Press 4 To Win

[geninrising]

Alright as a bit of forward I am not in any way bashing people that ult spam nor do I support it as the "proper" way to handle situations.

 

This is from what another person had decided they wished to broach as a possible solution to fix "Homer's Drinking Bird" gameplay that has been prevalent for a while.

 

There are tons of solutions being thrown around like "Nerf Trinity!"(which would be detrimental to tons of players gameplay)

 

Or

 

Nullifiers are enough-Nullifiers are just a horrible bandaid solution that are both thematically broken due to their bubble stopping bullets at all, and extremely overpowered given their immunity to anything as long as you are outside their bubble. The mechanics for popping the bubble are still heavily weighted towards forcing players to use high ROF weaponry thus removing true choice from player loadouts.

 

Here is an excerpt from my posting in said thread which I believe is an accurate statement regarding our current situation and want to perhaps provide some insight as to why P42W will probably be quite prevalent for a while to come .

 

Previously when WF was in closed beta INITIALLY there was a cooldown on abilities and people would run from room to room clearing then waiting for the abilities to come off cooldown. That slowed gameplay too much so they removed cooldowns. Then once they removed cooldown they found that there was not enough prime opportunities to use these great powers because there were not enough enemies. Then later they felt like we had these great powers and plenty of enemies but not enough energy to use them. At that point efficiency became a much more emphasized thing.

 

Now at this point with all the amounts of enemies we face, if they remove power spam via some as yet unknown mechanic, how will ammo mechanics we have now be enough to suffice when we have to turn to our trusty firearms to handle the hordes we face? Some have suggested regenerating ammo pools for a large number of weapons, however this will cause in imbalance in a variety of weapons and make weapons without said regeneration un-viable. 

 

The press 4 to win thing is a problem compounded by many factors that all have to be taken into account virtually simultaneously and the impact these changes will have will be dramatic.

 

Nerfing Trinity's skills will not stop ult spam because as it stands I see Excaliber frames that have no Trin just drop energy restores incrementally that keep them spamming without her entirely. 

 

I could POTENTIALLY see a CD implemented on 4 alone however then the point becomes how do we deal with these hordes of enemies in a game designed for ult spam when our ult is massively nerfed due to people complaining about spam we NEED in tons of content.

 

My answer to the above is that 4 Tenno are not enough or enemy spawn amounts must be scaled down to a manageable amount WITHOUT our ultimates taken into account at all. Considering how much trouble some folks have currently with trying to join a group at all, I don't think more tenno in each squad is possible(unless we get a complete rework of the net code,when pigs fly I'm sure).

 

So all in all the P4TW thing is a much deeper problem than people think otherwise DE would have fixed it by now.

 

Addition:

 

Recently I have been involved in several threads dedicated to trying to figure out what exactly causes a player to want to reduce more than half their abilities to useless buttons that have no benefit to their use at all.

 

The general consensus is as follows:

 

1. Grind- players currently feel that with so much grind in game it is necessary to combat it with the most efficient solution available,#4. The ultimate abilities are by far more efficient than anything else at earning massive amounts of affinity and thus acquire things like: resources(mods,construction resources), syndicate reputation for mods/weapons/keys/specters

 

2. Lackluster abilities- unfortunately the majority of abilities are just not a worthwhile investment of the energy used to cast them. In all things Warframe our goal is to kill things in the fastest most efficient way possible, thus the impetus for ignoring the majority of ones kit in favor of that room clearing explosion(not really an explosion but it fits the idea).

 

Let's give an example of this for emphasis. Excalibur can cast his Slash dash to strike a group of enemies in a straight line doing moderate damage to enemies within said line. OR Excalibur can cast Radial Javelin which will clear said area in a massive radius around him for less energy(and much less effort) than killing all of those enemies with Slash Dash. Thus his slash dash is utterly ignored when creating a build for him.

 

The attitude of "screw my kit, I'll just use my ult when I want a damage ability" is something that really needs to be looked at by DE. When your powers are so worthless that you consider it no loss at all to utterly gimp them into the ground AND YOU DO NOT REGRET THE LOSS there is obviously something innately wrong with them. The community has many threads currently aimed at theory crafting potential solutions to these "forgettable" abilities.

 

Possible ways to combat through positive reinforcement:

 

First up SYNERGY.

When the act of using one power increases the effectiveness of another power it entices the player to do so.

Example 1: When Ember casts accelerant it increases the fire damage that an enemy takes from fire attacks.

So an ember has every reason to use accelerant along with world on fire as opposed to instead of.

Example 2: When Mesa enters her Peacemaker ult she is stationary. This makes her a sitting duck without her defensive powers.

So an Mesa has every reason to use Peacenaker along with her other powers as opposed to instead of.

 

 

Second up DIVERSITY.

When the powers you have do very different things you will pick which to use based on situation.

Example 1: When Rhino wants to control a crowd of enemies he uses stomp. When he wants to buff allies he uses Roaor.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

Example 2: When Trinity wants to give health she uses well of life, when trinity wants to give energy she uses energy vampire.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

 

If each frames power set offered a great sense of both synergy and diversity the game would shift quite a bit away from the "press 4 to win" style of play. If nothing else...it would at least become "press a combination of these four buttons to win"...which is an improvement.

 

I will begin to add links here shortly when I find enough notable threads to provide a large quantity of potential content inclusions that I feel could actually prove greatly beneficial to this matter.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[Zakharon]

Oh yes make massive changes to the game so less people will play...that makes sense 

[xRufus7x]

Meh, nullifiers are fine. The ones in the void just need to be fixed.

[dddeath]

may i just add that some(all?) syndi weps made this even easier. i'm getting all the energy i need from the syndi effect when i'm running around pressing 4 with Saryn. out of energy? (which is rare), just pew pew a bit with the gun and off you go again.

 

dunno what happened but when i started playing this like a year ago i don't remember people running around much doing that.

Edited January 4, 2015 by dddeath

[MechaKnight]

I'll just paste in the relevant portions from the previous thread.

 

Section 01

I may as well quote myself.

Radial nukes are good.
Fleeting expertise is evil.

 

Agreed. It's nice to have a powerful game-changing ability, but it trivializes the game if it's accessible whenever you want it to be.

 

Having enough energy for an ability needs to mean something. I think the best way to solve the whole Pr4TW issue is to revamp the energy system as a whole, and make it so "4" abilities are still ludicrously powerful, but can't just be pressed on a whim with no drawbacks.

And no, I'm not talking about some horrid cooldown system; I'm talking about a system that makes you earn the Energy for abilities (through dealing damage, taking damage, reviving teammates, pulling off parkour stunts, completing objectives (or assisting in doing so), etc) rather than relying on RNG as we do now.

 

 

I saw another thread show a problem with the "earn" system but I can't find it now. The gist of that user's post was that by stealing kills from teammates constantly, said player will gain the ability to use their abilities more than other players who can't kill as fast. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

 

I would recommend increased energy cost for those "4" abilities, but that wouldn't change anything--With the current efficiency caps we have now, it'll only take 37.5 energy to spam that 150 energy ability. It barely fixes the problem at all.

 

Ability system rework threads have popped up, with a variety of ideas. The most common one I've seen is implementing cooldowns, but the best one I've seen is degrading efficiencies. If you spam an ability, it would cost more next time you cast it. This can not be applied to every ability as the cheaper abilities are expected to be used frequently. It will definitely apply with harsher percentage penalties on more powerful abilities however.

 

In the vein of that other thread, I suggest an additional mechanic. Remember the Gate Crash event? Let's introduce those scaling mechanics. If you spam an ability, it would degrade rapidly. It would be restored to full strength if you stop using it for a while, but if used too often it will gradually fall off. All power attributes of strength, range, and duration would fall until the ability becomes nearly worthless.

 

However, maybe even this is not enough. The biggest problem is how the "4 nukes" scale in energy consumption compared to our other abilities.

 

Oberon:

Smite: Hit one target with Radiation status and 500 damage, hit 6 more after that with puncture status for 150 Radiation damage.

"Hmm, that's sounds nice."

 

Reckoning: hit infinite enemies within a 15 meter radius for 1250 radiation/impact damage, blind them, inflict radiation status, and give little red cherry orbs if you kill them with it.

"BARGAIN!"

 

It doesn't matter if it costs only 4 times as much, or 10 times as much. Some players may find practical uses for this ability even if it cost 20 times as much. Also, Oberon is actually one of the most balanced examples I can give where the first ability in his kit is even appreciable for the 25 energy it costs compared to his "4 nuke." If you try the same comparison with Excalibur, it's a no-brainer. Excalibur would use his radial over his Slash Dash even if it cost more than 20 times as much. Now that I think about it, Radial Blind is looking a bit shabby for 12.5 energy (rounded to 13) when it does no damage. Radial Javelin blinds enemies as well through walls and inflicts damage for only 25 energy. Super Jump is cheap at 4 energy, but your Energy Siphon would patch that up in a few seconds so feel free to spam that alongside your rain of javelins.

 

My point being, whoever drafting our ability cost system who decided our fourth ability is linearly as valuable as our first ability being cast 4 times really should be shown some extensive spontaneous gameplay within Warframe. There is very little reason to use our other abilities, unless their effect for their cost is mind-numbingly effective in comparison (Mag's Pull compared to her Crush) or is insanely powerful (infinite scaling launchable nukes from Nova's Antimatter Drop).

 

The whole system needs a rework from the ground up. It's no small wonder why the developers have made the archwing efficiency mod so comparatively mild in comparison. It only gives 27.5% efficiency, yet is a rank 10 mod. Smaller limitations like these would have been better for the whole game in the long run.

 

 

In short, what we need is a system that reinforces kit variety at the cost of ability attributes (duration, efficiency, range, strength). If you spam one ability too much, it'll get weaker in all attributes simultaneously and cost more to use. To prevent your abilities becoming bad, you use other abilities or wait a bit. It's not a cooldown mechanic; you are free to use the ability as much as you please. It would simply become more effective to use more abilities from your kit instead of spamming one.

 

This system can be implemented to punish spam on most abilities, not punish duration-based abilities with decent duration, and only harm toggles if they're kept on too long or turned on/off too often. This system can also give perks for juggling abilities and using good variety, but the primary concern in general is how trivial our gameplay is due to min-maxing. There is a massive problem with any game where you are given a kit of abilities, yet the best strategy is pressing one button forever through any mission in the game.

 

Now here is a good idea however, in the current state of the game with the massive amounts of spawns and overwhelming numbers of enemies this would not work. The game is currently BUILT FOR ult spam. 

 

Previously when WF was in closed beta INITIALLY there was a cooldown on abilities and people would run from room to room clearing then waiting for the abilities to come off cooldown. That slowed gameplay too much so they removed cooldowns. Then once they removed cooldown they found that there was not enough prime opportunities to use these great powers because there were not enough enemies. Then later they felt like we had these great powers and plenty of enemies but not enough energy to use them. At that point efficiency became a much more emphasized thing.

 

Now at this point with all the amounts of enemies we face, if they remove power spam via some as yet unknown mechanic, how will ammo mechanics we have now be enough to suffice when we have to turn to our trusty firearms to handle the hordes we face? Some have suggested regenerating ammo pools for a large number of weapons, however this will cause in imbalance in a variety of weapons and make weapons without said regeneration un-viable. 

 

The press 4 to win thing is a problem compounded by many factors that all have to be taken into account virtually simultaneously and the impact these changes will have will be dramatic.

 

Nerfing Trinity's skills will not stop ult spam because as it stands I see Excaliber frames that have no Trin just drop energy restores incrementally that keep them spamming without her entirely. 

 

I could POTENTIALLY see a CD implemented on 4 alone however then the point becomes how do we deal with these hordes of enemies in a game designed for ult spam when our ult is massively nerfed due to people complaining about spam we NEED in tons of content.

 

My answer to the above is that 4 Tenno are not enough or enemy spawn amounts must be scaled down to a manageable amount WITHOUT our ultimates taken into account at all. Considering how much trouble some folks have currently with trying to join a group at all, I don't think more tenno in each squad is possible(unless we get a complete rework of the net code,when pigs fly I'm sure).

 

So all in all the P4TW thing is a much deeper problem than people think otherwise DE would have fixed it by now.

 

This is a very true and accurate point being made. It's as if the game needs to be reverse-engineered way back if we could ever hope for it to get better, and the chance of that happening is slim.

 

Well, I suppose the start of the solution can be seen with balancing abilities and enemy spawn rates downward at the same time. As for ammo economy, perhaps making each ammo pickup give a more significant refill can compensate for the reduced spawn rate of enemies. However, the net code which binds us together relies heavily on clients, and this is killing the game for a lot of possible options. If there were dedicated servers this could be alleviated, but I can imagine this takes some time and investment.

 

And of course, nerfing Trinity is a horrible band-aid solution, given that we can bypass her absence by dropping more energy plates than we should be able to carry, without any cooldowns at all. As for the cooldown on only ability #4, some warframes may spam another button instead, so my idea was to nerf the most spammed ability over time. It will affect mostly nukes and thrown grenades, with almost no effect on duration abilities and only punishing toggles when used to spam release constantly or sustain for prolonged periods. Using other abilities can remove the stat reduction penalty from the overused abilities faster than waiting would, and the system can be fine-tuned to penalize more powerful abilities compared to others.

 

The solution for ability spam is not simple as you've said, I'm just throwing ideas out there but I don't know of any true solution. There are many problems in the game really. There are 34 or so limited edition mods but only 4 are released permanently, some of these are becoming core to gameplay. Weapon powercreep being remedied by band-aid augments slowly and in a generally lackluster form. Core problems with warframe gameplay being treated with augments in a similar way when the situation with warframes is more complex than weapons. It's all a huge nest of issues. That said, I really do want this game to be good; I've been holding out for this long watching the feedback go by. The game is simply locked into a stale pattern of gameplay, our community is getting stale for it, and I've seen more people quit this game in December alone than I've ever seen before. I really don't know what the solution is but I hope there's a solution out there that will actually be implemented. The feedback sections resemble a feedback graveyard as time goes by, as players pile on heaps of ideas of varying validity. People want change and additions, but priority is definitely on fixing the core system responsible for the other symptoms.

 

 

Section 02

 

In fact it's just a gamebalancing problem of the frames.

 

Take Nova for example:

Her MPrime was literally the epitome of an overpowered ultimate.

Now it requires duration, range and strength and thus is harder to mod for than it was before.

 

Loki doesn't need strength at all so Overextended is an auto-include and free slots for other stuff.

 

Saryn is in a funny situation where less duration makes her even better. Transient Fortitude and Fleeting Expertise all the way.

 

---------------

 

Aside from that, OP: If you don't like press 4 to win... just don't do it. If you play public, you have to deal with lots of people and lots of playstyles.

 

Actually, M. Prime only requires duration and strength for the practical purpose of spreading far, doubling damage done, and slowing enemies. The amount of range we are able to achieve with Constitution, Primed Continuity, and Narrow Minded easily exceeds 100 meters radius, and I'm using Transient Fortitude and Fleeting Expertise on top so it's probably around 150 meters radius.
 When the M. Prime rebalance came out, Nova could only slow by a speed reduction of 50%. She can now slow up to 75%, and only needs 1 or 2 strength mods to do so.

 

As for Saryn, she's the epitome of what's wrong with the game really. Modding for a possible -92.5% duration loss harms her other 3 abilities and both of her augments. Then you realize the problem... pressing one button is the most valid way to play this game on nearly every warframe.

 

 

In summary, this has been a problem since closed beta and has been slowly killing the game for many warframes, spamming one ability is the way to go for every mission. For Saryn and Trinity, they can be tuned to spam their "best" ability at the cost of their other three and both augments. It would be bad to play using only one ability and no possible augments, but it's not because the game has become so trivial, pressing one button for only one ability is the most efficient way to play with no incentive for variety or punishment for using the same stale tactics.

 

As for the opening post on the thread, it's heavily neutral but generally indicates that while this problem needs a solution, finding one is not easy. I have proposed one unpolished solution in the previous thread--now above within those minimized sections--to remedy the problem, but this is not the only way to solve this issue. Many systems need to be considered before any solution is proposed. However, it seems this long beyond closed beta and open beta, we've been waiting long enough.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[BoneBreakerx]

well the biggest problem DE is facing (as far as im aware) is that there engine cant handle too complex AI's so swarm mentality is all we are gonna get from the enemies... and with only one track minded enemies we wont will have to make one track minded tactics...

 

so the only real way to fix P42W is for DE to somehow optimize the engine or make a new one... and that (as far as i know) takes years to do...

[Ordel]

Meh, nullifiers are fine. The ones in the void just need to be fixed.

 

So they're all supposed to take 5+ maxxed magnetic paris prime arrows?..

 

--

 

To the OP, it's arguable that Warframe was entirely built around P42W. I rarely use abilities (I run a survivability Saryn), and my grinlok and I grind up to lv60ish enemies. 

 

Regardless, I still think I could get along with CD only on our 4ths along with a tweak (if necessary) to enemy spawns. I don't personally think the latter would be necessary though.

[Someguy316]

The biggest issue I see is the talk about not wanting Radial Blind to hit targets that you have no line of sight but then abilities like Radial Javelin, Rhino Stomp, Molecular Prime, Avalanche, etc, can all target enemies through walls and through ceilings. There are different ways to address this but it looks like it's going to end up just like the Arcane helmets; DE doesn't want to anger their older players that spent platinum to do this stuff and the game design suffers because of it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Someguy316

[xRufus7x]

So they're all supposed to take 5+ maxxed magnetic paris prime arrows?..

Possibly. I guess it depends on their level, if they are even impacted by elemental damage, and your maxed Paris build. I have no problem taking them out with an unmaxed Lanka on Pluto in 4ish shots.

[xRufus7x]

The biggest issue I see is the talk about not wanting Radial Blind to hit targets that you have no line of sight but then abilities like Radial Javelin, Rhino Stomp, Molecular Prime, Avalanche, etc, can all target enemies through walls and through ceilings. There are different ways to address this but it looks like it's going to end up just like the Arcane helmets; DE doesn't want to anger their older players that spent platinum to do this stuff and the game design suffers because of it.

I think the problem here is that if they wanted to add line of sight requirements, they would need to do it to all of the powers that they wanted to change at once, and it would need to universally impact all frames so they are all on the same level.

And honestly, that would hurt a lot of frames. The only exception being Mesa, whose ultimate requires line of sight, but it is pretty generous about it and completely ignores range mods.

[MechaKnight]

I think the problem here is that if they wanted to add line of sight requirements, they would need to do it to all of the powers that they wanted to change at once, and it would need to universally impact all frames so they are all on the same level.

And honestly, that would hurt a lot of frames. The only exception being Mesa, whose ultimate requires line of sight, but it is pretty generous about it and completely ignores range mods.

That's it right there, but it's about time the developers do a steamroll rebalance. Line-of-sight would be an okay solution. My solution about attribute loss to counter spam is another option. Regardless of what option is picked, it needs to happen universally across all warframes so as to not discriminate, and it needs to happen soon--like, actually soon, not Soon™.

 

Exceptions like Peacemaker can be treated as needed. For my attribute solution, no changes need to be made to any ability to solve the problem, since the spam itself would become less appealing regardless of how you mod for the ability. For DE's LoS implementation, the range would probably be decreased. Still, a solution needs to be implemented because gameplay feels insignificant, and we're losing player volume over it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Nighttide77]

I'm trying to understand what's the problem with P42W...  Are people unhappy that certain tactics work too well?  I was of the understanding that warframes are supposed to have an edge over common enemies, and that there are certain enemies that trump even a warframe's ult (primarily bosses that are on the same power level as a warframe).  I even hear people complain that warframes are too squishy...  For me, if I get tired of Rhino Stomping, I switch to another frame, like Ash for stealth, Frost, or Limbo.  The beauty of all the different styles of frames is that if you get tired of one strategy, you can switch to another.

 

Further, not all missions can be fully successful with any one frame.  Rescue missions require a degree of stealth, defense missions require crowd control and/or the ability to protect the objective.

 

I'm pretty sure people are supposed to feel that sense of incredibly overwhelming dozens of enemies.  If you don't like that feeling, then you have the freedom to stop using that strategy.  I love that freedom to choose.

 

If people are unhappy about nullifiers that you can't do anything to with a power, what are people going to say when the riot moas can't be shot directly cuz of their shields, when Grineer fanatics sneak attack unsuspecting Tenno that puts the Stalker to shame, or the infested juggernauts with all their armored skin and only vulnerable when the juggernaut spews acid or something?  People griefed when ancient healers made surrounding enemies hard to take down.

 

What it looks like as the game continues in development (lore-wise) is that enemies continue to analyze warframes and develop countermeasures to their soldiers in order to hinder Tenno influence in the solar system.  I'm sure there will eventually be enemies that can't be bled, burned, or stunned, and even enemies that mimic warframes...perhaps an enemy that once hit by molecular prime is able to then activate molecular prime, itself, but then immune to molecular prime until another warframe ability is used upon it?  Honestly, that sounds more like something I'd rather face from a boss than the common/uncommon enemy.

 

I'm sure there are people that don't like the ability to spam ultimate power moves just like there are people who don't like the fact that Rhino Prime with an Arcane Vanguard Helm and Rush mod can sprint comparable to Loki.  However, there are those of us eccentrics that truly enjoy spamming Blade Storm, standing in front of enemy fire with Reflex Guard and Reflection like a boss, and sprinting with Rhino Prime like an out of control bullet train.

 

I think I just ranted a ton here, but if someone can explain their perspective of hindering warframe ultimates, I'd appreciate it.  I think the ability to choose whether you spam ultimates is a feature of Warframe, and if you don't like it, you don't have to do it.  I don't think that just because some people don't like P42W doesn't mean other people shouldn't be able to.

[AlphaHorseman]

If you don't like the option to use all your powers whenever you're allowed to use them, all you have to do is not use them. You don't, however, have the right to tell the rest of us that we should have cool downs to our powers simply because you believe we shouldn't have the right to use our powers whenever we wish. After all, it's not like we love playing the game how we want to play it.

[Jasonamous]

I've liked the ideas of cooldowns since DOTA 2, they just shouldn't be drastic (no more than 10 seconds at MOST) and only on the massive crowd control ultimates like Radial Javelin and Miasma.

[MechaKnight]

I'm trying to understand what's the problem with P42W...  Are people unhappy that certain tactics work too well?  I was of the understanding that warframes are supposed to have an edge over common enemies, and that there are certain enemies that trump even a warframe's ult (primarily bosses that are on the same power level as a warframe).  I even hear people complain that warframes are too squishy...  For me, if I get tired of Rhino Stomping, I switch to another frame, like Ash for stealth, Frost, or Limbo.  The beauty of all the different styles of frames is that if you get tired of one strategy, you can switch to another.

 

Further, not all missions can be fully successful with any one frame.  Rescue missions require a degree of stealth, defense missions require crowd control and/or the ability to protect the objective.

 

I'm pretty sure people are supposed to feel that sense of incredibly overwhelming dozens of enemies.  If you don't like that feeling, then you have the freedom to stop using that strategy.  I love that freedom to choose.

 

If people are unhappy about nullifiers that you can't do anything to with a power, what are people going to say when the riot moas can't be shot directly cuz of their shields, when Grineer fanatics sneak attack unsuspecting Tenno that puts the Stalker to shame, or the infested juggernauts with all their armored skin and only vulnerable when the juggernaut spews acid or something?  People griefed when ancient healers made surrounding enemies hard to take down.

 

What it looks like as the game continues in development (lore-wise) is that enemies continue to analyze warframes and develop countermeasures to their soldiers in order to hinder Tenno influence in the solar system.  I'm sure there will eventually be enemies that can't be bled, burned, or stunned, and even enemies that mimic warframes...perhaps an enemy that once hit by molecular prime is able to then activate molecular prime, itself, but then immune to molecular prime until another warframe ability is used upon it?  Honestly, that sounds more like something I'd rather face from a boss than the common/uncommon enemy.

 

I'm sure there are people that don't like the ability to spam ultimate power moves just like there are people who don't like the fact that Rhino Prime with an Arcane Vanguard Helm and Rush mod can sprint comparable to Loki.  However, there are those of us eccentrics that truly enjoy spamming Blade Storm, standing in front of enemy fire with Reflex Guard and Reflection like a boss, and sprinting with Rhino Prime like an out of control bullet train.

 

I think I just ranted a ton here, but if someone can explain their perspective of hindering warframe ultimates, I'd appreciate it.  I think the ability to choose whether you spam ultimates is a feature of Warframe, and if you don't like it, you don't have to do it.  I don't think that just because some people don't like P42W doesn't mean other people shouldn't be able to.

 

The problem with "press 4 to win" is how pointless the game becomes to play. The only difficulty this game has is in grinding RNG. Other than getting a lucky drop, there's no reason to strive to be better at this game when you have an easy button to solve all your problems. These days, any team who doesn't make it to 75 minutes in T4 survival trouble free are probably new and don't have the same limited-edition mods we have. We're so powerful compared to the game, and it also doesn't require any skill to play the game this well so long as you're geared for it. Other than the shape of the map, nothing really changes. In general, our abilities are really way too effective for way too little effort and variation involved. Gameplay doesn't feel rewarding if there's nothing to be proud, no reason to refine yourself to be a better player/person, and no reason to care about what's next.

 

Any mission can be done successfully with any warframe--I did my stealth mastery test with a rank 1 Ember on the first try. However, most people just use Loki, drop an energy plate they should not even be allowed to have on a mastery test, and just breeze through it. Energy is already abundant in the game, and we're still allowed to carry 200 energy plates per gear slot to throw them down with zero delay or cooldown in between. That's been the easy solution for any struggling player: hoard energy plates and breeze through the mission with spam.

 

"Overwhelming dozens of enemies" don't even feel the slightest bit intimidating when you can press a button and either make them go away or remove whatever quality makes them dangerous. Nova can slow enemies by 75% and make them take double damage, which effectively is reducing their damage done be about half, making them easier to aim at, making them twice as easy to kill, and even giving the chance at a chain explosion that makes the "overwhelming dozens" vanish into thin air with one strong shot--or an AMD.

 

The new enemies are admittedly patch solutions to our power problem, but I actually like them. They are giving us a difficulty and challenge that's been absent to use for so long. We no longer roost on a ledge in infested missions and laugh at them. We no longer can say the corpus are ability fodder. I appreciate how the devs are making the game more formidable in a few areas of the game, but the game is still mostly too trivially easy to play through. That's unsatisfying and boring.

 

I like that you see why players can find "press 4 to win" boring, and you see why other players like to enjoy a rush of power. However, the mark of a good game allows us to feel powerful and challenged at the same time. We need an element of that in warframe, where the game doesn't just look cool, but you feel like you've matured in the game to use certain strategies that require attention and dexterity instead of mashing a single button to solve all your problems. A rebalance of abilities so spamming isn't winning will not kill the fun of the game. The fun will still be there, and it will feel even more satisfying to win against the game and work as a team.

 

 

If you don't like the option to use all your powers whenever you're allowed to use them, all you have to do is not use them. You don't, however, have the right to tell the rest of us that we should have cool downs to our powers simply because you believe we shouldn't have the right to use our powers whenever we wish. After all, it's not like we love playing the game how we want to play it.

 

This is why I propose alternative mechanics than just rock-solid cooldown mechanics. Spam degradation and line-of-sight or mechanics that will allow us to always use our abilities, but not destroy the game's challenge aspect. The game can still be played just as you do now, but it'll have a more satisfying sense of accomplishment to it, instead of waiting until 60 waves/75 minutes to see even the slightest hint of challenge, which is only there at all because of the mechanic of giving enemies steroids and pumping them into the room in ridiculous numbers. An ability/energy system rebalance can hopefully make such a number of enemies suitable for raids of more than 4 tenno.

 

One step at a time needs to be taken for development. As of now, a major priority in the game is making gameplay feel more significant than mashing one button forever with no challenge or reason to learn the game and group up with friends. Fixing ability spam is the right way to go.

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[geninrising]

As I said for anyone that has failed to read the entire OP, there are many factors that go into this matter and simply changing how ults work would put us all in a bad place with little to no ability to save ourselves. At points in the game you absolutely NEED that spam due to the fact that we are already being swarmed by multitudes of enemies. Without a large amount of reworking all ultimates and enemy spawns there cannot be a change that will be ideal for the majority of our population, nor would a portion even be ABLE to play the game due to their current skill set(player skill not WF kit).

 

The changes proposed by many could lead to a massive loss of revenue for DE and so I am unsure if that would be good or not.

 

In the long run I'm sure it would be a massive improvement for the community as it would push towards my primary want for this game, all playstyles being equally effective and valid.

 

I ask if there are any long time veterans here they weigh in on how the powers USED to make you feel when you would walk into a room and clear it with an Ult versus how you feel now.

 

For me I can say without a doubt that the ults used to feel much more visceral and made you actually feel powerful to use them, whereas now it's just meh I'm pressing 4 to be faster.

Edited January 4, 2015 by geninrising

[Nighttide77]

Still, a solution needs to be implemented because gameplay feels insignificant, and we're losing player volume over it.

 

I don't think that nerfing powers will make people feel the game has more breadth.  I do think that defeating the same grineer butcher and trooper thousands and thousands of times makes the game dry.  Regardless of AI, the opponent is pretty much going down and there isn't much of a rewarding feeling after you've figured them out.  Lephantis, Vay Hek, Vor...the joy from defeating them wanes after the first time and warframe powers versus bosses already have lesser effect compared to the cannon fodder.

 

I think people respond to feeling like their actions make a difference.  If the current Balor Fomorian event showed the individual how much of a contribution they made to taking down a Fomorian, more people would want to stick around and keep grinding at the Fomorian as if it were a boss that took more than one run to actually defeat.  Same with invasions from the 3 main factions.

 

I also think people enjoy feeling how their weapons and/or frames represent a part of themselves.  I know there are those that enjoy experimental weapons, too, like the paracyst or nukor (which I'm almost certain was meant for microwaving food, not people).  There are even fun weapons like the glaxion.

 

In order to keep players, I think the players have to feel like there's some sort of grand goal at the end besides some unlimited grind or lasting 100+ defense waves.

[geninrising]

I don't think that nerfing powers will make people feel the game has more breadth.  I do think that defeating the same grineer butcher and trooper thousands and thousands of times makes the game dry.  Regardless of AI, the opponent is pretty much going down and there isn't much of a rewarding feeling after you've figured them out.  Lephantis, Vay Hek, Vor...the joy from defeating them wanes after the first time and warframe powers versus bosses already have lesser effect compared to the cannon fodder.

 

I think people respond to feeling like their actions make a difference.  If the current Balor Fomorian event showed the individual how much of a contribution they made to taking down a Fomorian, more people would want to stick around and keep grinding at the Fomorian as if it were a boss that took more than one run to actually defeat.  Same with invasions from the 3 main factions.

 

I also think people enjoy feeling how their weapons and/or frames represent a part of themselves.  I know there are those that enjoy experimental weapons, too, like the paracyst or nukor (which I'm almost certain was meant for microwaving food, not people).  There are even fun weapons like the glaxion.

 

In order to keep players, I think the players have to feel like there's some sort of grand goal at the end besides some unlimited grind or lasting 100+ defense waves.

Agreed on all points except the Formorian thing. I detest this event because it forces players that do not even like AW in the slightest to help contribute to some extent or risk losing the relay's entirely. 

[AlphaHorseman]

This is why I propose alternative mechanics than just rock-solid cooldown mechanics. Spam degradation and line-of-sight or mechanics that will allow us to always use our abilities, but not destroy the game's challenge aspect. The game can still be played just as you do now, but it'll have a more satisfying sense of accomplishment to it, instead of waiting until 60 waves/75 minutes to see even the slightest hint of challenge, which is only there at all because of the mechanic of giving enemies steroids and pumping them into the room in ridiculous numbers. An ability/energy system rebalance can hopefully make such a number of enemies suitable for raids of more than 4 tenno.

 

One step at a time needs to be taken for development. As of now, a major priority in the game is making gameplay feel more significant than mashing one button forever with no challenge or reason to learn the game and group up with friends. Fixing ability spam is the right way to go.

Instead of nerfing how players have modded their entire kits for, as they have all the right to do, I feel the solution should be focused on making the rest of a WarFrames kit useful. Players spend days, weeks, months, formae, time, reactors, and endlessly grinding missions to get to the point where they can mod however powerfully they want to make a power. That's the beauty of the system, we have the capability of creating our frames as we see fit. DE gives us the WarFrames as a foundation, and from that foundation we can build however we want to. We find ourselves with the freedom to mod as we wish, and create builds that we find suite our needs. Should players mod to max out one power out of their kit, because that is the power they wish to use, then so be it. They shouldn't be punished for all the hell they went through and all the hard work that they put into it simply because people think that their way of playing the game is wrong. They should be rewarded for their actions because they put their hard work into making their frames however they wish.

 

If you want players to look at the rest of their power kits and see them as viable, then you shouldn't hurt them for their hard work, you're just punishing them for playing the game. No, what you need to do is improve the rest of the powers within that kit to be more so appealing. Incorporate traits into those powers that allow them to scale, or add extra CC, or higher damage, or an interesting mechanic that allows them to see that they aren't just limited to one power they see is good, but they now realize that the rest of their powers offer a great deal of ways to deal with enemy threats, to mod for, to consider. You make the rest of the kit comparable to that power, then you can see players diversifying their kits to tailor to more than just one power.

 

A key element to this would be synergy across a kit, but diversity in how a kit functions. What I mean is that it would be great for each power within a kit to function well on it's own, but should a player wish it, the entirety of a kit confluence to show players that all their powers working together is also an extremely  viable route to take when modding. Thus, we have the added dynamic of both sides coming out on top. People who use a certain power as their go to do not have their hard work and massive amounts of time wasted because their game play style is not hindered simply because they are good at what they do. People who want to ensure that the entirety of a powers kit isn't sacrificed for one power realize that they don't have to, and that the entire kit can be useful. 

 

We don't need to be punishing players for their hard work by making their use of a single power penalized. That's exactly how they wanted to build it, they should't be hurt for making their frames specialized to the highest potential that it could go in their eyes. LoS doesn't work, we've seen what that hell raised with Excalibur, Trinity, and Mag. I will never think that this is ever a good solution to anything regarding powers because it severely hinders them.

 

I, nor I think a big amount of the player base, will find any more sense of accomplishment by someone else telling me I shouldn't use the powers I've modded for simply because they think I shouldn't. You want to hurt me for playing my way? Well hell yeah I'm gonna be pissed because I enjoy how I play, and someone else telling me that it's wrong is wrong in their own right. My enjoyment is for myself, yours is for yours. But that does not mean that your enjoyment should mean hurting how I enjoy my game play style. I'm not saying I press one key forever, but I'm saying that if people do that for their own enjoyment, then who are we to tell them they can't?

 

If you want challenge, then mod for however you want to and go into a mission you think is challenging. I find challenge in my game play just fine, either in the Void or outside of it. Just because you cannot find the challenge does not mean this is a broken game mechanic. We are supposed to be able to mod for powerful amounts of damage and be able to wreak havoc on the battlefield, that's why we're given the freedom to do so.

 

The solution is not hurting peoples play styles simply because you think it will help with "longevity" or whatever the argument is here. You don't go around nerfing people's abilities, you up the capacity and usefulness of the other powers in the kit so that there are options for the player to look at. THAT allows for diversity of powers to be used. NOT hurting them for maxing out their frames to the max potential of the play style they are going for.

[Nighttide77]

An ability/energy system rebalance can hopefully make such a number of enemies suitable for raids of more than 4 tenno.

 

One step at a time needs to be taken for development. As of now, a major priority in the game is making gameplay feel more significant than mashing one button forever with no challenge or reason to learn the game and group up with friends. Fixing ability spam is the right way to go.

 

Ah, I think I see your perspective, now.  It's like your view matches Firefall and maybe other Warcraft copies...every person's power is somewhat limited so no single individual can just nuke a location of any enemies (thus everyone has to coordinate their powers), up to 20-person raids, requires paying attention to specific telegraphs from enemies to know when to find cover or fly out of range, not being able to one-shot heavy enemies, etc.  Is all that fairly accurate?

 

I don't think Warframe would be Warframe if it incorporated those elements...

[AlphaHorseman]

Ah, I think I see your perspective, now.  It's like your view matches Firefall and maybe other Warcraft copies...every person's power is somewhat limited so no single individual can just nuke a location of any enemies (thus everyone has to coordinate their powers), up to 20-person raids, requires paying attention to specific telegraphs from enemies to know when to find cover or fly out of range, not being able to one-shot heavy enemies, etc.  Is all that fairly accurate?

 

I don't think Warframe would be Warframe if it incorporated those elements...

Exactly what I was thinking.

[MechaKnight]

Instead of nerfing how players have modded their entire kits for, as they have all the right to do, I feel the solution should be focused on making the rest of a WarFrames kit useful. Players spend days, weeks, months, formae, time, reactors, and endlessly grinding missions to get to the point where they can mod however powerfully they want to make a power. That's the beauty of the system, we have the capability of creating our frames as we see fit. DE gives us the WarFrames as a foundation, and from that foundation we can build however we want to. We find ourselves with the freedom to mod as we wish, and create builds that we find suite our needs. Should players mod to max out one power out of their kit, because that is the power they wish to use, then so be it. They shouldn't be punished for all the hell they went through and all the hard work that they put into it simply because people think that their way of playing the game is wrong. They should be rewarded for their actions because they put their hard work into making their frames however they wish.

 

If you want players to look at the rest of their power kits and see them as viable, then you shouldn't hurt them for their hard work, you're just punishing them for playing the game. No, what you need to do is improve the rest of the powers within that kit to be more so appealing. Incorporate traits into those powers that allow them to scale, or add extra CC, or higher damage, or an interesting mechanic that allows them to see that they aren't just limited to one power they see is good, but they now realize that the rest of their powers offer a great deal of ways to deal with enemy threats, to mod for, to consider. You make the rest of the kit comparable to that power, then you can see players diversifying their kits to tailor to more than just one power.

 

A key element to this would be synergy across a kit, but diversity in how a kit functions. What I mean is that it would be great for each power within a kit to function well on it's own, but should a player wish it, the entirety of a kit confluence to show players that all their powers working together is also an extremely  viable route to take when modding. Thus, we have the added dynamic of both sides coming out on top. People who use a certain power as their go to do not have their hard work and massive amounts of time wasted because their game play style is not hindered simply because they are good at what they do. People who want to ensure that the entirety of a powers kit isn't sacrificed for one power realize that they don't have to, and that the entire kit can be useful. 

 

We don't need to be punishing players for their hard work by making their use of a single power penalized. That's exactly how they wanted to build it, they should't be hurt for making their frames specialized to the highest potential that it could go in their eyes. LoS doesn't work, we've seen what that hell raised with Excalibur, Trinity, and Mag. I will never think that this is ever a good solution to anything regarding powers because it severely hinders them.

 

I, nor I think a big amount of the player base, will find any more sense of accomplishment by someone else telling me I shouldn't use the powers I've modded for simply because they think I shouldn't. You want to hurt me for playing my way? Well hell yeah I'm gonna be &!$$ed because I enjoy how I play, and someone else telling me that it's wrong is wrong in their own right. My enjoyment is for myself, yours is for yours. But that does not mean that your enjoyment should mean hurting how I enjoy my game play style. I'm not saying I press one key forever, but I'm saying that if people do that for their own enjoyment, then who are we to tell them they can't?

 

If you want challenge, then mod for however you want to and go into a mission you think is challenging. I find challenge in my game play just fine, either in the Void or outside of it. Just because you cannot find the challenge does not mean this is a broken game mechanic. We are supposed to be able to mod for powerful amounts of damage and be able to wreak havoc on the battlefield, that's why we're given the freedom to do so.

 

The solution is not hurting peoples play styles simply because you think it will help with "longevity" or whatever the argument is here. You don't go around nerfing people's abilities, you up the capacity and usefulness of the other powers in the kit so that there are options for the player to look at. THAT allows for diversity of powers to be used. NOT hurting them for maxing out their frames to the max potential of the play style they are going for.

All of the above simply summed up: do not harm good abilities, make bad abilities good. That's already been the cycle of development, hence why late planets have jumped to level 35-45 range. In order to accommodate the current trend of power creep, void keys need to be buffed by 20 levels, and the late level planets should be buffed to level 65-75 range.

 

What is this trying to solve? Our abilities are already strong, just not all abilities within our kit. We already run the risk of endangering the game's integrity by making it this easy. So people don't like nerf, that's okay. We just need to make the gameplay content harder and add more obstacles near the end of the solar system.

 

It's possible we may even need a game map expansion for solar systems owned by corpus/grineer/infested way above our current solar system level. As for lower level planets, a dynamic scaling system should be implemented to scale our ability attributes and damage down to lower levels so we can play alongside new players in Mercury/Venus/Earth without utterly dominating their game.

 

Ah, I think I see your perspective, now.  It's like your view matches Firefall and maybe other Warcraft copies...every person's power is somewhat limited so no single individual can just nuke a location of any enemies (thus everyone has to coordinate their powers), up to 20-person raids, requires paying attention to specific telegraphs from enemies to know when to find cover or fly out of range, not being able to one-shot heavy enemies, etc.  Is all that fairly accurate?

 

I don't think Warframe would be Warframe if it incorporated those elements...

It's not just these games, what about shooters such as Left4Dead, Counter Strike, Killing Floor, Unreal Tournament, GunZ, TF2, Insurgency, and other shooters past and current? No one player was able to take on the entire game by themselves, they had limitations of some sort. Warframe as it stands now isn't holding player interest because there's nothing to be glad about except breezing through the game to fight the RNG to get the newest prime parts. A shooter game can have teamwork too and doesn't need to be diminished to pressing only one button to beat the game and wait for the next gimmick content release.

 

 

I don't think that nerfing powers will make people feel the game has more breadth.  I do think that defeating the same grineer butcher and trooper thousands and thousands of times makes the game dry.  Regardless of AI, the opponent is pretty much going down and there isn't much of a rewarding feeling after you've figured them out.  Lephantis, Vay Hek, Vor...the joy from defeating them wanes after the first time and warframe powers versus bosses already have lesser effect compared to the cannon fodder.

 

I think people respond to feeling like their actions make a difference.  If the current Balor Fomorian event showed the individual how much of a contribution they made to taking down a Fomorian, more people would want to stick around and keep grinding at the Fomorian as if it were a boss that took more than one run to actually defeat.  Same with invasions from the 3 main factions.

 

I also think people enjoy feeling how their weapons and/or frames represent a part of themselves.  I know there are those that enjoy experimental weapons, too, like the paracyst or nukor (which I'm almost certain was meant for microwaving food, not people).  There are even fun weapons like the glaxion.

 

In order to keep players, I think the players have to feel like there's some sort of grand goal at the end besides some unlimited grind or lasting 100+ defense waves.

 

The game lacks impact of any kind. This fomorian event is the first of its kind, and there are many things wrong with it. As you've said, we don't know our contributions to the attack. We also don't get a per-mission incentive to run against these fomorians besides our event reward. The incentive should be someone any player can always get, but decent enough to be proud of. Something like XP/credit boosters, or resources like tellurium and oxium at the end of each run.

 

As for "bosses", they're just bulky enemies with weak points really. What this game needs are bosses with mechanics. Bosses that perform differently depending on how close or near you are, and with much better response times and potency than any boss we currently have now. It owuld also help if each boss was generated within a unique arena custom-built for it, so it would perform actions with the environment, making each battle feel unique.

 

There does need to be a bigger goal within the game than the current flow of insignificant content. The content doesn't mean anything, and has no value other than just having it. What about expanding upon the game's tilesets and challenges, implementing those unique bosses, and making content that means something. Hydroid, Limbo, and Mirage in a sense are the only things in the game that have unique acquisition and mean something due to questline or unique boss. The new Vay Hek was the first boss to ever get its own arena and custom mechanics within the final phase of its battle.

 

Abilities can be seen as a problem for the game at large, but it would be less of a problem if we had something significant to use them against ("end game"), and weren't able to rush low-tier content alongside new players and disgrace them (low-level co-op scaling).

Edited January 4, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

All of the above simply summed up: do not harm good abilities, make bad abilities good. That's already been the cycle of development, hence why late planets have jumped to level 35-45 range. In order to accommodate the current trend of power creep, void keys need to be buffed by 20 levels, and the late level planets should be buffed to level 65-75 range.

 

What is this trying to solve? Our abilities are already strong, just not all abilities within our kit. We already run the risk of endangering the game's integrity by making it this easy. So people don't like nerf, that's okay. We just need to make the gameplay content harder and add more obstacles near the end of the solar system.

 

 

It's not just these games, what about shooters such as Left4Dead, Counter Strike, Killing Floor, Unreal Tournament, GunZ, TF2, Insurgency, and other shooters past and current? No one player was able to take on the entire game by themselves, they had limitations of some sort. Warframe as it stands now isn't holding player interest because there's nothing to be glad about except breezing through the game to fight the RNG to get the newest prime parts. A shooter game can have teamwork too and doesn't need to be diminished to pressing only one button to beat the game and wait for the next gimmick content release.

Buff void keys, I can agree to that. It would actually make them late-game content more so than just T3 or T4. Having the void be the goal of reaching the end of the Origin System sounds like how it should be. And yeah, some of our abilities are strong, but to ensure that an entirety of a kit is a palpable option for builds, ensuring that the kit as a whole is a solid foundation is key.

 

And the integrity of this game isn't endangered. People play as they wish, that's the enjoyment of it. If it isn't fun for them they aren't going to play. And for some, utilizing and/or maximizing one power in their kit is how they want to do it. So let them do it. We don't have to, but we shouldn't punish them for it. Hurting peoples play styles simply because we believe it to be wrong is what's going to hurt the integrity and the player base more so than how it is now.

 

What kind of "obstacles" were you thinking about? If it's anything to do with nerfing powers, fair warning, I'm gonna be adamant against it unless you've got a miracle to how this is actually a good idea.

 

And the games you've listed, they're fun games, good for them and those who enjoy it. But you must remember that WarFrame is a game where players can either go through the game by themselves, with friends, or with PUGs if they wish it, that's the beauty of it. You can go through this game solo or with a squad, that's how the Devs made it, and that's a good way to make it because it doesn't force players to go with groups when all they want is to go by themselves. Also, most of those don't really compare to WarFrame because it isn't just a shooter or an RPG or an MMO or a Fantasy game, it's got aspects of that all mixed into one. You can't force an aspect of one genre into this because then you're gonna start alienating parts of the player base, (like ArchWing) thus being more contradicting to retention than helpful.

 

The beauty of the system is that we CAN become so powerful, THAT'S the point of us going through all this grinding and hell for. We are able to make ourselves extremely powerful and play to our play styles while still being powerful. If players can push through content quickly, then I'd say they've earned the right to do it if you look at how long and hard they've fought to get to that point. Upping the difficulty is an option, sure, but I'd rather we had more interesting mechanics in late-game enemies that make them more tactical to fight. Still, you need to remember that the pace of this game is extremely fast, as such having enemies that you need to fight tediously might not be the best option.

[Nighttide77]

Gameplay doesn't feel rewarding if there's nothing to be proud, no reason to refine yourself to be a better player/person, and no reason to care about what's next.

 

...

 

However, the mark of a good game allows us to feel powerful and challenged at the same time. We need an element of that in warframe, where the game doesn't just look cool, but you feel like you've matured in the game to use certain strategies that require attention and dexterity instead of mashing a single button to solve all your problems.

 

Not to pick at you or anything, but I don't agree with these statements, which I think might be the foundation for your arguments and maybe the arguments of others.

 

For me, gameplay feels immensely rewarding when I start a match with an Ogris and the right placed shot lights up the screen with affinity numbers.  Gameplay is also incredibly rewarding when I Rhino Stomp and I have to wait a second for the computer to calculate the fact that a couple dozen enemies just got damaged and CC'd at the same time.  I don't need a sense of accomplishment, because the fun is in the arsenal, itself.  If I need to feel like I overcame a challenge that required some mental/physical exertion, I'd play a puzzle game or do something in real life, like getting stronger so I can wield a sword that looks like Warframe's Gram.

 

If Warframe was meant to be a game of mind-breaking challenges and immense teamwork, it wouldn't be what it is, now.  It'd be more like a futuristic Shadow of the Colossus with up to 20-person co-op and new epic bosses released once a month.

 

At the same time, however, the beauty of Warframe is that each person has the flexibility to choose whether they want to be challenged.  The game allows people to decide whether they want their ultimate to nuke a place or not.  If someone wants to be proud of taking a mod-empty Loki into a survival mission for one hour, they can easily do that.  If they so choose, they could even record and YouTube it, though that probably doesn't do much for their personality or person.  Forced challenge, however, will probably turn a lot of the player-base off, including myself.

[AlphaHorseman]

Not to pick at you or anything, but I don't agree with these statements, which I think might be the foundation for your arguments and maybe the arguments of others.

 

For me, gameplay feels immensely rewarding when I start a match with an Ogris and the right placed shot lights up the screen with affinity numbers.  Gameplay is also incredibly rewarding when I Rhino Stomp and I have to wait a second for the computer to calculate the fact that a couple dozen enemies just got damaged and CC'd at the same time.  I don't need a sense of accomplishment, because the fun is in the arsenal, itself.  If I need to feel like I overcame a challenge that required some mental/physical exertion, I'd play a puzzle game or do something in real life, like getting stronger so I can wield a sword that looks like Warframe's Gram.

 

If Warframe was meant to be a game of mind-breaking challenges and immense teamwork, it wouldn't be what it is, now.  It'd be more like a futuristic Shadow of the Colossus with up to 20-person co-op and new epic bosses released once a month.

 

At the same time, however, the beauty of Warframe is that each person has the flexibility to choose whether they want to be challenged.  The game allows people to decide whether they want their ultimate to nuke a place or not.  If someone wants to be proud of taking a mod-empty Loki into a survival mission for one hour, they can easily do that.  If they so choose, they could even record and YouTube it, though that probably doesn't do much for their personality or person.  Forced challenge, however, will probably turn a lot of the player-base off, including myself.

+1 Especially the bold.