Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Azawarau]

With iron skin rhino actually gets a pretty high DR

 

 

If youre burning through rhinos IS that fast then theres an issue with you

 

Unless youre at lvl 100 where youre not supposed to tank that well

 

Im just gonna say this now. youre a liar You havnt done that with mirage and cant prove it so stop

 

If you have enough skill to utilize shadows with mirage then using rhinos IS should be cake

 

Unless you go into the void and record yourself doing that dont bother bringing it up again

[Azawarau]

you cant factor in primed continuity, not everyone got it, and we never know if it will ever show back up, just like arcane helmets.

It likely will show up eventually since its a void trader item

 

Its not really like helmets that just wont ever be coming back

 

Even without that you can always go half ranked Narrow minded and stretch as a sub though thats an extra slot used

 

 

 

Spehse mehreens don't block.

 

Rhino is a spehse mehreen.

 

Warframe is a shooter, not an RPG.  Different tank premise.

Really? You of all people saying this

 

WF forums # 1 troll right here

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[Holeypaladin]

Do a google image search for "space marine" if you don't believe me.  Occasionally they carry swords or hammers, but usually it's a gun.  And none of them have shields.  Just a crapton of armor meant to stop anything from touching them.

 

Rhino is the closest thing in Warframe to a space marine, and that's what people like to use him as.  It's probably why he's so popular... lot of people are fans of space marines.

[SIDESTRE4M]

How I calculated the numbers for Mirage?  Simply.  Shields + health multiplied by 1-.95

 

Her shields and health with redirection and vitality are both 592... which looks like a glass cannon stat, until you realize that with a 95% damage reduction, they protect her as if they were 20 times 592... or 11840 each.  Her EHP is 23680 with eclipse up in shadow.

 

AAAAAnd it's still situational and unreliable. Rhino will just have to hit one button, whereas  Mirage has to watch for her positioning, RNG and awareness of her surroundings.

 

Now you tell me about balance.

[Azawarau]

Do a google image search for "space marine" if you don't believe me.  Occasionally they carry swords or hammers, but usually it's a gun.  And none of them have shields.  Just a crapton of armor meant to stop anything from touching them.

 

Rhino is the closest thing in Warframe to a space marine, and that's what people like to use him as.  It's probably why he's so popular... lot of people are fans of space marines.

"Warframe should be like this other thing" seems to e your best defense for everything

[Holeypaladin]

Mirage isn't intended to be a full time tank, so of course her damage reduction is situational.

 

Rhino IS intended to be a tank, so his damage reduction isn't situational... it's just terrible right now.

 

It's balanced because mirage has godlike weapon damage.  She's a damage dealer, obviously.  What's not balanced is that she's currently a weapon damage dealer who is 5 times as durable as Rhino.

[Thaumatos]

Do a google image search for "space marine" if you don't believe me.  Occasionally they carry swords or hammers, but usually it's a gun.  And none of them have shields.  Just a crapton of armor meant to stop anything from touching them.

 

Rhino is the closest thing in Warframe to a space marine, and that's what people like to use him as.  It's probably why he's so popular... lot of people are fans of space marines.

Dude....you gonna talk 40K?

 

Space Marines with Terminator Honors use shields.  Heaviest of the heavy Ultramarines (Edit: the ones that haven't died and been turned into Dreadnoughts anyway); Assault Terminator Squad:

 

Also, they all use claws, swords, spears, hammers, shields, one handed guns, two handed guns, rocket launchers.  Whatever kind of ancient, irreproducible technologies they can get their hands on.

 

Edit 2:

 

Ya know I just realized....this is getting way outta hand and off topic.  We're probably gonna get locked soon. lol

Edited January 14, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Holeypaladin]

I guarantee I have done that with mirage.  Many times.  I don't need to record myself for the likes of you, though.

 

You keep assuming I can't play, making an idiot of yourself in the process.  Just because I CAN use Rhino as a roar-stomp bot doesn't mean I want to.  I gave up on him because I felt insulted that his role had been reduced to team damage buffer rather than main tank.

 

Iron skin is completely unrelated to armor... not sure why you're bringing up a ridiculously irrelevant graph.  It's just 1200 artificial HP, unaffected by armor, but taking extra damage from enemy puncture attacks (which there are a lot of).  If it did add 1200 armor, it'd be a much more useful skill than it currently is... but only on damage inflicted to health, rather than health and shields both like most other damage reduction powers.

[letir]

Why you talking about Mirage, when players have very tough Valkyr with own "immortal mode", Mesa with her easy shield and "can't hit this" Zephyr?

[Holeypaladin]

So they do.  Interesting, hadn't seen those guys before.

 

But for the most part they don't need them, and their shields are designed for blocking melee attacks rather than bullets.  The whole deflecting bullets with your sword thing isn't something I picture as appropriate for a hulking brute like Rhino, more an agile ninja like Ash thing.

 

I use Mirage as a reference since she's currently got the best damage reduction power next to Valkyr's immortal mode.  Most people agree that valkyr's immortality should be nerfed, but damage reduction powers like Eclipse are becoming more and more common in female warframes lately.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Ronyn]

 

Valkyr has an EHP of.... was it 6 or 8k? Im thinking 8....Without warcry

Rhino has an EHP of .. 5 or 6k? I just remathed all of this a day ago and cant remember...

Yeah. But Rhino requires a caster build to hit those numbers with iron skin. 

Unfortunately once you've done that he is set up to become a roar/stomp bot...

and not so much a tank anymore. This is so much why some folks are calling him a "support" now...

and why other folks who are under the impression he should be built like a warrior (not caster mods) are under the impression iron skin is weak.

 

Now i do think his iron skin needs a buff because of functionality

It doesnt synergize as well with rage and QT as warcry does so Valkyr has an edge on staying alive

Even saryn with her lower EHP can put rhino to the test. Frost kinda can too but you have to be very um.... strange with that build

Id like to see Iron skin bumped up a bit either directly (As bad an idea as that is) or by making iron skin affected by certain mods

Not sure of an effective HP number yet

The other thing is without iron skin rhino is softer than saryn and frost (With Helm) so he could stand a bit more armor as well

Now THIS is a very good point. It hit's the real issue here->Actually staying alive.

There is usually so much talk about EHP that the question of how sustainable that is gets lost...

and how that leads to whether a frame can truly stay alive or not get's forgotten.

The difference in how survivable each frame is isn't just about EHP...but where those EHP come from.

 

When rhino was created and even updated the game was in a very different place on a few key fronts.

Rhino's synergy is still stuck in the era when shields were king because they could at least bounce back...

That just isn't how the game works anymore.

 

The new melee dynamic created with melee 2.0 (with how channeling and life strike interact with rage and energy gain) has made high health/armor builds WAY more effective at keeping a person alive than it use to be.

 

So frames with high health and/or armor (Valkyr, Saryn, Oberon, Aurora helmed Frost) are proving to be far more survivable than they were pre-melee 2.0. At this time there is actually advantages to taking health damage, as it grants energy which in turn allows healing and offensive power use. Where as rhino's iron skin takes him out of that loop, and trying to rely on that loop with his fourth tier armor when tanking is less than ideal for him anyway....(Though I'm toying with ironclad charge to see how much armor it grants. We ever get real numbers on that?)

 

Simply put: These various changes resulted in a shift in the pecking order of tankiness. Effectively lessening rhino's relevance as a tank in the current meta. 

 

The other thing feeding into this situation is how many mods there are to lower casting costs these days.

Rhino has become most effective as the "ult spamming CC guy" instead of the "get in your face tank". 

The fact that the best rhino builds are spam caster builds are a sign that something is off. sigh...

 

So Rhino's role has kind of shifted away from it's original intent not based on direct rhino changes but because of changes to the overall game. These are likely unintended consequences brought about by how delicate balance in a complex system really is.

 

With iron skin rhino actually gets a pretty high DR

That's an inaccurate statement. Iron Skin is not really damage reduction. It is damage absorption.

The difference is very important as to how it relates to the information above.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

Mirage isn't intended to be a full time tank, so of course her damage reduction is situational.

 

Rhino IS intended to be a tank, so his damage reduction isn't situational... it's just terrible right now.

 

It's balanced because mirage has godlike weapon damage.  She's a damage dealer, obviously.  What's not balanced is that she's currently a weapon damage dealer who is 5 times as durable as Rhino.

 

But you talk as if she is. Because she is better than Rhino in every way. Ain't she?

 

Why not Loki? Beeing invisible and equipped with silent weapons, he has more survivability than all the other frames can dream of. No target = infinite life.

[Azawarau]

I guarantee I have done that with mirage.  Many times.  I don't need to record myself for the likes of you, though.

 

You keep assuming I can't play, making an idiot of yourself in the process.  Just because I CAN use Rhino as a roar-stomp bot doesn't mean I want to.  I gave up on him because I felt insulted that his role had been reduced to team damage buffer rather than main tank.

 

Iron skin is completely unrelated to armor... not sure why you're bringing up a ridiculously irrelevant graph.  It's just 1200 artificial HP, unaffected by armor, but taking extra damage from enemy puncture attacks (which there are a lot of).  If it did add 1200 armor, it'd be a much more useful skill than it currently is... but only on damage inflicted to health, rather than health and shields both like most other damage reduction powers.

So wild unbacked claim followed by discrediting of actual useful information that shows youre overeacting?

 

Is this a forum or a bridge?

[Holeypaladin]

Also the addition of ultra tanky female frames last year.  I thought it over and realized that every single female frame introduced in 2014 had a damage reduction skill that was better than Iron Skin.

 

Valkyr had hysteria and super high armor, zephyr turbulence, mirage eclipse, mesa shatter shield.  And now Mag has shield transference, also better than Rhino since it scales to enemy levels.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Holeypaladin]

I've mentioned Loki as well, but invisibility is a dodge skill rather than a reduction skill.  Different type skills, hard to compare them.  Evasion through invisibility is outright superior to damage reduction in general, but the evasion vs reduction argument is not relevant to this topic.

 

I'm saying that it's pretty jacked up that Mirage is a better tank than Rhino, since that's not even her premise.

[ZayTM]

Okay, I can simplify this argument quite easily.

The problem isn't Rhino, the problem is the uber-powerful DRs on Mirage, Trinity, and Mesa. By the time Iron Skin has trouble tanking, you're past the point which DE balances for (in their own words).

So, why don't we try to fix the problem instead of trying to 'fix' Rhino?

[Ronyn]

....

Personally I'd love to see rhino take the throne as THE tank of the game once again. If matched by anyone, it should only be frost in his own way.

Yet somehow I can't really get behind a lot of what you've said in this thread. Be honest with you man it still seems like you are exaggerating certain things. I get where you heart is here but that kind of gets lost in your specific suggestions and claims of what frame does what most effectively.

 

 

Also the addition of ultra tanky female frames last year.  I thought it over and realized that every single female frame introduced in 2014 had a damage reduction skill that was better than Iron Skin.

 

Valkyr had hysteria and super high armor, zephyr turbulence, mirage eclipse, mesa shatter shield.  And now Mag has shield transference, also better than Rhino since it scales to enemy levels.

See now the wording here...some folks will take that to mean you don't think females should be tankeir than rhino..

when really I think you're trying to say that no one should be tankier than rhino.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Holeypaladin]

Okay, I can simplify this argument quite easily.

The problem isn't Rhino, the problem is the uber-powerful DRs on Mirage, Trinity, and Mesa. By the time Iron Skin has trouble tanking, you're past the point which DE balances for (in their own words).

So, why don't we try to fix the problem instead of trying to 'fix' Rhino?

I already proposed a list of simple changes that would balance out DR in general, but you might have missed it.  It consisted of 5 simple steps which I'll update based on recent discussion.

 

Step 1: Remove the invincibility of hysteria, replace with 85% DR or so

Step 2: Remove the power strength scaling of all damage reduction skills (Eclipse and shatter shield, I'm looking at you).  75% DR for Mirage and 80% for Mesa are more than enough, they don't need to have 95%.

Step 3: Return to iteration 2 iron skin, which was an 85% DR and immunity to CC

Step 4: Find some new purpose for the shrapnel augment for iron skin.

Step 5: Give snow globe some sort of augment to make it eximus-like, because frost is supposed to be a tank too.

[Tyreuzs]

mesa and mirage are much worse then rhino in tanking

[Holeypaladin]

I've actually tried to be as honest as possible.  Some of the numbers look like exaggerations (Eclipse EHP), but it's actually a mathematical calculation that shows exactly how powerful it can be right now.

 

Mesa and mirage are way better than Rhino at tanking.  Anyone that says they're worse.. doesn't know how to use them, or is basing this statement on flawed information.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Ronyn]

I've actually tried to be as honest as possible.  Some of the numbers look like exaggerations (Eclipse EHP), but it's actually a mathematical calculation that shows exactly how powerful it can be right now.

 

Mesa and mirage are way better than Rhino at tanking.  Anyone that says they're worse.. doesn't know how to use them, or is basing this statement on flawed information.

That's the thing. Math alone isn't enough.  

Mesa is great at tanking projectiles but as soon as there is aoe, melee, and status effects she get's cut down quickly.

Now maybe shattersheild needs tweaking but even as it is....it's tankiness is somewhat situational.

Mirage, in shadows is solid, but it's unrealistic that one is able to remain in shadows all the time.

her tankiness is somewhat situational too.

[Vaskadar]

It'd be fine if there was a brief period where his iron skin would absorb damage and redirect it to iron skin's total health. Take Snow Globe, for example.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I see him as the ambulance from the movie Cannonball Run.. rather than a Tank. Run in, roar, stomp, revive, haul my keister out of there. I've run T4 with a one star Rhino and sinking marathon, quick rest, and speed run on him has kept me alive out on the outer edges and high void runs.

It's a shame so many hate him. He's awesome looking, fun to use, and looks right when swinging a hammer. If he makes new players love the game then there you go.

[Holeypaladin]

I understand their tankiness is somewhat situational... but when those situations are met, they are essentially invincible.  And you'd typically try to take advantage of those situations as much as possible when you want that kind of durability... hiding in shadows, jumping on top of objects to be outside of melee range, etc.

 

Whereas there is no situation in which Rhino becomes anywhere near invincible in content past level 30.

[Ronyn]

I understand their tankiness is somewhat situational... but when those situations are met, they are essentially invincible.  And you'd typically try to take advantage of those situations as much as possible when you want that kind of durability... hiding in shadows, jumping on top of objects to be outside of melee range, etc.

 

Whereas there is no situation in which Rhino becomes anywhere near invincible in content past level 30.

Well I do agree that the frame balance in this game has become pretty wonky. lol