Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Thaumatos]

What exactly is bad about it if i may ask?

 

...

 

Lvl 40 isnt the end

 

Its the beginning of the end

 

Lvl 60 serves as a good end

 

First of all, the end of what DE considers to be 'balanced' play is the end of where I'm concerned with balanced play.  If we want to talk about endless nonsense, we can do so outside of the realm of "x is better than y needs a nerf for z".  If I can one-shot everything in what DE considers to be the highest end of 'balanced' levels, the game is too easy.  If level 60 heavy gunners have 250% more armor every +1 level, and DE considers 40 to be balanced, I don't care that 60 gunners are OP.  Whenever you have endless anything, things are going to get absurd at some point.

 

As far as what's "bad" ... I'm not sure what you're asking.  I'm talking about balancing shooters vs RPGs.  There are a lot more elements of Warframe that are RPG-like than shooter-like.  You have a gun, you aim down the sights, and you left click to shoot...that's about as shooter-like as you get.  After that, you need to start thinking the game is an RPG and balance accordingly.

 

As I've said before, damage, hp, armor, skills, etc all need to be examined.  There is no longer a 'baseline' that everyone play off of.  They're adding frames and picking numbers for base stats at what appears to be complete situational randomness (ex: Hydroid's 150 stamina during melee 2.0's release).

[Azawarau]

I see what you're saying. I've just always found it to be far under its potential.

back when it was more useful at mobility it still sucked in terms of damage and yanking enemies. (it still one shots early game though)

Now-a-days I use it in conjunction with air melee to do some crazy mobility stuff.

I really like the mobility aspect of it....(attack on titan up in here!) i just wish it did its other stuff better.

 

Generally agreed. Though I've done some paralays focused CC builds to see what certain people are so excited about...

it works just fine but its not my style of build. 

 

This would be a good conversation to have in itself.

 

It's not to say that Valkyr isn't "berzerking" or isn't fulfilling MOST of her described <rush around melee-dps> role. 

 

It's more that- 

1: she has become so effective in another role (tank) that if they were to flesh out what she is missing in ripline and hysteria she would likely be out of balance. I feel like she us supposed to be among the most mobile, the highest damage dealers in the game, she cant also be the tankiest frame in the game too. Somethings got to give. It's kind of like how trinity is supposed to be the ultimate healer/support frame but accidentally also became the uber-tanky frame. 

2: I feel she the <armor/rage/lifesteal> loop has made her too energy efficient. 

It's why I suggested a shift in where her defense potential comes from in our earlier discussions.

Granted, too much energy is an issue for many frames from other things. I'm just speaking about her issue at the moment.

And I know there are other ways to change Valkyrs survivability...like breaking the ability to create that loop by removing rage and/lifestrike.

 

Now I realize not everyone agrees with all that and that's cool. That's just my personal take on it.

This isnt over yet

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/385610-frame-defensive-rework/

 

 

First of all, the end of what DE considers to be 'balanced' play is the end of where I'm concerned with balanced play.  If we want to talk about endless nonsense, we can do so outside of the realm of "x is better than y needs a nerf for z".  If I can one-shot everything in what DE considers to be the highest end of 'balanced' levels, the game is too easy.  If level 60 heavy gunners have 250% more armor every +1 level, and DE considers 40 to be balanced, I don't care that 60 gunners are OP.  Whenever you have endless anything, things are going to get absurd at some point.

 

As far as what's "bad" ... I'm not sure what you're asking.  I'm talking about balancing shooters vs RPGs.  There are a lot more elements of Warframe that are RPG-like than shooter-like.  You have a gun, you aim down the sights, and you left click to shoot...that's about as shooter-like as you get.  After that, you need to start thinking the game is an RPG and balance accordingly.

 

As I've said before, damage, hp, armor, skills, etc all need to be examined.  There is no longer a 'baseline' that everyone play off of.  They're adding frames and picking numbers for base stats at what appears to be complete situational randomness (ex: Hydroid's 150 stamina during melee 2.0's release).

Hold your high horse there

 

First off im not one of those people that think endless missions are to be balanced on

 

Second i gave an opinion based on the current state of warframe.

 

When DE said the level range was around 40-50 i defended that

 

Weve been buffed since then and i feel that the level range should be higher now than what it was, but not endless

 

And finally

 

I literally just made a thread about armor and tanking and such

 

Im actually adding a portion about grineer and coprus defenses soon

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/385610-frame-defensive-rework/

[Holeypaladin]

T4E enemies are around level 45.  And they're definitely relevant content.  And they definitely take out iron skin in one hit.

 

I think a lot of the issue with iron skin is that most people never actually played back when it was invulnerability.  They've only played since it became neglected and slowly obsolete simply due to increasing enemy damage numbers.  It needs a rework, for certain.

[Masyaf47]

T4E enemies are around level 45.  And they're definitely relevant content.  And they definitely take out iron skin in one hit.

 

I think a lot of the issue with iron skin is that most people never actually played back when it was invulnerability.  They've only played since it became neglected and slowly obsolete simply due to increasing enemy damage numbers.  It needs a rework, for certain.

It needs rework, but one hit? are you using overextended?

[cyrus106]

Rhino quite frankly is a bit of a noob frame, as he requites very little skill to use and encourages bad habits. His ironskin facetanking was removed because it was WAY too good. Im gonna have to say no, sorry

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino is not a noob frame, the fact that people consider it as such is just proof that iron skin needs a rework.  Anyone who say it's a noob frame is essentially applying personal bias and hatred to the subject.  All frames are supposed to be viable for all levels of content, not just "noob levels".

 

And no... no overextended applied.  That lanka from the nullifiers seriously does blow through iron skin in one hit in T4E.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

It's not because of noob levels, but noob players, where the name originates from. Not really an argument for your cause.

[Thaumatos]

It's not because of noob levels, but noob players, where the name originates from. Not really an argument for your cause.

This will probably be my last reply to this thread because I'm discussing defenses elsewhere (which kinda incorporates Iron Skin by default) but Rhino isn't a 'noob' frame because 'noobs' play him.

 

Rhino is considered the 'noob' frame because he makes all content below level 20 irrelevant.  Iron Skin is too powerful at low levels and too weak at higher levels.  That's the nature of making things a flat 'effin' number in a game where numbers go anywhere from 0 to infinity.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah, an iron skin revamp that makes it no longer godlike at low levels but no longer worthless at high levels should be a definite priority.

[SIDESTRE4M]

This will probably be my last reply to this thread because I'm discussing defenses elsewhere (which kinda incorporates Iron Skin by default) but Rhino isn't a 'noob' frame because 'noobs' play him.

 

Rhino is considered the 'noob' frame because he makes all content below level 20 irrelevant.  Iron Skin is too powerful at low levels and too weak at higher levels.  That's the nature of making things a flat 'effin' number in a game where numbers go anywhere from 0 to infinity.

 

It generates noobs, because of what you said, they don't learn positioning and taking cover, dodging, rolling. Of course not everyone.

[Azawarau]

Rhino is not a noob frame, the fact that people consider it as such is just proof that iron skin needs a rework.  Anyone who say it's a noob frame is essentially applying personal bias and hatred to the subject.  All frames are supposed to be viable for all levels of content, not just "noob levels".

 

And no... no overextended applied.  That lanka from the nullifiers seriously does blow through iron skin in one hit in T4E.

I definitely have not had that experience

 

After a few blooper runs and tweaking of my build ive found a no forma setup that works fine for T 4 EXT

 

It only has TF for power STr strangely enough

 

No forma

 

Video incoming

 

EDIT

 

Can someone explain to my why my rhino was knocked down with Iron skin on? I see this happen every so often and it bugs me as much as i hate CC bypassing

Edited January 15, 2015 by Azawarau

[Holeypaladin]

The attack that knocks down iron skin procs the knockdown affect as well.  It's proof that the knockdown is blowing through your iron skin.

[Bobtm]

There is a problem with this section here.

You say he has always been a bruiser, then describe what a tank would be like (stronger iron skin, less utility,slower) if that is what they wanted, which is exactly how rhino use to be before the reworks and vanguard helmet.

 

Seems that there is always a sort of.....slant..that gets applied here.

 

The slant exists because a lot of players simply don't know what differentiates sub-types from one another.  A lot of folks regularly just assume something with even one form of damage mitigation is automatically a tank because they lack the ability to look at the whole scope.  Rhino was never a tank, plain and simple.  It's strange how often folks tout how slow Rhino is when... well he's only 10% slower than what is the literal average speed, that's not slow at all.  Currently there is no such thin as a slow frame in Warframe, none of them are slow.  There are less fast frames, average fast frames, and more fast frames but I'm not going to focus much on that area.  To really get into the details I'll break his kit down piece by piece, both his original kit and his current one;

 

Original Skills

 

Rhino Charge:  A burst of mobility in a direct line, deals damage and knockdown when striking enemy dargets.  This skill deals damage, but its main factors are both in its mobility and its capability to knock down foes.  It can both be used to initiate or to escape so long as your build doesn't kneecap the ability.

 

Iron Skin:  Invulnerability to all damage and crowd control effects for a set duration.  This skill lets Rhino stay in the thick of combat longer than any other frame possibly can (or should).  Its CC immunity is notable in that it means you will be unhindered whilst taking the fight to your foes' collective faces.  Then subsequently taking their faces and introducing them to the ground.

 

Radial Blast:  Damage, in a circle.  It's damage, that just smacks everything around you with a helping of hurt.  Basically it further speaks to Rhino's thrash mobbing addiction as he gets to let everyone nearby experience some pain at any given moment's notice.

 

Rhino Stomp:  Damage, in a circle, + a mighty fine CC.  This is Rhino's big CC, Rhino Charge's bigger angrier brother in this particular realm.  The skill allows you to put a pause on all combat happening near you, allowing yourself some breathing room whenever necessary.

 

Current Skills

 

Rhino Charge:  Same as before, good ol' mobility and light CC.

 

Iron Skin:  A destructible layer of defensive armor that, while active, prevents all damage from reaching Rhino while also granting him immunity to CC.  It does the same job of allowing Rhino to be in the thick of things as the IS of old, yet isn't entirely broken while doing so.  The CC immunity is the larger thing to note on this skill, it's the true cornerstone of what makes this ability strong.  Whereas the damage absorbing armor is a nice bonus to lay atop it.

 

Roar:  A radial buff which increases the damage output of both Rhino and any teammates within its reach.  This skill helps to further your conquest to build a corpse fort around yourself, but it also lets your teammates get in on that action so long as they aren't hiding out in the boonies like cowardly snipers.

 

Rhino Stomp:  Same as before.

 

     __________

 

Now there's a noticable trend here, both in his old and current kit, Rhino only has one defensive skill at all.  The rest are either directly offensive or indirectly offensive.  Beyond that 50% of both kits speak to crowd control to some degree, while his 1 speaks to burst mobility, and his 2 has always given him CC immunity.  All of these traits directly speak to one's ability to fight right in the thick of the enemy horde and "bust some skulls" while only 1 part of his kits has ever spoken to damage resistance.

 

These traits are specifically what speak to a bruiser by theme, not a tank.  While both do have damage mitigation, tanks are almost all damage mitigation with usually a light touch of CC and some nasty strong aggro control.  Warframe has never had a legitimate tank, it really should have one and I hope players who want one get one.  But to put it simlpy, Rhino has never been a tank, he's just the closest thing we had for quite a very long time.

 

One bit of damage mitigation, a tank does not make.  Heavy does not automatically mean tank, it's a wierdly common misconception but a misconception all the same.

 

As a last note... I called myself a coward *sadface* oh well, I suppose if the shoe fits.

[Azawarau]

The slant exists because a lot of players simply don't know what differentiates sub-types from one another.  A lot of folks regularly just assume something with even one form of damage mitigation is automatically a tank because they lack the ability to look at the whole scope.  Rhino was never a tank, plain and simple.  It's strange how often folks tout how slow Rhino is when... well he's only 10% slower than what is the literal average speed, that's not slow at all.  Currently there is no such thin as a slow frame in Warframe, none of them are slow.  There are less fast frames, average fast frames, and more fast frames but I'm not going to focus much on that area.  To really get into the details I'll break his kit down piece by piece, both his original kit and his current one;

 

Original Skills

 

Rhino Charge:  A burst of mobility in a direct line, deals damage and knockdown when striking enemy dargets.  This skill deals damage, but its main factors are both in its mobility and its capability to knock down foes.  It can both be used to initiate or to escape so long as your build doesn't kneecap the ability.

 

Iron Skin:  Invulnerability to all damage and crowd control effects for a set duration.  This skill lets Rhino stay in the thick of combat longer than any other frame possibly can (or should).  Its CC immunity is notable in that it means you will be unhindered whilst taking the fight to your foes' collective faces.  Then subsequently taking their faces and introducing them to the ground.

 

Radial Blast:  Damage, in a circle.  It's damage, that just smacks everything around you with a helping of hurt.  Basically it further speaks to Rhino's thrash mobbing addiction as he gets to let everyone nearby experience some pain at any given moment's notice.

 

Rhino Stomp:  Damage, in a circle, + a mighty fine CC.  This is Rhino's big CC, Rhino Charge's bigger angrier brother in this particular realm.  The skill allows you to put a pause on all combat happening near you, allowing yourself some breathing room whenever necessary.

 

Current Skills

 

Rhino Charge:  Same as before, good ol' mobility and light CC.

 

Iron Skin:  A destructible layer of defensive armor that, while active, prevents all damage from reaching Rhino while also granting him immunity to CC.  It does the same job of allowing Rhino to be in the thick of things as the IS of old, yet isn't entirely broken while doing so.  The CC immunity is the larger thing to note on this skill, it's the true cornerstone of what makes this ability strong.  Whereas the damage absorbing armor is a nice bonus to lay atop it.

 

Roar:  A radial buff which increases the damage output of both Rhino and any teammates within its reach.  This skill helps to further your conquest to build a corpse fort around yourself, but it also lets your teammates get in on that action so long as they aren't hiding out in the boonies like cowardly snipers.

 

Rhino Stomp:  Same as before.

 

     __________

 

Now there's a noticable trend here, both in his old and current kit, Rhino only has one defensive skill at all.  The rest are either directly offensive or indirectly offensive.  Beyond that 50% of both kits speak to crowd control to some degree, while his 1 speaks to burst mobility, and his 2 has always given him CC immunity.  All of these traits directly speak to one's ability to fight right in the thick of the enemy horde and "bust some skulls" while only 1 part of his kits has ever spoken to damage resistance.

 

These traits are specifically what speak to a bruiser by theme, not a tank.  While both do have damage mitigation, tanks are almost all damage mitigation with usually a light touch of CC and some nasty strong aggro control.  Warframe has never had a legitimate tank, it really should have one and I hope players who want one get one.  But to put it simlpy, Rhino has never been a tank, he's just the closest thing we had for quite a very long time.

 

One bit of damage mitigation, a tank does not make.  Heavy does not automatically mean tank, it's a wierdly common misconception but a misconception all the same.

 

As a last note... I called myself a coward *sadface* oh well, I suppose if the shoe fits.

To be fair here

 

That 1 defensive buff does make up 25% of his skillset

 

And stomp is also a form of damage mitigation and CC that fits the tank role

[Holeypaladin]

The two slow frames were always intended as tanks.  That's why they're slower than anyone else.  Look again at the original skills.

 

Iron skin original: Complete invulnerability.  No other defensive skills needed.  So why the heck would he have them?

 

Snow globe original: Again, complete invulnerability to all incoming attacks.  No other defensive skills required!

 

Anyone with a "complete invulnerability" type skill is for certain a tank.  Look at Valkyr, and how everyone is calling her the new tank since she's the only one with the invulnerability skills.

 

The fact that iron skin has been reduced from "absolute best invulnerability power" to "absolute weakest power except now shield transference is finally weaker, hooray!" is proof that Rhino is far more incompetent at his originally intended role of facetanking incoming damage through complete invulnerability.

 

Invulnerability probably won't ever return to Rhino, sure.  But he can at least be given the whole "draw enemy fire away from your allies and don't get killed by it" role by adding taunt to roar and improving iron skin.  That was his goal back when iron skin lasted long enough to not suck and drew enemy fire away from allies when active.  Before he was reduced to a roar-stomp bot.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Ronyn]

-----

 

Clarify some stuff real quick- Old rhino stomp was pure CC, no damage. Iron skin use to draw aggro decently.

Now a few things to note:

 

1: As I said Iron skin use to pull aggro decently. That is one of the most iconic aspects of tanking traditionally.

It is pretty hard to argue that when Rhino was running around literally pulling aggro that he was not a tank.

Although I question how relevant that even is anyway....

it's worth noting that tanking in competitive games (like LOL for example) isn't so much about aggro control cause you're fighting other human players. It tends to be more about placement, imposing enemy placement, proper position, pushing the line,zoning, even CC..etc.

 

2: I challenge the assertion that "tanks are particularly slow".  Slower in walking than others sure..but not particularly slow.

Depending on the game they are often very capable of moving from one place to another to be the first in the fray or to protect people as needed. The famous "charge" skill for tank types is about as common as it comes. Often they also have some sort of leap to allies aid skill as well. So while tanks don't generally have high walk/run speed compared to other classes...

they quite often have the tools to initiate quickly and place themselves between allies and enemies at a moments notice.

 

3: Saying "Tanks being mostly mitigation and rhino only had one defensive ability" is something of a slant in itself.

A-In the earlier days of warframe Rhinos high base stats made him a super sturdy warframe comparatively. 

B-with only four powers to work with and no cooldown to limit how often they are used....

One power in warframe may very well act as the corner stone of a frame that is relied more than all others combined.

C-"Mitigating damage" for allies requires more than just being sturdy in itself.

It requires being sturdy (iron skin), being able to actually get to where you are needed (charge), and usually comes with an OH NO button when allies are in danger of being killed (stomp).

From the perspective of "what does a tank need to do his job" it could be argued that Rhino had 3 "mitigation" abilities....

now that isn't to say that is ALL those abilities are. Charge was also a damage skill and stomp mitagated through CC...

 

4: Bruisers and tanks are very similar in many ways. So much so there is a lot of overlap on their usual array of powers capability. 

Heck, in a lot of games the same class has a tank and bruiser build that is changed by either a few moves or a few different stats from an alternate item build. 

In some games tanks do very little damage themselves, in others they do respectable amounts. 

In some games Crowd control is common on tanks, in others it is not. Lot's of ways to go...

If I had to define the difference between tank and bruiser it is one simple place.

Bruisers are tough and can protect themselves,Tanks are tough and can protect themselves AND others.

 

5: We could dissect the flavor text and the videos if we like (I've done it may times) and transcribe them here (I've done that too)

Being fair, when looking at everything said between the flavor text and video.

This isn't about somebody taking one word like "heavy" the wrong way. 

There are multiple statements, there is every reason to think that Rhino is supposed to be a tank based on his description.

Now some might argue that maybe those are outdated, misrepresenting old things that essentially don't really matter....maybe, maybe not.

But the thing is we don't have another source to pull from. That is the closest thing to an official declaration of DE's intended design that we have.

 

6: Honestly I can see why some folks consider rhino a tank (or ex-tank) and why some don't.

I have my own stance on the issue but being real with it....

I don't think it's fair to go so far as to act like whoever disagrees on it is "wrong" or "doesn't get it" or whatever.

I'd say he is close enough the edge of this issue for it to remain debatable at least.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[Holeypaladin]

I can just imagine the nova who gets shot down by enemy fighting being like "Oh man, I'm so glad the enemies killed me rather than wasting their bullets on someone who can take them and still keep fighting!"

 

Except I actually can't imagine that at all.

 

Why shouldn't we add a tanking mechanic to Warframe?  It would help mitigate damage done to the entire team if a roar augment drew enemy fire, but only so long as the rhino survived the incoming damage, hence a need for better iron skin.

[Clats01]

and now you know why  some people call him rhinoob, cause all you noobs use him. this is why every time i see one in game i cringe a little, just for the fact rarely do you see high level mastery players use him 24/7 like the low to mid range masters.

 

don't get me wrong he has uses but when it comes to late game the time it takes to activate iron skin can and will get you killed or if you do manage to cast it you lose it in 1-2 shots, iron skin has never had a face tanking purpose its there for people who want to take just a little extra damage before going down, and like everything has its limitations. and to be honest rhino drops off massively around 20 mins in T4 surv, even if set up right, and now with nullifiers even more so.

[Azawarau]

I can just imagine the nova who gets shot down by enemy fighting being like "Oh man, I'm so glad the enemies killed me rather than wasting their bullets on someone who can take them and still keep fighting!"

 

Except I actually can't imagine that at all.

 

Why shouldn't we add a tanking mechanic to Warframe?  It would help mitigate damage done to the entire team if a roar augment drew enemy fire, but only so long as the rhino survived the incoming damage, hence a need for better iron skin.

There arent many things that mitigate damage better than M prime.....

 

Or get its damage output

 

Or range

[Holeypaladin]

I imagine most high mastery people don't use Rhino so much for the same reason I stopped... because iron skin doesn't work against high level enemies.

 

But it's funny to hear people calling someone of higher mastery rank a noob just because they want a rework if iron skin.  Bit biased, are we?

Edited January 16, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[RealPandemonium]

I can just imagine the nova who gets shot down by enemy fighting being like "Oh man, I'm so glad the enemies killed me rather than wasting their bullets on someone who can take them and still keep fighting!"

 

Except I actually can't imagine that at all.

 

Why shouldn't we add a tanking mechanic to Warframe?  It would help mitigate damage done to the entire team if a roar augment drew enemy fire, but only so long as the rhino survived the incoming damage, hence a need for better iron skin.

If you really want to play a traditional MMORPG then play one of the numerous WoW clones available for your leisure.  DE clearly didn't want to define concrete "roles" for each warframe and it shows in their design decisions.  A torrent of mislead and opinionated feedback is the greatest threat to the integrity of DE's designs, which has been eroding for a while now.

[Holeypaladin]

If you really want to play a traditional MMORPG then play one of the numerous WoW clones available for your leisure.  DE clearly didn't want to define concrete "roles" for each warframe and it shows in their design decisions.  A torrent of mislead and opinionated feedback is the greatest threat to the integrity of DE's designs, which has been eroding for a while now.

100% wrong.

 

Roles are clearly defined for almost all warframes.  And the feedback is essential in order to maximize player satisfaction.

 

If people want to play a tank that draws fire away from allies, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have that option.

[RealPandemonium]

100% wrong.

 

Roles are clearly defined for almost all warframes.  And the feedback is essential in order to maximize player satisfaction.

 

If people want to play a tank that draws fire away from allies, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have that option.

Nuh-uh!

[Azawarau]

Nuh-uh!

[SIDESTRE4M]

What roles do we have?

 

Focus on damage.

Focus on support/utility.

 

A few frames cross the lines.

 

Someone correct me but when tank is considered as a role, this game would need an aggro-mechanic as well. Not just affecting Rhino.