Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[fatpig84]

Okay so I decided to play a 1 hour survival again.

So how does a nekros have maximum damage, most kills and LEAST damage taken ?

 

The ability to position to yourself properly or gasp.... avoid the line of fire ?

While still being able to gun down your enemies ?

 

 

 

And to prove this isn't fake.

I got a screenshot of the table right here.

The position might have moved but my name is there.

 

 

 

Look if my Nekros can do that, on top of pressing 3 and having CRAP for defense abilities.

I assure you any Rhino using the exact same loadout will have no problems getting waay more kills, deal waaay more damage and taking waaay less damage.

 

Face tanking doesn't mean you have to get hit.

You can be in their face gunning them down and take nary a scratch.

In fact Rhino Prime with Arcane Vanguard is just as swift as Loki.

 

That is how solid Rhino is.

 

And at 50 minutes, bombards are already level 82.

They will 1 shot pretty much my nekros or anyone in my squad.

So it forces everyone to split up due to the nasty AOE.

Nullifiers would have 1 hit me long before they reach 80 as well.

 

In fact just a few randoms bullet from any random mob will end me immediately.

Rhino ? With a buffed up iron skin, he still has enough shields to laugh it off, even from a Nullifer or Bombard.

That is a huge deal compared to many other frames who don't have the same luxury.

 

 

So bottom line is you CAN face tank with Rhino, just don't get hit.

I am not going to explain how you are not going to get hit.

This you have to learn it on your own.

 

Edited January 16, 2015 by fatpig84

[SIDESTRE4M]

Well said.

 

However the problem is, that OP actually WANTS to facetank the easy way, because he thinks Rhino should be able to do that.

 

You won't convince him that way.

[UnknownBlademaster]

23 pages of saying the exact same thing to OP yet he's too stubborn to let down and is requesting for godmode so he can afk left click. 

 

/thread

[Azawarau]

23 pages of saying the exact same thing to OP yet he's too stubborn to let down and is requesting for godmode so he can afk macro. 

 

/thread

Fixed that for you !

[Thaumatos]

So bottom line is you CAN face tank with Rhino, just don't get hit.

I'm sorry, but that's about the dumbest line I've heard about anything in a long time.

 

That's like saying, "You can fly, as long as you aren't touching the ground."

 

Anyone can do that.  Not getting hit is not Rhino-specific.  You haven't solved anything, you just made a big post, with screenshots, that boils down to three words: "learn to dodge".  

 

OP wants to play Rhino differently than every other frame dodging bullets to survive.  Agree or disagree with his methods, but I believe that frames playing differently is a good thing.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Thaumatos

[fatpig84]

Well said.

 

However the problem is, that OP actually WANTS to facetank the easy way, because he thinks Rhino should be able to do that.

 

You won't convince him that way.

 

Honestly if people want to learn "tanking" and "evasion" well.

The first step is to throw them into a frame without great survivability skills. no strong defensive stats or weak sauce CC.

:Like Nekros or Ember etc.

 

If you can shine in those, you will get those "skills" ingrained to you.

Then suddenly you remember Rhino Prime seems a lot tankier than you remember.

 

Hue.

[fatpig84]

I'm sorry, but that's about the dumbest line I've heard about anything in a long time.

 

That's like saying, "You can fly, as long as you aren't touching the ground."

 

Anyone can do that.  Not getting hit is not Rhino-specific.  You haven't solved anything, you just made a big post, with screenshots, that boils down to three words: "learn to dodge".  

 

OP wants to play Rhino differently than every other frame dodging bullets to survive.  Agree or disagree with his methods, but I believe that frames playing differently is a good thing.

 

I have to disagree because it encourages players to be lazy, unless you are going to give survival abilities drawbacks that makes them impossible to dodge with in the first place.

 

Like iron skin getting a 20% speed reduction, then that is fair enough.

But I rather not let it go there.

 

Warframe is still partly twitch shooting and a enjoyable one to boot.

We should promoting more damage avoidance mechanics rather than just rely on straight modifiers to make things easier.

Edited January 16, 2015 by fatpig84

[Ronyn]

So bottom line is you CAN face tank with Rhino, just don't get hit.

This doesn't make sense.

If you're not getting hit you are not facetanking.

 

 

I have to disagree because it encourages players to be lazy, unless you are going to give survival abilities drawbacks that makes them impossible to dodge with in the first place.

It's totally fine to disagree with the playstyle that the OP wants. (I don't entirely agree with him either)

heck, you could say "I dont want facetanking in warframe" and that would be fine.

It's just that your above line doesn't make sense.

Facetanking requires that you ARE getting hit..thats what facetanking means.

Take gears of war for example: A dedicated cover based shooter.

When you get one of those big shields you can step out, block damage directly, and act as the front line for your team.

THAT is face tanking. As you can see that is a very clear example of the difference between taking cover and face tanking. 

 

 

 

Honestly if people want to learn "tanking" and "evasion" well.

The first step is to throw them into a frame without great survivability skills. no strong defensive stats or weak sauce CC.

:Like Nekros or Ember etc.

 

If you can shine in those, you will get those "skills" ingrained to you.

Then suddenly you remember Rhino Prime seems a lot tankier than you remember.

 

Hue.

There is merit in that lessen but remember the difference in goal here.

Being a tank doesn't just mean "I'm tougher than others so when I do get hit I live longer".

Being a tank means you are tough enough that purposely blocking hits somehow is part of your job.

 

Now it doesn't have to mean blocking by taking hits directly on the chin...lol

Like how frost throws up a big bubble that stops enemy fire from doing damage to those inside.

He is purposely blocking hits. That is being a tank.

 

That works because enemies can still potentially get past it by entering the bubble.

It's a little trickier to balance iron skin because there is no way around it. 

It blocks everything under all circumstances until broken. It lacks counterplay.

That is why it's hard to balance it to be useful but too strong.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Ronyn

[RealPandemonium]

OP wants to play Rhino differently than every other frame dodging bullets to survive.  Agree or disagree with his methods, but I believe that frames playing differently is a good thing.

He already mentioned that he found some frames that can do it already, so he can play those frames instead of demanding thing x frame do y thing "because I say so."

[Astrotrap]

>amazing CC

>decent survivability

>great buffs

>decent mobility

 

Rhino is a support frame.

 

Also, the Codex says he's the "heaviest Warframe, combining offensive and defensive abilities". Players are the people who call him a tank.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Honestly if people want to learn "tanking" and "evasion" well.

The first step is to throw them into a frame without great survivability skills. no strong defensive stats or weak sauce CC.

:Like Nekros or Ember etc.

 

If you can shine in those, you will get those "skills" ingrained to you.

Then suddenly you remember Rhino Prime seems a lot tankier than you remember.

 

Hue.

 

OP just wants to be the big beefy guy that runs into the room, enjoys beeing invincible and as side effect helps his teammates if Iron Skin actually would work that way.

 

Question is: Do we want fleshed out roles like that or not and I'm on the fence with that, because that would lead to rpg class style and that... I don't seek in warframe at all.

[Ronyn]

 

Also, the Codex says he's the "heaviest Warframe, combining offensive and defensive abilities". Players are the people who call him a tank.

It's not just players. The official video also calls Rhino a tank. 

 

He already mentioned that he found some frames that can do it already, so he can play those frames instead of demanding thing x frame do y thing "because I say so."

Not just because he says so but because that is his understanding what DE described his role was.

It's fine to disagree with him but there is no need to act like he is just making it up out of nowhere.

 

 

OP just wants to be the big beefy guy that runs into the room, enjoys beeing invincible and as side effect helps his teammates if Iron Skin actually would work that way.

 

Question is: Do we want fleshed out roles like that or not and I'm on the fence with that, because that would lead to rpg class style and that... I don't seek in warframe at all.

Op's wants are sort of rough..not ideal...heh

But the point is that there are already some pretty clear examples of fleshed out roles in warframe.

Rhino can be a true tank without it having to go to the extreme of invincibility...

Rhino can draw aggro with iron skin without it having to lead to the extreme of the whole standing in one spot style of tanking found in mmorpg's.

[Azawarau]

His entire argument has been because i say so, because rhino isnt a tank, or because another frame has ore armor

 

Those arent real reasons

 

Rhino is a tank in the sense that hes tougher than most frames and offers team support

 

Theres nothing wrong with the roles of tanks being divided between multiple frames

 

This guy really just wants to push cliches all over and i seriously dont know why youre giving him an ounce of support

 

And dont say you arent.

[Holeypaladin]

Heh, never have I used that whole "Because I said so" crap.  I've always referred to DE's words and evidence of what they wanted Rhino to be from the beginning.  "Heaviest frame" - DE "Combining offense and DEFENSIVE abilities" -DE "described as a tank in the video" -DE.

 

None of those are my words, they're words they the devs mentioned when they came up with the concept of Rhino and have not properly upheld in the past year and a half.  For a "Defensive ability", Iron Skin is the second worst in the game now that shield trasnference, an AUGMENT to an already useful ability, is finally a little bit worse.  The "heaviest" frame as DE describes as a tank in his video should NOT have the weakest non-augment defensive ability.  He should have the strongest defensive abilities, instead, or at least tied between Frost and Valkyr and above everything else.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Azawarau]

Heh, never have I used that whole "Because I said so" crap.  I've always referred to DE's words and evidence of what they wanted Rhino to be from the beginning.  "Heaviest frame" - DE "Combining offense and DEFENSIVE abilities" -DE "described as a tank in the video" -DE.

 

None of those are my words, they're words they the devs mentioned when they came up with the concept of Rhino and have not properly upheld in the past year and a half.  For a "Defensive ability", Iron Skin is the second worst in the game now that shield trasnference, an AUGMENT to an already useful ability, is finally a little bit worse.  The "heaviest" frame as DE describes as a tank in his video should NOT have the weakest non-augment defensive ability.  He should have the strongest defensive abilities, instead, or at least tied between Frost and Valkyr and above everything else.

I actually far too lazy to waste time quoting your terrible arguments but you have many times used that type of argument to the point where i even argued back the same way to see what youd say and it didnt change

 

Valkyr is a face tank frame because her melee is effective that way

 

Rhino Is less tanky because he has things to make up for that

[Beetamus]

After 24 pages people are still whining about he said this, or he said that. Here's an idea, how about constructive discussions about the ability? While I don't wholeheartedly agree with OP about everything, I do think Iron skin needs to be made to scale better. some ideas have brought up, which is what I think DE is looking for from the feedback forums.

 

This isn't the thread, but since others have compared I personally would be happy for Valkyr to lose invulnerability and gain a buff to melee damage. Keep her high armour to help her get into melee and maybe add immunity to knockdown and lifesteal so she can stay in the thick of it. Obviously you would still have to stay somewhat mobile and coptering and directional melee is not too bad.

 

As for Rhino, i'm not sure about how to fix the scaling, but no frame should have % damage reduction, even though it seems an easy fix. Making armour count somehow as mentioned previously could be a good start.

[Holeypaladin]

Armor is essentially % reduction too.  So there's not really a whole lot of difference between % reduction and armor-based reduction.

 

Rhino's armor would need to be up near Valkyr's in order for an armor-based reduction to work.  But if it WERE as high as valkyr's I'd say a good iron-skin fix would be to apply armor rating to all damage dealt to shields... currently, it only affects damage dealt to health, but Rhino is a shield-focused tank as compared to Valkyr's health-based tank.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Beetamus]

Ok, my bad. I should have said skill based % damage reduction :)

 

And yes, I agree that just increasing his armour would do little, as you said he mainly uses either shields or iron skin. I would rather have iron skin have armour modify it to a degree (DE can do the math) and have mag as a kind of shield tank. That way we have a variety of ways to tank damage, with rhino being the strongest because of immune to both CC and procs, and not just having the best damage absorbsion

Edited January 16, 2015 by Beetamus

[Azawarau]

After 24 pages people are still whining about he said this, or he said that. Here's an idea, how about constructive discussions about the ability? While I don't wholeheartedly agree with OP about everything, I do think Iron skin needs to be made to scale better. some ideas have brought up, which is what I think DE is looking for from the feedback forums.

 

This isn't the thread, but since others have compared I personally would be happy for Valkyr to lose invulnerability and gain a buff to melee damage. Keep her high armour to help her get into melee and maybe add immunity to knockdown and lifesteal so she can stay in the thick of it. Obviously you would still have to stay somewhat mobile and coptering and directional melee is not too bad.

 

As for Rhino, i'm not sure about how to fix the scaling, but no frame should have % damage reduction, even though it seems an easy fix. Making armour count somehow as mentioned previously could be a good start.

OP wants an overbuff to rhino

 

And hes been doing all the whining if you havnt noticed

 

If you read the thread youll see alot of bad arguments with little reason behind them aside from "it should be this way because"

 

Rhinos iron skin definitely needs a change but not the kind the OP wants

 

He just wants a broken rhino

 

At this point im just dragging the troll on the dead horse beating beaten in this thread to keep him busy

 

Ill take other posters more seriously but not OP

[Holeypaladin]

Broken Rhino would be asking for invincibility back like broken Valkyr has.

 

Broken Rhino would be asking for 95% DR since that's what broken Mirage and broken Mesa have.

 

Balanced Rhino instead asks for 85% DR for both iron skin and hysteria and a removal of power scaling to shatter shield and eclipse, to bring all damage reduction skills fairly close to each other (ranging 75%-87.5% for Trinity)

 

Big difference.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Azawarau]

Broken Rhino would be asking for invincibility back like broken Valkyr has.

 

Broken Rhino would be asking for 95% DR since that's what broken Mirage and broken Mesa have.

 

Balanced Rhino instead asks for 85% DR for both iron skin and hysteria and a removal of power scaling to shatter shield and eclipse, to bring all damage reduction skills fairly close to each other (ranging 75%-87.5% for Trinity)

 

Big difference.

You really dont understand what youre talking about ._.

 

Think about 85% on top of shields and armor

 

DONT REPLY YET

 

Stop

 

Put the mouse down

 

And think

 

His armor already grants something like 60% DR with steel fiber

 

Now add that +85% DR + QT and rage + CC immunity+Regening shields

 

STOP

 

Stooooop

 

Think for a minute then answer

[Holeypaladin]

Hm... compared to the current mirage/mesa powers... his shields would go down faster.  Trinity's would go down before his since her shields are lower, but not by much (if her DR was 90% they'd go down at the same time).

 

And then for damage on health... he might die around the same time as Mirage/Mesa from health damage, because his armor would help him keep up a bit better.

 

So currently... it'd make him almost as hard to kill as Mirage is in the shade, but not quite.  And almost as hard to kill as Mesa is from bullet damage, but again not quite.  But it'd make him tank better than Trinity, at least.  Still nowhere near Valkyr's invulnerability.

 

If the power scaling is removed from mirage and mesa's DR abilities, then yes he'd outlast them.  But isn't he supposed to?

 

And then factoring in low level missions where iron skin is essentially god mode because 1200 damage is more than the enemies can deal... nooby Rhino frames would actually take real damage rather than ignoring all damage completely.  So there is that to consider, as well.  Plus unranked iron skin might only give about 40% resistance which isn't much at all.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Azawarau]

Hm... compared to the current mirage/mesa powers... his shields would go down faster.  Trinity's would go down before his since her shields are lower, but not by much (if her DR was 90% they'd go down at the same time).

 

And then for damage on health... he might die around the same time as Mirage/Mesa from health damage, because his armor would help him keep up a bit better.

 

So currently... it'd make him almost as hard to kill as Mirage is in the shade, but not quite.  And almost as hard to kill as Mesa is from bullet damage, but again not quite.  But it'd make him tank better than Trinity, at least.  Still nowhere near Valkyr's invulnerability.

 

If the power scaling is removed from mirage and mesa's DR abilities, then yes he'd outlast them.  But isn't he supposed to?

 

And then factoring in low level missions where iron skin is essentially god mode because 1200 damage is more than the enemies can deal... nooby Rhino frames would actually take real damage rather than ignoring all damage completely.  So there is that to consider, as well.  Plus unranked iron skin might only give about 40% resistance which isn't much at all.

You didnt consider armor at all

 

Or that mesa has to be in the shade which limits her ability to avoid taking damage

 

Or that he cant be stunned at all for the entire duration of iron skin

 

And how is unrakned iron skin even relevant?

[fatpig84]

OP just wants to be the big beefy guy that runs into the room, enjoys beeing invincible and as side effect helps his teammates if Iron Skin actually would work that way.

 

Question is: Do we want fleshed out roles like that or not and I'm on the fence with that, because that would lead to rpg class style and that... I don't seek in warframe at all.

 

Like I said waay earlier, if OP wants that, DE will have to balance out the rest of Rhino's skill kit.

Or essentially nerf Rhino just to buff 1 skill.

 

And I don't like traditional RPG roles in Warframe.

Edited January 17, 2015 by fatpig84

[TheOniStixx]

 

Anyone else get this feeling?