Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Tsukinoki]

This is kind of what I was getting at. There are some other enemies, that will also stunlock you to oblivion - ie: grineer marines and corpus prod-men.

 

Perhaps we could have some sort of automatic 'rage' effect? If your frame gets stunned three times in a row say, they pick themselves up, and slam the ground / do a pivot kick. Doing a small AOE effect which stuns, but dosn't damage all enemies in a small radius around you. Perhaps even different frames could do different animations. 

 

I can see Rhino doing a ground-slam, Ember cloaking in flames, Mag doing a spinning kick, or a magnetic pulse, Banshee shrieking in frustration, and Volt slapping everyone in the face.  

If it'll prevent an endless stunlock and being forced to just sit there and watch as your health and shields are taken away without the option to do anything then I'll vote for it.

[AndryB94]

Sorry for not actively replying. Was busy "In real life".
 

Two suggestions to make rollers a bit less of a pain in the &#!:

 

1) Remember how enemies become immune to knockdown effects (at least jump attacks) for a certain amount of time after they've been knocked down? A similar principle may be applied to roller attacks versus players. If we've been stunned by a roller, give us a couple seconds of breathing room to retaliate instead of being chain-stunned by the other 3 rollers scooting around the area.

 

2) Make rollers slow down by ~50% as long as they're taking a turn so as to make it actually feasible to hit them. You can't always "run away from them in a straight line", either because of map design or because you need to defend an objective. They should still move at their full speed when going straight and leaping at a player.

 

I'd like to see them modified ("nerfed' if you will) in some such form, but they're not the worst thing in the world. Even if they stay the way they currently are, I'll live.

That, or do a system similar to what MMORPGs do: Any consecutive stagger will be reduced, time-wise, by a certain amount, until (after like 5 staggers) they have no effect for a little while.

[11.11.11]

Ok further thoughts after solo'ing a mobile defence: 

 

- Rollers need some sort of physics coding to stop them maintaining a constant full speed as they roll around you. They shouldn't be able to execute pin-point turns, or orbit the player at full speed. The tighter the turn the slower the grinder should go. I know there was an update to slow their speed when they do a 180 but this doesn't seem to have effected their general turning circle. 

 

- As I said before, there needs to be some sort of stun-cancelling effect. All it takes is two rollers to effectively keep me trapped in endless stuns. And it's no use saying "well you should shoot them before they get to you" because sometimes thats unrealistic. I may be too busy dealing with the 5-10 grineer shooting AT ME, or the roller may have popped out from behind a door. 

 

- Grinders should NOT stun the player simply by touching them. Their stun effect should only occur when they leap at the player with their blades EXTENDED. The amount/duration of the stun should be effected by the grinders current speed. My big strong Mag shouldn't be knocked asunder by a grinder that bumps gently against her leg. 

 

 

And I can confirm, there is nothing more satisfying than killing a grinder with a mini-grinder-bomb. 

Edited May 1, 2013 by 11.11.11

[Eightlock]

Make them explode on hit, just like runners, there, problem solved. /thread

Edited May 2, 2013 by Eightlock

[KoboldCommando]

This idea just hit me, thought I'd post it here.  Rollers and other stuns are incredibly annoying and I'd like nothing more than to see them gone completely, but here's an idea if you have to keep them:

 

Every time the rollers hit a player and stagger them, they lose some portion of their health, effectively killing themselves as they attack.  Thus, rollers are still a huge annoyance and extremely deadly, but they aren't a perpetual stunlock-field that force you to play "the floor is lava" for the rest of the mission.  Sure you can let them hit you a few times to soften them up, or hide in a corner to let them kill themselves, but you can already more or less do that already and just shoot them, and they're still serving their purpose while this happens.

Edited May 1, 2013 by KoboldCommando

[Huitzil]

adapt or perish

I want you, and every single person who has ever even thought of posting a message like this, to do me a favor.

 

The next time there's a thread about changing something in this game that is still in beta because it's hard or unfun, and you feel compelled to post a response amounting to "it's fine you just need to be better at the game," I want you to instead go to your kitchen, pour yourself a nice cool glass of lemonade, and then slam the refrigerator door closed on your hand repeatedly until the urge to be a pompous, patronizing idiot goes away.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I want you, and every single person who has ever even thought of posting a message like this, to do me a favor.

 

The next time there's a thread about changing something in this game that is still in beta because it's hard or unfun, and you feel compelled to post a response amounting to "it's fine you just need to be better at the game," I want you to instead go to your kitchen, pour yourself a nice cool glass of lemonade, and then slam the refrigerator door closed on your hand repeatedly until the urge to be a pompous, patronizing idiot goes away.

 

And what exactly is wrong with somebody wanting other people to gain skill in a game? A large part of any game is becoming better at it. And it's certainly not a reason to get cheeky with somebody else over it. Rollers, and every other enemy in Warframe, are meant to present a challenge and perform a punishment if the challenge is not met. You are supposed to learn and get better against Rollers. Instead this "vocal majority" seem intent on refusing to learn from mistakes in-game and would rather nerf perhaps the only vaguely challenging thing about fighting Grineer.

 

The flaw in a lot of the argument surrounding Rollers is that, while a vocal majority apparently dislike them (for reasons which end up being boiled down to "I don't like being punished for performing poorly in a game"), there is also a majority of people who do not have any problems at all with Rollers, because they either realize their purpose and accept it as DE intended it to be, or are skilled enough to have reached a point where Rollers are not much of a problem. It would be different if the entire Warframe community expressed their distaste of Rollers, but that isn't the case in any way, shape or form.

 

I do not have problems with Rollers. I fight them often enough, I'll get bumped by them plenty, but I don't throw my mouse down in frustration when it's always my own fault. I can see them coming from their distinguishable profile, bright color and visual sparks. I can hear their unique rolling sound effect, which is accompanied by an equally unique blade-like SHNK. I have more tools than I can even name off that I can use to effectively defend myself against Rollers. Every player has these, and every player is fully capable of dealing with Rollers as they currently are. The only differentiating factor is player skill.

 

So anyone telling you to "Get Better" isn't incorrect. Every player is capable of getting better at the game. Some just get there sooner than others.

Edited May 2, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[BobDillinger]

-snip-

There's a rather large difference between a well-designed challenging enemy and a frustrating one who you can't do anything against.

I'll use myself as an example; I can solo pluto fairly well, I can beat some levels without dying once and some I can't.

But you know what happens when a swarm of rollers hits me? I get stun-locked, each one taking a turn to hit me, so I can't break out of their attack cycle all the while I get gunned down by grineer. Now tell me, in what way can I get better at something, when the games takes total control away from me?

[MoonicusMaximus]

There's a rather large difference between a well-designed challenging enemy and a frustrating one who you can't do anything against.

 

Rollers are hardly an enemy you "can't do anything against".

 

They are predictable in attack pattern, very low on health, easily distinguished from groups, and only have a single way of delivering damage to you.

 

It's very easy to put yourself into a position to kill them as they make a straight line towards you to attack you. That and a decent amount of aim is all you really need.

 

I'll use myself as an example; I can solo pluto fairly well, I can beat some levels without dying once and some I can't.

 

Currently, levels are not balanced towards solo play. That could be the beginning of your problems. Enemy numbers and compositions will vary depending on difficulty and that difficulty level does not accommodate solo play at this time in the beta.

 

In other words, when you select to solo a mission, you are deliberately asking for a more difficult challenge.

 

 

But you know what happens when a swarm of rollers hits me?

 

Your first mistake is letting them hit you. If you were too busy dealing with other enemies and a Roller snuck up on you (which becomes increasingly more difficult to do as the number of Rollers increases), then that Roller did its job while you failed to have proper awareness of your surroundings. Situational awareness is a big part of the combat in Warframe, as is the ability to quickly assess your situation and delivery a proper counter. If your awareness is poor, you are punished for it.

 

Alternatively, assuming you knew they were coming, should have immediately began putting distance between yourself and the Rollers to gain a better firing angle, or readied an ability to deal with them.

 

 

I get stun-locked, each one taking a turn to hit me, so I can't break out of their attack cycle all the while I get gunned down by grineer.

 

Rollers do not "take turns". They don't have the AI that facilitates them attacking you in predetermined patterns in relation to one-another; they act as individuals, not a team or group.

 

The stun imparted by Rollers is the shortest in the game, little more than a stagger, which expires in a single second. While it is possible to be staggered multiple times, you are almost always given an opportunity to escape due to their erratic attack patterns. In which case, you should have spent it dodge-rolling and relocating, rather than the worst possible strategy; standing still and aiming, hoping to kill one at its own optimal range before it knocks you around again.

 

This is all still during the punishment for being caught off guard in the first place, and for playing solo.

 

 

Now tell me, in what way can I get better at something, when the games takes total control away from me?

 

Several ways.

 

Better situational awareness, for one, is a pretty obvious must. See Rollers before they get to you. Hear them before they reach you from a blind side. Defeat Rollers before they are able to bring you into their ball-field.

 

Better use of your mobility and abilities. You can outrun Rollers on most Frames for as long as your sprint holds, at which point you should have come to a better area to properly engage them. Every warframe has an ability that allows for an easier time dealing with Rollers.

 

Patience. During lulls between Roller attacks, dodge-roll away and relocate. Do not stand in the middle of a group of Rollers and suddenly expect to somehow deal with them when you let yourself be brought into this position in the first place. Wait for ideal times to attack Rollers when they are heading straight for you, rather than shooting at them while they are turning.

 

Knowing your limits for a final word. If you are playing solo at higher levels, where unit variety includes most if not all of the special units in plentiful numbers, you are asking for a more difficult experience (at least until DE properly tweaks solo play for actual solo play). Do not be surprised that you're being tossed around when you explicitly signed up for it.

Edited May 2, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[smithf]

Just want to put up what I think is a fair word.

I think Rollers are challenging but NOT that hard to deal with. And I am not really an action-game oriented player (Warframe being one of the few games that don't make me motion sick... unless I am using Scindo...) So I don't belong to those "just have better skill" category, neither am I always loaded with all max-leveled potatoed equipment.

 

But I compensate. Maximus's post above captures quite a lot of the things I do. One of the most effective thing I find (whether against rollers or hordes of ancients) is to know when to retreat, which I don't understand why some players are so against to. If I see one lone Roller, I will try to fight it. If there are other normal enemies around, I will try to take them down first. If there are more than 1 Rollers and I do not have support nearby, I will retreat or go ways that Rollers may not follow directly (wall-run, climb up stuff, jump down from high ground, take elevator etc).

 

As for progress, I have unlocked most of Pluto's missions so I can sort of say that I have seen most of the game.

And imo, Rollers aren't that bad. They are also usually manageable, if the Tenno are more careful (there are always those #### times where random events just coincide to troll us. e.g. Rollers (multiple) then a visit from Stalker...) If this were Nervo, I would vote that they be removed (which they already are, fortunately...). But I think removing/nerfing Rollers will be removing part of the challenge. I am emphatize with the frustration of being "stun-locked" (like I've said, I'm not action-game-orientated), but when I manage to survive/kill the Rollers through different experimentations of strategies, the sense of accomplishment is that I think I play a game for.

 

Perhaps Rollers can be tweaked so that it will improve the game experience (not just simply to make it ignorably easy), but I vote for keeping them, those blasted balls with teeth...

[BobDillinger]

Rollers are hardly an enemy you "can't do anything against".

 

They are predictable in attack pattern, very low on health, easily distinguished from groups, and only have a single way of delivering damage to you.

 

It's very easy to put yourself into a position to kill them as they make a straight line towards you to attack you. That and a decent amount of aim is all you really need.

 

 

Currently, levels are not balanced towards solo play. That could be the beginning of your problems. Enemy numbers and compositions will vary depending on difficulty and that difficulty level does not accommodate solo play at this time in the beta.

 

In other words, when you select to solo a mission, you are deliberately asking for a more difficult challenge.

 

 

 

Your first mistake is letting them hit you. If you were too busy dealing with other enemies and a Roller snuck up on you (which becomes increasingly more difficult to do as the number of Rollers increases), then that Roller did its job while you failed to have proper awareness of your surroundings. Situational awareness is a big part of the combat in Warframe, as is the ability to quickly assess your situation and delivery a proper counter. If your awareness is poor, you are punished for it.

 

Alternatively, assuming you knew they were coming, should have immediately began putting distance between yourself and the Rollers to gain a better firing angle, or readied an ability to deal with them.

 

 

 

Rollers do not "take turns". They don't have the AI that facilitates them attacking you in predetermined patterns in relation to one-another; they act as individuals, not a team or group.

 

The stun imparted by Rollers is the shortest in the game, little more than a stagger, which expires in a single second. While it is possible to be staggered multiple times, you are almost always given an opportunity to escape due to their erratic attack patterns. In which case, you should have spent it dodge-rolling and relocating, rather than the worst possible strategy; standing still and aiming, hoping to kill one at its own optimal range before it knocks you around again.

 

This is all still during the punishment for being caught off guard in the first place, and for playing solo.

 

 

 

Several ways.

 

Better situational awareness, for one, is a pretty obvious must. See Rollers before they get to you. Hear them before they reach you from a blind side. Defeat Rollers before they are able to bring you into their ball-field.

 

Better use of your mobility and abilities. You can outrun Rollers on most Frames for as long as your sprint holds, at which point you should have come to a better area to properly engage them. Every warframe has an ability that allows for an easier time dealing with Rollers.

 

Patience. During lulls between Roller attacks, dodge-roll away and relocate. Do not stand in the middle of a group of Rollers and suddenly expect to somehow deal with them when you let yourself be brought into this position in the first place. Wait for ideal times to attack Rollers when they are heading straight for you, rather than shooting at them while they are turning.

 

Knowing your limits for a final word. If you are playing solo at higher levels, where unit variety includes most if not all of the special units in plentiful numbers, you are asking for a more difficult experience (at least until DE properly tweaks solo play for actual solo play). Do not be surprised that you're being tossed around when you explicitly signed up for it.

 

A) I am aware levels aren't balanced towards Solo play, I actually prefer it, I find online to be a rush to the exit with no challenge between point a and b.

B) I don't try to let them hit me, but when I'm doing battle against enemies with a varied composition one slips past and hits me, that stagger is fine, and go ahead and punish me for it by letting me take damage from other sources, the issue comes up when multiple rollers start closing in after that first one hits which leads to the next issue

C) Whether or not Rollers are designed to do it, they will essentially take turns striking you, one after another, rolling around in a big circle and hitting me one at a time. I've seen this happen to entire teams online, a stunlock circle and this is where rollers actually become an issue.

 

groups of Rollers create artificial difficulty, you can be gunning down a swarm only for one to hit you and then the survivors hit you and so on and so far.

 

I'm asking for them to be removed, I think the problem could easily be solved by adding 2-3 second stagger immunity after getting hit by the first roller, that way player who gets hit has enough time to pull out from the rest of the swarm but a moronic player who just stays in one spot will just get hit again.

Edited May 2, 2013 by BobDillinger

[AftieI]

groups of Rollers create artificial difficulty, you can be gunning down a swarm only for one to hit you and then the survivors hit you and so on and so far.

You have chances to escape/avoid/destroy every roller as it potentially hits you as long as you have a remotely decent warframe set up, every warframe has a fast cast ability that can deal with them in some way, loki can swap teleport stealth and/or decoy (im not sure how radial disarm interacts with rollers tbh) Frost can use Snowglobe which slows rollers and protects him from gunfire from grineer while he deals with the annoying bastards, Excalibur... he can super jump out,  he can slash dash and kill them all he can stun them with blind and he can use his 4 all of his abilites can deal with a pack of rollers, Ember can use her 2 or her 3 or her 4 to destroy them all, Volt can super speed out or ult and annhalate them all, banshee can use her 1 to push them back or her 4 to break all the things, Ash can teleport out, stealth and ult, Rhino can charge, invunerability stomp and ult all of which will deal with rollers, Mag only can ult, Nyx can use her 3 or her ult, Saryn can moult, potentially use her 1 if you're good and fast, or ult, and Trinity can just use link and let them kill eachother for you.

 

Every frame can deal with them just fine, the only question is do you know how to use your frame? I see so many people in Excalibur (IMO the most OP frame) and they never use slash dash except as an escape, me? I slash dash all the damn time, it only costs 25 energy and thats easily picked up by almost any group of enemies you kill. I can keep going on things people don't do in their frames that they should, your abilites are there to keep you alive and to help you kill enemies, not just to make pretty effects when you're waiting for the team to catch up to you at the extraction point.

[Chichi.Yosimase]

My Excalibur's Radial Javelin won't even hit them !

[AftieI]

My Excalibur's Radial Javelin won't even hit them !

Really? Mine hits them just fine, doesn't pin them to the wall since they explode, but it kills them all the same.

[Chichi.Yosimase]

Well sometimes but maybe it's just because of the lag.

[Huitzil]

 

 

So anyone telling you to "Get Better" isn't incorrect. Every player is capable of getting better at the game. Some just get there sooner than others.

 

This game is in beta. The point of a beta is to refine the gameplay. The game is a free-to-play game, which means it MUST appeal to as broad an audience as possible, because the "whales" who constitute most of the income from a F2P game don't consider themselves hardcore gamers, and there has to be a large established playerbase to be teammates with or spending money on the game is pointless.

 

If a bunch of players say "this enemy is annoying and isn't fun to fight," THEY ARE RIGHT. Period. There is absolutely no area for discussion. It doesn't matter how much you, mister elite awesomesauce player, think it's okay to have this obnoxious and unfun enemy because there's some way of dealing with it. If any significant quantity of players, of a game that has to appeal to as many people as possible, and a game that is in beta specifically so you can tweak or overhaul mechanics, aren't having fun with something -- then you have done something wrong and that needs to be changed.

[Xianyu]

I think they should halve the speed and double the damage. Make them easier to hit but much more dangerous.

 

Right now the only problem is that they move so damn fast and they're so f-ing unpredictable.

[Huitzil]

They move so damn fast, they're unpredictable, they're tiny, AND THEY STUNLOCK YOU. The stunlock is the problem as much as the speed and the hitbox size.

 

There shouldn't BE stunlock in this game. If you want enemies to interrupt animations, fine, but we should be able to cancel the "stagger" animation by starting an action of our own. So an enemy can knock you out of your charge attack / skill cast, but you aren't standing there reeling, you immediately start doing something else. 

[Madotsuki]

Xianyu, on 02 May 2013 - 9:41 PM, said:

I think they should halve the speed and double the damage. Make them easier to hit but much more dangerous.

Right now the only problem is that they move so damn fast and they're so f-ing unpredictable.

If that was done, they'd still be boring, even though they'd be much less frustrating. Rollers need to be tweaked in a way that makes them challenging, but FUN, not just nerf their speed and make them 10 times easier to hit with no effort. I mean, if Roller speed was halved, DE may as well just outright remove the enemy.

I already gave my suggestion on how Rollers should be tweaked earlier, so i won't repeat again here :P

[11.11.11]

I think I missed the meat of the discussion a few posts back, but I'd like to chuck out my $0.02 anyway, because I think it's a perspective that hasn't been offered so far.

 

- Is there validity in the argument that - grinders are intentionally difficult to deal with - this is their merit. Players have to learn to adapt to an enemy that is fast, small, and capable of stunning them. Do whatever it takes - retreat, stand on boxes, even use their ultimate early. 

 

Yes - this is a valid point. Nobody wants to see enemies simplified to the the point at which all challenge exits the game with nary a backwards glance. 

 

But grinders are currently so frustrating, so irksome - not because they are fast, or small, or unlike any other enemy in the game. I, and I think most people, don't hate them because they're balls, or because they spawn too much. We don't dislike them because they force us to retreat, stand on boxes or use our powers against a couple of low HP enemies.

 

My problem - and I think a lot of people share it - is that grinders in their current form - are akin to the infected in early releases. I'm sure everyone remembers those days. Where you'd join a server, and the other three Tenno would all be standing on a pile of crates, looking at you like:  

 

As you ran around trying to fight the horde on ground level.

 

 

In the old days, it was simply mental to try and fight the infected unless you were well out of their reach. Lvl 30 gear or no. The game didn't reward you for being an amazing shot, or a skilled swordsman, you would get pummeled regardless. You were forced to get on a crate.

 

 

Someone earlier in this post said that grinders add challenge to the game, and that we should respect this as it rewards skilled players. 

 

Any enemy that removes my control of my character. Is not even giving me the chance to prove my 'skill'. Sure there are workarounds. I can shoot them at a distance, if I have the luxury. I can wall-run over them, retreat, use my powers, or maybe even....stand...on...a......crate. 

 

Workarounds are for problems. Not challenging and rewarding enemies. If some of the suggestions on this thread regarding regressing the grinders stun effect were implemented, or maybe even removing it all together - they would become, challenging, rewarding enemies. Until then, they're practically hard-coded lag spikes that rob the player of control. Nobody calls an artist 'unskilled' if someone jolts their elbow every couple of minutes. Of course their painting is going to end up a mess. 

[mKta]

I love those balls from hell. And I love the evil bastards who designed them. Seriously guys I love them.

[AftieI]

 

In the old days, it was simply mental to try and fight the infected unless you were well out of their reach. Lvl 30 gear or no. The game didn't reward you for being an amazing shot, or a skilled swordsman, you would get pummeled regardless. You were forced to get on a crate.

 

 

Someone earlier in this post said that grinders add challenge to the game, and that we should respect this as it rewards skilled players. 

 

Any enemy that removes my control of my character. Is not even giving me the chance to prove my 'skill'. Sure there are workarounds. I can shoot them at a distance, if I have the luxury. I can wall-run over them, retreat, use my powers, or maybe even....stand...on...a......crate. 

 

Workarounds are for problems. Not challenging and rewarding enemies. If some of the suggestions on this thread regarding regressing the grinders stun effect were implemented, or maybe even removing it all together - they would become, challenging, rewarding enemies. Until then, they're practically hard-coded lag spikes that rob the player of control. Nobody calls an artist 'unskilled' if someone jolts their elbow every couple of minutes. Of course their painting is going to end up a mess. 

except that any one with a half built Lato can shoot down 3 or 4 of them before they get to you if you're a decent shot. The problem alot of people have with rollers is that they just charge heedlessly into rooms and so are in the thick of them before they can react to them. If people took a little more time when moving from area to area (especially if Lotus gives you a heads up first) you wouldn't have any issues with the little bastards, outside of certian cirumstances (such as defense missions)

[11.11.11]

except that any one with a half built Lato can shoot down 3 or 4 of them before they get to you if you're a decent shot. The problem alot of people have with rollers is that they just charge heedlessly into rooms and so are in the thick of them before they can react to them. If people took a little more time when moving from area to area (especially if Lotus gives you a heads up first) you wouldn't have any issues with the little bastards, outside of certain circumstances (such as defense missions)

 

Lotus dosn't give you heads-up explicitly about grinders. Perhaps she should...

 

I still do a lot of solo play, and you're right, being more reserved and cautious in your approach lessens their threat when compared to 4-person rush-fests. But even taking the cold, slow, methodical approach, I still get locked into corners by two grinders that popped out of a door. Or forced to jump on some crates as a flock of them tear around the corner - which leaves me open to get pummeled by all the Grineer in the room. 

 

I understand if this hasn't been your experience, but it has been mine, and some other people's. For an enemy to be balanced "outside of certain circumstances" is another to say - it ISN'T balanced. And we get this is beta, hence why we're eager to see DE tweak this. 

[MoonicusMaximus]

 

This game is in beta. The point of a beta is to refine the gameplay. The game is a free-to-play game, which means it MUST appeal to as broad an audience as possible, because the "whales" who constitute most of the income from a F2P game don't consider themselves hardcore gamers, and there has to be a large established playerbase to be teammates with or spending money on the game is pointless.

 

Removing Rollers wouldn't "refine" diddly squat. In fact, the removal of Rollers would only serve to stagnate the gameplay even further than it dangerously is. Grineer do not have a surplus of unit types with which they change the way gameplay is presented to you; all of their units are humanoid and nearly all of them use ranged weapons. The effective strategies to counter that sort of enemy boil down to simple covershooting. Without Rollers, hiding behind boxes and popshotting Grineer would be the only thing we would need to do to actually defeat them. This game is in beta, and more units need to be added to present a wider variety of gameplay, not removed to further stagnate it.

 

Nobody actually quits the game because of Rollers. They just complain about them accomplishing their intended purpose of disrupting the player rather than killing them. It's annoying for a specific purpose.

 

 

If a bunch of players say "this enemy is annoying and isn't fun to fight," THEY ARE RIGHT. Period. There is absolutely no area for discussion. It doesn't matter how much you, mister elite awesomesauce player, think it's okay to have this obnoxious and unfun enemy because there's some way of dealing with it. If any significant quantity of players, of a game that has to appeal to as many people as possible, and a game that is in beta specifically so you can tweak or overhaul mechanics, aren't having fun with something -- then you have done something wrong and that needs to be changed.

 

If a bunch of players say "Rollers are annoying" then they are right, because that's their goddamn job. I didn't realize enemies in a game were meant to facilitate your enjoyment through directly tickling you and dropping money; I thought that enemies were present to provide challenge through gameplay. To me and other players, fun is derived from challenge, and Rollers provide challenge in the Grineer faction that was not previously there, and if removed, will remove variety and layers to combat present when facing Grineer.

 

It's funny that you think I'm a 'mister elite awesomesauce player' as well, because I never described myself as being one. I specifically stated that I have no problems with Rollers because I've learned how to deal with them, and I specifically stated that anyone and everyone is capable of what I do and capable of learning how to do it. I don't think I'm inherently better than other people, but I do think that I know more about Rollers than most of the people who complain about them, and I believe they are fine as they are. They provide variety and challenge, and through that, they provide fun.

 

 

I think they should halve the speed and double the damage. Make them easier to hit but much more dangerous.

 

Right now the only problem is that they move so damn fast and they're so f-ing unpredictable.

They move so damn fast, they're unpredictable, they're tiny, AND THEY STUNLOCK YOU. The stunlock is the problem as much as the speed and the hitbox size.

 

There shouldn't BE stunlock in this game. If you want enemies to interrupt animations, fine, but we should be able to cancel the "stagger" animation by starting an action of our own. So an enemy can knock you out of your charge attack / skill cast, but you aren't standing there reeling, you immediately start doing something else. 

 

Rollers actually impart next to no damage to you whatsoever. You will never die because of the direct damage a Roller imparts on you.

 

Instead of damage, which every single other unit in the Grineer specializes in, Rollers impart a special punishment for failing to act upon them. That punishment is staggering you, which compliments the challenge given by Grineer rather than simply melting into it. However, because they do next to no damage, being fast and small is pretty much their only saving grace. If they were made larger or slower, they would simply to too easy to deal with to the point where they would become irrelevant.

 

 

Yes - this is a valid point. Nobody wants to see enemies simplified to the the point at which all challenge exits the game with nary a backwards glance. 

 

But grinders are currently so frustrating, so irksome - not because they are fast, or small, or unlike any other enemy in the game. I, and I think most people, don't hate them because they're balls, or because they spawn too much. We don't dislike them because they force us to retreat, stand on boxes or use our powers against a couple of low HP enemies.

 

My problem - and I think a lot of people share it - is that grinders in their current form - are akin to the infected in early releases.

 

Just because an enemy is of low HP does not make it inherently more or less lethal or docile. The unit type is different from your average Grineer; Rollers are essentially in the same class of special unit that Heavy Gunners and Grineer Commanders stand upon, the only difference being that both Heavy Gunners and Grineer Commanders are simply dealt with in a much easier with less required work. In my opinion, DE should buff both Heavy Gunners and Commanders to the point where I actually have to worry about them in the same fashion that I worry about Rollers with. The fact that their HP is low doesn't mean they should be easy to deal with universally, only that they have a weakness that matches their strengths; in the Rollers case, their biggest weakness just happens to be bullets, with good aim and proper strategy.

 

Rollers don't force players to do anything, either. It, again, comes down to player skill. If I see Rollers coming, I immediately switch my attention to them and, depending on the environment and distance at which I've spotted them, can deal with them quite handily. I'm not forced to run away from them, I make the choice to run away from them if I feel it is the best strategy for dealing with them, or I use a skill, or I just simply sidestep them and pop them on the turn-around. It depends on my surroundings, my level of skill and my confidence in the situation. The level of the players skill will directly affect which strategies they will use when dealing with Rollers, and there isn't a single set of strategies that apply to everyone beyond "you gotta kill it". Players who are less-than-efficient with their weapons may jump on boxes. Other players may pop two Rollers at once with a single puncture Paris arrow while wallrunning.

 

Rollers also do not spawn nearly as often as Runners and Chargers. Not even close. They appear rather infrequently unless the random spawns deal you an unlucky card... but even in this case, you still have all the tools needed to deal with it.

 

 

Someone earlier in this post said that grinders add challenge to the game, and that we should respect this as it rewards skilled players. 

 

Any enemy that removes my control of my character. Is not even giving me the chance to prove my 'skill'. Sure there are workarounds. I can shoot them at a distance, if I have the luxury. I can wall-run over them, retreat, use my powers, or maybe even....stand...on...a......crate. 

 

Workarounds are for problems. Not challenging and rewarding enemies. If some of the suggestions on this thread regarding regressing the grinders stun effect were implemented, or maybe even removing it all together - they would become, challenging, rewarding enemies. Until then, they're practically hard-coded lag spikes that rob the player of control. Nobody calls an artist 'unskilled' if someone jolts their elbow every couple of minutes. Of course their painting is going to end up a mess. 

 

If a Roller staggers you, you've already lost your opportunity to use your player skill, but you will be presented with more opportunities. Rollers spend 99% of their life attempting to get to you, and with the Tenno's wide range of mobility options, you can extend that time indefinitely, or just off the sucker before he even has a chance. The time prior to the Roller buffing your bottom is your window of opportunity to use and abuse your skill as a player, not after it has already punished you for poor play.

 

What you call workarounds, I call strategy through gameplay. Is shooting a Grineer Lancer in the face instead of the foot a workaround to you? It's a problem to kill Grineer Lancers in any other fashion, as they have heavy armor in every area but the head. Rollers aren't problems, they are enemies, just like other Grineer. It's not a workaround when you deal with a challenge imparted to you by a unit that uses a different style of attack against you in a different manner than other units.

 

Removal of the Roller's stun would only serve to make its entire purpose worthless and irrelevant. No other Grineer unit type does what Rollers do. Having Rollers simply do damage is just a removal of variety. Every single Grineer unit aside from the Roller specializes in dealing damage to you; Warframe needs MORE variety, not less of it, and stagger effects in this manner accomplish that task.

 

 

Lotus dosn't give you heads-up explicitly about grinders. Perhaps she should...

 

I still do a lot of solo play, and you're right, being more reserved and cautious in your approach lessens their threat when compared to 4-person rush-fests. But even taking the cold, slow, methodical approach, I still get locked into corners by two grinders that popped out of a door. Or forced to jump on some crates as a flock of them tear around the corner - which leaves me open to get pummeled by all the Grineer in the room. 

 

I understand if this hasn't been your experience, but it has been mine, and some other people's. For an enemy to be balanced "outside of certain circumstances" is another to say - it ISN'T balanced. And we get this is beta, hence why we're eager to see DE tweak this. 

 

Warframe isn't balanced around the solo experience. And in my opinion, it never should be. It's meant to be a cooperative game, and Rollers are much more easily combated with group of Tenno. You can still solo, but until DE finds a way to (or even wants to) balance the single-player experience, you will be soloing content meant for more than one player, and the game should not change to reflect those experiences.

Edited May 2, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Huitzil]

Removing Rollers wouldn't "refine" diddly squat. In fact, the removal of Rollers would only serve to stagnate the gameplay even further than it dangerously is. Grineer do not have a surplus of unit types with which they change the way gameplay is presented to you; all of their units are humanoid and nearly all of them use ranged weapons. The effective strategies to counter that sort of enemy boil down to simple covershooting. Without Rollers, hiding behind boxes and popshotting Grineer would be the only thing we would need to do to actually defeat them. This game is in beta, and more units need to be added to present a wider variety of gameplay, not removed to further stagnate it.

 

Nobody actually quits the game because of Rollers. They just complain about them accomplishing their intended purpose of disrupting the player rather than killing them. It's annoying for a specific purpose.

 

 

 

If a bunch of players say "Rollers are annoying" then they are right, because that's their goddamn job. I didn't realize enemies in a game were meant to facilitate your enjoyment through directly tickling you and dropping money; I thought that enemies were present to provide challenge through gameplay. To me and other players, fun is derived from challenge, and Rollers provide challenge in the Grineer faction that was not previously there, and if removed, will remove variety and layers to combat present when facing Grineer.

 

 

Okay, first off, if anything's "job" is to be annoying, then its job is STUPID and nothing should be doing that job. Second, you cannot differentiate between challenge and annoyance. A challenge is fun. Annoyance is not. A challenge seems fair, an annoyance does not. By claiming that someone who wants an annoyance removed wants enemies to "facilitate your enjoyment through directly tickling you and dropping money" is, well, it's not even stupid, you are lying and you know you are lying. 

 

Dark Souls is challenging. Bayonetta is challenging. XCOM is challenging. Each of those games are hard, but when something bad happens to you, it is something that you could have prevented with better play and (this is important) it doesn't deform how you play the game and the penalty isn't drastically out of proportion to what you did wrong. Things that are more devastating are easier to dodge or avoid, and have more warning when they are coming. Avoiding something terrible doesn't require you to suddenly switch around behavior that, until now, had been how you play the game well. If you want an enemy that breaks up the pattern of Grineer and requires better tactics to fight, then you should ask for an enemy that isn't so annoying and unfair and doesn't work by taking your ability to play the game away.