn't get into it enough to become a part) Know and want that. It's so glaringly obvious that... DE ignore it. Then again every time I make a thread of ballancing mods so that they're more about customisation than doing damage, I get hate from people who can't understand that DE could balance enemies accordingly so that they don't need to do 6126161 damage per shot on t4 survival.  

 

 

I'm supremely disappointed that the Void Trader is showing up just offering odds and ends instead of allowing us to exchange greater numbers of prime parts for prime parts we've been grinding for but can't seem to find. They could have used this guy as a major way of reducing complaints about RNG for non-monetized content (stuff that's already past prime access, mods, etc.) but they totally flubbed it. At the very least they could have stuck to a wider variety of trader-specific cosmetics. 

(to the part of the post after I put my little bit in. How do you split quotes on these forums?)

You could do this in tons of ways that don't break how we're supposed to go into the endgame for prime content.  

- Release new Prime content/corrupt mods (Soma, Nova) by adding it to the trader. You still need to get spare parts to sell, and you can't just skip content.  

- Stop biasing the RNG so heavily that people ask for part-part trade because they've only got a 1% chance of getting that item every 20 mins of survival. 

-

Edited December 12, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Loswaith]

Part of the issue with rank 10 mods is the mods themselves cause a huge power divide at the point of mods being rank 5-10.  This is where the bigest part of being to hard and being to easy lies. 

Typically speaking I'd say that those that find the game to hard have the 10 rank mods around rank 5 or less and those that say the game is to easy have them around rank 8-10.

 

How they affect weapons is more becuse they are multipliers without adders.  Good weapons/frames get more boost than bads ones making them even better while still leaving the bad ones inferior.

 

All in all the prime mods werent needed and only add to the power creep (continuity, many powers we can already have running infinatly) or prevent actual rebalancing done to the mod that needs it (ravage).

Edited December 13, 2014 by Loswaith

[DiabolusUrsus]

 

Well, his inventory is going to be on a rotation, so they may push some stuff in there.

 

I'm not sure how DE feels about adding prime parts in there though. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot financially, as it would no doubt affect plat sales. I personally don't care if it's there or not.

 

I'm fine with how it is now, if you REALLY want something you'll eventually find a way to get it through trading.

 

 

Now you're misunderstanding me. I meant the endgame being a reason to go to the void: to farm parts and trade them into ducats. 

 

 

1. I understand that his inventory is going to be on a rotation, but that doesn't mean he should be selling five things on every rotation. It could be five or so thing from every category of item. You kinda missed one of the biggest caveats I added to my original statement, though: Prime parts are added to the trader after they come off of Prime Access. DE isn't going to be making any more money directly off of the Boltor Prime. Nor are they going to be making any more direct money off of the Glaive Prime. This is now non-monetized content (excluding people trying to sell hot items for ridiculous amounts of plat on the trade channel) that DE would arguably benefit from making more accessible. Keeping your players happier keeps them more willing to spend plat on stuff that currently is monetized. 

 

If you REALLY want something, you can weather the RNG and get it eventually anyway. Trading is just as much of a random chance as the void drops are, and it's more likely to screw you over value-wise. I'm not saying that trading prime parts for prime parts with the Void trader should be an equal exchange, and there's absolutely no way that addition would affect you unless you're one of those people trying to ream other players on the trade channel because you happened to get a lucky drop.

 

2. Nope. I understood you perfectly. Going into the void and selling prime parts to access a new inventory is something for end-game players to do, I agree. However, it's not an end-game. No. That is a sorrier excuse for an end-game than Dark Sectors currently are, and that's saying something. Yes, it will keep you occupied. Sure, you may be satisfied with that, but the community as a whole damn well shouldn't be. The void is the current end-game content, sure, but there's a reason the forums are frequently clamoring for "end-game" even though it technically already exists. 

[Shifted]

1[...] This is now non-monetized content (excluding people trying to sell hot items for ridiculous amounts of plat on the trade channel) that DE would arguably benefit from making more accessible. Keeping your players happier keeps them more willing to spend plat on stuff that currently is monetized. 

We'll probably never get stats on that, but I still think they'd get more money off players re-upping plat to trade rather than "happy" players buying. Most of the "happy" buyers just buy prime access anyway.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

If you REALLY want something, you can weather the RNG and get it eventually anyway. Trading is just as much of a random chance as the void drops are, and it's more likely to screw you over value-wise. I'm not saying that trading prime parts for prime parts with the Void trader should be an equal exchange, and there's absolutely no way that addition would affect you unless you're one of those people trying to ream other players on the trade channel because you happened to get a lucky drop.

 

 Trading is not as random as you might think. You drop enough plat on the table, you'll get what you want. Just gotta know how to play the market.

Like I said, I'm indifferent about it. Having prime parts be available on void trader would probably cut plat income for sellers, but there are other things you can trade for plat, so it's not a big deal. I just mentioned how I think it affects DE.

2. Nope. I understood you perfectly. Going into the void and selling prime parts to access a new inventory is something for end-game players to do, I agree. However, it's not an end-game. No. That is a sorrier excuse for an end-game than Dark Sectors currently are, and that's saying something. Yes, it will keep you occupied. Sure, you may be satisfied with that, but the community as a whole damn well shouldn't be. The void is the current end-game content, sure, but there's a reason the forums are frequently clamoring for "end-game" even though it technically already exists. 

 

Sorrier excuse than Dark Sectors?

Sorry bro, but that's going too far. Dark sectors offer two things: PvP (which I consider unfitting and terribly executed, so it's out of the question) and farming XP. See, thing is, I'm running out of things (and patience) to level. I have all the frames and most of the weapons leveled, and can't honestly see any reason to increase my mastery any higher.

Meanwhile the void trader offers new, interesting things (the armor set is great IMO) while also giving you a reason to play void (which, at T4, requires use of your best gear).

I'm not saying it's all the endgame we need, and I'm definitely looking forward to new (and expanding existing) endgame systems, but it certainly gave ME a reason to play more. Something different than just "level the next thing".

 

:)

[DiabolusUrsus]

 

We'll probably never get stats on that, but I still think they'd get more money off players re-upping plat to trade rather than "happy" players buying. Most of the "happy" buyers just buy prime access anyway.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

 Trading is not as random as you might think. You drop enough plat on the table, you'll get what you want. Just gotta know how to play the market.

Like I said, I'm indifferent about it. Having prime parts be available on void trader would probably cut plat income for sellers, but there are other things you can trade for plat, so it's not a big deal. I just mentioned how I think it affects DE.

Sorrier excuse than Dark Sectors?

Sorry bro, but that's going too far. Dark sectors offer two things: PvP (which I consider unfitting and terribly executed, so it's out of the question) and farming XP. See, thing is, I'm running out of things (and patience) to level. I have all the frames and most of the weapons leveled, and can't honestly see any reason to increase my mastery any higher.

Meanwhile the void trader offers new, interesting things (the armor set is great IMO) while also giving you a reason to play void (which, at T4, requires use of your best gear).

I'm not saying it's all the endgame we need, and I'm definitely looking forward to new (and expanding existing) endgame systems, but it certainly gave ME a reason to play more. Something different than just "level the next thing".

 

:)

 

 

1. Fair enough.

 

2. Nope. Trading is very largely random at the moment - you have to have the right amount of money or the right item/mod/what-have-you and make your offer at the right time for someone who is interested to both see it and respond to it. I am also vehemently opposed to the idea that you "simply have to be willing to drop enough plat on the table." 

 

3. Are you kidding me? 

First, Dark Sector PVP is confined to Dark Sector Conflicts, which are wholly separate from the Dark Sectors themselves, which are simply nodes with smaller (but permanent and free) affinity and credit boosters attached. It's normal gameplay with quality-of-life conveniences tacked on. The fact that Dark Sectors have lost appeal for you as you approach further veterancy is proof in and of itself that Dark Sectors are not end-game content. End-game is supposed to be what you can do once you've finished everything else, not what you use to get to that point. Thus, Dark Sectors (in their current iteration) are a sorry excuse for an end-game, plain and simple.

 

Second, what you're touting as an acceptable end-game is also more of the same. You're completing the same exhausted process of gathering resources to convert into other commodities by repeating the same missions over and over; you've simply switched from farming credits and affinity to farming prime parts to turn into a different kind of credits, and you're "crafting" cosmetics and new mods, not new weapons. It's just another form of meta-grind, not actual gameplay, and it's not even available consistently, which is why I say that it's an even sorrier excuse for an end-game than Dark Sectors are. 

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to write off the validity of the Void Trader, or his ability to contribute useful things to the game. I'm not trying to say he's pointless or without worth. I'm saying that content that favors veteran players is not necessarily end-game content, and that it is wrong to try to identify it as such. The Void Trader offers a degree of novelty intrigue for now, sure, but so did the Dark Sectors back in the day. Once the novelty effect wears off, Dark Sectors are a good example of where things like this will end up. Derelict, neglected, and ultimately falling short of their potential while newer ideas head towards the same fate. 

[Shifted]

I'm saying that content that favors veteran players is not necessarily end-game content

Makes me wonder what's the definition of end-game content to you.

 

Either way, I believe we derailed the thread enough.

Point of the thread being: the mods void trader is offering.

 

Honestly, I can't see where DE is going with this.

After the ele+status mods (interesting, but too powerful in comparison with existing mods) and then the second round of basic damage types (slash, puncture, impact soon I bet, all just being more powerful versions of existing, underpowered, abandoned mods) now we're getting the "prime" versions.

 

Then what, Prime Serration? Prime Stretch? Prime Intensify?

And then we'll get Super Prime Serration & friends?

And then we'll join a mission, press 4 once and run to extraction because we killed THE ENTIRE MAP with one press of a button.

 

 

The whole mod system looks to me like a giant bag hanging on a thin rope. A bag that's being constantly filled with new stuff. That rope is gonna give.

 

DE needs to rebalance existing mods, not add the same thing with more stats.

[Omnimorph]

I couldn't agree more, especially on the first part. DE constantly adds new stuff, be it mod or weapon, but so many things are completely useless or imbalanced that it's a pain to watch. How many mods out there are about entirely useless? Just look at old physical mods that they didn't fix but instead chose to release better ones that do the same dam thing or the ammo stock and clip size mods that no one ever uses which have been garbage since the beginning of the mod system in U7.

 

How many weapons suffer from the same fate because everyone can get the OP killing toy that most of the players use constantly?

 

While I agree that getting the prime parts you never seem to find would be nice, it would make it even easier for everyone to just go get the Boltor Prime.

 

The fact that the BP is always available makes the flaws of the mastery system shine even more, though, because instead of working your way up in power through the weapons available to you, you just get the best ones in the game as soon as you can and rank up the rest without ever using them for the sole purpose of gaining mastery.

 

I dunno though, is that how most people who play the game play the game?

 

You're looking at it from the perspective of an experienced WF player, but I don't think most players play that way, they just mosey along picking things up as they go, and don't even think about the endgame content where the top 5 weapons are a necessity.  Nor do they even think much about min-maxing at all.

 

I think recently there was a shocking statistic about how few WF players even progress past MR 2 or whatever; years ago, Valve did some datamining that showed most players didn't even finish Half Life 2 (and we all know how successful a game that was).

 

I think there's a tendency for dedicated/hardcore players to see the whole game from that perspective, whereas from the devs' perspectives, they're doing something that caters for all sorts of tastes and requirements, with probably main focus on casual players, because I think most players who play games are casual players - and, they don't come on forums.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Omnimorph

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

 

and +1 DiabolusUrsus

[Tyrian3k]

Players who don't progress past MR2 are the ones that try out the game for a bit and then leave because they don't like it, so it's not exactly surprising that the number is high.

Maybe new players don't get the Boltor Prime, but oftentimes that could be because they simply don't know that they can get it. I've just coke to notice that you'll see a Boltor Prime in just about every session that you play, simply because it's firepower exceeds that of about any other gun out there that still performs well up to mid-range.

Regardless of that, I think it's not a good idea to make one of the best weapons in the game available without restrictions.

Sorry if I may sound a little bitter, but if DE keeps adding grindfest after grindfest when they originally stated that farming isn't supposed to be the end-game, I can't help myself, since it seems like we're about to get legendary rank 10s in bulk from that dealer. Rank 10 mods should in my opinion be the rare exception among mods, not something that you find all over the place.

The new primed mods completely screw around with the balance of the current mods where thw regular one was a minor increase with no penalty or the corrupted one with a penalty. What we get now is essentially a mod that has the bonus of the corrupted mod without a penalty. The Ravage mod on top of that is only a bandaid mod. It's a better version of a mod that I have personally stated multiple times is too weak and needs a buff.

DE has a horrible habit of releasing new stuff with very little attention to fixing old stuff and has recently shown that they'd rather release new mods that are just a better version of old mods instead of just buffing the old mods which I find unacceptable.

New stuff comes at such a fast pace that the balance of just about everything regarding equipment in the game is all over the place.

*sigh* better stop now, or I'll never stop ranting...