Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Bobtm]

Ideally, all powers would scale equally to all levels of content.  In practice, however, that's not how it currently works.

 

But yes... as new content is added, so changes the balance point.

 

That's a tricky thing though, it's sort of impossible to have every power scale equally.  Reason being is this;

 

Powers which directly have a raw effect on player EHP become grossly overpowered if they scale perfectly forever.  Since these powers make the player take ludicrously low levels of damage in "balanced" content running with mods to boost them, the player is highly unlikely to ever be killed unless they're outright AFK.

 

For powers which dish out straight damage, a different issue arises.  If these powers don't almost outright kill foes in a single use in "balanced" content after modding to their strengths they are generally seen as incredibly weak.  For the sake of simplicity let's say these powers were brought into a line of "deals roughly half of foe HP" when modded to near their maximum power.  This literally would mean you can always kill every foe, no matter how high of level, in two casts.

 

As much as it sucks, directly offensive and directly defensive abilities cannot be allowed infinite scaling right now without outright breaking the entirety of the game.  This is of course primarily because of the ease of access to powers.  CC based powers on the other hand don't break things to the same degree as you'll still be murdered by a glancing blow eventually by higher level foes.  Beyond that without the ability to kill increasingly leveled targets, CC eventually becomes nothing more than a stalling tool, delaying a player's inevitable failure.

 

In a perfect world, powers wouldn't be able to be readily spammed to high noon, and then directly offensive and defensive powers could be allowed to scale forever.  But the likelihood of that seems increasingly low as time passes.

[Holeypaladin]

The other reason why powers don't scale well... is that weapons gain MUCH more benefit from mods than powers do.

 

I think that's pretty much a given.  The best way to kill high level enemies is by shooting them in the face.  You can gain nearly 200% damage increase by maximizing power strength... but several thousand percent (maybe a million percent, haven't done this formula) increase from weapon mods.

 

That's the reason why percentage based damage reduction powers are superior by nature to a flat HP screen like iron skin... simple scaling issues.

[Bobtm]

Yeah, this is somewhere we agree Holey (sounds odd to say that :p) but it's too difficult to go with straight percentages too.  They also suffer from the exact same scaling issues if you take a step back and look at it.  Giving something 95% unconditional DR is practically the same as multiplying their EHP by twenty... and that's a literal crapton of EHP.

 

This is sort of why conditional DR% are more likely to exist here, as noted they create a weakness where otherwise one wouldn't be there.  However finding an appropriate weakness which fits can be a tough issue.  Taking a mere 1/20th of damage is pretty insane if there aren't holes which allow for potential failure of that resistance.

[Holeypaladin]

I agree that 95% is crazy high damage resistance.  Totally.

 

It's currently crazy high damage resistance for Mirage and Mesa.  If you'll notice my first post, it actually suggests removing the power scaling that allows them to hit 95%.  80% resistance to bullets isn't so bad, nor is 75% resistance in the shade.  Trinity gives 75% resistance everywhere (87.5% with blessing up though..)

 

If all DR in the game was capped at 75%, including iron skin... I'd actually be perfectly fine with that.  It might require blessing to only affect teammates and not trinity herself, but that's fine.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Bobtm]

aaand here's where we start disagreeing once more.  Ah the good ol' days.

 

Now mind you I'm not saying that Mirage and Mesa are perfect as is, but their DR isn't non-conditional.  I still do feel like 95% is high, but arbitrarily making it so nobody goes higher than Rhino is where everything falls apart.  His IS is not only non-conditional, but it also provides CC immunity and is a standard cost 2.

 

Basically it's fine, in my opinion, for DR's or defenses that aren't catch-all to be higher than DR's or defenses that are catch-all.  Rhino's defensive trait has literally no drawbacks or weaknesses.  So keeping it at or stronger than other DR's or defenses which do possess weaknesses... well that's just plain broken and bad design as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, is calling for yet another Trinity nerf really necessary?  She's been through the wringer enough as of late.  Let someone else grab that spotlight for a while.

[Mesyra]

buff rhinos armour out the &#!

 

like 500-1000 armour at base, 

 

200 base HP/SHields 500 at rank 30

 

make ironskin a damage redux with a very long duration 20-30 seconds at base, 95-99% damage redux

 

Iron skin should make everything hate rhino within 20m and they will make it a point to target him over any other warframe.

 

make ironskin protect against all procs/staggers/slows/CC/AOE attacks (splash from bombards will do no damage to rhino)

 

make extremely high damage attacks cause rhino to slide backwards if he isn't walking forward during the attack (like in the trailer)

 

this would make rhino the real tank in warframe. 

[Holeypaladin]

I still think no damage-focused frame should be more resilient than Rhino... conditionally or otherwise.  I'm fine with other tank frames being conditionally more resilient, such as Frost while inside his snow globe, but it doesn't make sense for non-tanks to be more resilient.

 

As far as Trinity is concerned... essentially, it wouldn't be a nerf to just Trinity, but also to Mirage, Mesa, and Valkyr.  However... since Blessing DOES affect the whole team (including Rhino), it might make more sense to hard-cap DR from any single power to 75% and any combination of powers to 85%.  That would only be a 2.5% reduction to Trinity's DR with Blessing active.

[geninrising]

buff rhinos armour out the !

 

like 500-1000 armour at base, 

 

200 base HP/SHields 500 at rank 30

 

make ironskin a damage redux with a very long duration 20-30 seconds at base, 95-99% damage redux

 

Iron skin should make everything hate rhino within 20m and they will make it a point to target him over any other warframe.

 

make ironskin protect against all procs/staggers/slows/CC/AOE attacks (splash from bombards will do no damage to rhino)

 

make extremely high damage attacks cause rhino to slide backwards if he isn't walking forward during the attack (like in the trailer)

 

this would make rhino the real tank in warframe. 

Please...by all means....stay away from any discussions on balance SMH

[geninrising]

Ok will update this post as I complete testing all Frames(gonna be a while I have them all) to wave 20 in T4 defense and 20m in surv will post results for each frame below.

 

Rhino

Def- Perfectly fine to 40 with no problems surviving. Never downed once, however after 25 IS was one shot by Bombards 2 shot by nullifiers. Revived teammates 15 times total(new Ash). 614 kills, top damage at 38%

 

(6 forma Kohm used exclusively) Team: Rhino Prime(me), Frost, Ash, Nyx(Mindfreak build), Loki(Stealth).

Build: All Maxed- Redirection, Vitality, Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Stretch, Streamline (2 forma)

Conclusion- Rhino is balanced through wave 24, falloff begins sharply at 25. At which point facetanking is not allowed, IS is for incidental rounds you eat while moving and immunity to CC/proc. Potentially recommend removing Stretch in favor of Iron Shrapnel for added CC and the ability to reset IS at will.

 

Survival- soon

Build: Same as above

Edited January 26, 2015 by geninrising

[Taranis49]

aaand here's where we start disagreeing once more.  Ah the good ol' days.

 

Now mind you I'm not saying that Mirage and Mesa are perfect as is, but their DR isn't non-conditional.  I still do feel like 95% is high, but arbitrarily making it so nobody goes higher than Rhino is where everything falls apart.  His IS is not only non-conditional, but it also provides CC immunity and is a standard cost 2.

 

Basically it's fine, in my opinion, for DR's or defenses that aren't catch-all to be higher than DR's or defenses that are catch-all.  Rhino's defensive trait has literally no drawbacks or weaknesses.  So keeping it at or stronger than other DR's or defenses which do possess weaknesses... well that's just plain broken and bad design as far as I'm concerned.

 

Also, is calling for yet another Trinity nerf really necessary?  She's been through the wringer enough as of late.  Let someone else grab that spotlight for a while.

 

Well, as I pointed out way earlier in the thread, post-nerf IS did have a drawback when it was first envisioned - it drew enemy aggro. The design intent was pretty clear, this was a frame that wasn't just meant to take hits better than the others, but keep them from taking those hits.

 

The aggro draw aspect got chucked when we (correctly) pointed out that post-nerf IS was actually a liability since it didn't have the "oomph" to take any real damage as just an HP barrier at higher levels while simultaneously drawing a bullseye on your face for every gun in range.

 

I'd accept that drawback back if the payoff was good enough. Actually being able to take hits better than the next frame in the squad would be a start.

[sanj66]

Really and what about all the variables that you have ignored? and what about my clearly defined experience that I just posted yesterday with an entire mod set up to tank on Mirage failing where my Rhino build built for all around success did not? You have proved NOTHING except that the numbers of a various specific set of skills show that Mirage ,Trinity, and Mesa have damage reduction, whereas Rhino has damage IMMUNITY for a certain amount. The only thing you have done is further point out the strength of his kit for tanking.

this is not entirely true as both you an paladin are doing the same thing and accusing each other of it, damage immunity sounds great but the effectiveness of it and scaling are not presented, where as damage reduction is more efficient when dealing with how things scale in the game, rhino's kit is no where strong for tanking as a tank is made to withstand punishment but with the constant nerfs to his iron skin which atm has it as crappy ferrite armor depending on which faction you are facing that skill is almost useless. where as across the board damage reduction that scales and is not fixed relative to enemy damage is leagues better. i do not support paladin's take or ideas for improving IS but at the same time for you to keep saying its fine as is compared to others or saying it makes him a great tank is also untrue.

If you were better than me in any way you wouldn't be crying over your poor Rhino which is far better at being a tank than Mesa/Mirage/Trinity will ever be.

 

Hence why I clearly provided an example of my Rhino run vs my mirage runs. and if you insist on saying your better with Mirage than I am please feel free to look me up in game and we'll have a run and see who is picking who up. This should not be a &!$$ing contest but if you want to make it that way let's go.

wrong here trinity can out tank rhino easily and effectively.

[geninrising]

 

Well, as I pointed out way earlier in the thread, post-nerf IS did have a drawback when it was first envisioned - it drew enemy aggro. The design intent was pretty clear, this was a frame that wasn't just meant to take hits better than the others, but keep them from taking those hits.

 

The aggro draw aspect got chucked when we (correctly) pointed out that post-nerf IS was actually a liability since it didn't have the "oomph" to take any real damage as just an HP barrier at higher levels while simultaneously drawing a bullseye on your face for every gun in range.

 

I'd accept that drawback back if the payoff was good enough. Actually being able to take hits better than the next frame in the squad would be a start.

The problem we have been facing is that almost every iteration we have been able to create with an AOE aggro draw appears to be exploitable due to how AI works in this game. Now if they were to implement aggro for IS like Loki's decoy mechanics then maybe it could be worked in, thus keeping Rhino in the midst of combat.

 

The other problem is also coming up with an iteration of IS that cannot be spam abused in order to create an invincibility loop. I , and others here feel that IS should never be a total invincibility power so long as you have energy(see energy loophole exploitation issue) and currently we are at a standstill regarding potential figures for a workable IS that can still be utilized during late game.

 

While attempting to find a solution to many Rhino player's complaints about IS I have decided to commit to some balance testing for various frames to see if I can verify a point at which we can average the falloff of various damage and damage reduction abilities(the point at which they become barely useful) to see what if any changes are actually warranted.

 

Currently in my testing of Rhino it appears that wave 25 is his falloff point in t4 defense missions using a balanced Rhino build to maintain mobility, a usable IS, a decent duration and damage buff through Roar and a good stomp(some extra range). Next I will test his falloff point in Survival, then commit to other frames testing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

this is not entirely true as both you an paladin are doing the same thing and accusing each other of it, damage immunity sounds great but the effectiveness of it and scaling are not presented, where as damage reduction is more efficient when dealing with how things scale in the game, rhino's kit is no where strong for tanking as a tank is made to withstand punishment but with the constant nerfs to his iron skin which atm has it as crappy ferrite armor depending on which faction you are facing that skill is almost useless. where as across the board damage reduction that scales and is not fixed relative to enemy damage is leagues better. i do not support paladin's take or ideas for improving IS but at the same time for you to keep saying its fine as is compared to others or saying it makes him a great tank is also untrue.

wrong here trinity can out tank rhino easily and effectively.

The issue you are taking into account is solely their DR ability which is an incorrect assessment of their tanking abilities. Damage mitigation occurs through various means. Rhino has the ability to directly prevent ANY damage to himself for a set amount of EHP whereas all of the other frames will take said damage to shields and then HP. Rhino also has multiple abilities capable of further mitigating damage by knocking his opponents down or suspending them in the air. Both of said skills are damage mitigation via prevention of attacks.

 

Trust me Holeypaladin and I are in no way committing any action in the same manner.

 

IF trinity did not have a healing/DR ability in Blessing she would never even be mentioned here please feel free to argue but with Trinity only using Link Rhino far out shines her due to his complete invulnerability so long as IS lasts. Even when it comes to the Blessing versus Stomp matter Stomp still trumps blessings DR due to the fact that Stomp negates the enemies ability to attack at all.

 

Let's be clear since you must not have read basically any of my posts. IS is not what makes Rhino a great tank. The synergy of his entire kit is what makes him a great tank. Tanking does not mean eating bullets. It means helping to prevent team mates from eating said bullets or saving their behinds from perilous circumstances all of which Rhino does quite well.

 

The problem is that people are trying to bring common MMO descriptions of a TANK into WF without paying attention at all to WF's spin on those conventions. Rhino is a tank in the sense this game provides. Mitigates damage through multiple avenues.

[Holeypaladin]

While the shield on top of regular shields is a better type of defense than simple damage reduction... iron skin does not add enough artificial HP to be effective.  The DR abilities you can use once and then not have to worry about them until they run low on duration since Link alone quadruples your EHP and some of the others multiply your EHP by 20.

 

Iron skin is an additive bonus to EHP rather than a multiplicative... so it provides far fewer EHP in its current form.  It can be recast, which is its primary advantage, but unless energy is unlimited (which it shouldn't be), you can run out of energy pretty quickly be recasting iron skin every 3 seconds.

 

And personally, I hate having to recast it every 3 seconds.  I'd like to be able to cast it once and then not have to worry about it for a good 30 seconds until it's time to refresh.

[RealPandemonium]

And personally, I hate having to recast it every 3 seconds.  I'd like to be able to cast it once and then not have to worry about it for a good 30 seconds until it's time to refresh.

An augment that somehow allows you to raise its HP through gameplay interactions sounds like a good move to me.

[Holeypaladin]

An augment that somehow allows you to raise its HP through gameplay interactions sounds like a good move to me.

There's already an augment for iron skin.  I doubt they'll make another anytime soon.

[GamePois0n]

I just started the game so if I said anything stupid please don't get mad :o

 

I have been watch on some of the old videos of Rhino BUT that is just too powerful (no op things in co-op games), stacks duration and energy efficiency and carry a few energy restore pods can easily last hours in survival games.

 

I do agree the new iron skin needs a buff, Rhino is way too slow and not tanky, I hated him (didn't meet my expectation after hours of rhino videos before i got him).

 

 

 

p.s. no nerf on any frame please, it's a co-op game ._.

[SIDESTRE4M]

While the shield on top of regular shields is a better type of defense than simple damage reduction... iron skin does not add enough artificial HP to be effective. The DR abilities you can use once and then not have to worry about them until they run low on duration since Link alone quadruples your EHP and some of the others multiply your EHP by 20.

Iron skin is an additive bonus to EHP rather than a multiplicative... so it provides far fewer EHP in its current form. It can be recast, which is its primary advantage, but unless energy is unlimited (which it shouldn't be), you can run out of energy pretty quickly be recasting iron skin every 3 seconds.

And personally, I hate having to recast it every 3 seconds. I'd like to be able to cast it once and then not have to worry about it for a good 30 seconds until it's time to refresh.

Don't forget, you are still vulnerable to procs that eat either your HP or worse, disrupts you.

Rhino himself does in fact get lesser damage than all other frames, except Valkyr if you don't count in alibilities. Rhino is less risky to play.

Heck, you can even run through those pestering grinneer doors without thought.

Edited January 26, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Holeypaladin]

The hit that brings iron skin down can also proc you.

 

In the case of bombards, it's essentially the same thing once they reach the point where their rockets deal more damage than iron skin protects (which is before the 40 minute mark).  Iron skin up, rocket comes, misses you, but the splash damage takes down iron skin and knocks you on your butt at the same time.

 

Scaling issues like that make it pretty weak as an ability.  I suppose most Rhino players these days just spam stomp at that point for AOE CC and don't bother using iron skin at all... but that's only possible because of the infinite energy loop problem.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Oh come on I just completed a TIV Exterminate with 8% damage... (EDIT: Taken obviously)

Edited January 26, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[geninrising]

Oh come on I just completed a TIV Exterminate with 8% damage...

I understand and will leave this here to illustrate my recent experience in by far sub optimal circumstances in a t4 Defense.

 

Rhino

Def T4- Perfectly fine to 40 with no problems surviving. Never downed once, however after 25 IS was one shot by Bombards 2 shot by nullifiers. Revived teammates 15 times total(new Ash). 614 kills, top damage at 38%

 

(6 forma Kohm used exclusively) Team: Rhino Prime(me), Frost, Ash, Nyx(Mindfreak build), Loki(Stealth).

Build: All Maxed- Redirection, Vitality, Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Stretch, Streamline (2 forma)

Conclusion- Rhino is balanced through wave 24, falloff begins sharply at 25. At which point facetanking is not allowed, IS is for incidental rounds you eat while moving and immunity to CC/proc. Potentially recommend removing Stretch in favor of Iron Shrapnel for added CC and the ability to reset IS at will.

 

Lets add a little more detail to the situation to make it crystal clear how this was accomplished.

 

Movement- I continually moved around the map assessing each spawn to verify presence of high priority threats such as Bombards and Nullifiers. I would assess and then get to within range for a charge, Charge in and while high threat targets were downed unload and clean up stragglers. Once enemies began to scale up more past 25 minutes I added in Stomp to the combo if Nullifiers or Bombards were present, but ti still worked like a charm otherwise.

 

This worked the ENTIRE time. I literally spent no time inside the globe unless picking up Ash or Frost was necessary. When picking up players outside the globe get close enough then charge in(reactivate IS if necessary) then stomp, pick up players then charge away from the location. To be quite honest it was the most fun and involved T4 I have ever experienced.

 

Every other frame is constantly hiding in the globe or moving from place to another spamming their massive range abilities and killing when they can, whereas with Rhino I was always focused and involved in every major conflict throughout the entire run. 

 

IMO Rhino is actually easily one of the most balanced and influential frames I can imagine having on a team for T4 content, it just kills me when people underestimate him or say he is outright bad.

 

Don't get me wrong I would love to have a skill component added into IS that allowed it to scale better but ATM it is in a healthy place for "balanced for" content.

Edited January 26, 2015 by geninrising

[SIDESTRE4M]

And? Wave 40 shouldn't be easy and no frame should be able to face tank comfortably there. Maybe except Trinity. Valkyr can anyways, but who would want that with melee only at wave 40.

 

It's really a point of perspective.

[geninrising]

And? Wave 40 shouldn't be easy and no frame should be able to face tank comfortably there. Maybe except Trinity. Valkyr can anyways, but who would want that with melee only at wave 40.

 

It's really a point of perspective.

I understand, absolutely. The point I was trying to make is that no one should expect the abilities alone to provide all the survival necessary after 20 waves and that skill becomes the determining factor of success. Currently Rhino fits that mold to a T.

 

Oops realized this comment wasn't for me a moment later.

 

A matter you may want to consider is ignoring Holey as he has illustrated a tendency to exaggerate and embellish a ton.

Edited January 26, 2015 by geninrising

[SIDESTRE4M]

To make it worse, he has the same avatar xD This is confusing. Forget it, I should go to bed...

Edited January 26, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[sanj66]

And? Wave 40 shouldn't be easy and no frame should be able to face tank comfortably there. Maybe except Trinity. Valkyr can anyways, but who would want that with melee only at wave 40.

 

It's really a point of perspective.

this is the point that none of you at all have answered though it was asked so many many times, why is it ok for non tank frames, i.e. a support frame or even a berserker stuck in melee to be ok to out tank a tank, or basically have god mode?