Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

At high levels, face tanking is entirely about damage reduction, when enemies deal over 2000 damage per shot.  Bombards do even more than that, able to one-shot a frost through his shield, so without a percentage-based damage reduction like Mirage has... trying to survive a high level bombard's rocket is essentially impossible.

 

Rhino looks amazing when you're fighting low level enemies on the first half of the star chart, but when you get to the high levels, iron skin quickly becomes useless as a damage reduction ability, and people start saying "Build him for roar instead, even though the codex describes him as a tank!"

 

Even a max power roar comes nowhere close to the damage boost provided by m-prime and sonar, so I'd really rather play Nova or Banshee than half-arse it with a Rhino roar build.

 

At least Frost still has one mission type built specifically for him.  Rhino doesn't even have that anymore.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Iraetus]

At high levels, face tanking is entirely about damage reduction, when enemies deal over 2000 damage per shot.

 

It isn't. I tell you right now. I have face tanked in T4S for 40 minutes with my Frost excluding Snow Globe. And I tell you Rhino would be better at Face Tanking including Iron Skin.

[bad4youLT]

Read  the codex entry on Rhino.  It describes him blocking bullets with his face.  That there says that he is meant as a facetank frame.

 

There isn't a Rhino build in the world that can bring him up to Mirage's level of damage reduction.  Even with max efficiency and max strength, you'd still be casting iron skin every few seconds in T4, whereas Eclipse you can cast once every 50 seconds for only 25 energy per cast and have a superior effect.

 

Frost and Rhino both need to be made more durable, on the same level of Mirage, but this topic is specifically about Rhino and Iron Skin.  Frost needs a complete rework, in my opinion, but Rhino can be corrected with one ability.

 Okay first mirage is a glass cannon rhino is not this is why mirage is doing more damage . Second rhino is not fragile , its just what you dot get it, strength gets you to late game but only utility lets you survive in end game. And third buffing iron skin would make rhino to OP what will scream "Nerf me !" why ? #1. rhino is easy to get for new players #2 invulnerability + CC + damage buff would make other players just play rhino all the time.

 

I really don't want to insult you but you act like a "power creep" loving kid. Were must be balance ! Whats why some frame are better at doing more damage when rhino or better at surviving thanks to utility and not brute force.

[bad4youLT]

At high levels, face tanking is entirely about damage reduction, when enemies deal over 2000 damage per shot.  Bombards do even more than that, able to one-shot a frost through his shield, so without a percentage-based damage reduction like Mirage has... trying to survive a high level bombard's rocket is essentially impossible.

Wrong ! you want to survive at high levels ? stop being a brute and start using utility.

[Iraetus]

Wrong ! you want to survive at high levels ? stop being a brute and start using utility.

Although I agree with you, there is a way to face tank at high levels.

[(PSN)dukezap1]

First off Iron skin is unique in that it has no time limit (Reason why people love it) 

 

Mirage may have a damage increase ability, but Rhino's Roar effects the whole team and doesn't need to be outside in the light, and isn't selfish like Mirage

 

Also how could you say Loki's invisibility is immortality, when you could have simply referenced Valkyr? 

[Holeypaladin]

 Okay first mirage is a glass cannon rhino is not this is why mirage is doing more damage . Second rhino is not fragile , its just what you dot get it, strength gets you to late game but only utility lets you survive in end game. And third buffing iron skin would make rhino to OP what will scream "Nerf me !" why ? #1. rhino is easy to get for new players #2 invulnerability + CC + damage buff would make other players just play rhino all the time.

 

I really don't want to insult you but you act like a "power creep" loving kid. Were must be balance ! Whats why some frame are better at doing more damage when rhino or better at surviving thanks to utility and not brute force.

Mirage is NOT a glass cannon.  Have you not been following what I've been saying?  She has the highest damage AND the best damage absorbing ability... she takes several bombard shots to the face at high level.  That's called being a tank, not being a glass cannon.

 

If mirage can take several bombard shots to the face, why not Rhino?  That's all I'm saying.  It's pure logic... if the "Glass cannon" can take bombard hits to the face, then the tank should as well.

 

Take another look at Eclipse before you call mirage a glass cannon.

 

There is no "creep" in asking for an ability that scales better to high levels.  That's just ordinary power scaling, and it's what all powers should have.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Iraetus]

If mirage can take several bombard shots to the face, why not Rhino?  That's all I'm saying.  It's pure logic... if the "Glass cannon" can take bombard hits to the face, then the tank should as well.

Then its not Rhino's problem anymore, its Mirage's.

 

 

There is no "creep" in asking for an ability that scales better to high levels.  That's just ordinary power scaling, and it's what all powers should have.

 

I agree with this statement. But power scaling for now, has been an issue along. Abilities with fixed numbers would be hard to scale.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Issence

[Holeypaladin]

No, it's a warframe parity issue.  If one tank can do it, all tanks should be able to do it.  That's just simple parity, and it IS balance.

[homiedudemanguy]

Loki's invisibility... immortality?

Post your video of surviving 30min pr above on solo in ODS with loki's invisibility and I'll believe that.

i dont know about immortal but he can definitely last longer than that in ODS

[homiedudemanguy]

First off Iron skin is unique in that it has no time limit (Reason why people love it) 

 

Mirage may have a damage increase ability, but Rhino's Roar effects the whole team and doesn't need to be outside in the light, and isn't selfish like Mirage

 

Also how could you say Loki's invisibility is immortality, when you could have simply referenced Valkyr? 

total eclipse does more than roar and helps out teammates in 2 different utilitys. reasons to why there should be a catch to it with the lighting because its too powerful 

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Holeypaladin stop wasting my time with your BS. Iron Skin is not a damage reduction/invulnerability, so stop comparing it to Hysteria/Eclipse and w/e, IT'S A SHIELD. Compare it to Mags augment shield - needs the augment itself, needs lots of shielded enemies to be useful, takes a % from dealt dmg by Shield Polarize. And as others said - beginners like him because of facetanking solar map and pros for his good movement, CC and damage buff that stays on affected allies. If you minmax for Iron Skin in T4 you're doing it wrong. Stop crying out for unneeded buffs and start using your OP Charge and overall movement!

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

I cant honestly see iron skin getting buffed, hes good where hes at right now and to be honest at end game u shouldn't even have to face tank, u should be in a proper team with proper cc skills where the enemy cant even shoot back, so no offence this topic is a waste of time.

[Aigloblam]

Holeypaladin stop wasting my time with your BS. Iron Skin is not a damage reduction/invulnerability, so stop comparing it to Hysteria/Eclipse and w/e, IT'S A SHIELD. Compare it to Mags augment shield - needs the augment itself, needs lots of shielded enemies to be useful, takes a % from dealt dmg by Shield Polarize. And as others said - beginners like him because of facetanking solar map and pros for his good movement, CC and damage buff that stays on affected allies. If you minmax for Iron Skin in T4 you're doing it wrong. Stop crying out for unneeded buffs and start using your OP Charge and overall movement!

1. According to him, and i quote "Rhino's speed is .9.  Rhino prime's speed is 1.  Arcane vanguard helmet is NOT available in the game anymore, so Rhino CAN'T be referred to as a "fast" frame when he's actually slow."....Which simply proves that he doesnt know how to Mod a Rhino for mobility. Apparently in his world, 100m Charges don't exist.

 

2. Stop ....just Staaahp. You couldn't bring yourself to think on that low of a level without several gallons of pure grain alcohol. You are simply beyond his entire argument lol

[Aigloblam]

I cant honestly see iron skin getting buffed, hes good where hes at right now and to be honest at end game u shouldn't even have to face tank, u should be in a proper team with proper cc skills where the enemy cant even shoot back, so no offence this topic is a waste of time.

<Sarcasm>

CC Skills? Proper Team? PFFFT! None of this nonsense! I should be able to kill a level 200 Ancient with the simple act of beating it viciously about the neck and face with my hyper-masculine face tank God! How dare you suggest i actually learn anything else? *Stalks away angrily*

 

</sarcasm>

 

[Holeypaladin]

Been soloing ODS with Mirage for the nova part lately.  Definitely better at than Rhino, more durable, more damage, better everything.  It's virtually impossible NOT to be invulnerable at all times on the ODS maps... you have to purposely neglect refreshing your eclipse and hang out in the few pockets of light on the map in order to come anywhere near dying.

 

With Mirage this powerful, there's no need for Rhino.  Ever.  Not unless Iron Skin is buffed and turned into an actual damage reduction ability rather than a shield that becomes worthless at high levels.

 

I wish I could say I was surprised by how much people hate Rhino... but I'm really not.  He's the most hated warframe in the game, and therefore nerfed to the point where he's not even worth using anymore, other frames do a much better job at what he used to be good at.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Been soloing ODS with Mirage for the nova part lately.  Definitely better at than Rhino, more durable, more damage, better everything.  It's virtually impossible NOT to be invulnerable at all times on the ODS maps... you have to purposely neglect refreshing your eclipse and hang out in the few pockets of light on the map in order to come anywhere near dying.

 

With Mirage this powerful, there's no need for Rhino.  Ever.  Not unless Iron Skin is buffed and turned into an actual damage reduction ability rather than a shield that becomes worthless at high levels.

 

I wish I could say I was surprised by how much people hate Rhino... but I'm really not.  He's the most hated warframe in the game, and therefore nerfed to the point where he's not even worth using anymore, other frames do a much better job at what he used to be good at.

I like rhino , hes my warframe of choose on nightmare and capture missions , where he really excels, but i just dont see the point of giving rhino invunreability iron skin back simply to stand there with a boltor prime shouting am a god, it achieves nothing but make life easier for ppl who refuse to learn the game.

[Aigloblam]

I like rhino , hes my warframe of choose on nightmare and capture missions , where he really excels, but i just dont see the point of giving rhino invunreability iron skin back simply to stand there with a boltor prime shouting am a god, it achieves nothing but make life easier for ppl who refuse to learn the game.

^

All of my This. All Of It.

[Holeypaladin]

I like rhino , hes my warframe of choose on nightmare and capture missions , where he really excels, but i just dont see the point of giving rhino invunreability iron skin back simply to stand there with a boltor prime shouting am a god, it achieves nothing but make life easier for ppl who refuse to learn the game.

If people can do that with Mirage, why not with Rhino too?  Heck, it's much better with Mirage than it would ever be if iron skin was restored.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

If people can do that with Mirage, why not with Rhino too?  Heck, it's much better with Mirage than it would ever be if iron skin was restored.

I dont use mirage so cant really comment , but if what u say is true maybe mirage needs a nerf. Anyway ppl will agree and disagree and then DE make the final decision , so thats not to say old iron skin wont return.

[(PSN)madjonny]

If people want iron skin to be better, I think it needs to last for a short amount of time... It's not right that even now people start a mission iron skin in the first second then take 0 damage for the whole mission...

[shoryukensama]

i take it that none of you has seen the 200 wave defense on pluto by 2 trinity and 1 frost then? if that wasnt face tanking at high levels then. call me stupid, this game is perfectly balance xD . 

[Holeypaladin]

Regardless... so long as any tank can facetank as well as Mirage, Valkyr, Trinity, Mesa, etc. can facetank, Rhino should be among those who can.

 

Because of all those frames, he's the only one described in the codex as having bullets bounce off of him as if they're nothing.

 

Unless someone can show me a way to have Rhino last longer using less energy, taking direct hits to the face from high level enemies, than alll of the above mentioned frames (he can't, it's mathematically impossible), then my point is sound.  Rhino sucks as a tank.  He's not even in the top four most durable frames, once powers are factored in.  Which means that iron skin needs a buff to be on par with the other frames.

 

DE has stated that they don't like to nerf frames, that they want to buff them all to the same level.  That's exactly what Rhino needs, a buff to the same tank level as Trinity, Mesa, Valkyr, and Mirage.

[UltimateSpinDash]

Just make his Iron Skin scale in a similar fashion to snow globe.

 

But the fact is, right now several Frames outperform him as a Tank. Mesa (bullets only, which is okay for a Gunslinger), Valkyr, Mirage (in the Dark), even Trinity.

Edited January 11, 2015 by UltimateSpinDash

[Holeypaladin]

So, I posted a topic debating how Rhino with his iron skin ability is inferior as a tank to four other warframes (Mesa, Mirage, Trinity, and Valkyr, in alphabetical order even).  This is due to the fact that iron skin provides artificial hit points in a "shield" that is easily destroyed in one or two hits by high level enemies, both on the later planets and in the void.  This means that the base iron skin power for the Rhino warframe does not allow him to tank very well at all compared to these four warframes (not including Loki, who has higher survivability due to being invisible and not targeted directly by enemy attacks.)

 

Essentially the topic contained a heated debate with some people saying that Rhino should be just as tanky as any other warframe, and others saying that he is obtained too easily and they fear people would overuse him if he became too tanky.

 

So I came up with a compromise to the solution in the form of Rhino Prime.  Rhino Prime's version of iron skin already looks different from Rhino's... being gold in color rather than silver.  Additionally, Rhino Prime is the warframe described specifically in the codex as being able to block bullets to his face without flinching, so he is described as the ultimate tank in his own codex entry.  Also, Rhino prime is very difficult to obtain, requiring intense grinding in the void just to get the blueprints.

 

So my proposal is to have Rhino keep his current version of iron skin.  It does very well in the first half of the star chart, but by the second half people will need to learn new strategies or use different frames.

 

For Rhino Prime, however, his gold-colored iron skin, which I shall refer to as Primed Iron Skin, should provide him just as much damage resistance as other tank frames, bringing him back up to the level of the four aforementioned tank frames.

 

The proposed primed iron skin would have the following affects:

 

Damage reduction of 75%, scaling to power strength, but capping at 95%.  This is the same level of damage reduction offered to the Mirage warframe in the shade and not superior in any way, it would simply be raising Rhino Prime to Mirage's level in this one category only (Mirage still has much higher weapon damage).

Duration of 15 seconds.  This is inferior to the 20 seocnds of Mirage's eclipse power, but hopefully the reduction will help to alleviate some of the complaints.

Immunity to knockdowns and procs while active, just like regular iron skin.

Movement speed reduction of 10%, possibly scaling to power strength as well.  This essentially makes Rhino Prime as slow as Rhino when Primed Iron Skin is activated.

Energy cost of 50.  This is DOUBLE that of Eclipse, but it's an extra cost I'm willing to pay when I use Rhino Prime to tank, and for the immunity to knockdowns.

Only useable by Rhino Prime.  Rhino retains the original iron skin ability.

 

Now to address the inevitable "power creep" or "Rhino is fine where he is" comments to come... I have heard DE mention before that their goal is not to nerf warframes, but rather to raise every warframe to the same power level.  That is what this primed iron skin ability is trying to do.. raise Rhino Prime to the power level of mirage, trinity, Mesa, and Valkyr.  I have not and probably will never cry out for nerfs, nor object when I see suggestions to raise some warframe's power level to match that of a similar warframe's role.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Holeypaladin