Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Azawarau]

That seems like a stretch to me.

Were not talking about mods here

 

Id rather not overextend this into a flavor text discussion

 

Already having to deal with another forumers blind rage and i have a feeling things are going to intensi- shoot me already

 

I out of bad puns

 

 

No, Rhino shouldn't be the only tank.

 

He should be the best tank, though, since he is the original tank frame.  Anyone who says he shouldn't be... is trying to re-purpose Rhino into something he was never intended for.  He is THE original tank warframe.  He's just no longer viable as a tank because of increased enemy damage at high levels and a power that doesn't scale well enough.

Why should he be the best tank?

 

How do you define tank in this situation?

[Holeypaladin]

The issue isn't that Rhino is unplayable, there's just little point to playing him as a tank when so many other frames do a better job of it.  He has been repurposed into a roar-stomp bot at high levels, and the balanced proposal to tanking would fix that.

 

The other option would be to increase Iron skin's artificial HP to 8000 (1200 / (1-.85)) for a set duration... essentially like snow globe is now.  But you'd still need to remove the power scaling on shatter shield and eclipse to make it balanced.  Since it expires at the end of its duration, it wouldn't be overpowered for low-level missions since it still costs energy to re-cast it.

 

That might even be the better solution... and give Frost an augment to his snow globe to make it eximus-like.

[Holeypaladin]

He should be the best tank because he's always clearly been designed as such.  "Heaviest frame" means "best tank" by definition.

 

And a tank is something that's hard to kill, pure and simple.  So the hardest to kill.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Heidrek]

They arent

 

Hes ignoring stomp entirely

Comment #184 Read carefully and tread cautiously Tenno

[Heidrek]

OMG everything everybody is arguing now is preference based. STOP
There is no master race. Well there are inferior warframes *stares at Ember*, but we have 22 frames there is some wiggle room in builds

Edited January 14, 2015 by Heidrek

[Kruglov]

Right, so you're a Rhino hater.  Got it.  You don't want Rhino to be a tank at all.

 

Then everything you say is invalidated by that alone.  Since he is intended to be the tank frame.

 

You really aren't very bright.

I'm a Rhino LOVER which is how I know he's balanced.

 

Rhino, Oberon, Loki, and Vauban are my favorite frames in the game IN THAT ORDER.

 

Rhino was the first frame I made.

And I use Rhino Prime very often.

 

It is because of this I have experience and knowledge.

It is because of this I KNOW that Rhino is powerful and capable of going as far as he wants in any difficulty.

It is because of this I KNOW he doesn't need a buff to his tanking abilities.

 

 

Because I take him anywhere and everywhere and never encounter a problem.

Because I know what to do.

I know how to use him.

I know when to use his abilities.

 

And I'm not even very good at this game overall.

 

If I can go 2 hours on a Phobos Grineer survival map with a Rhino Prime then so can you.

And if anything it proves how incredibly viable he is.

Because those enemies hit VERY hard and shred most frames to pieces in seconds.

 

Why don't I die?

Because I'm not stupid and know how much damage I can withstand before needing to worry about Iron Skin falling off.

It's no different than knowing when to stop moving as Loki and briefly hide before casting invisibility again.

Or when to peep around a corner as Oberon and use Smite on a particularly strong enemy.

Or what angle and speed to throw a Vauban ball so that it catches as many strong enemies in bastille/vortex as possible.

 

YOU are the only person having trouble with survivability as Rhino, Holey Paladin.

What do you think that means?

[Holeypaladin]

When did I ever say I have difficulty with survivability?  All I've ever done is ask for him to be viable as a tank once more.  Sure if I act like a coward and run from everything, it's easier to survive longer periods... but that's not what Rhino is intended for.  He's intended to face the enemy while all of his teammates run from them instead.

 

My entire premise is that I can tank better with a different frame.  You could too if you tried, I guarantee it.  And I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed.  Hence, a necessary change to iron skin.

[geninrising]

Ok so if we agree that Rhino is the basis for being a tank(even though from his kit itself he screams to me SUPPORT tank) Why not allow him his armor factoring into his IS. Not as in more HP but as DR versus his IS so if a player wanted to be a facetank they can be a facetank.

 

If a player themselves choose to gimp the rest of his kit for an ability that only marginally protects him then why can't we just give them that option. 

 

At least he is not exploding whole rooms with a single press of a button removing our ability to play.

 

This would not create a GODMODE IS like he had before but it would allow him some ability to scale into later content.

 

I am a proponent of balance in all things and thus far it seems that a lot of Rhino players disregard other abilities than IS as useful.

I can tell you from many a run that IS build rhinos are by far less useful than a rhino that can boost damage, dash in, stomp, and pick someone up before enemies can respond to the action.

 

OP is correct in his previous assertions that IS is near useless under late game circumstances but all around Rhino's have much more viability under all circumstances.

 

Giving IS the DR from armor would not actually be too bad a prospect overall as it would cause both groups of Rhino players to trade SOMETHING for the Steel Fiber that would under most circumstances be absent from either optimum build. At the same time it would give less skilled Rhino players a way to help their only viable playstyle, however as their skill increases with Rhino they should come to the same realizations that others have. IS is a panic button not a constant use skill. 

 

Previously when IS was just flat 100% DR it was insanely broken so maybe we can actually find a halfway point for players that wish to sincerely focus that type of build. No, it won't be the best build, but should the optimum playstyle be the only viable one? That is like advocating p42w.

 

I am not saying make IS invulnerable it might even be better to make the IS only receive a portion of the overall DR from armor. I am however supporting scaleability in all content which is a major sore point with me that is part of the focus of the whole p42w issue. Most abilities we have don't really scale well into content which trivializes said abilities.

 

Thus why certain players believe that radial nukes are the answer a lot of the time(look at Ashe for the best example of this I could think of, or Saryn for that matter).

[Holeypaladin]

I'm all for factoring armor into Iron Skin, however, simply factoring it in isn't enough, as Rhino's armor just isn't high enough to buff iron skin to the same level as other damage mitigation abilities.

 

I do have a 5-step proposal to balance out tanking in the game, but it's not relevant to the topic of primed iron skin, rather a more general topic about tanking.

[Ronyn]

Were not talking about mods here

Id rather not overextend this into a flavor text discussion

Already having to deal with another forumers blind rage and i have a feeling things are going to intensi- shoot me already

I out of bad puns

I understand that you may not prefer to dig into that but at the same time I prefer to clarify whether or not there is "plenty of reason" in the text/videos. 

 

Honestly it's pretty straight forward.

Rhino's text/video directly says "formidable defensive powers", "an immovable force", "highly resilient", "well equipped to absorb damage " and "an almost unstoppable tank" <-words pulled straight from the text/video.

While nothing in Valkyr's flavor text/video directly says she is a "tank", that she is "resilient", or strong in "defense"...or any thing of the sort. 

 

Sure a person can speculate that the experiment could have made her tough but that is just speculation. Not clear statements.

Words like "angry", "scarred", "rage" or "tormented" might result in resilience but are just as likely to result in someone being more prone to damage.Again, not clear statements of defensive capability.

Besides..if we are going to start speculating it is easy to suggest that rhino being classified as "the heaviest warframe" denotes his place as the toughest. But I say why speculate when we have direct statements to work with.

 

All we actually have that directly speaks to valkyr's defensive capability is when It mentions how warcry increases armor and that hysteria makes her temporarily invulnerable with the potential of delayed damage. Without stretching or speculation...that is all there is.

 

While I'm always a fan of puns there is nothing intense about it. It's clear as day.

 

Why should he be the best tank?

Why shouldn't he be?

I'd point out that the text/videos only list two frames (frost and rhino) as tanks but some folks don't feel that matters...ok fine.

Then if we aren't using flavor text/videos to gauge this stuff then what are we going by?

Are we just going based on the ever changing meta of the game in front of us?

Whatever we personally want each frame to be? Our take on their visual style?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Azawarau]

The issue isn't that Rhino is unplayable, there's just little point to playing him as a tank when so many other frames do a better job of it.  He has been repurposed into a roar-stomp bot at high levels, and the balanced proposal to tanking would fix that.

 

The other option would be to increase Iron skin's artificial HP to 8000 (1200 / (1-.85)) for a set duration... essentially like snow globe is now.  But you'd still need to remove the power scaling on shatter shield and eclipse to make it balanced.  Since it expires at the end of its duration, it wouldn't be overpowered for low-level missions since it still costs energy to re-cast it.

 

That might even be the better solution... and give Frost an augment to his snow globe to make it eximus-like.

No he hasnt

 

Youre literally doing it wrong

 

When did I ever say I have difficulty with survivability?  All I've ever done is ask for him to be viable as a tank once more.  Sure if I act like a coward and run from everything, it's easier to survive longer periods... but that's not what Rhino is intended for.  He's intended to face the enemy while all of his teammates run from them instead.

 

My entire premise is that I can tank better with a different frame.  You could too if you tried, I guarantee it.  And I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed.  Hence, a necessary change to iron skin.

So moving around to avoid enemy fire is being a coward?

 

Its called a dodge

 

Use it

[Azawarau]

He should be the best tank because he's always clearly been designed as such.  "Heaviest frame" means "best tank" by definition.

 

And a tank is something that's hard to kill, pure and simple.  So the hardest to kill.

Valkyr was introduced with more armor than rhino

 

I just want to make that clear to you

 

I understand that you may not prefer to dig into that but at the same time I prefer to clarify whether or not there is "plenty of reason" in the text/videos. 

 

Honestly it's pretty straight forward.

Rhino's text/video directly says "formidable defensive powers", "an immovable force", "highly resilient", "well equipped to absorb damage " and "an almost unstoppable tank" <-words pulled straight from the text/video.

While nothing in Valkyr's flavor text/video directly says she is a "tank", that she is "resilient", or strong in "defense"...or any thing of the sort. 

 

Sure a person can speculate that the experiment could have made her tough but that is just speculation. Not clear statements.

Words like "angry", "scarred", "rage" or "tormented" might result in resilience but are just as likely to result in someone being more prone to damage.Again, not clear statements of defensive capability.

Besides..if we are going to start speculating it is easy to suggest that rhino being classified as "the heaviest warframe" denotes his place as the toughest. But I say why speculate when we have direct statements to work with.

 

All we actually have that directly speaks to valkyr's defensive capability is when It mentions how warcry increases armor and that hysteria makes her temporarily invulnerable with the potential of delayed damage. Without stretching or speculation...that is all there is.

 

While I'm always a fan of puns there is nothing intense about it. It's clear as day.

 

Why shouldn't he be?

I'd point out that the text/videos only list two frames (frost and rhino) as tanks but some folks don't feel that matters...ok fine.

Then if we aren't using flavor text/videos to gauge this stuff then what are we going by?

Are we just going based on the ever changing meta of the game in front of us?

Whatever we personally want each frame to be? Our take on their visual style?

It was a joke

 

Calm down

 

Why shouldnt he be? You tell me why exactly?

 

As far as i can see rhino should have the second highest EHP with his iron skin on and his two support abilities while valkyr has the highest EHP and relies mostly on melee

 

Theyre both balanced as different tanks this way

 

The issue here isnt rhino so much as Trinity,Mesa, and others

 

I'm all for factoring armor into Iron Skin, however, simply factoring it in isn't enough, as Rhino's armor just isn't high enough to buff iron skin to the same level as other damage mitigation abilities.

 

I do have a 5-step proposal to balance out tanking in the game, but it's not relevant to the topic of primed iron skin, rather a more general topic about tanking.

Have you done the math on that or are we jumping to assumptions?

 

Armor on iron skin actually increases it by alot more than you assume

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[vaugahn]

Also... Blitzkrieg.  Ever heard of it?  It's a strategy where you send tanks in to destroy the enemy completely before they have a chance to react.  Worked pretty well for Germany.

 

Blitzkrieg is like the opposite of standing in one place soaking up damage. That comparison made my inner military buff cringe.

[Holeypaladin]

The blitzkrieg is in reference to the whole "Tanks are used as infantry support" when that's not how they're used in blitzkrieg tactics... sent in without infantry support, since infantry is too slow.  Using tanks as an infantry support vehicle is part of American tactics... Soviet and German tactics used them differently.

 

Anyway, I have done the math on iron skin.  Using Rhino's shields alone as reference, it's easy to get around 1200 shields if you mod for it.  An 85% damage reduction as per second iteration iron skin would essentially make those base 1200 shields absorb 8000 damage until they expire.  So iron skin would need to protect against 8000 damage to be as effective as Rhino's shields alone under second iteration iron skin.  Or make it 6000 base HP + 1000% of Rhino's armor so that it's more armor-like.  The shrapnel augment would need to be modified to deal only 10% of the iron skin's remaining HP in damage.

 

Which is why another of my proposed changes to iron skin is to make it duration-based like snow globe, but give it 8000 health.  It's still be viable in all mission types because it can be destroyed both by high damage or simply wear off over time.  In order for this to be viable, however, power-scaling to Shatter Shield and Dark Eclipse would need to be removed (there's no reason mirage should have 95% damage resistance in the shade, 75% is more than enough), as well as the invulnerability aspect of hysteria (reduce it to 85%).  Also I'm in favor of making snow globe eximus-like with an augment, to put Frost back into the tank category.  Snow globe's slightly reduced HP compared to the proposed iron skin would be excusable in that friendly units can jump in his bubble and it slows enemies who get close.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

To me it sounds like the DR of armor is the only thing that would make sense in balancing IS into more useablity without making it any sort of god mode for early players and still allow late game players a marginally effective measure of tanking potential, Additionally if anything other than this were implemented  spam build rhino players would have a god mode. 

 

Imagine Snowglobe's damage absorb mechanic on IS. People would just use a full fleeting/transient build to ensure maximum strength and only utilize the invincibility seconds for most of their time. Thus re re-create GodTank Rhino. With my Idea there will come a point that it is not as effective and yet still slightly more effective than it is now(quite a bit more effective if you focus for IS in build). 

[Ronyn]

Valkyr was introduced with more armor than rhino

I just want to make that clear to you

To be clear-Valkyr was introduced with 20 more armor points and way lower shields.

 

It was a joke

Calm down

Can't calm down from entirely calm. lol

 

Why shouldnt he be? You tell me why exactly?

Why would I? I'm not making any case that he shouldn't be.

I'm just trying to figure out what criteria people are using here when they say who should or shouldn't be one thing or another.

 

As far as i can see rhino should have the second highest EHP with his iron skin on and his two support abilities while valkyr has the highest EHP and relies mostly on melee

I understand that some feel that since Valkyr is melee focused she should have the highest EHP.

Though I view that as a somewhat more binary take on what a melee frame requires.

More to the point I feel that hysteria is meant to be Valkyrs cornerstone ability but it is built so wrong that it throws off her whole flow in several regards.

 

Theyre both balanced as different tanks this way

Assuming the goal was to make her a tank....that direction has some merit.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[vaugahn]

The blitzkrieg is in reference to the whole "Tanks are used as infantry support" when that's not how they're used in blitzkrieg tactics... sent in without infantry support, since infantry is too slow.  Using tanks as an infantry support vehicle is part of American tactics... Soviet and German tactics used them differently.

 

Go look up blitzkrieg. Please.

 

Blitzkrieg is a form of combined arms warfare. The tanks were used as force multipliers. The reason why the Germans used it is because they didn't think they could win a protracted battle, and believed they had to end conflicts in a single decisive blow as to take minimal losses.  

 

Also, nobody sends tanks anywhere without support from ground units. That was quickly found out to be a dangerous practice. 

[geninrising]

The blitzkrieg is in reference to the whole "Tanks are used as infantry support" when that's not how they're used in blitzkrieg tactics... sent in without infantry support, since infantry is too slow.  Using tanks as an infantry support vehicle is part of American tactics... Soviet and German tactics used them differently.

 

Anyway, I have done the math on iron skin.  Using Rhino's shields alone as reference, it's easy to get around 1200 shields if you mod for it.  An 85% damage reduction as per second iteration iron skin would essentially make those base 1200 shields absorb 8000 damage until they expire.  So iron skin would need to protect against 8000 damage to be as effective as Rhino's shields alone under second iteration iron skin.  Or make it 6000 base HP + 1000% of Rhino's armor so that it's more armor-like.  The shrapnel augment would need to be modified to deal only 10% of the iron skin's remaining HP in damage.

 

Which is why another of my proposed changes to iron skin is to make it duration-based like snow globe, but give it 8000 health.  It's still be viable in all mission types because it can be destroyed both by high damage or simply wear off over time.  In order for this to be viable, however, power-scaling to Shatter Shield and Dark Eclipse would need to be removed (there's no reason mirage should have 95% damage resistance in the shade, 75% is more than enough), as well as the invulnerability aspect of hysteria (reduce it to 85%).  Also I'm in favor of making snow globe eximus-like with an augment, to put Frost back into the tank category.  Snow globe's slightly reduced HP compared to the proposed iron skin would be excusable in that friendly units can jump in his bubble and it slows enemies who get close.

The numbers you provide are far and away beyond what should be provided for IS. 8k?? or in the other instance you provided 131k??

That is outlandish in the extreme and leads us back to Rhino the godTank ESPECIALLY when you remember that the Iron Shrapnel allows you to restore IS any time you want to now.

 

These figures you provided only serve to illustrate that you want godmode back and do nothing to alleviate the issue while still ensuring it takes SOME margin of skill to play the frame.

 

The numbers you dictate would allow rhino to literally stand against waves of enemies well beyond the scope of what other frames can reasonably cope with and would place Rhino as the preferred frame in Survival regardless of tier. What we NEED for Rhino is to ensure that he has SOME kind of scaleability, not a easy button to let new players ROFLstomp their way to victory without even trying to develop the skills that SHOULD be necessary in end game content.

 

What you advocate is a return to less skill and  pure reliance on a single piece of the frames overall kit without regard to the implications of our current efficiency system and how said system would generate a never ending Godmode. At least with Valkyr she cannot kill anything that is away from her. With this Rhino would not only be unkillable but free to kill anything within LoS with no risk vs reward mechanic like Valkyr has(she DIES if she dives into a massive group she cannot kill within hysteria's time limit). Rhino on the other hand would Iron Shrapnel, re-apply, and continue to rape without any threat to himself. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

If iron shrapnel is a problem, then change it so that it only activates at the end of iron skin's duration rather than at any time.

 

What is needed is to bring back that 85% damage absorb from iteration 2 iron skin.  That allows him to scale better with enemy levels.  The 8000 figure is simply a mathematical calculation of applying 85% damage absorb to a 1200 hp shield.

[DSpite]

That entire long rant completely ignored the fact that OTHER FRAMES CAN TANK, just not Rhino.

 

Fortitude means tank, by the way.

 

Also... Blitzkrieg.  Ever heard of it?  It's a strategy where you send tanks in to destroy the enemy completely before they have a chance to react.  Worked pretty well for Germany.

 

Rhino was always intended as the tank frame, but so long as other frames are doing a better job tanking high level missions, he falls short.  Hence why Rhino prime needs to be able to tank as well as all the tanky girls out there.  I feel like I'm talking to a wall, here.

 

If your own entire argument boils down to "this is what should happen because I say so" and you just keep bending arguments to suit, maybe everyone else is wasting time replying to your topic.

 

"Fortitude" appears to mean "mental and emotional strength in facing difficulty, adversity, danger, or temptation courageously", and in this game, the mod Fortitude "increases chance to Resist Knockdown and Shield recharge rate of a Warfarme".

 

Just because you keep saying the word "tank" does not make it mean anything in this game, and Blitzkrieg "forces a breakthrough into the enemy's line of defense through a series of short, fast, powerful attacks" so once again I fail to see what "face tanking" has anything to do with it.

 

Many modern historians have come to the conclusion that blitzkrieg itself was never an official doctrine or concept of the germans, and that it is a myth that it was officially adopted.

 

Yea, I heard of it. It's not even a real thing.

 

 

Once again, what does any of that have to do with a game. You keep getting told that Iron Skin is already functional for current content, and you what, want it to scale into Endless? The content part of the game that has no actual balance whatsoever?

 

Good luck with that.

[Holeypaladin]

Anyone who says iron skin is functional as a damage reduction power to current content is lying.

 

Because it is the absolute worst damage reduction power in the game.

 

It's as simple as that.  Lie all you want, it's still not functional for high level content.

[Holeypaladin]

So long as iron skin is the absolute weakest damage mitigation power in the game... my point is already proven.  It needs a rework, or a buff, or just a return to iteration 2.  Rhino of all frames should not have the weakest damage mitigation power.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Anyone who says iron skin is functional as a damage reduction power to current content is lying.

 

Because it is the absolute worst damage reduction power in the game.

 

It's as simple as that.  Lie all you want, it's still not functional for high level content.

That's because it isn't meant to be a damage reduction power that scales.

Had the devs wanted to see it be that way that had 3 functional iterations of iron Skin they could have used to that end.

They landed on this one.

You keep being told that and you keep willfully ignoring that fact.

 

If you are using it purely for damage reduction in high level content, you are doing it wrong.

If you expect that it should work that way in that type of content, you are lingering under false expectations.

 

If you feel it's that terrible, go a couple of high level missions without it... Every other frame in the game does.

[(PSN)Keiji_Haku]

Strong in this thread the fanboyism is.

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin was designed for high level content... a year and a half ago.

 

The definition of high level content has changed a lot since then.

 

At the time, iron skin, overheat, snow globe, and blessing were the only damage mitigation skills in the game.  Overheat had a base 40% reduction and capped out at 52%, since blind rage didn't exist.  Iron skin was enough to power through all star chart and T1-3 void missions without difficulty.  And it remained the second highest damage mitigation skill (behind Blessing) until blind rage made overheat overpowered, and once DE realized this they removed Overheat from the game.  Rhino was the king of tanks until Zephyr and Valkyr introduced the era of tanky girls, and Rhino has been completely forgotten and neglecting since then... largely because people keep saying he's in a good place, and blind themselves to the fact that he is no longer suited for his originally intended role, and instead takes a roar-stomp bot role instead.

 

I've said many times that the high level content deals a crapload more damage now than it did back when iron skin was revamped, but it falls on stone deaf ears, it seems.  Almost every sort of damage reduction or shield power has had some sort of scaling implemented into it in order to survive higher level content... such as the brief invulnerability of snow globe, and percentage-based reductions rather than artificial HP, or percentage-based shield reinforcement from Mag's new augment.  Every damage reduction power has been modified in some way within the past six months or so... except Iron Skin.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin