Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[Liminal]

Do it again, and it will pop, meaning it would take approximately 10 seconds to destroy it (which I find alright, since I actually utilise most of the movement mechanics in the game). 

Wait, how is 10 seconds for a single non-heavy unit acceptable? A pretty common unit that can spawn in pairs, or more, and that can protect a number of other units inside it, and that can stack its effects.

 

You can easily kill 10 other units in that time. Why is this guy so special that you should have to spend 10 seconds to bring him down because you brought the "wrong" weapon? He isn't a miniboss, he's no Harvester.

[Renegade343]

Wait, how is 10 seconds for a single non-heavy unit acceptable? A pretty common unit that can spawn in pairs, or more, and that can protect a number of other units inside it, and that can stack its effects.

 

You can easily kill 10 other units in that time. Why is this guy so special that you should have to spend 10 seconds to bring him down because you brought the "wrong" weapon? He isn't a miniboss, he's no Harvester.

I did say, "I.", so do not then extrapolate it into me thinking that it is fine for everybody. 

 

And really, I just bring a fast weapon to pair up with a slow weapon if I know that unit is going to be here (for now). 

[Liminal]

I did say, "I.", so do not then extrapolate it into me thinking that it is fine for everybody. 

 

And really, I just bring a fast weapon to pair up with a slow weapon if I know that unit is going to be here (for now). 

Well, can't argue with that!

 

I think most people are not stubborn enough to not bring at least one high RoF gun if they know nullifiers will rain upon them, but that doesn't mean they're not restricting our weapon choices (which I'm pretty sure wasn't their intended function).

[Tyrian3k]

I did say, "I.", so do not then extrapolate it into me thinking that it is fine for everybody. 

 

And really, I just bring a fast weapon to pair up with a slow weapon if I know that unit is going to be here (for now).

The other choice would be to just use a primary with a high rof and not bother with swapping weapons.

Low rof weapons are at an undeniable disadvantage here and don't really have much of an advantage somewhere else to make up for it.

Just bring the omni tool called Boltor Prime and you won't run into problems anywhere.

I can understand changing weapons for different ranges because of accuracy, but solely because of rate of fire? Not even actual damage output. High rates of fire are perfectly okay on their own when it comes to popping bubbles.

[VDeorsum]

Two months and the nullifiers are still broken, sincerely it's sound very strange to me, and really, i want return to use my Paris Prime in T4

[Renegade343]

I can understand changing weapons for different ranges because of accuracy, but solely because of rate of fire? Not even actual damage output. High rates of fire are perfectly okay on their own when it comes to popping bubbles.

Yet again, to a small extent, damage output does affect Nullifier Crewmen shield shrinkage. 

 

Yes, the upper cap may be too low (yet again, I will suggest 600 as the cap), but at least damage does come into small play. 

[xyLoneZ]

Yet again, to a small extent, damage output does affect Nullifier Crewmen shield shrinkage. 

 

Yes, the upper cap may be too low (yet again, I will suggest 600 as the cap), but at least damage does come into small play. 

When you factor in fully formaed weapons and such, damage output doesn't matter anymore, because any bullet you shot will basically deal more than the upper cap, especially those slow rof weapons.

[Renegade343]

When you factor in fully formaed weapons and such, damage output doesn't matter anymore, because any bullet you shot will basically deal more than the upper cap, especially those slow rof weapons.

If you said that you set the cap to around 2,000 damage, then adjust the default shrinkage percentage of the Nullifier Crewmen shields, then both high damage weapons and other weapons can work better to destroy the shield. 

 

In fact, that is what I am doing now with the formula Rebecca gave us: Playing around with the numbers to get a healthy compromise between DE(L) and players. 

[Tyrian3k]

Yet again, to a small extent, damage output does affect Nullifier Crewmen shield shrinkage. 

 

Yes, the upper cap may be too low (yet again, I will suggest 600 as the cap), but at least damage does come into small play.

For the Boltor to even start losing effectiveness compared to slow weapons, the damage cap needs to be more than the damage of a single bolt from the Boltor, which would be in the range of 2000+. If a bolt from the Boltor Prime doesn't have less effect than a shot from e.g. a Lex Prime will simply be as much worse than the Boltor as its fire rate is slower, not even considering the need for reloading.

[Renegade343]

For the Boltor to even start losing effectiveness compared to slow weapons, the damage cap needs to be more than the damage of a single bolt from the Boltor, which would be in the range of 2000+. If a bolt from the Boltor Prime doesn't have less effect than a shot from e.g. a Lex Prime will simply be as much worse than the Boltor as its fire rate is slower, not even considering the need for reloading.

Thing is, setting it too high, and you just made all the high damage weapons better. 

 

That is why this is difficult to strike a good number for it. 

[GTG3000]

Isn't "it requires fast RoF" the whole point of nullifier shield? Quit whining.

[geninrising]

Yet again, to a small extent, damage output does affect Nullifier Crewmen shield shrinkage. 

 

Yes, the upper cap may be too low (yet again, I will suggest 600 as the cap), but at least damage does come into small play. 

With 400 as the current cap now 600 will make little enough difference as to be no difference at all. It will still take low ROF weapons exponentially longer to destroy the bubble than high ROF weapons.

 

The only real way to make this entire thing amenable to all styles would be to remove a damage cap period and have the shrink occur only once the total damage exceeds it's capacity and then shrink at a metered pace. Additionally the shield MUST factor in critical hits, otherwise there again we will see a gap in effectiveness of weapons.

 

Why is this so difficult? DE created this convoluted damage cap/health/number of hits paradox, and it would be so simple to say damage exceeding X =shrink at X pace.

Edited January 29, 2015 by geninrising

[Liminal]

Thing is, setting it too high, and you just made all the high damage weapons better. 

I'd say the big problem is the op-ness of the top weapons ...

 

Isn't "it requires fast RoF" the whole point of nullifier shield? Quit whining.

The next common mob that DE implements should be 97% resistant to all damage but explosive. "Just equip Penta and quit whining".

Edited January 29, 2015 by The_Doc

[dragonkingdx]

I still have yet to see you, or anyone for that matter, explain why it is imperative for the mob to killed faster with certain weapons. This is a question, that after however long these threads have been showing up, still hasn't been answered. It is actually getting frustrating, people are throwing around all these these counterarguments (which by the way seem really silly) but why haven't you been able to produce a reason for them being they way they are. There are healthy aspects to the mob which are more than welcome, it just happens that slow fire and shotgun weapons have to much difficulty when fighting them. Balance is all that is being asked for why is that a problem?

 

Then why should any mob have any kind of resistance? Why is it imperative for grinner to be taken down faster with corrosive/radiation? or corpus with magnetic damage, or infested with slash/fire? they are taken down faster with the proper element attached to a weapon yet if you choose to bring the wrong one your SOL and overall will do less damage. Logic for you.

Nullifiers follow the same aspect in terms of ROF. While there is no current hinderance to higher ROF atm it doesnt mean there cannot be later. But if people piss whine and moan over every little change that they believe is a personal slap to them things will truly never get better. (which the community does wayyy too much of IMO sometimes its justified others its just complaining for the sake of complaining)

 

Bows and snipers are still viable against every other enemy besides the nullifier, and can take down a heavy unit in 1-2 shots, something higher ROF weaps need a part of a clip to a clip (or more depending on enemy lvl) to take out (because ive honestly never seen a lvl 80-100+ heavy go down faster with a higher ROF weap compared to a bow/opticor) And which honestly end up wasting ammo for the higher ROF weaps when they are better suited to CC. Bows and snipers are good for taking down heavies, nullifier is the one enemy that allows a different adaptation to that rule. Let people with higher ROF deal with CC and weaken the nullifier shield and focus on support with a sniper/bow and take out the heavier units saving higher ROF users ammo and eliminating threats that can hinder/kill your team.

 

Wait, how is 10 seconds for a single non-heavy unit acceptable? A pretty common unit that can spawn in pairs, or more, and that can protect a number of other units inside it, and that can stack its effects.

 

You can easily kill 10 other units in that time. Why is this guy so special that you should have to spend 10 seconds to bring him down because you brought the "wrong" weapon? He isn't a miniboss, he's no Harvester.

Its not a common enemy its a heavy unit. A corpus heavy unit. Ive seen mass numbers of bombards/heavy gunners/napalms spawn together in the same room but that never changed the fact that they were indeed heavy units. They trade the high shield that the red corpus heavies have for a AOE shield that nullifies many things. They are not nearly as common as the other fodder barely worth the space that they take up enemies.

[CapedBaldy]

Just scrap the current formula. Broken as hell. It's either hit or miss with the damage break point. Introduce some alternate method to break the bubble.

[Tyrian3k]

Isn't "it requires fast RoF" the whole point of nullifier shield? Quit whining.

 

No, the point of these bubbles it to stop us from instakilling everything by giving them a delay before they pop.

 

 

 

Just scrap the current formula. Broken as hell. It's either hit or miss with the damage break point. Introduce some alternate method to break the bubble.

 

 

I agree.

 

I'd suggest that the bubble has a set amount of hitpoints that decrease at a rate that scales with the total amount of damage dealt to it.

 

E.g. A bubble has 20,000 hitpoints and receives a hit for 4,000 damage, causing it to shrink at a rate of 4,000 dps which would make it pop in 5 seconds. Deal 10,000 damage to it and it pops in 2 seconds.

 

With this, the actual damage dealt is a factor, but can never make the bubble pop instantly. If necessary, the rate could be capped at a certain amount to give it a minimum duration when hit.

For example if the maximum shrink rate is 10,000, the bubble would never pop in less than 2 seconds.

[Liminal]

Its not a common enemy its a heavy unit. A corpus heavy unit. Ive seen mass numbers of bombards/heavy gunners/napalms spawn together in the same room but that never changed the fact that they were indeed heavy units. They trade the high shield that the red corpus heavies have for a AOE shield that nullifies many things. They are not nearly as common as the other fodder barely worth the space that they take up enemies.

Their spawn rates are more similar to scorpions than to heavy units. Besides they start spawning in groups a lot earlier than bombards or napalms.

They also excel at too many roles, something not even heavies should do (and actually don't). And their intended role is more appropriate for a support unit.

 

But if people &!$$ whine and moan over every little change that they believe is a personal slap to them things will truly never get better. (which the community does wayyy too much of IMO sometimes its justified others its just complaining for the sake of complaining)

It's a feedback forum, it's not "whining" (especially when arguments are given). It's what this place is for.

Edited January 29, 2015 by The_Doc

[Rehero]

Then why should any mob have any kind of resistance? Why is it imperative for grinner to be taken down faster with corrosive/radiation? or corpus with magnetic damage, or infested with slash/fire? they are taken down faster with the proper element attached to a weapon yet if you choose to bring the wrong one your SOL and overall will do less damage. Logic for you.

Nullifiers follow the same aspect in terms of ROF. While there is no current hinderance to higher ROF atm it doesnt mean there cannot be later. But if people &!$$ whine and moan over every little change that they believe is a personal slap to them things will truly never get better. (which the community does wayyy too much of IMO sometimes its justified others its just complaining for the sake of complaining)

Forcing build adaptation based on resistances comes down to mods. Forcing rate of fire adaptation forces players into specific weapon set ups which is VASTLY different. If I have mod slot A vs mod slot B it is still the same weapon. 

 

The viability of these slow rate of fire weapons relies on that high damage per shot to make up for their usually low clip size. If I use a shot on a light unit I waste all that extra damage obviously going for the heavies is key. Now this mob has a shield which is impossibly difficult for slow rate of fire weapons to take down in a timely manner that also more often than not is keeping me from taking out the targets I would normally be killing. It isn't a hindrance, it is a mob that destroys the vast majority of the role that those weapons would fill.

 

It makes sense that there is a mob that reduces ability spam, it doesn't make sense for that very same mob to be an area wide ammo dump. Looking past the ammo dump it makes even less sense that the ammo dump hurts a specific weapon archtype more than others. If they start making mobs that were designed to hinder specific things that is all it needs to be doing not overlapping those hindrances.

 

Edit: To clarify I am ok with the shield being an ammo dump, while I would prefer otherwise I would be alright if it wasn't such a pain on all the weapons I have formaed to this point. Having to level a weapon I dislike using to deal with a single mob whose purpose was to negate abilities makes me sad.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Rehero

[dragonkingdx]

Their spawn rates are more similar to scorpions than to heavy units. Besides they start spawning in groups a lot earlier than bombards or napalms.

They also excel at too many roles, something not even heavies should do (and actually don't). And their intended role is more appropriate for a support unit.

 

 

It's a feedback forum, it's not "whining" (especially when arguments are given). It's what this place is for.

o.o ive seen 3-4 gunners spawn in 1 room of t4 void exterminate missions followed by 2 bombards in the next room. vs 3-4 scorpions per room filled with grineer. RNG is just RNG.

 

Corpus are squishy, their shields are the only things going for them and they lack abilities to take you down as fast. Only heavy for corpus that actually presents a example of a decent heavy is a fusion moa, due to that attack drone being hard hitting after it gets separated. Red crewman do possess some distress if you stand still however its easily taken out due to the fact that it has little hp, orange moas are annoying but just fodder, anti moa's follow the same along with railgun ones (and I hardly would not classify them as a heavy unit) Where grineer have AOE blast and flame and cluster f bullet spray for heavy armored units.

 

And while it may be in the feedback section that doesn't mean people cant over react to certain situations. Over reacting can fall into that whine category.

Forcing build adaptation based on resistances comes down to mods. Forcing rate of fire adaptation forces players into specific weapon set ups which is VASTLY different. If I have mod slot A vs mod slot B it is still the same weapon. 

 

The viability of these slow rate of fire weapons relies on that high damage per shot to make up for their usually low clip size. If I use a shot on a light unit I waste all that extra damage obviously going for the heavies is key. Now this mob has a shield which is impossibly difficult for slow rate of fire weapons to take down in a timely manner that also more often than not is keeping me from taking out the targets I would normally be killing. It isn't a hindrance, it is a mob that destroys the vast majority of the role that those weapons would fill.

 

It makes sense that there is a mob that reduces ability spam, it doesn't make sense for that very same mob to be an area wide ammo dump. Looking past the ammo dump it makes even less sense that the ammo dump hurts a specific weapon archtype more than others. If they start making mobs that were designed to hinder specific things that is all it needs to be doing not overlapping those hindrances.

 

Edit: To clarify I am ok with the shield being an ammo dump, while I would prefer otherwise I would be alright if it wasn't such a pain on all the weapons I have formaed to this point. Having to level a weapon I dislike using to deal with a single mob whose purpose was to negate abilities makes me sad.

 

The example follows personal preference though. Why should I have to switch to magnetic damage for corpus and not continue to use fire and slash like I do infested? I prefer that so why should I have to change what I like to better suit the opponent? Same with corrosive/radiation I prefer that overall since less armor and enemies whacking each other, yet its still less effective. Sure the weapon is the same but im forced to change something in my loadout to better combat them, or I just deal with the disadvantage.

Yes mods and weapons are different. But you choose to bring something to a fight. Just as I could choose to bring less effective mods into a mission I could choose to switch to something more effective. Same can follow for weapons/warframes. (heck some warframes are just plain at a disadvantage vs others in certain situations) 

 

No one has to bring a boltor prime/soma p (which personally I do not like even though I have one just for screw this moments and carrying people) however if they want to combat that 1 enemy then a better suited secondary would do the trick/proper teamwork.  The slower weapons only are weakened vs the nullifiers shields, which yes puts them at a disadvantage. But that disadvantage is not a problem when you shift weapons/change how you play a bit or just plain leave the nullifier alone and support the team in other ways.

 

Its not saying you can only do this and spray it with a high RoF weap, you have the option to take it out slowly or by melee (which yes is harder) or by AOE etc. Just because one choice is more viable than the next does not mean you have to take that choice. (which many people seem to think because its the most viable it means that how it has to be handled) 

 

Preferences are preferences. If you choose to like a bow and use it god dang it keep using it (if snipers were actually better then id be carrying that around the entire time but meh for now opticor) Personal preference of a weapon type should not mean everything has to work equally for that weapon type. This is a line where people believe that their preference should be just as viable as another persons/larger groups. Heck if I prefer lato over every other pistol, should I be allowed to say make heavies have lower HP/buff lato insanely so my lato can kill it faster? Everyone would be saying take a different/better suited weapon into the fight lato sucks compared to others. As that would be the same logic in some sense that people are implying atm with bows/slower RoF weaps. Its less effective vs this enemy so change it so it can be more effective. (different mechanics but same reasoning)

 

Its not a forced change of tactics as you can still handle pretty much every enemy with the slower firing weapons besides that single one. Meaning those slow heavy hitting weaps are still very viable in a battle its not as bad as people make it seem.

[FATEdPondera]

Yet another patch day.

Yet another week goes by with this issue ignored by development.

Oh well, I hear the Ultimate Apocalypse team is going to release their next version of their mod for that Dawn of War game in early February. And that Grey Goo game looks pretty decent.

Digital Extremes doesn't really need our money THAT bad :)

[VDeorsum]

Yet another patch day.

Yet another week goes by with this issue ignored by development.

Oh well, I hear the Ultimate Apocalypse team is going to release their next version of their mod for that Dawn of War game in early February. And that Grey Goo game looks pretty decent.

Digital Extremes doesn't really need our money THAT bad :)

This is sad, really....but it's true, i hate to admit

[Katinka]

(heck some warframes are just plain at a disadvantage vs others in certain situations)

 

[joke]Yeah!  Balance all Warframes against all enemies!  If all weapons are to be made just as effective against Nulifiers, why can't Shield Polarise be made just as effective against Grineer and Infested as it is against Corpus![/joke]

 

If you choose to like a bow and use it god dang it keep using it

 

I actually took my Paris Prime into a T3 mission tonight to see just how it fairs against Nullifiers.  It's not actually that bad if you don't charge it.  Rattle off a few quick shots and then one charged shot to finish him.  I was getting just over 600 damage per shot with no charge which is more than enough to do maximum bubble shrink for one shot.  It's not that slow if you aren't charging.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Katinka

[-InV-igo95862]

The example follows personal preference though. Why should I have to switch to magnetic damage for corpus and not continue to use fire and slash like I do infested? I prefer that so why should I have to change what I like to better suit the opponent? Same with corrosive/radiation I prefer that overall since less armor and enemies whacking each other, yet its still less effective. Sure the weapon is the same but im forced to change something in my loadout to better combat them, or I just deal with the disadvantage.

Yes mods and weapons are different. But you choose to bring something to a fight. Just as I could choose to bring less effective mods into a mission I could choose to switch to something more effective. Same can follow for weapons/warframes. (heck some warframes are just plain at a disadvantage vs others in certain situations)

Slash damage will still kill Corpus. The penalty is really small. Only -25% and only against Robotic health.

Nullifier Shield reduces all damage to 400. For example, Paris Prime can deal up to 30 000 damage per shot. It is a 98.6% damage reduction.

No one has to bring a boltor prime/soma p (which personally I do not like even though I have one just for screw this moments and carrying people) however if they want to combat that 1 enemy then a better suited secondary would do the trick/proper teamwork. The slower weapons only are weakened vs the nullifiers shields, which yes puts them at a disadvantage. But that disadvantage is not a problem when you shift weapons/change how you play a bit or just plain leave the nullifier alone and support the team in other ways.

Tell me a disadvatage of Boltor Prime, Soma or Synoid Grammacor.

Its not saying you can only do this and spray it with a high RoF weap, you have the option to take it out slowly or by melee (which yes is harder) or by AOE etc. Just because one choice is more viable than the next does not mean you have to take that choice. (which many people seem to think because its the most viable it means that how it has to be handled)

Taking down Nullifier from range is always a better option. Even if he is alone you can get one shotted by his Lanka. Add some Bombards and Heavy Gunners.

High RoF weapons already excel at any stage of a game.

Preferences are preferences. If you choose to like a bow and use it god dang it keep using it (if snipers were actually better then id be carrying that around the entire time but meh for now opticor) Personal preference of a weapon type should not mean everything has to work equally for that weapon type. This is a line where people believe that their preference should be just as viable as another persons/larger groups. Heck if I prefer lato over every other pistol, should I be allowed to say make heavies have lower HP/buff lato insanely so my lato can kill it faster? Everyone would be saying take a different/better suited weapon into the fight lato sucks compared to others. As that would be the same logic in some sense that people are implying atm with bows/slower RoF weaps. Its less effective vs this enemy so change it so it can be more effective. (different mechanics but same reasoning)

Paris Prime and Opicor were pretty viable choice in T4 but no more. Adding Nulifier only removed weapons from viable choice.

Its not a forced change of tactics as you can still handle pretty much every enemy with the slower firing weapons besides that single one. Meaning those slow heavy hitting weaps are still very viable in a battle its not as bad as people make it seem.

Those weapons severally under preform compared to Synoid Grammacor, Boltor Prime. You put yourself in disadvantage for using them. I can complete T4 mission with only MK-1 Branton but how much time will it take for me?

[plznohurtme]

No, the point of these bubbles it to stop us from instakilling everything by giving them a delay before they pop.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

I'd suggest that the bubble has a set amount of hitpoints that decrease at a rate that scales with the total amount of damage dealt to it.

 

E.g. A bubble has 20,000 hitpoints and receives a hit for 4,000 damage, causing it to shrink at a rate of 4,000 dps which would make it pop in 5 seconds. Deal 10,000 damage to it and it pops in 2 seconds.

 

With this, the actual damage dealt is a factor, but can never make the bubble pop instantly. If necessary, the rate could be capped at a certain amount to give it a minimum duration when hit.

For example if the maximum shrink rate is 10,000, the bubble would never pop in less than 2 seconds.

 

Until/unless they fix criticals on shields this is just as stupid as Eximus shields are if you're trying to use a Soma/Soma Prime/Grakata to break them.  The shields would be far more balanced if DE just decided on a speed in which they wanted them to shrink and just made it so any damage to the shield triggers the shrink.

 

At the end of the day I see Nullifiers the same way I see Eximus... they unfairly target a very specific type of weapon and there are ways to adjust for that (adding a maximum number of shots on Eximus shields would solve that one and my above suggestion would solve the Nullifier one).  This is on DE to adjust, but honestly I'd be happy if they just came out and said what their plan/reason is regarding the Nullifiers instead of just being silent on the matter.

[Tyrian3k]

Until/unless they fix criticals on shields this is just as stupid as Eximus shields are if you're trying to use a Soma/Soma Prime/Grakata to break them.  The shields would be far more balanced if DE just decided on a speed in which they wanted them to shrink and just made it so any damage to the shield triggers the shrink.

 

At the end of the day I see Nullifiers the same way I see Eximus... they unfairly target a very specific type of weapon and there are ways to adjust for that (adding a maximum number of shots on Eximus shields would solve that one and my above suggestion would solve the Nullifier one).  This is on DE to adjust, but honestly I'd be happy if they just came out and said what their plan/reason is regarding the Nullifiers instead of just being silent on the matter.

I'd like to see criticals apply to bubbles of course. The reason why I wanted to have it as I suggested is that you as a player can have a bit more choice in terms of how much damage they want to pour into the bubble. If it's not urgent it can be solved with a single shot/burst, which allows occupying yourself with other enemies while the bubble dissipates. If there's dangerous enemies underneath the bubble (e.g. Bombards) and the situation is more urgent, I want players to keep having influence on the shrink rate to allow for more focused takedowns. Shooting it only once to just wait doesn't sound interesting enough to me as it doesn't allow for much strategy.