Recent Nerfs

[o_HiTMaN_o]

+1 Gorgon Now Sucks !!!

[HarukaTsukiko]

The real-life specification of shotguns are largely irrelevant to what they are in context to Warframe, or any videogame that is not trying to achieve simulation-level realism. In Warframe, balance of weapons is necessary to allow weapons other than shotguns to be desirable depending on the players given playstyle and situation.

 

And, to be completely honest, I do not entirely agree with this current nerf being as destructive as some people seem to believe.

 

I have played several games post-shotgun nerf using both the Hek and the Strun, and not once did I find myself in a position where I was not able to accomplish my task of killing things with said shotguns to great effect. The enormous potential for mobility makes using a shotgun in Warframe a much, much easier task than nearly any other game, as I am able to move into optimal ranges easily and efficiently. And these ranges are NOT so close that I could touch them. The effective shotgun range is still several paces away from targets, but is not so far away that it becomes a one-wonder weapon.

 

Example: Earlier, I was in a position which I jumped down from a grate into a group of 6-7 Grineer. As I was already in optimal range for the use of my shotgun, I was able to dispatch the entire group with minimal effort, afforded to me by the quick killing power of the shotgun combined with the spread allowing for ease of accuracy. Almost immediately after that engagement, several Grineer fired upon me from an elevated platform across a chasm; I found that I was not able to use my shotgun to its optimal effect, and I found other methods of dealing with the situation by switching to my Lex. I either switched to my Lex, or disengaged the enemy completely and moved towards them in order to bring them into my optimal shotgun range. If I had my Braton Vandal in this exact situation, I could have dealt with the Grineer on the distanced platform easily, however my previous engagement with the 6-7 Grineer discovered upon entering the room would not have been nearly as smooth; the Braton Vandal does not have the instantaneous killing power of my Hek, meaning that the enemies would have been alive longer, thus delivered more damage to me, while the close range would make my accurate but narrow line of fire less effective. That, to me, is the essence of Warframe's weapon balancing; every player is capable of using any weapon to match their playstyle, but upon doing so will be met with challenges and consequences attached to their weapon of choice.

 

 

I agree with you that, currently, post-nerf Hek's ability to act as a shotgun is detracted from by its tight spread. However, now it acts like a more precise shotgun; at ranges comparable to other shotguns, proper aim will afford Hek uses a more centralized spread of pellets in vital areas that the Boar and the Strun cannot do. To me, I see that as a balance.

 

Increasing the range on the Hek to rifle-levels without reducing its killing power to rifle-level damage would only server to re-break the weapon and return it back to its original state. The limited clip and reload are not nearly as important as damage and range in this scenario, because shotgun damage and rifle range affords free time between kills that trumps what the limited clip and reload time's normal detriments would provide.

 

 

A large majority of shotgun damage is not from crits, unless you mod for them specifically. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but removing crits would not balance the Hek enough to perform the way it did prior to this nerf. The innate damage and range were too great. The ammo economy was too great. It just wouldn't not be a major detriment or balancing factor. The only way I can see the Hek returning to its original long-distance range would be to reduce it's damage SEVERELY, while perhaps keeping the rest of its original stats. To perhaps even 70 damage for a full pellet spread.

 

If you want rifle-level ranges, it needs comparable rifle-level damage and balances.

 

I never once stated the Hek should return to its orginal range, I was mearly stating the fact it should have the longest range before falloff, atleast double the current range. Which the Strun itself should sit between the Hek and Boar in terms of Falloff. This means the Hek would keep its Mid range power, but lose its rifle range damage as a whole. It woudl be more useful for closing enemies, then once within the same 10 feet of you. And yes I used my own Hek a short time ago, I felt it was vert lack luster and I did the same thing as you in every case. Move into range and take targets down, or switch to my aklato/etc. To tak down longer range targets.

 

I believe everything you said it correct, and this game should never touch the reality of Sim games. But a line must be adressed with the idea of different shotgun types in this game over all. The hek was made for mid range or longer, it should have atleast 20meters of full damage, or it should have a much shallower falloff point. I can understand balancing issues for them in this game, but these changes are very distructive to the game as a whole.

 

Personally Do I believe the Hek should have rifle range, of course not. But should it be limited to shotgun range, not at all.

The current range of the shotguns is perfect for the Boar, and is servicable for the Strun. But again the strun was never made for pure close range, its close-mid, just like how the Hek is made for Mid-long.

 

But in terms of reality and balencing for the game, I believe the current range is perfect for the Boar along.

But for the Strun the range should be upped by atleast 50%, the spread at higher ranges would balence the gun natrually.

And finally for the Hek, the range should be doubled, with a longer falloff then other shotguns, which would give it power at mid range, but make it over all weaker for anything that passes into rifle range.

[ShimmerDoll]

There are many topics saying the exact same thing. Using more words does not make your argument any different.

 

I don't care much for HEK or Gorgon, they were never all that good. But apparently they were the most used weapons, so DE tried their best to make them be a bit less appealing. Did they choose the best way to do that? Who knows.

This doesn't even make sense! Why would they want to make content in the game less appealing? It's a game versus AI! If anything they should look at those to guns as the standard for what people find FUN (this is the main reason for playing any freaking game), and try to figure out why the rest of the guns are D students and then buff them up! Not to mention these are rank 3 and 4 guns you have to work towards. What they did by nerfing those guns was show that buying anything on the market is throwing away good money, because it'll just be nerfed in the future. It's a pretty bad philosophy. You know shrinking the amount of content that is good down to a couple things being good. I played UT/UT2004, Quake 3 and a few other games professionally and competitively and everyone used every gun available that they could pick up.

 

The sad part is I bought two friends the big founders packs, one recently, but now both left after the nerfs and being frustrated, as we've all seen this behavior from devs in so many games, and myself haven't played since that patch was released. 

 

Hopefully this is just an oversight.The Hek is trash now, if that's what they wanted, that's a great use of resources! The Gorgon is pretty much a joke too. It wasn't perfect before, now it's just useless.

Edited April 29, 2013 by BloodDoll

[.-Tenno-.]

I was asked to edit the original post with a disclaimer.

 

 

Edit:

Disclaimer:

      The Ranges of real world guns in this post were not meant to be a staging point from which ranges should be based, rather just a means for discussion to be formed from to be based on logic, and hard numbers. Rather then random ideas. Personally the writer of this post HarukaTsukiko believes the best over all ranges for the shotguns to be within 40-50 meters for warframe. In which the Boar would stay at the current Nerf of 10 meters, the Strun would be pushed up to full damage 15 or 20 meters with falloff range being 5 meters after its full damage edge. And finally the Hek with a range of full damage 30 meters, with falloff range of 10 meters after its full damage edge.

[.-Tenno-.]

This doesn't even make sense! Why would they want to make content in the game less appealing? It's a game versus AI! If anything they should look at those to guns as the standard for what people find FUN (this is the main reason for playing any freaking game), and try to figure out why the rest of the guns are D students and then buff them up! Not to mention these are rank 3 and 4 guns you have to work towards. What they did by nerfing those guns was show that buying anything on the market is throwing away good money, because it'll just be nerfed in the future. It's a pretty bad philosophy. You know shrinking the amount of content that is good down to a couple things being good. I played UT/UT2004, Quake 3 and a few other games professionally and competitively and everyone used every gun available that they could pick up.

 

The sad part is I bought two friends the big founders packs, one recently, but now both left after the nerfs and being frustrated, as we've all seen this behavior from devs in so many games, and myself haven't played since that patch was released. 

 

Hopefully this is just an oversight.The Hek is trash now, if that's what they wanted, that's a great use of resources! The Gorgon is pretty much a joke too. It wasn't perfect before, now it's just useless.

 

 

I understand your frustration but getting angry in a conversation wont solve anything.  Calm down and try to bring your points across with less.....anger.   Thanks.

[AleXMahon-47]

+1 I spent all this Time to get HEK And in same day  I Got It Its nerfed Lol.

 

I hope Devs Look forward the HEK And Gorgon And make the hek Better At Mid-Range

 

Like On mid-range Full damage after Mid-range The damage goes less , I Think now the damage goes down after Close-Range Wich is so unfair to HEK.

 

Hope Devs Reconsider And Dont ruin our fun.

Edited April 29, 2013 by AleXMahon-47

[GTG3000]

So... Anyone for letting hek keep it's prior range with limited damage falloff?

This thread is bursting with good points for balancing the hek, although I am not completely sold on slowing down it's shooting speed. It's a shotgun with four barrels, it shouldn't have problems with shoting relatively quickly. I agree with increacing the reload time though. 

As much as I understand the balancing side of the issue, letting Hek keep it's long range is important for the game to establish a unique feeling. The damage falloff is fitting to it, but it should be limited compared to what we have now. To delivering down to half the damage if the target is more than 50 meters away maybe? Removing it's ability to hit weakspots at some range? As a gesture of uniqueness, make it consume more ammo in one shot?

But the range has to return. Hek was unique, fresh and new. And, broken as it admittedly was,  buck rifle is a good, good idea, and I would like to think of DE as of people, who would go the length to balance that concept rather than removing it alltogether.

 

As for gorgon, the first shot sniping is a good thing as well, unless it can be abused like it was. My suggestion would be to add a spooldown time, that would essentially be two timers, one acting as "you can still shoot and keep the speed", and another as "Sorry, you have to wait this much until you can shoot again".

 

Either way, that is a very good point you are making.

[Hatr]

 

 

As for gorgon, the first shot sniping is a good thing as well, unless it can be abused like it was. My suggestion would be to add a spooldown time, that would essentially be two timers, one acting as "you can still shoot and keep the speed", and another as "Sorry, you have to wait this much until you can shoot again".

 

 

Hmm, you want to say.. a delay betwen spin-ups? i mean.. "Click pause 2 sec, Click pause 2 sec, Click-shooooot, Click pause 2 sec"

I guess reverting the gorgon to normal, but adding that pause betwen shoots won't let you use it like a latron -> braton

but ammo capacity should be increased to 600? because players will use more ammo because of the delay, you get what i mean

[GTG3000]

Hmm, you want to say.. a delay betwen spin-ups? i mean.. "Click pause 2 sec, Click pause 2 sec, Click-shooooot, Click pause 2 sec"

I guess reverting the gorgon to normal, but adding that pause betwen shoots won't let you use it like a latron -> braton

but ammo capacity should be increased to 600? because players will use more ammo because of the delay, you get what i mean

 

Yeah, that's what I mean. They already gave us the possibility to let it spin down a bit but not stop, and I suggest that it will require a delay after that spin down is off... So, either you use it like a really slow latron, or you have to deal with the automatic accuracy. And having it slowl you down as it gains stability as OP suggests would be good, too...

And, maybe increacing the ammo pool would be a good thing, if it's ment to be shot almost constantly. Otherwise, it can be a niche 'firing position' gun, that requires you to think where to shoot from and such.

Edited April 29, 2013 by GTG3000

[Brainwright]

Before these nerfs, the weapons were functioning much as they would in real life.

 

Shotguns have always been more effective at longer ranges than most games make them.  The recent nerf is like the changes for the shotgun from Halo 1 to Halo 2.   In the first, it was pretty much the most effective weapon at anything but extreme range.  In the second, you could only hurt anything by getting directly in its face.

 

Guess what, at most ranges where combat takes place in a game, a shotgun is superior.

 

And machine guns are supposed to dominate long ranges.   That's the point.  You fire more bullets to gaurantee more hits.

 

 

All these nerfs just make the weapons a pain to use.  Everything else hits what you shoot it at, and now these weapons lie in the pits of random nonsense.

 

I can't really see it as reasonable, and I can't think this sort of nerfing won't be used again in the future.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

+1.

 

We have to remember this is the future!  As in, "we have the technology..."

 

There's no reason for a weapon that you can only obtain after you reach Rank 4 to feel so underwhelming.

 

I found myself preferring my strun over the hek yesterday while playing, because it still had the spread like a shotgun.  The Hek is both weak and has a tight cone (which it was designed for) but there's a serious problem when a maxed Lato is more powerful than a Hek.  (DE please don't nerf the Lato too.)

Edited April 29, 2013 by sushidubya

[ValhaHazred]

But in terms of reality and balencing for the game, I believe the current range is perfect for the Boar along.

But for the Strun the range should be upped by atleast 50%, the spread at higher ranges would balence the gun natrually.

And finally for the Hek, the range should be doubled, with a longer falloff then other shotguns, which would give it power at mid range, but make it over all weaker for anything that passes into rifle range.

This sounds like a perfect compromise to me. Good thinking!

[HarukaTsukiko]

Before these nerfs, the weapons were functioning much as they would in real life.

 

Shotguns have always been more effective at longer ranges than most games make them.  The recent nerf is like the changes for the shotgun from Halo 1 to Halo 2.   In the first, it was pretty much the most effective weapon at anything but extreme range.  In the second, you could only hurt anything by getting directly in its face.

 

Guess what, at most ranges where combat takes place in a game, a shotgun is superior.

 

And machine guns are supposed to dominate long ranges.   That's the point.  You fire more bullets to gaurantee more hits.

 

 

All these nerfs just make the weapons a pain to use.  Everything else hits what you shoot it at, and now these weapons lie in the pits of random nonsense.

 

I can't really see it as reasonable, and I can't think this sort of nerfing won't be used again in the future.

 

Yes you do make a very good point, as in reality shotguns are extremely powerful, and with the right shell type, in the correct setup can go deep into normal "rifle" range turning the shotgun from a normal idea of "extreme power at close range" to pump action rifle. The type I am talking about are Slugs, massive soild rounds made to max impact force on a single point, and longer range normally. But now ere getting alittle off topic here, they use buckshot in WF and that does cause a few issues.

 

The largest is again balence, you can't have a single "perfect" weapon. Which the Hek was, and still to those that don't mind a fast frame with max rush, or a volt can push to deadly standards. However The Hek was very VERY much op before, even in terms of pushing past wave 50 def, yes it was the only weapon that was good at those levels, however it can't be the only good weapon. This isn't real life, this is a game, and devs, design teams, and most people that play a game, expect balance.

 

But the simple truth is, the shotguns were fine before. People that normally complained were those that refuesed to use them, couldn't get them, or in the case of the Hek. Had yet to earn the right to use the mother of all shotguns in this game. However this isn't a good point, it pushed the Hek to the point where it would have become the perfect gun eventually. And this is the point where the line has to be drawn. And simply put we can't have a single perfect gun, just like how there isn't a single perfect frame. The Hek had no weaknesses, besides a small clip and long reload time, but that wasn't enough to balence it out over all.

 

Yes the idea of falloff is needed for shotguns, no matter how much we all hate it, even those that don't use the guns. It did need to happen, but it was not handled in the best way possible, again I may sound liek a broken record here. But Nerfs should always be Proactive, which would have shaped the shotguns and Gorgon into better, stronger forms. Sadly we can only hope at this point that DE will listen to the gamers, and let us help them fix this.

[gamefreak9149]

I'll up vote this, its a good read.

[Argoms]

But the simple truth is, the shotguns were fine before. People that normally complained were those that refuesed to use them, couldn't get them, or in the case of the Hek. Had yet to earn the right to use the mother of all shotguns in this game. However this isn't a good point, it pushed the Hek to the point where it would have become the perfect gun eventually. And this is the point where the line has to be drawn. And simply put we can't have a single perfect gun, just like how there isn't a single perfect frame. The Hek had no weaknesses, besides a small clip and long reload time, but that wasn't enough to balence it out over all.

 

I'm a bit confused on what you're saying here. "But the simple truth is, the shotguns were fine before" but if you just admitted that the hek dominated everything, how was it fine? Also, from what I saw, practically everyone who did use the hek jokingly referred to it as overpowered, few people didn't think that it wasn't ridiculous.

[GTG3000]

I'm a bit confused on what you're saying here. "But the simple truth is, the shotguns were fine before" but if you just admitted that the hek dominated everything, how was it fine? Also, from what I saw, practically everyone who did use the hek jokingly referred to it as overpowered, few people didn't think that it wasn't ridiculous.

 

He means that, from a broad point of view, shotguns were fine. I'd say that it's the question of the baseline to choose with the balance, and hek would have set it too high as it was. Shotguns as a whole were just how they should be mechanics-wise, but there were tweaks needed.

[Steemship]

Yes. That is all.

 

Although (teehee), I have to disagree with some of the ideas regarding the Hek and modding. I can agree with the limited magazine size because the gun only has four bloody barrels (It'd be like having 2 arrows loaded in to the Paris at once...no Legoless action here), but the gun needs modding to not be out classed by other weapons.

 

As it currently stands, my hek just got done building when the patch launched. And I simply can not use it now; it's more effective to use my sword.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I never once stated the Hek should return to its orginal range, I was mearly stating the fact it should have the longest range before falloff, atleast double the current range. Which the Strun itself should sit between the Hek and Boar in terms of Falloff. This means the Hek would keep its Mid range power, but lose its rifle range damage as a whole. It woudl be more useful for closing enemies, then once within the same 10 feet of you. And yes I used my own Hek a short time ago, I felt it was vert lack luster and I did the same thing as you in every case. Move into range and take targets down, or switch to my aklato/etc. To tak down longer range targets.

 

I'm not against increasing the optimal range of the Hek slightly to facilitate its tighter spread. However, 20 in-game meters is comparably just too much. I would say that a good 80% of encounters in Warframe happen at 20m and less; giving Hek an optimal range of 20 in-game meters without large detrimental changes to its base stats would only serve to return it to what it was previously.

 

15m would be the highest I would personally prefer. Even that is pushing the balancing of the weapon; remember that very little actually changed about the Hek's killing ability and ammo economy.

 

I believe everything you said it correct, and this game should never touch the reality of Sim games. But a line must be adressed with the idea of different shotgun types in this game over all. The hek was made for mid range or longer, it should have atleast 20meters of full damage, or it should have a much shallower falloff point. I can understand balancing issues for them in this game, but these changes are very distructive to the game as a whole.

 

I'll just go ahead and say it: DE made a huge mistake, introducing the Hek, a weapon that delivers upfront shotgun damage at and often beyond rifle ranges. The whole concept of the Hek is ridiculously unbalanced, and the cons to the Hek were nowhere near enough. But because they released it, people have grown accustomed to using the broken weapon and now we have a forced standard being set by it.

 

20m is where an overwhelming majority of fights in Warframe happen, and it's a fairly long distance in terms of the in-game distances (because Warframes meter system is very, very off). Having the Hek be effective at that range would essentially be bringing it back prior to the shotgun nerf.

 

Personally Do I believe the Hek should have rifle range, of course not. But should it be limited to shotgun range, not at all.

The current range of the shotguns is perfect for the Boar, and is servicable for the Strun. But again the strun was never made for pure close range, its close-mid, just like how the Hek is made for Mid-long.

 

Again, the concept of a mid to long range shotgun with shotgun damage and shotgun delivery, is a huge folly from a balance standpoint for the several reasons I've already stated.

 

It would need its damage per shell to become comparable to rifle damage, not shotgun damage.

 

But in terms of reality and balencing for the game, I believe the current range is perfect for the Boar along.

But for the Strun the range should be upped by atleast 50%, the spread at higher ranges would balence the gun natrually.

And finally for the Hek, the range should be doubled, with a longer falloff then other shotguns, which would give it power at mid range, but make it over all weaker for anything that passes into rifle range.

 

I just do not see how it can happen like this without breaking the Hek again.

[Brainwright]

To all those who state that these nerfs were needed, that each weapon needed a niche, I have to ask whether you realize how the nerf changed things.

 

The game seems designed around a 20m engagement range. The ranges where shotguns and the gorgon are effective now are the ones where it grows too cumbersome to swing a gun around for an enemy of average speed, and melee weapons dominate.

 

If you ask me, the good fix for the shotguns and the gorgon doesn't lie in nerfing those two weapons, it's in making the other weapons sensible.  Give sniper rifles extra damage for shots to the vitals.  Give all automatic rifles real automatic fire (afterall, an automatic rifle that fires fast enough is no different from a shotgun) and balance them with long reload times.  Longer reload times make them less effective at close range, thus giving shotguns a niche all their own.

 

Then sniper weapons become a precision-marksman's weapon and the automatic rifles become a long-range shotgun.  Everyone wins.

[HarukaTsukiko]

I'm not against increasing the optimal range of the Hek slightly to facilitate its tighter spread. However, 20 in-game meters is comparably just too much. I would say that a good 80% of encounters in Warframe happen at 20m and less; giving Hek an optimal range of 20 in-game meters without large detrimental changes to its base stats would only serve to return it to what it was previously.

 

15m would be the highest I would personally prefer. Even that is pushing the balancing of the weapon; remember that very little actually changed about the Hek's killing ability and ammo economy.

 

 

I'll just go ahead and say it: DE made a huge mistake, introducing the Hek, a weapon that delivers upfront shotgun damage at and often beyond rifle ranges. The whole concept of the Hek is ridiculously unbalanced, and the cons to the Hek were nowhere near enough. But because they released it, people have grown accustomed to using the broken weapon and now we have a forced standard being set by it.

 

20m is where an overwhelming majority of fights in Warframe happen, and it's a fairly long distance in terms of the in-game distances (because Warframes meter system is very, very off). Having the Hek be effective at that range would essentially be bringing it back prior to the shotgun nerf.

 

 

Again, the concept of a mid to long range shotgun with shotgun damage and shotgun delivery, is a huge folly from a balance standpoint for the several reasons I've already stated.

 

It would need its damage per shell to become comparable to rifle damage, not shotgun damage.

 

 

I just do not see how it can happen like this without breaking the Hek again.

 

The Hek is not a broken conscept however, it is a very soildly made military grade super full choke shotgun. And a super full choke shotgun is meant to lay down long range suppresive, and destrustive fire. The Hek was made around the idea of being a high powered killing mechine, that even within its discription screams it is built for mid range combat, it will never be balenced inline with rifles, and it shouldn't be. The Hek is a buckshot rifle, it suffers from long reloads, and very small clips and is only truely deadly at mid range and longer due to a tight spread which is what makes it so amazing. There may me no way to balence the Hek inline with rifles at all. Rifles I may add are acc enough to snipe targets in this game, by putting rounds down range in a tight enough spread that roughly 70% of them hit the target in full auto, or through burst fire. Simply put. it won't happen.

 

And the next quote expains perfectly why.

 

To all those who state that these nerfs were needed, that each weapon needed a niche, I have to ask whether you realize how the nerf changed things.

 

The game seems designed around a 20m engagement range. The ranges where shotguns and the gorgon are effective now are the ones where it grows too cumbersome to swing a gun around for an enemy of average speed, and melee weapons dominate.

 

If you ask me, the good fix for the shotguns and the gorgon doesn't lie in nerfing those two weapons, it's in making the other weapons sensible.  Give sniper rifles extra damage for shots to the vitals.  Give all automatic rifles real automatic fire (afterall, an automatic rifle that fires fast enough is no different from a shotgun) and balance them with long reload times.  Longer reload times make them less effective at close range, thus giving shotguns a niche all their own.

 

Then sniper weapons become a precision-marksman's weapon and the automatic rifles become a long-range shotgun.  Everyone wins.

 

Back when the bratons did an upwards of I believe 18 damage a shot, they were inline with the hek, the braton vandel itself did like 21 damage a shot, which mirrors the single pellet damage from the Hek extremely well. Back before those guns were nurfed a Braton user could down 6-8 targets on a single clip, if they modded correctly and have a fairly quick reload. A clip size and reload speed that would puch a Hek user to use smart reloading times to keep their dps up. Now I understand DE is trying to get all the weapons in a line, so their "all good" but the reality of the matter is simple. They won't all be good. There will always be a gun people like over the rest, there will always be a sword or Melee people like over the rest, there will always be a sidearm people like over the rest.

 

And the reasons can range from higher damage output, to lethalty at range, to simple personal choice. What gun did I use all the time myself, a simple normal Braton, as I never got the vandel (sadly), its tight spread, rapid fire, good damage, and healthy clip size allowed me to work the gun every well. And know what At the same time I have an old lvl 25 potatoed Gorgon, which I bearly ever use. Not cause it isn't stronger then my braton, no, its not that fact I cause use the first shot to snipe, simply put, its long reload time, and cycle up time into fullauto and shockingly high spread for its firing turned me off the gun as a whole. After all I used it like a suppressive fire heavy mechine gun, normally for first strike, or mop up work. And then I finally got the Hek, and yes I will admit I called it OP myself laughingly, cause it was just fun to use.

 

The first time I used it even, completely unmodded, it felt like my braton on riods and I loved it. I was wearing a grin and laughing when I just blew targets apart with a few firings, but when it was just starting out it felt lack luster. After a few levels, and me getting both a damage+ mod, and a lvl 3 multishot on it, it quickly amped up in damage that I knew it was better then my Braton, the little rifle that could gun down a pluto heavy gunner in a single clip due to heavy modding. Then I finally made the push to get my Hek up to 30, atleast two weeks before its nerf, using it never stopped to being a grin to my face, to see targets I would normally trade fire with go down in just seconds. I even had clan members using their own Heks with me, which modded theirs in different ways, and I just blew them out of the water with a pure damage setup. And we all called them op still, and laughed about it in voice chat. We had great fun times with these guns, before the Nerf.

 

In the end the point is simple, should Shotguns work like that again, should they be comically deadly at all ranges, to the point your laughing just cause how easy the game gets when you have ammo in the tubes. Yes it should, and it would undermine all the other guns completely. But this is the reality of WF, a super futuristic game, that has nerfed a set of 4 guns into the tresh, and nerfed all its other weapons to be pulled under by the greatness of a few. The issues with Nerfs started Weeks ago, when DE started on the path to killing off all their rifles cause before they were "OP", which caused the shotguns to become "OP", and the gorgon a gun that was always ont he edge of being "OP" was pushed into the trashcan.

 

And I'm sorry if I seem annoyed or angry in this post, but I am not. I am just passionate about my gaming, and would like to see Warframe live up to not only the Devs, but to the players as well. In the end, it is our words that changed things to this point, From complaints, to construtive topics like this one, or even topics based purely on a gamer being angry their main weapon is now broken, and countless others. IT IS US, those who are willing to come up with ideas that can hopefully make everything work out, and get the attention of the Devs that change things for the better.

 

But I have a question for you all, everyone that views this post, before the shotgun and gorgon Nerfs, what were the largest topics on the forums. They were all Topics about how OP the Hek and Gorgon were. And before them, The main topics were about how OP the rifles and a few other guns were. And what got changed through those massive topics, all those guns. The recent Nerf's aren't the true issue in WF, nor is it a true failure on DE. They are just following the community at this point, doing what we keep asking them to do. And rather then Profactive nerfs happening that make all the guns stronger and better in one way or another, this as turned into a cascade of Nerfs which is slowly crippling the current community "Gun issue".

 

And my second question is this. The Lex, Aklato, Lato, Lato Vandel, are all currently more deadly then any rifle, shotgun, or gorgon in the game, even the Kraken is stronger then them, should these side arms that were already nerfed once, be nerfed again to be "Inline" witht he rest of the now broken weapons. Nerfs that would "break" in the words of MoonicusMaximus other guns, causing more community outcry in the form of "The nerfs suck" topics, or "This gun is op now" topics. And another cascade of Nerfs would once again go out trying to "FIX" things. This is the current edge of the Development, and it is a rough one indeed, where different means to trying to balence things are going out endlessly, and with every patch more things are being nerfed and buffed, trying to get a line in which all the guns int he game are "good" and "equal". But at one point someone has to say, WAKE UP. Not all the guns in the game are going to be good, some may be complete and utter crap, or such things will be more of options from person to person. And I can give an example of both.

 

The Braton Mk-1 is outright a weaker, starter ver of the normal Braton. Its an outright pure upgrade from one to the other. And the Boltor is an outright better gun then the Braton, but it has a few weaknesses to adress when you switch over to it. And then you have guns like the Lex and the Lato. Which is better, their both balenced to eachother, even the Lex to Aklato the ideas are completely balenced. One has high damage, limited clip, and slow firing speed but high acc. The other has lower damage, fast firing speed, sizable clip, and enough acc to work in some longrange use. Which one is better is based on personal pref.

 

Now I had gotten alittle off topic, within my own topic. But in reality more then just the shotguns and gorogn, need to be adressed by DE. The past nerf to all the rifles and a fair number of sidearms, pushed the Hek from just being Good, to being outright OP. Because even back then nothing touched its pure damage output, other weapons however, even a Boltor or braton, could compeat with the Hek in a DPS race

 

I also know people are going to again see that I as becoming mad, or angry about the nerfs in this post. But I'm am at most annoyed by them, I am just passionate about this game, like anyone else here. We want this game to work and be good, we want it to succeed. So if I seem mean, angry, or even annoyed in this post. It's not about my anger, its not even purely about my personal options or feelings on each weapon. It's about where things are heading, and how the future of Warframe is looking more and more grim by the recent changes. Cause at the end of the day, gamers, all of us, it doesn't matter if you think you are a god in a game, or just a mission runner, a PVP king to a random ganking PKer. We have all seen the start of cascading Nerfs in countless MMOs, and it normally ends with huge destrutive nerfs, that leave the player base broken on which side they should be on, and everyone dissatisfied with the game over all. And that is what we need to stop from happening, we the players need to tell DE to STOP, and take a good look at were they are heading, and even were we as players are making them head.

 

again, I am sorry if I seemed alittle raged in this post, but let us continue with cooler heads, and hopefully build ideas that will make the game better, rather then just saying "This doesn't work its too strong", "this gun is broken nerf/buff it" and other such things. In the end the issues we are currently facing are the start of a cascading Nerf to everything in the game, cause both we the community are trying to balence things, and DE is doing their best to answer our cry to arms regarding them.

[Loswaith]

Yes, you could laugh at how easy things died (because its occasionally fun to be overpowered), but many people also complained about how easy the game is.  DE have to balance challenge and fun for newish and fully moded weapons.

 

That said often balancing is often done by doing large changes so you can actually see a difference, then place it between the two points more accurately.  With a minor change you may never see any effective result, this may or may not be the way DE have it planned, meaning a buff maybe in their future to the actual damage levels they want them to be in.

 

Having the Hek moved from everyone using it to hardly anyone is telling DE allot.

 

One thing that the buckshot/pellet type shotguns fail to take into account is armour, armour is very effective against shotguns doing lethal damage (the grenier hardened armour should make them simply LOL at a pellet based shortgun).

 

I personally felt the strun and boar seemed to fit their role well while still making other options a good viable thing to use (its unfortunate they got hit in the process).

[Amistyrja]

Skipping the discussion to comment on the opening post...

 

 

THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL I almost cried T____________T

 

idk about you guys but I like my shotguns big, long-barreled and hard-hitting =)

[GTG3000]

The Hek is not a broken conscept however, it is a very soildly made military grade super full choke shotgun. And a super full choke shotgun is meant to lay down long range suppresive, and destrustive fire. The Hek was made around the idea of being a high powered killing mechine, that even within its discription screams it is built for mid range combat, it will never be balenced inline with rifles, and it shouldn't be. The Hek is a buckshot rifle, it suffers from long reloads, and very small clips and is only truely deadly at mid range and longer due to a tight spread which is what makes it so amazing. There may me no way to balence the Hek inline with rifles at all. Rifles I may add are acc enough to snipe targets in this game, by putting rounds down range in a tight enough spread that roughly 70% of them hit the target in full auto, or through burst fire. Simply put. it won't happen.

 

And the next quote expains perfectly why.

 

 

Back when the bratons did an upwards of I believe 18 damage a shot, they were inline with the hek, the braton vandel itself did like 21 damage a shot, which mirrors the single pellet damage from the Hek extremely well. Back before those guns were nurfed a Braton user could down 6-8 targets on a single clip, if they modded correctly and have a fairly quick reload. A clip size and reload speed that would puch a Hek user to use smart reloading times to keep their dps up. Now I understand DE is trying to get all the weapons in a line, so their "all good" but the reality of the matter is simple. They won't all be good. There will always be a gun people like over the rest, there will always be a sword or Melee people like over the rest, there will always be a sidearm people like over the rest.

 

And the reasons can range from higher damage output, to lethalty at range, to simple personal choice. What gun did I use all the time myself, a simple normal Braton, as I never got the vandel (sadly), its tight spread, rapid fire, good damage, and healthy clip size allowed me to work the gun every well. And know what At the same time I have an old lvl 25 potatoed Gorgon, which I bearly ever use. Not cause it isn't stronger then my braton, no, its not that fact I cause use the first shot to snipe, simply put, its long reload time, and cycle up time into fullauto and shockingly high spread for its firing turned me off the gun as a whole. After all I used it like a suppressive fire heavy mechine gun, normally for first strike, or mop up work. And then I finally got the Hek, and yes I will admit I called it OP myself laughingly, cause it was just fun to use.

 

The first time I used it even, completely unmodded, it felt like my braton on riods and I loved it. I was wearing a grin and laughing when I just blew targets apart with a few firings, but when it was just starting out it felt lack luster. After a few levels, and me getting both a damage+ mod, and a lvl 3 multishot on it, it quickly amped up in damage that I knew it was better then my Braton, the little rifle that could gun down a pluto heavy gunner in a single clip due to heavy modding. Then I finally made the push to get my Hek up to 30, atleast two weeks before its nerf, using it never stopped to being a grin to my face, to see targets I would normally trade fire with go down in just seconds. I even had clan members using their own Heks with me, which modded theirs in different ways, and I just blew them out of the water with a pure damage setup. And we all called them op still, and laughed about it in voice chat. We had great fun times with these guns, before the Nerf.

 

In the end the point is simple, should Shotguns work like that again, should they be comically deadly at all ranges, to the point your laughing just cause how easy the game gets when you have ammo in the tubes. Yes it should, and it would undermine all the other guns completely. But this is the reality of WF, a super futuristic game, that has nerfed a set of 4 guns into the tresh, and nerfed all its other weapons to be pulled under by the greatness of a few. The issues with Nerfs started Weeks ago, when DE started on the path to killing off all their rifles cause before they were "OP", which caused the shotguns to become "OP", and the gorgon a gun that was always ont he edge of being "OP" was pushed into the trashcan.

 

And I'm sorry if I seem annoyed or angry in this post, but I am not. I am just passionate about my gaming, and would like to see Warframe live up to not only the Devs, but to the players as well. In the end, it is our words that changed things to this point, From complaints, to construtive topics like this one, or even topics based purely on a gamer being angry their main weapon is now broken, and countless others. IT IS US, those who are willing to come up with ideas that can hopefully make everything work out, and get the attention of the Devs that change things for the better.

 

But I have a question for you all, everyone that views this post, before the shotgun and gorgon Nerfs, what were the largest topics on the forums. They were all Topics about how OP the Hek and Gorgon were. And before them, The main topics were about how OP the rifles and a few other guns were. And what got changed through those massive topics, all those guns. The recent Nerf's aren't the true issue in WF, nor is it a true failure on DE. They are just following the community at this point, doing what we keep asking them to do. And rather then Profactive nerfs happening that make all the guns stronger and better in one way or another, this as turned into a cascade of Nerfs which is slowly crippling the current community "Gun issue".

 

And my second question is this. The Lex, Aklato, Lato, Lato Vandel, are all currently more deadly then any rifle, shotgun, or gorgon in the game, even the Kraken is stronger then them, should these side arms that were already nerfed once, be nerfed again to be "Inline" witht he rest of the now broken weapons. Nerfs that would "break" in the words of MoonicusMaximus other guns, causing more community outcry in the form of "The nerfs suck" topics, or "This gun is op now" topics. And another cascade of Nerfs would once again go out trying to "FIX" things. This is the current edge of the Development, and it is a rough one indeed, where different means to trying to balence things are going out endlessly, and with every patch more things are being nerfed and buffed, trying to get a line in which all the guns int he game are "good" and "equal". But at one point someone has to say, WAKE UP. Not all the guns in the game are going to be good, some may be complete and utter crap, or such things will be more of options from person to person. And I can give an example of both.

 

The Braton Mk-1 is outright a weaker, starter ver of the normal Braton. Its an outright pure upgrade from one to the other. And the Boltor is an outright better gun then the Braton, but it has a few weaknesses to adress when you switch over to it. And then you have guns like the Lex and the Lato. Which is better, their both balenced to eachother, even the Lex to Aklato the ideas are completely balenced. One has high damage, limited clip, and slow firing speed but high acc. The other has lower damage, fast firing speed, sizable clip, and enough acc to work in some longrange use. Which one is better is based on personal pref.

 

Now I had gotten alittle off topic, within my own topic. But in reality more then just the shotguns and gorogn, need to be adressed by DE. The past nerf to all the rifles and a fair number of sidearms, pushed the Hek from just being Good, to being outright OP. Because even back then nothing touched its pure damage output, other weapons however, even a Boltor or braton, could compeat with the Hek in a DPS race

 

I also know people are going to again see that I as becoming mad, or angry about the nerfs in this post. But I'm am at most annoyed by them, I am just passionate about this game, like anyone else here. We want this game to work and be good, we want it to succeed. So if I seem mean, angry, or even annoyed in this post. It's not about my anger, its not even purely about my personal options or feelings on each weapon. It's about where things are heading, and how the future of Warframe is looking more and more grim by the recent changes. Cause at the end of the day, gamers, all of us, it doesn't matter if you think you are a god in a game, or just a mission runner, a PVP king to a random ganking PKer. We have all seen the start of cascading Nerfs in countless MMOs, and it normally ends with huge destrutive nerfs, that leave the player base broken on which side they should be on, and everyone dissatisfied with the game over all. And that is what we need to stop from happening, we the players need to tell DE to STOP, and take a good look at were they are heading, and even were we as players are making them head.

 

again, I am sorry if I seemed alittle raged in this post, but let us continue with cooler heads, and hopefully build ideas that will make the game better, rather then just saying "This doesn't work its too strong", "this gun is broken nerf/buff it" and other such things. In the end the issues we are currently facing are the start of a cascading Nerf to everything in the game, cause both we the community are trying to balence things, and DE is doing their best to answer our cry to arms regarding them.

 

This. If what you said is right, then the devs seem not to even have some idea of a baseline. Or they blindly listen to community instead of spending time looking around the issue... Either way is very bad for the game, when maps are made for 100+meter ranges, and then all the guns are nerfed as if they didn't talk about it. I know it will sound bad, but everything you said is pretty obvious to me, to the point of a gut feeling... DE didn't develop anything MMO and constantly in development before, did they?

 

Personally I would say that weapons currently require 'weapon as util' mechanic to them, with shotguns having stagger and knockback against atmour and rifles actually supressing all those mindless mobs.

Edited April 30, 2013 by GTG3000

[Kattefjaes]

Yeah, even though im not a big fan of shotguns, i cant help but feel bad for people who have spent time and effort into their favourite primaries and have them completely destroyed in a single update. Sure the devs are trying to balance out the weapons, and i appreciate that, but i still dont think that they have thought everything through before they implemented the update.

 

+1

 

Yep, Hek is the most heavily XP-gated equipment in the game, by the time you've reached that mastery rank, you're probably looking for something ludicrous to kill lots of high level targets fast. It makes absolutely no sense that it be "balanced" against the entry level weapons, really. If you're tall enough to ride, your main concern is no longer going to be taking down crewmen around Venus and Mars.

 

It no longer performs as per its description, so people who levelled that far to get it, buying plat for slots along the way perhaps, and who potatoed this weapon.. well, they've a right to facepalm.

 

I'm a little exasperated that Rebecca's list of things that she says DE have learned are all regarding the Glaive. If that's the main message that they're getting, then they need to work on their communication in both directions. Breaking a whole load of stuff in such an absent-minded way is always going to cause nerd rage. We're at open beta now- at that point in a product lifecycle, you're supposed to have your QA firmly in place, ironing out wrinkles in the process while you polish the product. Even a casual glance at the new patch an hour after it dropped revealed a ton of problems, new and somewhat rubbish melee weapon aside.

 

Warframe's a great game, though it's significantly less great post 7.9.

 

Edit: typo city!

Edited April 30, 2013 by Kattefjaes

[GTG3000]

Yep, Hek is the most heavily XP-gated equipment in the game, by the time you've reached that mastery rank, you're probably looking for something ludicrous to kill lots of high level targets fast. It makes absolutely no sense that it be "balanced" against the entry level weapons, really. If you're tall enough to ride, your main concern is no longer going to be taking down crewmen around Venus and Mars.

 

It no longer performs as per its description, so people who levelled that far to get it, buying plat for slots along the way perhaps, and who potatoed this weapon.. well, they've a right to facepalm.

 

I'm a little exasperated that Rebecca's list of things that she says DE have learned are all regarding the Glaive. If that's the main message that they're getting, then they need to work on their communication in both directions. Breaking a whole load of stuff in such an absent-minded way is always going to cause nerd rage. We're at open beta now- at that point in a product lifecycle, you're supposed to have your QA firmly in place, ironing out wrinkles in the process while you polish the product. Even a casual glance at the new patch an hour after it dropped revealed a ton of problems, new and somewhat rubbish melee weapon aside.

 

Warframe's a great game, though it's significantly less great post 7.9.

 

Edit: typo city!

 

Well, devs say that they read forums and have mods to help them... Although I'm still a bit fuzzy on why no one of them ever tries to enter discussion.