Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Ronyn]

My definition of invincible is, a means to create a loop of circumstances that guarantee enemies cannot possibly kill you.

With near infinite energy, how could we realistically avert that outcome?

Warframes energy/power system is built in such a way that the only real limiter of power use is running out of energy.

Powers that are made to be meaningful with certain limited amounts of energy become overpowered when they can be used too much.

As long as people are finding and using infinite energy sources there will be power spam and almost all powers will potentially break the game. 

 

I can agree to this, 

If by that you mean-In themselves the mechanics seem good? I agree.

 

 exploitable

If by that you mean the potential cast,recast,recast,recast,recast,...and never actually be in danger of dying? I agree.

 

I understand your concerns. I mean sure I could throw out more numbers, set a base number for iron skin, set a cap that it can reach under any circumstance. We could theorize some reasonable numbers based on what iron skins max EHP is now...etc 

All that is good and helpful but two problems persist. One, the infinite energy issue mentioned above and two...

To be real here we can't even have any reasonable guesstimates at the numerical values of this stuff until we set some medians.

First question really be: Are we trying to create a balance around end game meaning level 40 enemies,level 60 enemies. 70? 

By end game I mean the last enemy level where players should expect the games balance to be right. 

Cause I know endless mode's aren't meant to be balanced for and people who go into them will be pushing into silly territory.

But then again...does the idea of level 40 enemies being the end game point feel right anymore?

It's got to be set higher than that right? 

[Beetamus]

Definitely has to be set higher than level 40 enemies.

 

As we get better and better mods, and now in particular we have 8 slots instead of 6 + abilities, it is much easier to max out your frame without lots of forma-ing, as we don't have to worry about the wrong polarities from the abilities costing us more.

 

As an example, I think balancing for wave 30 T4D is end game, not any later. obviously you can still go further, but that's about where most of the pug groups i've been in tend to really have trouble going past. That example is with a Frost and 3 other whatever people want to bring.

 

Not sure what level that would make them though.

[Holeypaladin]

Most PUGs have trouble getting past 20 waves on T4D because snow globe is a deathtrap for bombards...

 

Defense might be a bad example.  Survival might be a better one.  Most teams aim for about 40 mins of survival.  By the end of those 40 mins, enemies are like level 60 or so.

 

Expecting any abilities to last past 40 mins is pretty unreasonable... but most key holders don't want to use their key for less than two rotation C rewards.

 

But yeah, if iron skin allowed me to tank 40 mins on T4 Survival, I'd say it was working well.  I've tanked 40 mins using Mirage before, by staying in the shadows in certain rooms.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I would say it's bs and OP. But to each their own.

And you stayed in dark rooms with Mirage all the time? Kay.

 

How long do you want to tank level 60 enemies without drawbacks?

Edited January 23, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Beetamus]

That's just the thing, drawbacks.

 

I wouldn't mind if while IS was on we moved slower, or couldn't dodge or something to offset the tankiness.

 

Also, while i'm thinking Rhino, how's about we change Rhino Charge to either a duration or toggle ability that makes us more like Juggernaught from the X-Men comics. Enemies suffer something like a blast proc when we contact them, in a similar idea to Volts augment for speed. While we lose the rush ahead, maybe we can gain speed if we keep running in a straight line.

[geninrising]

With near infinite energy, how could we realistically avert that outcome?

Warframes energy/power system is built in such a way that the only real limiter of power use is running out of energy.

Powers that are made to be meaningful with certain limited amounts of energy become overpowered when they can be used too much.

As long as people are finding and using infinite energy sources there will be power spam and almost all powers will potentially break the game. 

 

If by that you mean-In themselves the mechanics seem good? I agree.

 

If by that you mean the potential cast,recast,recast,recast,recast,...and never actually be in danger of dying? I agree.

 

I understand your concerns. I mean sure I could throw out more numbers, set a base number for iron skin, set a cap that it can reach under any circumstance. We could theorize some reasonable numbers based on what iron skins max EHP is now...etc 

All that is good and helpful but two problems persist. One, the infinite energy issue mentioned above and two...

To be real here we can't even have any reasonable guesstimates at the numerical values of this stuff until we set some medians.

First question really be: Are we trying to create a balance around end game meaning level 40 enemies,level 60 enemies. 70? 

By end game I mean the last enemy level where players should expect the games balance to be right. 

Cause I know endless mode's aren't meant to be balanced for and people who go into them will be pushing into silly territory.

But then again...does the idea of level 40 enemies being the end game point feel right anymore?

It's got to be set higher than that right? 

What we would need to do is envision balance being at about level 40 due to the fact that all frames are balanced against this mark. Otherwise we beget power creep amongst the frames more so than has already occurred. Currently no damage dealing or damage reduction ability is over tuned to be insanely useful past level 40. In fact they are tuned to just about start their fall off in effectiveness at levels 31-35. Frost's snow globe for instance has it's absorption scaling simply because he could not defend the pod within the solar system to 5 waves at one point.

 

DE has stated many times that content is balanced where frames are level 30 and enemies are too. After that things fall in favor of the enemies. The reason this is done is to ensure that nothing is broken op throughout the end game content. However through players careful min maxing with corrupted mods this has occurred time and time again. The key difference there is that they utilize the corrupted mods and trade off various portions of their statistics in order to gain such high levels of power.

 

My fear is that this iteration of Rhino would not need to make sacrifices in order to become that godlike presence.

 

 

That's just the thing, drawbacks.

 

I wouldn't mind if while IS was on we moved slower, or couldn't dodge or something to offset the tankiness.

 

Also, while i'm thinking Rhino, how's about we change Rhino Charge to either a duration or toggle ability that makes us more like Juggernaught from the X-Men comics. Enemies suffer something like a blast proc when we contact them, in a similar idea to Volts augment for speed. While we lose the rush ahead, maybe we can gain speed if we keep running in a straight line.

These would both be positive in regards to keeping Rhino in check partially and provide great synergy. Charge would allow Rhino to have more speed at times to offset his iron physique. I would offset the potential ability to molest enemies with Charge via use of a limited lateral control mechanic making it hard for Rhino to turn left and right, which would play well thematically with the idea that he is like a wild Rhino Charging into the fray.

 

Synergy is the one thing I think that prevents frames from being truly great. DE has done great with Ember's accelerant and Limbo's Rift mechanics, however I feel they have missed the opportunity to do so much more.

 

 

Most PUGs have trouble getting past 20 waves on T4D because snow globe is a deathtrap for bombards...

 

Defense might be a bad example.  Survival might be a better one.  Most teams aim for about 40 mins of survival.  By the end of those 40 mins, enemies are like level 60 or so.

 

Expecting any abilities to last past 40 mins is pretty unreasonable... but most key holders don't want to use their key for less than two rotation C rewards.

Most pugs I play make 40 waves easily. any Frost worth his salt has a stretched snow globe to allow room for players to avoid Rockets while inside.

 

Being able to Tank level 60 enemies for more than 5 seconds per cast is unreasonable.

 

Additionally I can guarantee you are exaggerating about tanking anything with Mirage up to 40 minutes or 40 waves. It's plain to see that even in the normal solar system one cannot tank very much at ALL if there are bombards or nullifiers present. SMH.

 

What makes you think any Vet will ever trust your word when the preponderance of evidence in our experiences tells us you are speaking falsehoods? That's precisely why everyone here has questioned or countered nearly every single thing you have said. Not a person here has ever agreed with any statement you have made. Why? because you EXAGGERATE in order to make your plight seem more real. 

 

Did it in T4 you say? in the shadows? 40 minutes? Just to prove the point I'll brb.

 

 

Edit:10 fkn minutes. 10 fkn minutes max is how long Mirage lasts trying to "Tank" in t4 survivals and defenses(barring outside influences of teammates so lets clarify that point further. The enemies were level 35-38. Bombards started coming and a few heavy gunners. 1 bombard had gotten near me and hit me point blank with a rocket which in and of itself was not such a  big deal however while I was knocked down due to the rocket he fired 2 more AND a heavy gunner sprayed me till dead.

1st test 8 min 37 seconds. 2nd test 10 min 23 seconds. Both times dead from a single occurrence of knockdown. Test 1 a rocket. Test 2 a ground slam by a bombard followed by a lancer and a nullifier.

 

Maximum 10 minutes and 23 seconds in T4 Surv. Constantly in the shadows due to one massive room I found with a long slope and multiple raised areas on the left and right. 5 minutes of trying to "tank" using both Hall of Mirrors and  Eclipse. Was moving quickly to cause enemies to lose LoS due to obstructions caused by elevation, randomly rising cover points, and massive pillars. Ensured that I focused Heavy gunners and Bombards to minimize risks involved. Was using my 6 forma catalyzed Amprex and my 4 Forma catalyzed Synoid Gamacore,(first test) 2nd test same room same frame setup(tankiest I could build) weapons 5 forma catalyzed Kohm(nominally I can run t4 survivals longer than 60 minutes without worry of ammo or not being able to kill a target) 4 Forma catalyzed Telos AKBolto(to help with health regen).

 

Lets further clarify the situation.

 

5 Forma Mirage corrosive projection Aura.

 

Build is as follows. 

All mods are maxed rank. Fleeting Expertise, Primed Flow, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Primed continuity, Redirection, Vitality, and Vigor(second testing cycle I swapped in Reflex Guard taking out Vigor). Tankiest build I could find.

 

Also tried Reflex guard in place of Vigor on the second test. Results the same, only lasted longer due to periodically proc'ing Telos AkBoltos. I was in fact utilizing health restores and Team shield restores every time it was necessary. The problem is that her damage mitigation is not in fact very much on her fragile frame, so once I got knocked down each time it meant DEATH.

 

Ran each test setup 3 times to confirm if it was a fluke or a consistent occurrence. Each of my deaths were due to precisely the same types of circumstances. OP homing rockets or catching a ground slam coming around a corner.

 

So let me say sir IF you did make it that far "in the shadows" it was obviously hiding from the enemies while your friendlies handled them OR Nova/Loki was present to ensure you did not get utterly wiped in short order. So in other words YOU did not "tank" just fine till 40 minutes.

 

HoleyPaladin:

It's not OPINION, it's FACT as stated by DE in their videos.  Tank means more durable than ALL non-tank frames.  Especially "Glass cannon" types like Mirage.  95% is god-mode, pure and simple.  There's a difference between surviving and godmoding.  Rhino doesn't get to survive bombards to the face in endgame, so why should Mirage?

She doesn't do well at all.

 

Broken Rhino would be asking for 95% DR since that's what broken Mirage and broken Mesa have

Not broken at all.

 

Please cease your exaggerations of every single thing you bring up.

 

Oh consequently 50 minute t4 survival SOLO as Rhino just last night because quite frankly I am tired of you saying he is not top tier TANK. It appears sir that you have some faulty assumptions on Rhino and the rest of the cast in general. In case you were wondering I used an all around build with no corrupted mods at all.

Edited January 23, 2015 by geninrising

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I don't know why everyone keeps saying they want Rhino to be slower.  He's already the slowest warframe.  What good is a tank who gets left behind?  He can't tank anything from the rear.

 

Do you enjoy waiting out that full minute countdown at the end of missions?  I don't.  I'd like all warframes to be fast enough to keep up with the team, rather than forcing me to wait at that extraction point for an extended period of time and not contributing to the mission at all.

 

Something I'd like to point out- Vanguard helmet (yes, the arcane version is no longer obtainable. It's still out there though) and Rhino Prime. Both counteract the slow-ness of a standard Rhino (and if you have both, you'll be outrunning other teammates.) So I can see where people are coming from when they talk about making him slower.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Something I'd like to point out- Vanguard helmet (yes, the arcane version is no longer obtainable. It's still out there though) and Rhino Prime. Both counteract the slow-ness of a standard Rhino (and if you have both, you'll be outrunning other teammates.) So I can see where people are coming from when they talk about making him slower.

 

Like so often Holeypaladin shifted the words a bit. Originally it was a response to my idea to give Rhino some sort of mobile Nyx Asorb without explosion, but a damage multiplier for team mates, to tank at tough spots. In order to not make it a walking godmode, I proposed a 50% speed debuff and negated parkouring so the team can't copter through the maps with their tank. It makes sense, because you don't need a tank when you can copter steamroll the content with ease.

 

However what he really wants, is casting his Skin and take walk in the park at really highlevel content.

He masks it with intention with this whole tank class debate and everytime we discuss a real tank that fits into his role and not some semi-theme, he takes a step back and everytime he's cornered, he pulls out Mirage.

 

I have Mirage polarized a few times. She is built based on power strength and duration. I did some missions on Ceres and you can't just stand in the middle and let yourself shoot like duckhunt when lvl35 enemies including Hellions/Gunners/Napalms are around.

 

Of course it's not hard when you play accordingly, but he tells facetanking fairy tales about facetanking lvl 60 on t4.

Edited January 23, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Ronyn]

What we would need to do is envision balance being at about level 40 due to the fact that all frames are balanced against this mark. Otherwise we beget power creep amongst the frames more so than has already occurred. Currently no damage dealing or damage reduction ability is over tuned to be insanely useful past level 40. In fact they are tuned to just about start their fall off in effectiveness at levels 31-35. Frost's snow globe for instance has it's absorption scaling simply because he could not defend the pod within the solar system to 5 waves at one point.

 

DE has stated many times that content is balanced where frames are level 30 and enemies are too. After that things fall in favor of the enemies. The reason this is done is to ensure that nothing is broken op throughout the end game content. However through players careful min maxing with corrupted mods this has occurred time and time again. The key difference there is that they utilize the corrupted mods and trade off various portions of their statistics in order to gain such high levels of power.

I'm aware that DE claims that balance is aimed at about 40 but I think there are two many inconsistencies related to that at this point.

For example: A warframe can be potatoed or not AND/OR forma'd anywhere from several times to never. Can be with or without corrupted and/or primed mods? The resulting differences from those things can easily stretch a frames power ceiling 10 to 20 levels higher if not more.

So is DE's proclaimed "endgame" of level 40 aimed at the most basic version of a level 30 frame or the most powerful one?

It absolutely can't be both.

If an "endgame" is matched for base level 30's then a min/maxed version is going to blow past that and look for challenge in endless modes.

If an "endgame" is matched for min/maxed level 30's then a base level version is going to get killed trying to reach it.

And that hasn't even begun to question which weapon a person is holding.

 

Realistically, we are looking at the same sort of thing we would see in a traditional mmorpg with vertical progression.

Where how strong you are when you first hit max level is far below how strong you are when you are once fully geared.

That is why there are things like "heroic" versions of dungeons. The regular version is for max level classes, the heroic version is for max geared classes. 

 

But then we have another inconsistency, certain types of power scale much better than others.

Crowd Control becomes king when more direct defensive and offensive powers fall off.

This doesn't stop players from trying to go higher in the game to find challenge, it simply causes players to think "CC is what this game is about" 

Which heavily lessons the variety of themes, roles and archetypes that players can expect to play as in an challenging environment. 

 

Basically I'm saying the whole "level 40 is end game" DE has said is just some blurry ideal without clarity or consistency at this point.

If "endgame" is going to make sense what I'd say we need to envision is a rework of the whole paradigm.

 

My fear is that this iteration of Rhino would not need to make sacrifices in order to become that godlike presence.

 

These would both be positive in regards to keeping Rhino in check partially and provide great synergy.....

That's just the thing, drawbacks.

 

I think that is getting overcautious guys.

So far we have been brainstorming a set of mechanics to make sure that Iron skin would viable and balanced a tanking tool.

The gain in function and the drawback to balance it are one in the same: more enemies will now be shooting and attacking rhino. It's based on certain stats and can be temporarily buffed by either raising stats or aggro'ing enemies.

 

What we need now is a base (modded out and press the button) and a cap (maximum effective hit points from all buffs) that makes' sense for the end game. These numbers can't spiral out of control on their own...that's what caps are for.

 

Current strongest Iron skin is 3400 EHP in game right now with no drawback of taking extra fire.

If we set our base version to hit about there, our cap only a bit higher, then there is no reason to think it would be overpowered or need additional control points. Then, like you said, for play testing we simply start with small numbers then make them bigger as needed. 

 

 

Synergy is the one thing I think that prevents frames from being truly great. DE has done great with Ember's accelerant and Limbo's Rift mechanics, however I feel they have missed the opportunity to do so much more.

Well you know how big a fan I am of synergy. :-)

To be fair our idea so far has already increased rhino's power synergy to a meaningful degree. 

 

 

Oh consequently 50 minute t4 survival SOLO as Rhino just last night because quite frankly I am tired of you saying he is not top tier TANK. It appears sir that you have some faulty assumptions on Rhino and the rest of the cast in general. In case you were wondering I used an all around build with no corrupted mods at all.

On the up and up..I've done very long solo survivals as several frames of various roles. Those kinds of runs could be argued as proof that a frame is a top tier frame, but it doesn't prove that it is a top tier tank exactly. That would kind of depend on HOW they run it.

 

Edited January 23, 2015 by Ronyn

[SIDESTRE4M]

More enemies are shooting at Rhino... Ever played solo? Everyone there is shooting at you anyways. If it wasn't a drawback before, I don't see why it's one now.

 

Same is true when you stray from the team or the team is scattered anyways.

Edited January 23, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Ronyn]

More enemies are shooting at Rhino... Ever played solo? Everyone there is shooting at you anyways. If it wasn't a drawback before, I don't see why it's one now.

I play solo a lot actually.  However...

There is a point in the game where a group is required to do the content and THAT is where literally drawing extra fire is a drawback. 

 

Same is true when you stray from the team or the team is scattered anyways.

If everyone is capable of running off and surviving on there own I find it hard to classify that as content where you need a group.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Ronyn

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Keep in mind that Eclipse only costs 25.  For 95% DR in the shade or 200% weapon bonus in the light.  For only 25 energy.

 

Energy costs aren't necessarily the best way to measure an ability's power.  Smoke bomb costs as much as Invisibility for a much shorter duration and unable to cast while airborne.  Just the way it works.

Find me more than 2 shades per tileset that give you that 95% DR, because most shades that you luckily find provide 50-70% DR. Go, find them if you're that smart. Oh, and weapon bonus is just for you, not the whole team.

[SIDESTRE4M]

 

I play solo a lot actually.  However...

There is a point in the game where a group is required to do the content and THAT is where literally drawing extra fire is a drawback. 

 

If everyone is capable of running off and surviving on there own I find it hard to classify that as content where you need a group.

 

 

To be fair, that's quite true.

[Ronyn]

To be fair, that's quite true.

In the same spirit of fairness, I can see why in a solo run grabbing aggro it is not a drawback in itself.

That kind of thing was what I was accounting for when I proposed that iron skin scale on defensive stats instead of power strength and that stomp loose its free exemption from duration lowering effects. Overall this would mean a certain amount of trade off. To get a strong iron skin you have to mod a bit away from those builds focused on spamming a powerful and long lasting stomp. and vice versa..

Where right now, it's too straight forward to build rhino with top level iron skin along with spam powerhouse stomp capability.

What I'm looking to do is allow rhino to build for more effective tanking....or build more for CC and buffing...or build more down the middle...

I'm certainly not trying to just give Rhino a free buff to tanking without having to give up something else.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Since playing solo means a disadvantage anyways, I think it's ok to handle it this way.

[Bobtm]

There's an idea I've been kicking around in my head for a while about a potential alternate Iron Skin.  Now mind you, before a proceed to yammer on about it there are a few things to note;  I don't feel that it's a "complete" idea at all, or particularly even a good one necessarily.  Beyond that point I don't have any form of numbers as to how it would be balanced in that reguard.  Lastly, it is based on a hypothetically new mechanic that, as far as I know, may or may not even be possible to have coded in Warframe at all.

 

Only reason this idea arose is due to some of the issues with the aggro stuff, notedly the "how to gain it" of it.  Though a side reason is to change how the ability plays out in low tier areas as well, stopping it from being the same type of "ignore all things" mode it as at the moment.  Of course like all things at the early stage, it can be stupid op, but all frames can do that if you deck them out.

 

New "Progressive"  Iron Skin

Cost:  35

Cast Speed:  10% slower than the current Iron Skin animation in total time taken.  Ability activation occurs 4/5 of the way through the animation.  Can be cast while airborne, can be slide cast.

Duration:  13 Seconds (at Rank 3)

IS is now affected by duration changes.  It has a minimum duration of 8 seconds, no maximum cap (not opposed to having one, I just don't find it necessary).

 

It still creates a destructible shielding over Rhino when cast, as it does now.  Sadly this part is where I start having issues as I've got legitimately no experience in sucking up damage in a standard style.  The number at start of this base shielding and its increases are an unknown to me overall.  Currently my mindset it to have this IS variant not be effected by Power Strength for the sake of simplicity, however it will be effected by Rhino's armor rating.  Beyond that I'm not on board with buffing his armor rating for this idea yet, not against it but I need more numbers really.

 

The initial casting of this skill, from base, will provide the Rhino with a small amount of shielding (less than current IS at rank 3) and provide him with CC immunity as it does now.  Upon expiring, it will have an effect based upon which expiration was met.

     If IS is broken by enemy fire, it releases a radial burst of Blast Damage.  The damage dealt is 3% of the damage Rhino's IS took before breaking.  This radial burst can proc, its rate of such being somewhere around 20-30%.  Range is 25 Meters, not sure if it should be effected by range.

     If IS is broken because its duration expires, it sends out a blinding shockwave.  Foes are blinded for 3 Seconds, this blind is uneffected by Duration.  Range is 25 Meters, not sure if it should be effected by range.

 

At base, Iron Skin draws no additional aggro to the Rhino at all.

 

However, this Iron Skin can be recast while it is currently active, but this doens't just refresh the skill.  Each successive recast (capped at 4 recasts) will further empower the ability, increasing its damage shell maximum and instantly healing it to its new cap and refreshing its active duration.  Again my lack of knoweldge in the realm of tanking doesn't really allow me to provide numbers for its level of cap at each of these five stages.  As noted before, not effected by Strength, but it will be effected by Rhino's Armor.

 

Each "stage" of Iron Skin will cause Rhino's aggro generation level to increase in a linear progression of 25% per stage.  As noted, the first stage of IS is +0% aggro generation, second is +25%, third is +50%, 4th is +75%, and the final stage is +100% aggro generation.

 

This does not mean that Rhino always has all aggro all the time at his final stage.  His aggro generation is merely doubled, basically if you and an ally are standing at equal distance from an enemy, you're twice as likely to attract that foe's attention if the two of you are preforming the same action.  We already can semi-infer that actions which generate sound also draw aggro, as does one's distance from enemy forces through observing normal enemy behavior during play.  This basically means Rhino will never force foes to target him in a passive way, but he also will not need to directly strike any given foe to get their attention.

 

The core of the idea however hinges upon a mechanic (ability staging) which may not even be possible.  Beyond that it's clearly very unfinished since I'm useless at shielding numbers.  However there is something I do not want these numbers to allow, this is the following;  Rhino, at his final IS stage should not be able to stand in the open, sucking up gunfire in a room during T4S at the ~35 minute mark for more than 5 seconds without his IS failing due to damage absorbed.  Of course this is sort of a rough number, and it's even more rough given how enemy density can and will vary from time to time.

 

Five seconds however would effectively give Rhino enough time to spam his own IS like a dingbat and re-heal it at its final stage and be capable of temporarily turning himself into an aggro sucking sponge in a room during emergencies.  This effect of course would diminish in effectiveness as a standalone strategy after going up into higher levels of survival, but that is something it should do.

 

Anyways, this also opens up somewhat alternate possibilities for Rhino in terms of playstyle.  One of which is to be that "come at me" type of tank which just ticks off all the foes.  Beyond that, the repeat cast spamming noted above would also cause Rhino to eventually nuke the area area around him upon IS's failing for that first case.  Seeing as it would have been absorbing a large amount of damage beforehand.  Of course it's not something one could rely on and it's only 3%, meaning it isn't something which could really be abused unless I'm daft and forgetting/overlooking something.

 

Well yeah, that about covers my barely half baked idea up till now.  Honestly I don't particularly find it to be a better idea than the ones already noted, especially since it's sorely lacking in the most important area, numbers on the shielding aspect.  But it's like I have always said, I'm a mechanics guy with survivability, not a numbers one.

 

So it's like Rhino, but with layers... like an ogre onion.  Because we all know how bad Rhino smells.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Bobtm

[Ronyn]

There's an idea I've been kicking around in my head for a while about a potential alternate Iron Skin.  Now mind you, before a proceed to yammer on about it there are a few things to note;  I don't feel that it's a "complete" idea at all, or particularly even a good one necessarily.  Beyond that point I don't have any form of numbers as to how it would be balanced in that reguard.  Lastly, it is based on a hypothetically new mechanic that, as far as I know, may or may not even be possible to have coded in Warframe at all.e we all know how bad Rhino smells.

Interesting idea. At the very least there is something worth considering and learning from the proposal.

Also, despite me never seeing Warframes actual development tools, I would wager ability staging is totally possible within Warframe though it will likely require additional coding to create.

 

My history is on the design side of things not the coding but over the years of being told "thats too hard" and "yeah I can do that" one tends to develop a basic sense of when one is asking for something reasonable and when one is asking for something far out. :-)

 

 

So it's like Rhino, but with layers... like an ogre onion.  Because we all know how bad Rhino smells.

And extra points for finding a joke that appropriate to the post. Made me giggle a bit.

I'm so jealous of people who can do funny on the interwebs. It's not a skill I personally possess. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by Ronyn

[Holeypaladin]

 

 

Did it in T4 you say? in the shadows? 40 minutes? Just to prove the point I'll brb.

 

Yes, 40 mins, T4, in the shadows, no problem.

 

Just because you suck at it doesn't mean that I do.  Do you even Redirection?

 

Find me more than 2 shades per tileset that give you that 95% DR, because most shades that you luckily find provide 50-70% DR. Go, find them if you're that smart. Oh, and weapon bonus is just for you, not the whole team.

Found a lot of them.  Most high-end content is in the Void, and found plenty of it there.  Void Defense doesn't have as much but all the other maps have plenty to suit my purposes.

 

Why is everyone so insistent on iron skin having severe drawbacks simply in order to accomplish it's goal?  How many abilities IN THE GAME have drawbacks?  Four or five out of what, 100 or so?

 

It's pretty ridiculous to demand major nerfs and "drawbacks" to a power to make its use situational and therefore unusable most of the time.  A tank's tank power shouldn't have drawbacks since he's a freaking tank and he's supposed to be tanky.  Just like M-prime doesn't have any drawbacks because Nova is just awesome like that.  Or like radial disarm and invisibility don't have any drawbacks to speak of.

 

Drawbacks are just a way of hating on Rhino and refusing to allow him some sort of top-tier tank power.  If you don't like Rhino, don't play him.  Most people don't anymore, especially not at high level.  But don't nerf him to the point where he is unplayable by those who DO want to play him in his intended tank role.

 

If Rhino dropped from Pluto instead of Venus, I wonder if he would still be as hated as he is now.

[SIDESTRE4M]

You somehow lost me. Please post a video of your facetanking style. You don't have to, though. However Several people here including me don't buy your stories anymore.

[Holeypaladin]

I don't actually have video recording software.  But for Mirage it's basically just running around in the shadows with mirror image and eclipse up, blowing things up with a quanta and not taking any damage from enemy attacks.  Pausing to revive fallen teammates so long as they're in the shadow... not taking damage from enemy attacks while reviving... hoping they die in the shade rather than out in the light.  And of course staying out of nullifier fields.

 

Past the 30 min mark the bombards can deplete your shields in one hit even with the 95% DR, but my sentinel instantly restores it to max and just keep going.  Power strength is so high that even in the "partial shade" it's still 95% because blind rage plus intensify.  Energy cost of keeping it up is insignificant because both powers only cost base 25 energy and last around almost a minute.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[SIDESTRE4M]

Yeah, I see where this is going. I've got a Quanta and multiforma Mirage too. However this doesn't sound like simple facetanking at all.

 

Edit: If you have a nvidea graphics card, you have the software.

Edited January 24, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[geninrising]

 

 

Yes, 40 mins, T4, in the shadows, no problem.

 

Just because you suck at it doesn't mean that I do.  Do you even Redirection?

 

 

Did you even read the detailed description of the build? Both of them? Did you also read the fact that it was solo in order to ensure I was not helped to be able to perform said action with disables from others? Did you also read the last bit. You know, the part where I performed said action with Rhino? A frame that you yourself claim is not near as good as Mirage at taking hits?

 

Sounds like you are just a pathetic excuse for a Rhino player and is butthurt that he doesn't know how to do it and so exaggerates his performance with another frame to cover the inept way he plays Rhino.

 

Suck it up cupcake. I have come to the solid conclusion that nothing you ever say will ever be believable again without testing that bears out what you say. Independent  testing mind you, because again your word cannot be accepted. SMH

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah, I see where this is going. I've got a Quanta and multiforma Mirage too. However this doesn't sound like simple facetanking at all.

 

Edit: If you have a nvidea graphics card, you have the software.

What did you expect me to do, stand in one spot doing nothing and taking hits from all directions?  That's just stupid, bad gameplay.

 

What's important is to be able to stay standing in enemy fire long enough to raise your fallen allies.  Mirage can do it.  Rhino can't.  In those 5 or so seconds it takes to revive a fallen ally, Rhino is dead ten times over with just iron skin while Mirage can pull it off easily with Eclipse.

[Bobtm]

What did you expect me to do, stand in one spot doing nothing and taking hits from all directions?  That's just stupid, bad gameplay.

 

What's important is to be able to stay standing in enemy fire long enough to raise your fallen allies.  Mirage can do it.  Rhino can't.  In those 5 or so seconds it takes to revive a fallen ally, Rhino is dead ten times over with just iron skin while Mirage can pull it off easily with Eclipse.

 

Lemme know how that works out for you when an ally dies in an area that isn't in shadows.

 

See, to hammer this home we're asking for some type of limiter for this stuff for a very valid and apparent reason here.  Beyond even that, Mirage is still very much vulnerable to any incoming proc under that specific scenario, shadowed or not.  She's far from the godmode tank you try to play her off as.

 

To apply the same notion to Mesa on the other hand, soon as one enemy decides to run up and melee you, say goodbye to your Shields and Health.  They toss a grenade your way?  Good luck.  Even beyonder still she too will also get hit with procs at this point, providing further potential cracks in her "armor".

 

The thing is just this, Rhino can suck up a pretty hefty amount of damage through IS alone, while also being entirely immune to all procs at the same time.  You act as though Rhino can't revive well, yet he can easily rock out a Stomp and do so in quite a few instances.  If you're in a room where there's enough incoming fire over a wide enough area that both Stomp and IS cannot allow you to revive someone, then you're at a point where practically no frame is going to be able to reliably revive someone.

 

All of your points that you try and argue for end up coming up "apples to oranges" you're not looking at things objectively.  Instead, at every possible chance, you're outright pushing all of the variables so that they always and only apply to your agenda, and that's just not how this stuff works.

 

Also, you specify "standing still, taking hits from all directions" and... well honestly that's exactly what facetanking is in its entirety.  That's specifically what nearly nine tenths of this thread has explicitly been arguing against.  Nobody wants Rhino to be able to stand around and count ceiling tiles while eating a roomfull of incoming fire.

 

Out of every defensive type of skill which acts in a manner of a self-buff to one's own defensive traits, either through shielding or +X% Damage Resistance, only one of them, only one in the entire game provides positives without a single drawback to its usability.  That title of course going to Link.  However as we know, this ability is locked in at 75% and is on a frame which has effectively no CC options available to it, as well as being almost or just as slow as Rhino is already (can't remember if Trinity is .9 speed or not).

 

Rhino isn't some massively and outlandishly outclassed defensive frame in the realm of survivability, not by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.

 

The likelihood of you ever seeing a simple increase to IS without some potential downsides is effectively zero, you'll find near no backing from much of the community around here for such a thing.  Nor will you likely find positive responses for such a request from the developers.  It's not like we're opposed to this change for some asanine reason either, we're coming at this issue from a very sensible place.  As much as I would like to see Rhino's IS become a better skill in terms of overall usability, I'm finding this whole situation more and more off with each turn.

[Renegade343]

Lemme know how that works out for you when an ally dies in an area that isn't in shadows.

Hall of Mirrors say 'Hi' to drawing away most of enemy fire for a while.