Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Bobtm]

 And just as a aside, I used to main Rhino from a LONG time ago till around U12-13, since then it's been Excalibur, even when people kicked me from a group for playing him cause they wanted a "better" frame. Eventually I got in and topped everything (I think they weren't great players, but this is the mindset we need to get rid of). With this in mind, perhaps DE should balance the frames and weapons with each other. Obviously some frames are better at some things, sure, but maybe some internal balance is good.

 

There's a fair degree of internal balancing amongst frames at the moment when you look at them overall however.  While I agree with genin on a lot of things I'm not one to follow his line of thought in saying that frames shouldn't be balanced against one another.  Looking at what others are truely capable of in varying ways is a good way of truely knowing whether or not a frame is overpowered, so it's something which I find integral to the realm of balance.

 

While weapons have some clear tiering stuff goign on (though they've still got issues) frames don't appear to have this at all.  I genuinely cannot think of a frame which is notably able to be considered "bad" out of all the frames in game currently.  Of course your mention of people knocking Excalibur is an issue, but randoms are just randoms.  When it comes down to it the broad "casual" playerbase of any given game will almost always spout incorrect garbage and nonsense.  There's not much a developer can do to counteract that aside going dictator-mode in all realms of chat and insta chat banning everyone who says nonsensical stuff in that manner.  Of course this would be a terrible idea, but its the only solution.

 

It falls in with that old saying;  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  In this situation the playerbase is our horse, and the water is actively unbiased and objective knowledge of game mechanics.

 

A perfect example of this is Banshee for instance.  Wildly ignored, hated by innumerable pugs, yet an undeniably powerful frame which can outpace some of the strongest frames in Warframe.  Basically, people just aren't that smart, and DE can't change that.

 

As always however, I'm not saying every frame is always perfect, balance over time is a good thing to see.  But I do believe DE handles balance amongst frames in an internal method, and that the ones we have now are balanced within a reasonable degree as to not warrant any factual claim of "uselessness" to be pegged to any of them.

[Beetamus]

"People aren't that smart" 10/10        Love it, agree totally. #Mottoforlife

 

I agree no frame is useless, some may certainly be outdone by others. Especially now with the addition of augments.

 

I guess what it all comes down to is us, the players. We have to come up with well reasoned arguments as to why to change things. It certainly shouldn't be done just cause everyone says so.

[geninrising]

There's a fair degree of internal balancing amongst frames at the moment when you look at them overall however.  While I agree with genin on a lot of things I'm not one to follow his line of thought in saying that frames shouldn't be balanced against one another.  Looking at what others are truely capable of in varying ways is a good way of truely knowing whether or not a frame is overpowered, so it's something which I find integral to the realm of balance.

 

While weapons have some clear tiering stuff goign on (though they've still got issues) frames don't appear to have this at all.  I genuinely cannot think of a frame which is notably able to be considered "bad" out of all the frames in game currently.  Of course your mention of people knocking Excalibur is an issue, but randoms are just randoms.  When it comes down to it the broad "casual" playerbase of any given game will almost always spout incorrect garbage and nonsense.  There's not much a developer can do to counteract that aside going dictator-mode in all realms of chat and insta chat banning everyone who says nonsensical stuff in that manner.  Of course this would be a terrible idea, but its the only solution.

 

It falls in with that old saying;  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  In this situation the playerbase is our horse, and the water is actively unbiased and objective knowledge of game mechanics.

 

A perfect example of this is Banshee for instance.  Wildly ignored, hated by innumerable pugs, yet an undeniably powerful frame which can outpace some of the strongest frames in Warframe.  Basically, people just aren't that smart, and DE can't change that.

 

As always however, I'm not saying every frame is always perfect, balance over time is a good thing to see.  But I do believe DE handles balance amongst frames in an internal method, and that the ones we have now are balanced within a reasonable degree as to not warrant any factual claim of "uselessness" to be pegged to any of them.

The point that I'm trying to make and the point DE has stated is that they want frames to all do their own thing and are not balanced according to each other. Otherwise frames will lose their uniqueness and potentially lose the opportunity for unique mechanics. No two frames do the same thing in precisely the same manner UNTIL you distill the game down to p42w tactics in which case the point is killing enemies in an AOE radius.

 

Honestly I still contest the fact that ultimates work on the same supply of energy that other abilities utilize. I think this allows players an unrivaled ability to trivialize gameplay and should be looked at long and hard.

 

What we have here is a misleading idea among players that certain frames are better or worse at doing the same thing. The reality is that no two frames do the same thing in the same way if the entirety of their kit is utilized. Thus there is no way to truly balance the frames among each other. 

 

IF DE did internal balancing among the frames there would not be such a large discrepancy among the ultimate abilities at the very least. Excal, Saryn, Mag, Ember, Mesa, Ash, and Mirage would all have equal damage per second across the board or at bare minimum would have equal damage total for their ults. This is however clearly not the case.

 

DE balances frames versus enemies and that is all in order to maintain each frames overall usefulness and unique traits.

[Beetamus]

I don't think you're quite getting what we are saying. Frames can be balanced yet unique entirely based off their abilities. Yes there is not true balance, but for the enjoyment of the game we want it as close as we can.

 

Example Loki Vs Ash - Both are Invisibility frames with a Teleport, yet Loki has effectively 2 CC's (Decoy and Radial Disarm) and Ash has raw damage (Shuriken and Bladestorm). While the later you go the more Radial Disarm gets more effective, Bladestorm can still kill things for long enough as far as we care to balance the game. To me, they are unique enough to promote different playstyles, yet somewhat balanced to each other.

 

I'm sure other people can think of others but this thread is about Rhino's Ironskin, so I won't go on about frames not comparible to Rhino here.

 

Also agree about the ability to spam powers, particularly ultimates making the games less fun.

[Fait]

Loki's invisibility... immortality?

Post your video of surviving 30min pr above on solo in ODS with loki's invisibility and I'll believe that.

Hmm... I might make a video of this.

[Bobtm]

I... I'm almost thinking there's a sort of miscommunication to a slight degree here.  When I say internal balance/frames balanced in comparison to other frames I do not mean balanced on a "frame versus frame" basis.

 

 IF DE did internal balancing among the frames there would not be such a large discrepancy among the ultimate abilities at the very least. Excal, Saryn, Mag, Ember, Mesa, Ash, and Mirage would all have equal damage per second across the board or at bare minimum would have equal damage total for their ults. This is however clearly not the case.

 

DE balances frames versus enemies and that is all in order to maintain each frames overall usefulness and unique traits.

 

Thing is though, damage isn't the only statistical value of a given frame.  For instance, you note Saryn on that list.  She's a notably more sluggish frame (10% below average speed) while having a higher health value.  She lacks any form of mobility in her kit and doesn't particularly have any meritable CC in a direct way.  However she's got one of the stronger 4s straight off along with that 4 having a very stellar damage type.

 

It's not all about pure DPS here, it's about all of their traits, looking at each's pros and cons.  If this didn't happen then we would see frames which are clearly better than others.  This is sort of where your comparison falls apart, it's about the entirety of kits (pros and cons) in comparison across the board.

 

Basically, if any one frame has got innumerably more pros and fewer cons as compared to other frames... well then it's first in line for the nerf bat.  Same holds true for a frame on the inverse side.  This is how I see things when I say "balancing frames with regard to one another", it's not like they're directly fighting.  It's a comparison of active usability.

 

When I look across the frames in Warframe, I don't see any that stick out as being out of line at the moment.  Of course an honorable mention to Valkyr, who's invulnerability isn't something I'm particularly fond of.  However it's got a clear drawback tied in so it's not outright game breaking.

 

As far as ability spam is concerned, for the most part spamming in regards to practically every 1 and most 2s isn't that big of a deal in my mind.  However the rampant ease of access to 3s and 4s across all frames is where things get too wonky.

 

All that said... this is almost diverging a bit too much from the whole Rhino thing than usual.  So I'll just wrap this up now.  It appears as though we agree overall, it's more that we're not agreeing in a semantics area really seeing as we both want balanced frames.

[geninrising]

I don't think you're quite getting what we are saying. Frames can be balanced yet unique entirely based off their abilities. Yes there is not true balance, but for the enjoyment of the game we want it as close as we can.

 

Example Loki Vs Ash - Both are Invisibility frames with a Teleport, yet Loki has effectively 2 CC's (Decoy and Radial Disarm) and Ash has raw damage (Shuriken and Bladestorm). While the later you go the more Radial Disarm gets more effective, Bladestorm can still kill things for long enough as far as we care to balance the game. To me, they are unique enough to promote different playstyles, yet somewhat balanced to each other.

 

I'm sure other people can think of others but this thread is about Rhino's Ironskin, so I won't go on about frames not comparible to Rhino here.

 

Also agree about the ability to spam powers, particularly ultimates making the games less fun.

That's my point though. The damage mitigation methods they all have utilize unique mechanics and all perform their various jobs equally through the BALANCED FOR CONTENT idea. Literally nothing in this game is balanced on a frame by frame basis. It is all balanced against content itself and the rest is player skill. Thus if you only play the star system it all works well. However once you hit the void it becomes the players burden of coping.

 

Some will argue that the void then becomes the territory of elitists. Quite frankly it is the grounds on which your skill is weighed and measured. Quite frankly I feel it should continue to be that way.

 

In fact I sincerely cannot wait for the 8 man raids as DE has stated clearly that there will be no p#2w there and it will be 100% skill based and therefore a lot of players will not be able to complete it. Sooo much enthusiasm for this idea *drools*.

 

At least we will finally settle the debate on skill versus p42w solidly.

Edited January 25, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

I... I'm almost thinking there's a sort of miscommunication to a slight degree here.  When I say internal balance/frames balanced in comparison to other frames I do not mean balanced on a "frame versus frame" basis.

 

 

Thing is though, damage isn't the only statistical value of a given frame.  For instance, you note Saryn on that list.  She's a notably more sluggish frame (10% below average speed) while having a higher health value.  She lacks any form of mobility in her kit and doesn't particularly have any meritable CC in a direct way.  However she's got one of the stronger 4s straight off along with that 4 having a very stellar damage type.

 

It's not all about pure DPS here, it's about all of their traits, looking at each's pros and cons.  If this didn't happen then we would see frames which are clearly better than others.  This is sort of where your comparison falls apart, it's about the entirety of kits (pros and cons) in comparison across the board.

 

Basically, if any one frame has got innumerably more pros and fewer cons as compared to other frames... well then it's first in line for the nerf bat.  Same holds true for a frame on the inverse side.  This is how I see things when I say "balancing frames with regard to one another", it's not like they're directly fighting.  It's a comparison of active usability.

 

When I look across the frames in Warframe, I don't see any that stick out as being out of line at the moment.  Of course an honorable mention to Valkyr, who's invulnerability isn't something I'm particularly fond of.  However it's got a clear drawback tied in so it's not outright game breaking.

 

As far as ability spam is concerned, for the most part spamming in regards to practically every 1 and most 2s isn't that big of a deal in my mind.  However the rampant ease of access to 3s and 4s across all frames is where things get too wonky.

 

All that said... this is almost diverging a bit too much from the whole Rhino thing than usual.  So I'll just wrap this up now.  It appears as though we agree overall, it's more that we're not agreeing in a semantics area really seeing as we both want balanced frames.

Yes I can clearly see what you mean by all frames having a balanced set of pros and cons to their design. Up until now the frame with the most cons has been Ember. She is coming along nicely and needs the barest bit more tweaking to bring her in line.

 

I get where you are coming from and see exactly what the pro's and cons of each amount to but when someone tries to make claims that a damage frame out does a defensive frame they need to be able to delineate why and thus far despite all the "proof" Holey has provided he has not helped his case.

 

Experience is a telling thing and throughout the time I have been here nothing has out tanked our tank.

[Bobtm]

Yes I can clearly see what you mean by all frames having a balanced set of pros and cons to their design. Up until now the frame with the most cons has been Ember. She is coming along nicely and needs the barest bit more tweaking to bring her in line.

 

I get where you are coming from and see exactly what the pro's and cons of each amount to but when someone tries to make claims that a damage frame out does a defensive frame they need to be able to delineate why and thus far despite all the "proof" Holey has provided he has not helped his case.

 

Experience is a telling thing and throughout the time I have been here nothing has out tanked our tank.

 

Ah yeah, we also agree on that front.  Holey's posts are definitely out of line here in this situation.  Honestly it's beginning to feel like a lost cause to me on that exact front.

 

Of course that's not to say I'm entirely dropping any of the ideas or concepts that have been thrown around here in regaurds to a change to Rhino which makes him a more interesting frame to play.  But these notions of Rhino being blatantly overpowered when he's not are a huge hinderance towards a proper discussion on the matter.  It's hard to make progress when someone's spouting clearly broken ideas every step of the way, it leads to the continuing derailment of the discussion basically.

 

I completely agree with your experiences as well on the matter, what you're saying is notably more valid than Holey's claims as far as the level of tankiness which frames possess as far as I'm concerned.  Same goes for Ronyn, which is exactly why I'm inclined to agree with the mathematical stat variables either of you suggest as I figure you both know your stuff.

[geninrising]

Ah yeah, we also agree on that front.  Holey's posts are definitely out of line here in this situation.  Honestly it's beginning to feel like a lost cause to me on that exact front.

 

Of course that's not to say I'm entirely dropping any of the ideas or concepts that have been thrown around here in regaurds to a change to Rhino which makes him a more interesting frame to play.  But these notions of Rhino being blatantly overpowered when he's not are a huge hinderance towards a proper discussion on the matter.  It's hard to make progress when someone's spouting clearly broken ideas every step of the way, it leads to the continuing derailment of the discussion basically.

 

I completely agree with your experiences as well on the matter, what you're saying is notably more valid than Holey's claims as far as the level of tankiness which frames possess as far as I'm concerned.  Same goes for Ronyn, which is exactly why I'm inclined to agree with the mathematical stat variables either of you suggest as I figure you both know your stuff.

Hence why I already asked Ronyn if we should just start a fresh one abandoning this post. The problem is that I feel as though holey will move on over too and simply derail the progress that we make or that we will get pigeon holed into a mega thread with him, which would sincerely be a mistake.

[Holeypaladin]

When it comes down to it, there's no convincing the stone deaf.  People become entrenched in the concept that they are right and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong.

 

I know I'm not alone in saying that iron skin doesn't scale well into high level content.  I see it all over the forums and in the game... people commenting how other frames are more durable than Rhino, specifically mentioning the same frames I keep mentioning.  Most of them have been chased out of this topic by now by the other side of the coin, which consists mostly of people who associate Rhino with noobish gameplay and unskilled players who stand still in the middle of enemy fire because it's possible to do so in the early levels of the game.

 

Most of my suggestions, if you'll note, have involved re-scaling iron skin to be weaker early on but stronger at high levels where it is necessary.  Iron skin is in desperate need of a rework, to make it scale better with all level of content.  And Rhino should probably be moved to Pluto, switching places with Excalibur who should probably drop on Venus.

 

But it seems no matter how much mathematical proof I post of how poorly iron skin scales, and no matter how many people agree with me, some people will never ever be convinced.  Some people will claim that in their experience Rhino is still the best tank... but any scientist will tell you that experience and testimonials are THE WORST form of "proof" for anything, as experience varies widely from person to person.

 

I feel bad for DE because it seems people will scream at them for changing iron skin, but continue to scream at them for leaving it broken like it currently is.  No matter what they do, they're gonna get complaints over this broken skill.

[RealPandemonium]

All frames have bearing on all discussions regarding all other frames.

 

Because the simple question is simple.  "Which frame am I gonna use in this mission?"

 

And the simple answer is simple.  "Whichever frame is best for this mission."

 

Rhino isn't best for any mission.  Therefore, he's never the one chosen.  It's all based on comparison between frames, whichever one is best is the one chosen.

 

And when I started playing Mirage seriously, and saw how much tankier she is than Rhino when used properly.. I realized that there's no point in ever playing Rhino again until he is fixed to be a better tank than this "glass cannon" who can survive bombards to the face.

 

There are a lot of easy mode buttons in the game.  They aren't going away any time soon.

Which frame will I use for this mission?  Whichever one I feel like playing.  This game isn't so hard that you need to min-max.  Pretty much everything is viable with enough mods crammed in it.  It's about flavor, not theoretical maximums.  Infinite content is not relevant to a balance discussion and can be considered a minigame at best.  IS is not for infinite content (90% of options aren't,) and that's fine.  

 

It's also amusing that you use this line of logic, considering that earlier in the thread your reason for asking for buffs was "I want to be able to face-tank because that's how I like to play."  Seems like you actually just want to trivialize infinite content, which is pretty much the most toxic thing you could ask DE for.  Relentless lobbying fron infinite content shills that don't even really play "Warframe" in general are the reason we've been power creeping in the first place.  

[SIDESTRE4M]

I just wanted to leave this here:

 

 

I did the tactical alert with Rhino Prime and just with my friend, who also had a Rhino. I think we could as well have used Frost, but Rhino was faster.

 

How did we do it? Cast Iron Skin when we could and if we had to take down nullifiers, we had better armor/shields/HP and thus more survivability as Mesa/Mirage/etc. Valkyr has better Armor, but less shields to feed the rover.

Iron Skin even saved us from the magnetic procs.

 

It suddenly was ridiculously easy where we failed with many other frames.

 

And while in forums there are ridiculous recommendations for four man groups and cheesy tactics involving a lot of skill and various specialized frames, we just did it with two Rhinos, and neither had any forma.

 

Like I said before: I'm not against a slight buff of Iron Skin. Give him maybe 1.25-1.5x the EHP he has now or something like that, but not that stuff, that Holeypaladin is trying to sell.

Edited January 25, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[geninrising]

I just wanted to leave this here:

 

 

I did the tactical alert with Rhino Prime and just with my friend, who also had a Rhino. I think we could as well have used Frost, but Rhino was faster.

 

How did we do it? Cast Iron Skin when we could and if we had to take down nullifiers, we had better armor/shields/HP and thus more survivability as Mesa/Mirage/etc. Valkyr has better Armor, but less shields to feed the rover.

Iron Skin even saved us from the magnetic procs.

 

It suddenly was ridiculously easy where we failed with many other frames.

 

And while in forums there are ridiculous recommendations for four man groups and cheesy tactics involving a lot of skill and various specialized frames, we just did it with two Rhinos, and neither had any forma.

 

Like I said before: I'm not against a slight buff of Iron Skin. Give him maybe 1.25-1.5x the EHP he has now or something like that, but not that stuff, that Holeypaladin is trying to sell.

 

Which frame will I use for this mission?  Whichever one I feel like playing.  This game isn't so hard that you need to min-max.  Pretty much everything is viable with enough mods crammed in it.  It's about flavor, not theoretical maximums.  Infinite content is not relevant to a balance discussion and can be considered a minigame at best.  IS is not for infinite content (90% of options aren't,) and that's fine.  

 

It's also amusing that you use this line of logic, considering that earlier in the thread your reason for asking for buffs was "I want to be able to face-tank because that's how I like to play."  Seems like you actually just want to trivialize infinite content, which is pretty much the most toxic thing you could ask DE for.  Relentless lobbying fron infinite content shills that don't even really play "Warframe" in general are the reason we've been power creeping in the first place.  

Guys we already concluded that he does not make sense, and while we enjoy the community support on the matter it's really a non issue. We already came to the realization a bit ago and will soon produce a thread for actionable changes to leave Rhino is a bit of a better place without going overboard. Hope to see you there. 

[HibikiGanaha]

I would rather keep his indefinite time limit on his iron skin so I can run around the star map without getting hurt and without the need for duration mods.

 

No support.

[geninrising]

I would rather keep his indefinite time limit on his iron skin so I can run around the star map without getting hurt and without the need for duration mods.

 

No support.

See this is sort of the problem. Rhino is already at a really good place for BALANCED content. Only when one goes outside of the area that DE balances for does he show a bit of fall off. However through skillful application of his entire kit Rhino still shines.

 

The problem lot's of people have is when it comes to that necessary skill component. These people are fine as long as IS is a get out of jail free card they can keep on 100% of the time. However, once the gloves come off versus enemies that IS lasts a bare few seconds against they become nearly a waste of a squad slot. That's the mentality that needs to change. I can handle IS gaining some skill component that requires you utilize it in order to be able to use it late game. However I am definitely not comfortable with another easy mode button being implemented just for the sake of promoting bad player participation in high tier content. 

 

I honestly can't wait for raids, if they are prohibitively difficult to take part in as DE stated they will be. It will be nice to play with nothing but skilled players after a few days of people rage quitting them.

[geninrising]

When it comes down to it, there's no convincing the stone deaf.  People become entrenched in the concept that they are right and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong.

 

I know I'm not alone in saying that iron skin doesn't scale well into high level content.  I see it all over the forums and in the game... people commenting how other frames are more durable than Rhino, specifically mentioning the same frames I keep mentioning.  Most of them have been chased out of this topic by now by the other side of the coin, which consists mostly of people who associate Rhino with noobish gameplay and unskilled players who stand still in the middle of enemy fire because it's possible to do so in the early levels of the game.

 

Most of my suggestions, if you'll note, have involved re-scaling iron skin to be weaker early on but stronger at high levels where it is necessary.  Iron skin is in desperate need of a rework, to make it scale better with all level of content.  And Rhino should probably be moved to Pluto, switching places with Excalibur who should probably drop on Venus.

 

But it seems no matter how much mathematical proof I post of how poorly iron skin scales, and no matter how many people agree with me, some people will never ever be convinced.  Some people will claim that in their experience Rhino is still the best tank... but any scientist will tell you that experience and testimonials are THE WORST form of "proof" for anything, as experience varies widely from person to person.

 

I feel bad for DE because it seems people will scream at them for changing iron skin, but continue to scream at them for leaving it broken like it currently is.  No matter what they do, they're gonna get complaints over this broken skill.

The clear difference is that currently it can be used in all balanced content just fine. There is not really a reason for them to promote unskilled players being able to progress as far as those with a much higher skill factor.

 

I can't wait to see you in forums upset because your IS doesn't work versus raid enemies.

 

On a side note folks, did you know that Holey has moved to another discussion of Rhino trying to peddle his 100%+hp100%Shields+300 armor IS idea? The one that we discussed stating that at those levels it would probably be too strong. SMH

[Ronyn]

Some thoughts

 

New "Progressive"  Iron Skin

There are things about this idea I that I found very attractive. However...

The problem I found in this idea is that it seems to breed the need to spam the iron skin button.

Where you'd sort of have to press it over and over when its needed most. meaning several other actions are not being performed.

And I feel that is particularly damaging to an ideal combat model.

 

 

What if we made Roar into an AOE aggro draw within 20m that provides X amount DR that applies to IS, as well as Rhino's shields, and his health?

There are things about this idea I that I found very attractive. However...

Roar, in it's current use, may be very popular with a lot of people (no idea with metrics) so I am hesitant to suggest such a change for it.

I'd considered roar giving both the damage bonus and the defense bonus but that is both overpowered AND counter intuitive..

that is to say the offensive aspect of roar has great use in stealth missions (potentially anyway, very limited stealth in game at this time) and you don't want to grab aggro and mess that up.

Also, the idea of roar as an aggro grab is great for grabbing large groups at the same time but not great for pin point selection of enemy attention.

 

Still...the idea of being able to grab the aggro of a big group in one press is solid.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

So here is what I came to. Instead of thinking of Iron skin as "the tank ability" what if we looked at it sort of as...

The "Access Tank mode" 

And so, when iron skin is active shooting, slashing, or using powers on enemies grabs aggro...INCLUDING roar.

And we use the DR stacking concept of gain per enemy aggro'd.... as a total thing that comes to a cap.

I'm going to create a more accurately worded description of what I mean once I have a few more free minutes.

Just wanted to give you guys a heads up on my thoughts regarding those things. Technical writing is sort of its own thing.

 

The problem lot's of people have is when it comes to that necessary skill component. These people are fine as long as IS is a get out of jail free card they can keep on 100% of the time. However, once the gloves come off versus enemies that IS lasts a bare few seconds against they become nearly a waste of a squad slot. That's the mentality that needs to change. I can handle IS gaining some skill component that requires you utilize it in order to be able to use it late game. However I am definitely not comfortable with another easy mode button being implemented just for the sake of promoting bad player participation in high tier content. 

I think this shows the essence of the problem.

Iron Skin as a get-out-jail-free-card so you can just stand around is bad for the game.

BUT then Iron skin as a selfish survival tool for a couple hits so you're not a tank just tough is very against a tank role.

 

IMO the only good answer is a version with a skill component that allows it to go from weak to strong based on its effective use.

[Ronyn]

See this is sort of the problem. Rhino is already at a really good place for BALANCED content. Only when one goes outside of the area that DE balances for does he show a bit of fall off. However through skillful application of his entire kit Rhino still shines.

This is the crux of many issues plaguing warframe right now.

As I said, DE says one thing then their actions say another thing.

I feel several things are not balanced well for a level 40 endgame, often they are too strong.

But when those things start to feel normal, about level 60, many other things feel too weak.

DE really needs to get on this...find a more consistent median.A more clear correlation between what they say and what they do.

As things are right now....It's breeding confusion like crazy.

[trieuazn0]

[geninrising]

I am sooo going to miss that show :(

[geninrising]

This is the crux of many issues plaguing warframe right now.

As I said, DE says one thing then their actions say another thing.

I feel several things are not balanced well for a level 40 endgame, often they are too strong.

But when those things start to feel normal, about level 60, many other things feel too weak.

DE really needs to get on this...find a more consistent median.A more clear correlation between what they say and what they do.

As things are right now....It's breeding confusion like crazy.

This is true. I think there needs to be some type of implemented skill factor to all abilities that allow them to scale well past the solar system through artful use. Currently things like Disarm, M Prime and many more abilities still perform their function precisely the same regardless of enmy levels while several ultimates, while utterly OP for the entire star chart, t1, t2, and t3(all outside of endless)at the t4 mark become near worthless except for their CC components where applicable.

 

True balance is I think going to be an endlessly tiring ordeal though because as more mods, frames, and even enemies are added things will surely continue a power creep and imbalance will pervade. Currently I do see a problem with DE that severely impacts this. It seems they are unable to continue to produce frames that are strong without breaking the balance point. Additionally it seems as though whenever they touch any frame except Excalibur they weaken the frame to the point that people are angry about it.

 

What I think DE needs to do is provide players a buff to any given frame they change that is commensurate with the amount of power they take away. Quite frankly with the change to Rhino it felt like they utterly Robbed him, not because of the loss of broken IS but due to the fact that they changed two of his other abilities that were felt to be utterly core and arguably his best skills.

 

IDK at this point I would not mind seeing Charge removed to make way for the return of blast. With that implemented make IS his 1 as it is Rhino's signature move and the skill that would cement his idea of being a tank. Provide IS with 4 seconds absorption and 50%health/shield scaling. Then with the Charge pulled make his 2 Blast. half the damage boost from roar and make it an AOE aggro+DR that combines with his weapons to allow pinpoint aggro acquisition, that way players can spec for aoe aggro or weapon aggro as they choose capped at 20m aoe or weapon range if using pinpoint aggro. Lastly stomp appears to be in good health atm and I am unsure if to change or not.

 

The above changes would provide a fully functional tank build that scales well no matter what the content, thus guaranteeing Rhino's place no matter how power creep advances, additionally set that way the balance of enemies would basically set Rhino's effective IS level therefore it would not be outlandishly op nor would it ever be useless.

[Holeypaladin]

This is the crux of many issues plaguing warframe right now.

As I said, DE says one thing then their actions say another thing.

I feel several things are not balanced well for a level 40 endgame, often they are too strong.

But when those things start to feel normal, about level 60, many other things feel too weak.

DE really needs to get on this...find a more consistent median.A more clear correlation between what they say and what they do.

As things are right now....It's breeding confusion like crazy.

It is rather confusing, isn't it?

 

It makes sense to me that they should balance all content for the stuff that people actually play.  There's a large focus on higher level content these days, because of those prime parts that only drop on rotation C of T4 missions.

 

If they're going to have the content that everyone strives for only drop every 20 mins in endless missions, they need to balance the game for 20 minute intervals of endless missions, since that's what people will play in order to acquire those parts.

 

Some skills are balaned for long endless missions (Radial disarm, m-prime, even rhino stomp), but iron skin is definitely not one of them.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

If they're going to have the content that everyone strives for only drop every 20 mins in endless missions, they need to balance the game for 20 minute intervals of endless missions, since that's what people will play in order to acquire those parts.

I will test this later this evening with various frames and see what exactly falls off to try and verify exactly what is outside this area of balance(barring various broken items that we know are useless(Mags crush, Silence,Slash Dash) as those things are clearly in dire need of work to become usable even in the normal star chart.

 

So at this point you feel that all rewards should be accessible through power application?

 

When raids that are exceedingly difficult appear and you subsequently have rewards there that are very worthwhile will you then change your estimation of a balance point?

Edited January 25, 2015 by geninrising

[Holeypaladin]

 

When raids that are exceedingly difficult appear and you subsequently have rewards there that are very worthwhile will you then change your estimation of a balance point?

Ideally, all powers would scale equally to all levels of content.  In practice, however, that's not how it currently works.

 

But yes... as new content is added, so changes the balance point.