A Message To De: It's Ok To Be Normal

[Yazeth]

     For DE, Warframe was suppose to be a unique game that was different from the rest, with systems that had yet to be seen. The only issue is, while focusing on uniqueness, DE forgot about the basics.

 

     In MMOs, we can see a lot of the same mechanics being reused, or at least similar to such, such as End Game, Game Modes, etc.. With DE, they seem to tried to take a spin on this. For end game, DE released Syndicates and Dark Sectors, and the Focus System is coming soon as well. For Game Modes, we've seen unique stuff as Hijack and Archwing. Though, this is where the issue becomes apparant.

 

     DE currently has no clear idea for end game, and I can see why. It is hard to create something unique, while not being the same as others. End game is widely used in games to extend content, basically. In RPGs, we mainly see Raids, additional grind for power, etc.. In FPS, we see competitions against top players, for the most part. DE seemed to have tried to do both by adding Syndicate for grinding for power, and Dark Sectors for PvP. But, the current issue is that the "end game" DE has currently given us provides no real good incentives to actually perform, unlike other end games we've seen in a lot of the common MMOs we've seen. So, they are seen as measly additions, rather than something big like they were suppose to be.

 

     DE had tried to be unique with their game mods. I will be using Hijack and Archwing for my reasoning. Both of these missions are unique, and are pretty fun to play as well. But, like the "end game" that we have now, they also provide no real incentives as well. Hijack mission is the same as any other quick missions (Capture, Extermination, etc.), and they are basically forgotten. Archwing, although rather popular, also provides no real incentive to play, as it does not actually tie into the game at all. Even though these two mission types were introduced in such a flashy way (Events), they do not benefit the game at all, unless you consider retaining only small percentages of the player base to the game to be successful.

 

     What I feel that DE should do for the meantime is to put large focus into The Focus system, and to bring it out as they now currently plan it to be. It would be a waste of time to scrap that idea yet another time and to redo it again. But, what I would like for DE to do in the future is this:

 

1) Actual End Game.

 

     This can be simply as Raids, like other MMOs have done. It may seem abnormal for a game like Warframe, but note that good Raids have made RPGs successful. I believe that DE should follow a similar path in terms of end game.

 

2) Make the useless useful.

 

     We know about how useless x weapon or y frame is, and that will eventually be tackled by DE. What I would actually like to see is, more emphasis on the shorter, quicker missions. Rather than have players run the Endless missions, encourage the players to run the non-endless missions instead. I thought that the double rewards thing that was given from looting all Caches in a Void Sabotage was a great way to do so. If we can add these caches in all of the Void missions and bring back the extra reward from looting all three, it would not only reduce grind but also make players be grateful for the map design and make running shorter missions more useful. 

 

This is just my idea about how to make Warframe better as a whole. I hope you consider this DE. :)

Edited January 7, 2015 by Yazeth

[Lizzardtong]

i agree with the "Void cache in all void missions"

 

Would encourage people to explore the dang place. especially if the loot is good. nobody is gonna turn down a good item.

[Morec0]

We have Void. That's your endgame. But why do you want the game to end?

[geninrising]

Good ideas. I completely agree on all points, The problem with End Game is that WF has no ability in it's current iteration to implement any type of raid as it cannot support more than 4 players due to the hosted nature of missions. Raids would require a server setup like the relays, which DE has proven they can do for up to 100 players.

 

As far as the other end Game focus that other games provide PvP, DE has stated time and again that they have no interest in actually making PvP a thing here. What PvP we got was rushed without thought to the power differences in frames and weapons across the board.

 

Unfortunately PvP requires a dedicated love of said activity amongst the developers to work it out and make it viable, and DE has no love for PvP apparently.

 

Raids would be much appreciated and a worthy addition, however I think that there are only very specific weapons that could be utilized in this type of experience due to the massive power imbalances among weapons. Therefore in order to make raids as community friendly as possible it would take the implementation of a tiered weapon system with balances according to said tiers, subsequent MR locking of top tier gear to ensure players have reason to rank up(why rank up at all when you can jump straight to top tier gear).

 

In addition the rewards for said community involved efforts must be truly worthwhile otherwise no one will want to even try to work well with a group that is large. Currently a 4 man squad is pushing our current community teamwork to it's limit, people run off all Rambo all the time then get mad when you won't break ranks and come save their ignorant behinds. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Honestly, I'm not really sure that we need Focus. It seems like just another way of adding to our power, in a game where we stomp on the vast majority of enemies with ease. The basic mod system needs creative additions anyway, and I'm not sure taking those away to put them in Focus is best.

Also, DE stated Focus was essentially scrapped and started over again. My question is, why? Was there something fundamentally flawed with it that made releasing it impractical?

I think we have enough half-baked concepts in Warframe. I'd rather use the ideas from Focus to finish those than add another half-baked product to the mix.

[Yazeth]

We have Void. That's your endgame. But why do you want the game to end?

 

The thing is, what DE perceives as end game is different as what we perceive it to be. As of now, Void Endless missions are basically a substitution to actual endgame, which DE is trying to work on. The only problem is, with the current trend DE is taking, I'm a little afraid of the result. DE would release something that they would call "end game", but in the end may not actually be end game and is just another addition tacked onto the game that serves only as a side job, or something that progresses as you play.

 

 

-snip, pretty long-

 

Good points. Though, I think that we can have at least an 8 player raid, since in Dark Sector PvP you can already have 8 players at once. I don't think that a Raid would need a dedicated server really if we are talking at such a scale.

 

 

Honestly, I'm not really sure that we need Focus. It seems like just another way of adding to our power, in a game where we stomp on the vast majority of enemies with ease. The basic mod system needs creative additions anyway, and I'm not sure taking those away to put them in Focus is best.

Also, DE stated Focus was essentially scrapped and started over again. My question is, why? Was there something fundamentally flawed with it that made releasing it impractical?

I think we have enough half-baked concepts in Warframe. I'd rather use the ideas from Focus to finish those than add another half-baked product to the mix.

 

Focus was originally scrapped because it was seen as too plain and unoriginal by DE, hence the creation of this thread.

[xRufus7x]

unless you consider retaining only small percentages of the player base to the game to be successful.

OK, while I agree that a more flushed out endgame is needed for veteran players, how can you say this. The Warframe player base has exploded. It has 42,000 thumbs up on Steam. 21,599 players at its peak today, on a Tuesday, on steam alone, and that isn't even counting the consoles. 

[Morec0]

The thing is, what DE perceives as end game is different as what we perceive it to be. As of now, Void Endless missions are basically a substitution to actual endgame, which DE is trying to work on. The only problem is, with the current trend DE is taking, I'm a little afraid of the result. DE would release something that they would call "end game", but in the end may not actually be end game and is just another addition tacked onto the game that serves only as a side job, or something that progresses as you play.

 

Which... is good! Because it keeps you having a reason to play the game and that means they're more likely to spend money on platinum and everything else DE produces.

 

Look, in traditional MMOs Endgame as a concept works because they need to gate you to the upgrade - to the next expansion or whatever - and the best way to do that is say "we have this end-tier thing we're giving to you, there will be another in the next expansion so buy it if you want to play!". But, after you buy that expansion, then what reason do you have to go and do the previous Endgame content?

 

None, it sits there and it rots and it becomes a waste of space and time and effort.

 

That sort of the predicament DE is trying to avoid - Warframe level challenges aside, what could possibly be a good reason in a game like this, that is bent around keeping players playing as much content for long as possible, in saying "okay, this content here? useless now because we have this content here". Why would you want to even put time and effort into a system like that? Unless, of course, your running an MMO that has 1) paid access to the game 2) a subscription fee for playing the game.

 

Warframe has neither, and thus cannot rely on the same tactics that other MMOs use. They have do do other things - and providing new side content and things that progress with you as you move along. DE makes its money not by stringing along paying customers but by encouraging people to experience as much content as they can.

[superbot34]

how about giving us a true campaign mode which can let players start over and play the lore in sequence, including old events (including their rewards, but only in that mode) and maybe let us veteran players get off of "arcade" mode which is what Warframe is? 

[Yazeth]

OK, while I agree that a more flushed out endgame is needed for veteran players, how can you say this. The Warframe player base has exploded. It has 42,000 thumbs up on Steam. 21,599 players at its peak today, on a Tuesday, on steam alone, and that isn't even counting the consoles. 

 

It's more of an inference, based on experience. Sorry for not providing any real evidence. But, as of now, I feel that players don't always play these sort of missions just for the appeal of it. There are players who would like to be rewarded for their work. Since Archwing and Hijack do no provide anything that would benefit players, they really aren't anything special that would have the potential to keep a player in just for those small things. This is just my view though, and its fine that you do not agree with this, as again, I lack any real evidence.

 

 

-snip-

 

You make good points, but I still find it sad that DE has to rely on such tactics to make a profit. I know that with the system they have they are pretty limited. Though, as of now, I see players who are getting burnt out from these simple addition that provides very little impact to the game. I believe that Warframe would be successful with some sort of end game.

 

Also, I am not asking for additions that would make more stuff useless, as that will just be counterproductive for the game. Raids certainly can do that, but its more of a matter of Power Creep than anything else. If dealt with correctly, end game can flesh out a game even further, benefiting them in the end.

[meIody-]

We have Void. That's your endgame. But why do you want the game to end?

The void is just another place to grind and farm for more stuff to grind and farm with.

[Morec0]

The void is just another place to grind and farm for more stuff to grind and farm with.

 

Sounds a lot like WoW Raids to me:

 

"Run for the better gear so you can use it to run for the better gear."

[DiabolusUrsus]

I think Void would be a lot more accessible and acceptable to people if key owners could choose to open their lobbies to matchmaking. If you're not part of some ginormous mountain/moon clan and your friends aren't online, the recruiting channel can be ten and a half pains in the butt to deal with. It's very droll to set up key lobbies with strangers. 

 

That said, OP, I most definitely agree that DE is a little too focused on putting their own spin on things. It oftentimes causes them to overlook plenty of available tried-and-true systems that would feel plenty refreshing and unique when combined with Warframe's art style and atmosphere. Even when it comes to community feedback. I mean, just look at the quests that arguably spawned from Cells... They got mutated from enclosed little story segments with unique challenges into one-shot wonder loot runs with some narration. The quests are great, yes, and DE is getting around to making them replayable, but these sorts of details were literally spelled out for them here on the forums. Making quests replayable (or at least giving the player some means of re-experiencing the story as they desire) really shouldn't need to be a retroactive change. 

[Deviantis]

I disagree with the concept of endgame. I actually like DE allowing everyone to enjoy new game content regardless of veterancy.

Also your "normal" is incredibly skewed by the current generation of MMORPGs which only allow you to play the actual game after you reach max level.

:edit: I do agree with making forgotten things useful though. Still waiting for plasma sword to actually be a crit weapon.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Deviantis

[Kruglov]

i agree with the "Void cache in all void missions"

 

Would encourage people to explore the dang place. especially if the loot is good. nobody is gonna turn down a good item.

 

This and the Syndicate medallions are good steps in the right direction for making players slow down and look around.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Truth be told, I don't think that DE has" no ideas for end game" and I don't feel that what they have implemented to date was even "implemented poorly".

 

Here is what I think though:

 

I think that DE has a game design philosophy that puts rewarding game play above a rewarding game experience.

 

I think they believe that a slick looking and reasonably solid game is enough of a hook to get the average person to play and the promise of rewards is enough to keep them playing.

 

There is a lot of truth to this as well... Games that reward too much, too often, suffer as much attrition as games that barely reward anything at all and are the companies go broke in the process.

Make it rare.

Keep it rare.

But let the player profit, if only rarely, as it keeps them coming back.

 

The average Casino makes it's money on that mindset. So did EQ, D2, and a host of other Gen 1 MMOs.

 

In general, it's wise game design...

 

The problem is that they have the mix off a bit in my opinion.

 

The game experience isn't rewarding enough.

   Too many needless exercises to achieve needless milestones that actually force players to focus on the milestone as opposed to having fun.

   Too much repetition for too little gain.

   Too much time spent in that repetition.

   Too many hurdles present just to get to the point where you can again engage in that mindless repetition.

 

 

It's almost as if they are going to great lengths to make having a rewarding game experience such an onerous task that the average player will break down and pay to have it.

Conveniently, just about every desired item is available from the market or via trading.

 

For my part, I don't see that as an entirely bad thing... DE is a business and businesses are in it, ultimately, for the money.

That said..

A market philosophy designed to fleece "whales" or convince your player-base to do it for you is the wrong way to go about it.

 

 

It's entirely possible to play 8 hours and achieve nothing worthwhile while experiencing great gameplay the whole time.

That's a problem... That's one of the largest problems this game has, imo.

 

In short, Do you feel like you accomplished something? Do you feel like a worthy goal you set progressed? If the answer is "no", then the game has basically failed.

 

If you have 30 forma blueprints and get 6 more in a defense Void mission... Did you actually get anything?

 

That's the basic problem with Warframe right now and that's what needs to be fixed first.

 

Adding a Focus system or redesiging existing content won't fix what's wrong with this game, it'll only add to the problem.

 

DE's design intentions needs to be amended, not their content.

[Yazeth]

-snip-

 

Real nice. I wholeheartedly agree how DE's intentions are odd. I felt that their intentions were reducing the game's quality as a whole, and I felt that that was due to the idea of Warframe being original.

 

Also, for the end game part, DE had literally said that they had no idea about what to do for end game back then. Hopefully now they do. 

Source: https://warframe.com/news/devstream-38-overview

 

Ultimately the search for Warframe’s endgame is still ongoing. We want to create something unique and interesting within the world we’ve built rather than copy what seems to work for another game. We know the question at the end of the day is ‘what do we do when everything is maxed?’ We’re trying to find the answer definitive answer, and to that effect...

Edited January 7, 2015 by Yazeth

[grimoireofalice]

Oh yay, yet another bid to dress up a problem so that the only solution for it is raid encounters.

 

PSO didn't need raids, monster hunter didn't need raids, warframe doesn't need raids.

 

Forcing all the nessecary mechanics for raids to function into warframe alone would ruin the game. We have no gear treadmills, no powercreep, and no class roles. No warframe was designed with this type of content in mind, you'd end up with some frames being entirely meaningless in a raid and some that are garaunteed spots like trinity, rhino or valkyr.

 

What warframe needs is polish on the systems it has. It needs boss content that is enjoyable enough to replay... And currently very few of the boss encounters even feel like bosses. Let alone come across as enjoyable or interesting.

[Yazeth]

Oh yay, yet another bid to dress up a problem so that the only solution for it is raid encounters.

 

PSO didn't need raids, monster hunter didn't need raids, warframe doesn't need raids.

 

Forcing all the nessecary mechanics for raids to function into warframe alone would ruin the game. We have no gear treadmills, no powercreep, and no class roles. No warframe was designed with this type of content in mind, you'd end up with some frames being entirely meaningless in a raid and some that are garaunteed spots like trinity, rhino or valkyr.

 

What warframe needs is polish on the systems it has. It needs boss content that is enjoyable enough to replay... And currently very few of the boss encounters even feel like bosses. Let alone come across as enjoyable or interesting.

 

Raids are merely a simple solution to add end game. I wouldn't mind any other solutions as long as it's something that's good enough for the title.

[Rakosta_Kai]

We have no gear treadmills, no powercreep, and no class roles.

Do tell...

 

What warframe needs is polish on the systems it has. It needs boss content that is enjoyable enough to replay... And currently very few of the boss encounters even feel like bosses. Let alone come across as enjoyable or interesting.

The reason why Bosses don't feel like Bosses has a lot to do with that powercreep you just said didn't exist.

 

TBH, the only reason they shouldn't add raid content has nothing to do with the possible content in one and everything to do with the number of prerequisites players would have to complete each time they wanted to enter the raid.

 

It's not the difficulty... I guarantee players encounter greater difficulty in the Void regularly.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Padre_Akais