Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Rhaenxys]

From my point of view and personal experience in long T4 runs, Hysteria invincibility is a must for a melee focused frame with such low shields value.

 

Valkyr need that kind of invincibility when her health goes into low numbers when facing enemies at close range to avoid getting downed, armor gets very few benefits against high level enemies, without any kind of crowd control effects from your teammates or your own moves its too much of a risk to go into close combat.

 

However the Hysteria penalization (7.5% of received damage if you have a enemy around) should be changed to some kind of higher penalization, as a quick example, if you dont kill an enemy every 10 seconds you get a 7.5-10% of received damage or put a cap at how much damage can take during Hysteria.

 

There is also other frames who are not melee focused with high survivability tools, Trinity with link and max redirection is a great example or Mesa`s shatter shield.

 

Ironclad charge can boost Rhino`s armor to pretty decent values (600 easy), plus he has a decent shield/health values, with iron skin he is immune to knockbacks (Most Rhino dont even pay attention at their surrounding thanks to this) have a general damage boost unlike warcry who is melee specific, good CC with stomp.

 

Iron skin can be improved a little bit, in my opinion it doesnt need a huge change but comparing Rhino with Valkyr is like comparing apples with oranges, both are considered tanks but Rhino skills are focused on 50%melee/50% guns as opposed to Valkyr`s 90% melee focus.

[Muinocriz]

I just wanna chime in and say that I have been playing this game for about three months i think, and both my redirection and vitality mods are not maxed. I have very few defensive warframe mods maxed. I use rhino almost exclusively and the only time I even begin to have a hard time is at 60+ things, but I just chuck it up to not having certain mods maxed out to give me that edge I need. With that being said I also realize that at some point I will HAVE to group with other players to keep going up. I guess what I am trying to say here is that I think rhino is already balanced as is.

 

I know once I get ANY power strength mods that I will have an easier time because of how iron skin scales with them. I can only assume that the reason why people think he's weak is because they are not using cover and/or moving around. Yea, a single hit from a bombard takes my unmodified iron skin off in one shot, at the moment, but that will change when I find some strength mods.

 

At the end of the day I look at frames the way I look at my tools. I don't use pliers to nail something down. I use a hammer. And rhino is some sort of multi-tool that gets the job done more often then not.

[Ronyn]

From my point of view and personal experience in long T4 runs, Hysteria invincibility is a must for a melee focused frame with such low shields value.

 

Valkyr need that kind of invincibility when her health goes into low numbers when facing enemies at close range to avoid getting downed, armor gets very few benefits against high level enemies, without any kind of crowd control effects from your teammates or your own moves its too much of a risk to go into close combat.

 

However the Hysteria penalization (7.5% of received damage if you have a enemy around) should be changed to some kind of higher penalization, as a quick example, if you dont kill an enemy every 10 seconds you get a 7.5-10% of received damage or put a cap at how much damage can take during Hysteria.

 

There is also other frames who are not melee focused with high survivability tools, Trinity with link and max redirection is a great example or Mesa`s shatter shield.

 

Ironclad charge can boost Rhino`s armor to pretty decent values (600 easy), plus he has a decent shield/health values, with iron skin he is immune to knockbacks (Most Rhino dont even pay attention at their surrounding thanks to this) have a general damage boost unlike warcry who is melee specific, good CC with stomp.

 

Iron skin can be improved a little bit, in my opinion it doesnt need a huge change but comparing Rhino with Valkyr is like comparing apples with oranges, both are considered tanks but Rhino skills are focused on 50%melee/50% guns as opposed to Valkyr`s 90% melee focus.

I'm not going to make any comparisons between rhino and valky but let me just speak to valkyr...

 

I use a Valkyr build with vitality,steel fiber and rage. Then give her a wide hitting melee weapon with Lifestrike on it. 

What that build does on a frame with high armor is remarkable. You'll usually recover more health then you loose against the toughest opponents. I go full melee, full solo in T4 survival for decent length runs without ever using hysteria.

 

Now at some point it gets too hard but here is the thing....Warframe is not balanced around infinite content.

So what you might need for going up against level 70= enemies doesn't actually mean anything. 

In short Valkyr does not NEED invincibility to be super effective in melee.

 

Long periods of invincibility are not ok in my book for any class under any circumstances.

A few seconds..fine. 30 seconds without mods and over 60 with the right mods is just crazy.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ronyn

[Rhaenxys]

I'm not going to make any comparisons between rhino and valky but let me just speak to valkyr...

 

I use a Valkyr build with vitality,steel fiber and rage. Then give her a wide hitting melee weapon with Lifestrike on it. 

What that build does on a frame with high armor is remarkable. You'll usually recover more health then you loose against the toughest opponents. I go full melee, full solo in T4 survival for decent length runs without ever using hysteria.

 

Now at some point it gets too hard but here is the thing....Warframe is not balanced around infinite content.

So what you might need for going up against level 70= enemies doesn't actually mean anything. 

In short Valkyr does not NEED invincibility to be super effective in melee.

 

Long periods of invincibility are not ok in my book for any class under any circumstances.

A few seconds..fine. 30 seconds without mods and over 60 with the right mods is just crazy.

Yeah vitality, steel fiber and rage are pretty much mandatory for any decent Valkyr build, same goes for lifestrike so im using the same tools.

 

I can agree with you with the long duration invincibility to a certain extent, however i feel like she needs some short of panic button for certain circumstances, i want Hysteria to be both, a defensive and offensive tool so removing invincibility without some defensive mechanic in exchange is a no from me.

 

Maybe changing Hysteria invincibility to be like a second health bar would be decent, once that health pool gets empty you start to take damage and affected by her armor, in this way her armor will play a role while in Hysteria instead of being pretty redundant.

 

What i dont really get is, why is suddenly a problem when a Trinity with max redirection/max vitality and link up has more durability and can recover both, shields and health by just pressing a button with a chance of getting invincibility while she is not even a melee centered frame.

 

Dont get me wrong, i like to play with Trinity and Valkyr because im a defensive player but as it is right now Hysteria invincibility has little impact on the game to be a problem.

 

A lunge or a tackle like archwing would be great for offensive and since they fixed finisher attacks on Hysteria now her damage output is pretty decent.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[Holeypaladin]

 

Just because your favorite frame isn't top tier doesn't mean that others should be dragged to the same level.

That's the thing, there aren't supposed to be tiers when it comes to different frames.  They're all supposed to be top tier, every single one of them.  They're not like weapons where you're supposed to use lower tier weapons until you have the mastery rank for higher tier weapons.  All warframes are meant to be equally viable, from Excalibur and Mag to Mirage and Nova.

 

Hysteria invincibility is a must for a melee focused frame with such low shields value.

 

No one "needs" invincibility, period.  If invincibility is the only way to currently survive high level melee, then what is needed is a rebalance of the block mechanic to require less stamina to block, rather than absolute invincibility.  Instead of invincibility, perhaps Hysteria should remove the stamina cost for blocking entirely.

[MadHatHacker]

Valkyr herself may not be broken, but you have to admit a minute and a half of complete invulnerability with duration builds is absolutely bonkers. 

[geninrising]

 

 

That's the thing, there aren't supposed to be tiers when it comes to different frames.  They're all supposed to be top tier, every single one of them.  They're not like weapons where you're supposed to use lower tier weapons until you have the mastery rank for higher tier weapons.  All warframes are meant to be equally viable, from Excalibur and Mag to Mirage and Nova.

 

No one "needs" invincibility, period.  If invincibility is the only way to currently survive high level melee, then what is needed is a rebalance of the block mechanic to require less stamina to block, rather than absolute invincibility.  Instead of invincibility, perhaps Hysteria should remove the stamina cost for blocking entirely.

 

Holy crap Holey. I agree again. Is this the Apocalypse.

 

Valkyr needs to be made into what she was supposed to be initially. A Berzerker= Huge damage melee brawler that gets hurt and does not care as long as the job gets done.

 

Currently Valkyr has an entire move set dedicated to tank abilities. 2 is a damage reduction via armor and an enemy debuff. 3 is an AOE stun with minor damage based on shields expended. 4 is complete invulnerability which requires she enter melee range thus generating greater aggro than her other teammates. All these things point to her being a tank which is not conducive to her thematic.

Edited February 4, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

From my point of view and personal experience in long T4 runs, Hysteria invincibility is a must for a melee focused frame with such low shields value.

This is precisely the problem. Melee is not powerful enough to be useful in long defenses or survivals. Melee is perfectly fine through like level 40 enemies but after that it becomes an exercise in futility due to the discrepancy between guns and melee. Remove the discrepancy between guns and melee and suddenly this "need" you talk about for invulnerability fly's out the window.

 

Unfortunately this all comes down to players trying to do things that are unintended in places they are not meant for. Late in t4 survivals you should be trying to stay away from these massively overpowered enemies and for everyone except Valkyr you must do this without question. As it stands Valkyr is relying on a crutch that does not let you develop the applicable skills necessary to survive in such circumstance other than hitting Hysteria.

 

Remove hysteria and then you can begin the "rehab" of unlearning the bad habits it creates.

Edited February 4, 2015 by geninrising

[Rhaenxys]

Holy crap Holey. I agree again. Is this the Apocalypse.

 

Valkyr needs to be made into what she was supposed to be initially. A Berzerker= Huge damage melee brawler that gets hurt and does not care as long as the job gets done.

 

Currently Valkyr has an entire move set dedicated to tank abilities. 2 is a damage reduction via armor and an enemy debuff. 3 is an AOE stun with minor damage based on shields expended. 4 is complete invulnerability which requires she enter melee range thus generating greater aggro than her other teammates. All these things point to her being a tank which is not conducive to her thematic.

You are mistaken a moveset dedicated to stay in melee range and tank abilities, Warcry is also a melee speed buff who reflects the nature of "get a melee buff with a defensive buff to stay alive in close combat", Paralysis falls into the same category "damage reduction" via CC in a small area but a reward for getting into close combat via melee finishers.

 

Hysteria doesnt even hold aggro, going into melee range doesnt generate any noticeable aggro level, Valkyr will never be a tank, all of her survivability is only for herself, is durable but is not drawing attention from the enemies or mitigating damage from your teammates, is the same kind of "tanking" as mesa with shatter shield or trinity with link.

 

This is precisely the problem. Melee is not powerful enough to be useful in long defenses or survivals. Melee is perfectly fine through like level 40 enemies but after that it becomes an exercise in futility due to the discrepancy between guns and melee. Remove the discrepancy between guns and melee and suddenly this "need" you talk about for invulnerability fly's out the window.

 

Unfortunately this all comes down to players trying to do things that are unintended in places they are not meant for. Late in t4 survivals you should be trying to stay away from these massively overpowered enemies and for everyone except Valkyr you must do this without question. As it stands Valkyr is relying on a crutch that does not let you develop the applicable skills necessary to survive in such circumstance other than hitting Hysteria.

 

Remove hysteria and then you can begin the "rehab" of unlearning the bad habits it creates.

Thats precisely the problem, guns will always be safer compared to melee and Valkyr is the only melee focused frame, it will render most of her abilities useless without a scaling defensive mechanic, even if melee was dealing x2 of the actual damage, it always will be more dangerous to be on close combat.

 

Funny how you mention bad habits about Hysteria, not everyone use this as a crutch, now tell me how every Rhino dont even pay attention at their surroundings thanks to the CC immunity coming from iron skin and is not even an ult like Hysteria.

 

Hysteria invulnerability is not the problem, a melee frame without a panic button is in huge disadvantage, the only thing who needs a change is how easy is to avoid the 7.5% damage penalization when you have a enemy around and Hysteria ends.

 

That can easiliy fixed by taken 10% or any other value of all accumulated damage while in Hysteria when the ability ends no matter if the are enemies around or not.

 

-To OP- I was reading the first page and the changes you want to Rhino and now tell me that you dont have a bias with Rhino:

 

- 75% damage reduction scaling with power strength for 25 energy and 20 seconds with CC immunity applied to both shields and health. (really?...)

 

- Choosing Mirage over Rhino for survivability? a frame who needs to pretty much stand still in shadows to get a DR? next.

 

- The only point which i agree, Iron skin scaling with armor which is something you never mention, the ironclad charge augment and the armor buff who scales with power strength, it can give you like 500-600 armor pretty easily and it will make a great synergy between iron skin and ironclad charge.

 

- To add some info, Rhino haves more than 700 shields with max redirection and can stay at medium/long range with iron skin and roar, do you really see fair to remove completely Hysteria invulnerability without something in exchange from a frame with 150 shields at 30? 1260 armor cant compete with frames with 75% DR with 700 shield and health who can do their job at medium range.

 

Hysteria only needs its 7.5% penalization to be tweaked/changed and hey seems like you cant agree if Rhino is not the most durable frame... ask for iron skin buffs but be reasonable with your petitions.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[geninrising]

snip

Clearly sir you seem to be mistaken who you are talking to and I take large offense to that. I am not the op nor do I support any changes he has mentioned. I am a player that actually has a care for the balance of things with this particular frame. I do however recognize the way that Valkyr's entire kit is focused on damage mitigation. I also recognize the brokenly overpowered mechanic of pure invulnerability. I especially realize it lasts for a full minute on the right build and is exactly the same ability that was removed from Rhino because invulnerability was deemed by DE to be too strong. Regardless of her supposed focus that you quote she is the tankiest frame in Warframe to date and is in fact immortal if you play her to the fullest=broken. To clarify on the matter of aggro, when you engage in melee with a  target vs your other members being at range targets will turn to prioritize you versus your ranged counterparts.

 

Therefore she needs a change to make her more focused on dishing out damage versus simply ignoring it entirely as is currently. Once again I care not what Mesa, Mirage or Trinity has. My concerns here are Rhino and responding to various comments in that vein. The reason I spoke up on Valkyr is because there has been a consensus here from all except you that hysteria is a broken skill that needs fixing. In addition virtually all players I have spoken to in my times here in the forums feel the same. So pardon me if you got upset and decided to argue semantics when I clearly stated everything factually. 

 

Once again I will re-itterate this. Do not lump me in with the OP as I feel most often he has no idea of the ramifications of what he suggests.

Edited February 4, 2015 by geninrising

[Rhaenxys]

Clearly sir you seem to be mistaken who you are talking to and I take large offense to that. I am not the op nor do I support any changes he has mentioned. I am a player that actually has a care for the balance of things with this particular frame. I do however recognize the way that Valkyr's entire kit is focused on damage mitigation. I also recognize the brokenly overpowered mechanic of pure invulnerability. I especially realize it lasts for a full minute on the right build and is exactly the same ability that was removed from Rhino because invulnerability was deemed by DE to be too strong. Regardless of her supposed focus that you quote she is the tankiest frame in Warframe to date and is in fact immortal if you play her to the fullest=broken. To clarify on the matter of aggro, when you engage in melee with a  target vs your other members being at range targets will turn to prioritize you versus your ranged counterparts.

 

Therefore she needs a change to make her more focused on dishing out damage versus simply ignoring it entirely as is currently. Once again I care not what Mesa, Mirage or Trinity has. My concerns here are Rhino and responding to various comments in that vein. The reason I spoke up on Valkyr is because there has been a consensus here from all except you that hysteria is a broken skill that needs fixing. In addition virtually all players I have spoken to in my times here in the forums feel the same. So pardon me if you got upset and decided to argue semantics when I clearly stated everything factually. 

 

Once again I will re-itterate this. Do not lump me in with the OP as I feel most often he has no idea of the ramifications of what he suggests.

 First, apologize for my mistake, i already edit my post to separate your quote and the other one who is an answer to the OP of this thread.

 

Again is a matter of guns vs melee, Rhino is not forced to go into melee unlike Valkyr that kind of invulnerability was not necessary on Rhino since he can be used on medium/long range and he has better shield stats.

 

What we have here is "survivability tiers" the ones which are applied to shields and health and then higher armor values.

 

Even if you dont care, is still a point, Trinity link is applied to both stats, Mesa has a 95% DR from bullets and Rhino takes no damage until those effective points are at 0, those mechanics are all superior to 1260 armor with 150 shields.

 

Hysteria is the only thing who makes a melee focused frame be more "tanky" that frames who are not focused on close combat and dont mistaken me, i want Hysteria to be adjusted with more risk than the actual version, thats why i propose in other threads 2 options:

 

- Leave the invulnerability but a percentage of the received damage while in Hysteria will be applied to Valkyr when the ability ends, doesnt matter if there are enemies around or not, in this way it will act as a panic button and as a another layer of health.

 

2- The most popular option, change it to 95% damage reduction.

 

And no, i dont get upset if anyone says to remove invulnerability (if he does it in a respectful way) everyone has their own opinion, im just defending my own point of view and why she only needs tweaks instead of removing it 100% without giving her another defensive mechanic.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[Ronyn]

 What we have here is "survivability tiers" the ones which are applied to shields and health and then higher armor values.

 

Even if you dont care, is still a point, Trinity link is applied to both stats, Mesa has a 95% DR from bullets and Rhino takes no damage until those effective points are at 0, those mechanics are all superior to 1260 armor with 150 shields.

 

Hysteria is the only thing who makes a melee focused frame be more "tanky" that frames who are not focused on close combat 

That is not entirely accurate. 

 

Why? Short answer (Again) is that the "loop" changes how truly survivable a person can be in melee range.

Long answer OR What's the "loop"? Ok... 

The Rage mod takes incoming damage and converts it to energy. 

The Lifestrike mod allows a person to gain life ion melee hits.

The better the armor and health the better that loop works.

 

Now VALKYR with 1260 armor (its actually even more with warcry active) incoming damage is heavily reduced....

meaning a much better energy gain to life lost ratio...meaning a lot of energy to use for channeling..

meaning a lot of life gain per strike. (also note that channeling increasing melee damage output)

You actually WANT Valkyr to take damage because it is what allows her to do that loop.

In practice, as long as valkyr can remain in melee range, she can generally gain far more life than she can loose even against level 60 enemy groups. I regularly Solo T4 survival for 30 using valkyr without ever pressing the Hysteria button. I am usually able to channel almost constantly. In the end one does far less damage with hysteria active than they do without it.

 

Note: That loop ONLY works in melee range. So while you risk more damage up close you also gain more life up close. 

Where other frames may stay safer at longer ranges they often lack a reliable way to replenish the health they do loose.

 

Iron Skin quite literally negates that loop (to create it with Rhino use ironclad charge and don't use iron skin),

Shattersheild at melee range is not wise because it doesn't do anything against melee hits. 

 

When Valkyr released there was no Melee 2.0 (no channeling) so the loop did not yet exist.

Back then her high armor wasn't really going to save her in melee range. Things are different now. Very.

back then one could see why DE might have went with invulnerability...but now its just overkill.

Valkyr is quite a bit more able to sustain her life without hysteria than she gets credit for.

 

i want Hysteria to be adjusted with more risk than the actual version, thats why i propose in other threads 2 options:

 

- Leave the invulnerability but a percentage of the received damage while in Hysteria will be applied to Valkyr when the ability ends, doesnt matter if there are enemies around or not, in this way it will act as a panic button and as a another layer of health.

 

2- The most popular option, change it to 95% damage reduction.

 

And no, i dont get upset if anyone says to remove invulnerability (if he does it in a respectful way) everyone has their own opinion, im just defending my own point of view and why she only needs tweaks instead of removing it 100% without giving her another defensive mechanic.

 

Good to discuss alternatives.

On number 1-How would the percentage of damage taken interact with health gained?

On number 2-She could still build to have 60 seconds of 95 percent damage reduction.

 

Really, Hysteria is a really cool idea with the claws and the animations and all that...

but it will require a lot more re-working to its values and design if we are going to get it away from the nigh invincible category.

 

 

Yeah vitality, steel fiber and rage are pretty much mandatory for any decent Valkyr build, same goes for lifestrike so im using the same tools.

 

I can agree with you with the long duration invincibility to a certain extent, however i feel like she needs some short of panic button for certain circumstances, i want Hysteria to be both, a defensive and offensive tool so removing invincibility without some defensive mechanic in exchange is a no from me.

 

Maybe changing Hysteria invincibility to be like a second health bar would be decent, once that health pool gets empty you start to take damage and affected by her armor, in this way her armor will play a role while in Hysteria instead of being pretty redundant.

 

What i dont really get is, why is suddenly a problem when a Trinity with max redirection/max vitality and link up has more durability and can recover both, shields and health by just pressing a button with a chance of getting invincibility while she is not even a melee centered frame.

 

Dont get me wrong, i like to play with Trinity and Valkyr because im a defensive player but as it is right now Hysteria invincibility has little impact on the game to be a problem.

 

A lunge or a tackle like archwing would be great for offensive and since they fixed finisher attacks on Hysteria now her damage output is pretty decent.

I agree that some other measures for hysteria are worth exploring.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Ronyn

[Rhaenxys]

 

That is not entirely accurate. 

 

Why? Short answer (Again) is that the "loop" changes how truly survivable a person can be in melee range.

Long answer OR What's the "loop"? Ok... 

The Rage mod takes incoming damage and converts it to energy. 

The Lifestrike mod allows a person to gain life ion melee hits.

The better the armor and health the better that loop works.

 

Now VALKYR with 1260 armor (its actually even more with warcry active) incoming damage is heavily reduced....

meaning a much better energy gain to life lost ratio...meaning a lot of energy to use for channeling..

meaning a lot of life gain per strike. (also note that channeling increasing melee damage output)

You actually WANT Valkyr to take damage because it is what allows her to do that loop.

In practice, as long as valkyr can remain in melee range, she can generally gain far more life than she can loose even against level 60 enemy groups. I regularly Solo T4 survival for 30 using valkyr without ever pressing the Hysteria button. I am usually able to channel almost constantly. In the end one does far less damage with hysteria active than they do without it.

 

Note: That loop ONLY works in melee range. So while you risk more damage up close you also gain more life up close. 

Where other frames may stay safer at longer ranges they often lack a reliable way to replenish the health they do loose.

 

Iron Skin quite literally negates that loop (to create it with Rhino use ironclad charge and don't use iron skin),

Shattersheild at melee range is not wise because it doesn't do anything against melee hits. 

 

When Valkyr released there was no Melee 2.0 (no channeling) so the loop did not yet exist.

Back then her high armor wasn't really going to save her in melee range. Things are different now. Very.

back then one could see why DE might have went with invulnerability...but now its just overkill.

Valkyr is quite a bit more able to sustain her life without hysteria than she gets credit for.

 

 

Good to discuss alternatives.

On number 1-How would the percentage of damage taken interact with health gained?

On number 2-She could still build to have 60 seconds of 95 percent damage reduction.

 

Really, Hysteria is a really cool idea with the claws and the animations and all that...

but it will require a lot more re-working to its values and design if we are going to get it away from the nigh invincible category.

 

 

I agree that some other measures for hysteria are worth exploring.

 

I already aware of that loop, it pays for taking the risk for getting into melee range, using certain mods and making channeling attacks, so no discuss on this point, i simply agree with that.

 

But lets take Trinity as an example, 75% DR applied to shields and health with energy on demand, we can take efficiency mods into account if we take rage in the Valkyr example, bigger energy pool and the ability to replenish health and shields with the press of a button, she even haves complete invincibility when using quick thinking and is not that hard to achieve with link up, all of that for a frame who is not focused into melee combat and can use ranged weapons, she is just superior in every aspect.

 

I never have damage issues with Hysteria using power strength mods and even less since they fixed the finisher multiplier not being applied into Hysteria finishers, now i can pretty much kill a level 70 corrupted heavy unit with a single finisher in Hysteria.

 

So we have to understand that there is all of type of players, defensive and offensive, removing invincibility is something that will happen sooner or later but at least i want some defensive mechanic in exchange.

 

One thing i always notice is that Hysteria heals from 1 to 700 too fast, maybe we can use that as a start point, something like 50% DR (quick value as an example) but your health drains over time similar to toggle abilities drain energy.

 

There are always options, the only thing that im 100% against is to remove it without something defensive in exchange.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[Ronyn]

I already aware of that loop, it pays for taking the risk for getting into melee range, using certain mods and making channeling attacks, so no discuss on this point, i simply agree with that.

I only mean to accentuate the level of effectiveness that it brings. In her case it more than pays for getting close it makes being close an advantage.

 

But lets take Trinity as an example, 75% DR applied to shields and health with energy on demand, we can take efficiency mods into account if we take rage in the Valkyr example, bigger energy pool and the ability to replenish health and shields with the press of a button, she even haves complete invincibility when using quick thinking and is not that hard to achieve with link up, all of that for a frame who is not focused into melee combat and can use ranged weapons, she is just superior in every aspect.

Trinity would be the one frame out of the list I did not argue with.

Trinities mitigation potential is the top of the line and potentially OP.

 

I never have damage issues with Hysteria using power strength mods and even less since they fixed the finisher multiplier not being applied into Hysteria finishers, now i can pretty much kill a level 70 corrupted heavy unit with a single finisher in Hysteria.

Hysteria damage can certainly be solid. Though still beneath what can be dished out with certain melee weapons outside of hysteria.

The elemental damage and ability two hit multiple enemies per swing is what really makes certain weapons outshine her claws. 

 

 

So we have to understand that there is all of type of players, defensive and offensive, removing invincibility is something that will happen sooner or later but at least i want some defensive mechanic in exchange.

 

One thing i always notice is that Hysteria heals from 1 to 700 too fast, maybe we can use that as a start point, something like 50% DR (quick value as an example) but your health drains over time similar to toggle abilities drain energy.

 

There are always options, the only thing that im 100% against is to remove it without something defensive in exchange.

I understand what you're saying. I am all for keeping some sort of defensive buff with hysteria.

Really I just want to stress how broken I feel invulnerability is.

[Holeypaladin]

Valkyr is the only melee focused frame,

Incorrect.

 

Valkyr is nowhere near the first frame to be focused on melee.  There have been several before her designed with powers to greatly improve their melee abilities.

 

Volt, for example, is a melee frame.  It may not be his only purpose, but with his Speed power, he can close the gap to the enemy almost instantly, and speed also provides a bonus to melee attack speed.  This is his "potent alternative to gunplay".

 

Excalibur has a melee theme, being named after a legendary sword, but unfortunately his kit does not really show this except for the slash dash ability.  He needs a rework in my opinion

 

Ash and Loki are primarily melee frames.  Ash quite obviously has a melee focused build, due to his fourth power, and loki as well can nullify the ranged abilities of his opponents.  But their main melee power is in their invisibility, as it grants sneak attack damage modifiers to all melee attacks to double their damage at melee.

 

As for hysteria... even without the invulnerability, or without any sort of additional damage resistance whatsoever... the life drain aspect is enough to keep her alive indefinitely.  Are you aware of the difference between 75% DR and 95% DR?  75% is broken enough, but 95% is FIVE TIMES the effectiveness of 75%.  That's really no different from invulnerability.  If any frames are going to be given crazy high DR like 95%, Rhino should be one of them.  But since no one wants iron skin to provide 95% DR, there's no reason for anyone else to have it either.  The reason that shatter shield and eclipse DR shouldn't scale to power strength is instead of scaling linearly like all other powers, they scale up to infinity.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[geninrising]

Ash and Loki are primarily melee frames.  Ash quite obviously has a melee focused build, due to his fourth power, and loki as well can nullify the ranged abilities of his opponents.  But their main melee power is in their invisibility, as it grants sneak attack damage modifiers to all melee attacks to double their damage at melee.

Incorrect. It quadruples melee damage not just doubles it. Thus bringing to mind the idea that those two frames are the MELEE frames in Warframe.

 

75% is broken enough, but 95% is FIVE TIMES the effectiveness of 75%. 

This is an increase of 20% man. Please stop making statements that affirm for us that your claims are totally unfounded and sensationalist.

Edited February 5, 2015 by geninrising

[(PSN)theelix]

 

 

That's the thing, there aren't supposed to be tiers when it comes to different frames.  They're all supposed to be top tier, every single one of them.  They're not like weapons where you're supposed to use lower tier weapons until you have the mastery rank for higher tier weapons.  All warframes are meant to be equally viable, from Excalibur and Mag to Mirage and Nova.

 

No one "needs" invincibility, period.  If invincibility is the only way to currently survive high level melee, then what is needed is a rebalance of the block mechanic to require less stamina to block, rather than absolute invincibility.  Instead of invincibility, perhaps Hysteria should remove the stamina cost for blocking entirely.

 

Dunno what you're talking about.

You can trade invincibility for shields with shield flux...

Or you could just block indefinitely with Reflex Guard.

[geninrising]

Dunno what you're talking about.

You can trade invincibility for shields with shield flux...

Or you could just block indefinitely with Reflex Guard.

Quite frankly though who is going to waste all those resources trying to transmutate a shield flux? The transmutation system is the worst case of RNG that Warframe has atm and is an utter waste of both time and resources.

[Holeypaladin]

 

75% is broken enough, but 95% is FIVE TIMES the effectiveness of 75%. 

This is an increase of 20% man. Please stop making statements that affirm for us that your claims are totally unfounded and sensationalist.

Do the math yourself then.

 

Divide the damage taken by 1 minus the DR.  Say a bullet heals you that would normally deal 100 damage.  With a 75% DR, you take (100 - 75) damage, or 25 damage.  With a 95% DR, you take (100-95) damage, or 5 damage.

 

25 / 5 = 5, so 95% DR is 5 times as effective as 75%, since you take 1/5 as much damage when it is active.

 

That is pure math, how is that unfounded?  It's simple arithmetic that any third grader can do.

[Grand-Dozer]

I think the armor values across the tankier frames need to be tweaked and once that is done, remove invulnerability from Hysteria and replace it with rapid active health regeneration. The heavier tank-esque frames should have high armor values.

 

Valkyr as a berserker should be a high risk/reward warframe. Hysteria could grant a melee damage boost/attack speed boost/rapid health regeneration (Even while taking damage) /percentage based damage mitigation so that it can still soak a large amount of damage but too much incoming damage would outstrip the recovery potential.

 

The same could be done for Iron Skin making it duration based and rapidly recover shields (even while taking damage) /percentage based damage mitigation (Higher than Valkyr) /Immunity to CC and procs.

 

Shield/Health restores do not affect the player while either of these states are active.

 

The idea is that the armor values would be in line with the percentage based damage mitigation to not grant excessive tanking potential but allow for both warframes to function without taking away what makes them unique. Valkyr's hysteria would still do finisher damage and focus on melee. Rhino's Iron skin would allow Rhino to soak greater damage, but would not make it impossible to be defeated.

 

Essentially both frames take damage in these states but are better defended by using their strengths (Rhino's large shields gaining percentage based damage mitigation and recovering even when taking damage and Valkyr's health gaining percentage based mitigation and recovering even when taking damage)

Edited February 5, 2015 by Grand-Dozer

[(PSN)theelix]

Quite frankly though who is going to waste all those resources trying to transmutate a shield flux? The transmutation system is the worst case of RNG that Warframe has atm and is an utter waste of both time and resources.

Got shield flux after two transmutations. All you really need is the stuff you find on apollodorus.

Edited February 5, 2015 by (PS4)theelix

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/396031-rhino-is-not-a-tank-at-all-here-is-how-to-make-him-one/

Although the game advertises him as such, Rhino is not even close to being a tank. Iron Skin is Rhino's only survivability skill, and in high levels, the 1000 extra health it adds is paper thin. It can be increased with power strength mods, but it can only be increased to about 3400 extra health with all 3 strength mods, still not even close to being enough to classify Rhino as a tank.

 

I propose a rework to Iron Skin and Roar that would not only make Rhino more survivable, but also make him synergize more with other frames in a squad, be able to fill more of a classic tank role, and balance his power in lower levels.

 

Iron Skin:

-Iron Skin is now toggle-able

-Iron Skin no longer adds health

-Iron Skin has no initial energy cost for casting

-While Iron Skin is active, all damage taken drains from energy instead of health with 225/275/325/375% efficiency

-Iron Skin deactivates if you run out of energy

-Energy restores and the Energy Siphon aura do not give you energy while Iron Skin is active

-Iron Skin is now only affected by power efficiency and power max mods

 

This would make Iron Skin essentially function as a super Quick Thinking mod. While This would allow an unmodded, max rank Rhino to absorb 337.5 damage before running out of energy, which is far less than Iron Skin would normally absorb. Rhinos with no efficiency or power max mods would only be used in lower levels, where Iron Skin is currently ridiculously OP, so this would help to balance Rhino for lower levels. A Rhino with a maxed Primed Flow and 75% power efficiency (the power efficiency cap) would be able to absorb 6375 damage before running out of energy. This is still probably not enough to make him the old school tank he used to be, but he would be able to pick up energy orbs while Iron Skin is active to replenish Iron Skin's defense, and when paired with a Trinity, Energy Vampire would allow Rhino to continuously absorb damage without Iron Skin going down. This would not only allow Rhino to synergize more with the rest of his team and make players work together more, but also allow for the classic tank + healer combo, which could never really be done before in Warframe.

 

Roar:

-Roar now makes every enemy in its radius attack Rhino over all other targets

 

The classic role of a tank in a squad is to soak up all the damage and keep the fire off your your teammates. This Roar rework would allow Rhino to do just that. With the above Iron Skin rework and a Trinity providing energy to keep Iron Skin up, Rhino would be able to handle the incoming damage and stop enemies from attacking his teammates. With this Roar rework, Rhino would be far more of a team player than he is currently, focusing more on supporting his team rather than just killing everything on his own, as many Rhinos do now. This would also make Rhino excellent for defense missions, as enemies would prioritize attacking Rhino over attacking the cryopod.

[geninrising]

Do the math yourself then.

 

Divide the damage taken by 1 minus the DR.  Say a bullet heals you that would normally deal 100 damage.  With a 75% DR, you take (100 - 75) damage, or 25 damage.  With a 95% DR, you take (100-95) damage, or 5 damage.

 

25 / 5 = 5, so 95% DR is 5 times as effective as 75%, since you take 1/5 as much damage when it is active.

 

That is pure math, how is that unfounded?  It's simple arithmetic that any third grader can do.

Actually the way that would work is 95%-75% first because you said MORE effective, which should only include the percentage increase above the original value which would be 20%.  

 

20% increase does not equal five times more effective it equates to roughly 1.5 x as effective, roughly mind you, but no where near 5x. At 5x as effective you would suffer 0 damage under all instances and would potentially even heal from damage suffered if they were to implement such mechanics.

[geninrising]

I think the armor values across the tankier frames need to be tweaked and once that is done, remove invulnerability from Hysteria and replace it with rapid active health regeneration. The heavier tank-esque frames should have high armor values.

 

Valkyr as a berserker should be a high risk/reward warframe. Hysteria could grant a melee damage boost/attack speed boost/rapid health regeneration (Even while taking damage) /percentage based damage mitigation so that it can still soak a large amount of damage but too much incoming damage would outstrip the recovery potential.

 

The same could be done for Iron Skin making it duration based and rapidly recover shields (even while taking damage) /percentage based damage mitigation (Higher than Valkyr) /Immunity to CC and procs.

 

The idea is that the armor values would be in line with the percentage based damage mitigation to not grant excessive tanking potential but allow for both warframes to function without taking away what makes them unique. Valkyr's hysteria would still do finisher damage and focus on melee. Rhino's Iron skin would allow Rhino to soak greater damage, but would not make it impossible to be defeated.

 

Essentially both frames take damage in these states but are better defended by using their strengths (Rhino's large shields gaining percentage based damage mitigation and recovering even when taking damage and Valkyr's health gaining percentage based mitigation and recovering even when taking damage)

This is actually a sound idea. The only issue that I can see is for complete and total damage invulnerability through the use of shield restores +the DR granted by IS. Which is by and far the thing we are trying to avoid. Infinite tanking ability is excessive and broken within the concept we are trying to work on. However I will state that this appears to be mighty close to what we need. Perhaps ensure that players cannot receive restorative effects from these while IS is active?

[Grand-Dozer]

This is actually a sound idea. The only issue that I can see is for complete and total damage invulnerability through the use of shield restores +the DR granted by IS. Which is by and far the thing we are trying to avoid. Infinite tanking ability is excessive and broken within the concept we are trying to work on. However I will state that this appears to be mighty close to what we need. Perhaps ensure that players cannot receive restorative effects from these while IS is active?

Edited that in, I assumed that'd be the case but clarity is crucial, thanks for the suggestion.