Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[--Q--Guther]

Which is why the LoS needs to be fixed of course. I didn't say it fireblast was perfect as it was now.

But you did mention earlier you're ok with having fireblast's cast damage ripped out.

Well back to topic: we wont be expecting any changes to ember soon, with DE throwing out more revenue-generating content than they can afford to bugfix and balance.

Ember rests in ashes

On the backburner. (Heehee)

[Aimop95]

But you did mention earlier you're ok with having fireblast's cast damage ripped out.

Well back to topic: we wont be expecting any changes to ember soon, with DE throwing out more revenue-generating content than they can afford to bugfix and balance.

Ember rests in ashes

On the backburner. (Heehee)

DE most likely took that out because the fire wave was supposed to replace that mechanic it had, obviously it this is heavily dependent on them working on the LoS. If that doesn't get fixed then I agree that the fireblast should go back to what it originally was prior to this latest update. 

 

edit: it should be noted now that the firewave does a knock down instead of a knock back, and depending on your strength level, has a good chance of starting a fire proc while they're down.

 

pity fire as a damage type is fairly lack-luster. 

 

obviously combining this with accelerant gives you some pretty insane damage. 

 

It's a much better "oh S#&$" tool than it used to be, and I like that.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Aimop95

[DarkStarPrime]

is eMBER good for defense missions ?

[Aimop95]

another thing to note: when casting accelerant, casting fireblast instantly afterwards will not initiate the knockdown, most likely due to the accelerant stun animation. So I guess for max CC, cast accelerant, wait maybe 2 seconds, then fire blast the area.

[--Q--Guther]

is eMBER good for defense missions ?

consider it this way:

 

1)a frame is suitable for defense missions if it has skills that facilitate and enable you to hold and secure a position,.

 

ember has fireblast to create a persistent ring of fire, that burns mobs that walk into it.

 

2)then consider the fact that the only mobs that have to walk up to the cryopod to attack it are only the infested faction.

 

that means that its useful for only 1 out of 4 faction-specific defense missions.

 

3)then miraculously, AI's are smart enough to avoid walking into the fire ring, and most creeps will just wait around until the fire dies out. Yet these same creeps are oblivious enough to walk into a vacuum vortex that contains a their brethrens being flung around in a tangled mess, or a frosty globe that is so highly visible and opaque that people inside complained that they cannot see the outside.

 

this means that fireblast's ring doesnt really do any damage even when its up and burning.

 

4)then certain ingenious and hardworking ember users thought: if the creeps avoid firerings, why dont i place multiple fire rings around the objective to funnel creeps to where i want them to go?

 

well, if you place a ring right at the front of a spawn doorway, the spawns simply dont exit until the fire expires, slowing down defense missions.

 

5)well okay, if you cant convince creeps to walk into the fire ring, we can cast fire ring right over their heads to burn them there and then right?

 

not anymore. the fire wall effect knocks them back, right out of where the ring is planted, and you're back to square one.

 

is ember an optimal defense mission frame? i dunno lel.

[Aimop95]

consider it this way:

 

1)a frame is suitable for defense missions if it has skills that facilitate and enable you to hold and secure a position,.

 

ember has fireblast to create a persistent ring of fire, that burns mobs that walk into it.

 

2)then consider the fact that the only mobs that have to walk up to the cryopod to attack it are only the infested faction.

 

that means that its useful for only 1 out of 4 faction-specific defense missions.

 

3)then miraculously, AI's are smart enough to avoid walking into the fire ring, and most creeps will just wait around until the fire dies out. Yet these same creeps are oblivious enough to walk into a vacuum vortex that contains a their brethrens being flung around in a tangled mess, or a frosty globe that is so highly visible and opaque that people inside complained that they cannot see the outside.

 

this means that fireblast's ring doesnt really do any damage even when its up and burning.

 

4)then certain ingenious and hardworking ember users thought: if the creeps avoid firerings, why dont i place multiple fire rings around the objective to funnel creeps to where i want them to go?

 

well, if you place a ring right at the front of a spawn doorway, the spawns simply dont exit until the fire expires, slowing down defense missions.

 

5)well okay, if you cant convince creeps to walk into the fire ring, we can cast fire ring right over their heads to burn them there and then right?

 

not anymore. the fire wall effect knocks them back, right out of where the ring is planted, and you're back to square one.

 

is ember an optimal defense mission frame? i dunno lel.

But now when you're getting mobbed by billions of competent storm troopers, you can smash the ground and send them flying off into space! And when they get back up, they won't chase you because of the ring of fire!

 

Sounds like a good trade off to me.

[--Q--Guther]

But now when you're getting mobbed by billions of competent storm troopers, you can smash the ground and send them flying off into space! And when they get back up, they won't chase you because of the ring of fire!

 

Sounds like a good trade off to me.

 

they wont chase you with a coconut knife if they have guns to shoot you with

[Aimop95]

they wont chase you with a coconut knife if they have guns to shoot you with

Well I don't usually wait for them to get up, I'm either killing them or running away, the fire just helps in case I need to run away to get to some cover.

 

More useful for infested though, but this new mechanic makes it more viable for ranged enemies as well.

[RealPandemonium]

Ember's alright for defense due to the availability of clutch stuns from Accelerant and the ability to passively set enemies on fire with WoF in addition to fire procs from her other abilities.  The raw killing and AOE potential she has is also good for defense missions for obvious reasons, which is compounded when her allies bring fire damage of their own.

[(PSN)DontKnowMe]

My biggest problem with Ember's WoF is that it doesn't target enough enemies. Just about every other Warframe ability in this game targets all enemies in it's range, why is WoF limited to 3? And the way it prioritizes targets drives me nuts too. Sometimes there are so many enemies in the room that it will target the heavy gunner or Bombard or fusion MOA that is right in my face.

[RealPandemonium]

My biggest problem with Ember's WoF is that it doesn't target enough enemies. Just about every other Warframe ability in this game targets all enemies in it's range, why is WoF limited to 3? And the way it prioritizes targets drives me nuts too. Sometimes there are so many enemies in the room that it will target the heavy gunner or Bombard or fusion MOA that is right in my face.

That's 3-4 per second.  We should be happy that WoF isn't another idiot-button that hits everything in the room with impunity.  The new targeting mechanic supposedly fixes your other issue; it's worked serviceably for me so far.  The level of safety WoF gives now almost feels like cheating compared to how it was before.

[Soul.Fire]

My biggest problem with Ember's WoF is that it doesn't target enough enemies. Just about every other Warframe ability in this game targets all enemies in it's range, why is WoF limited to 3? And the way it prioritizes targets drives me nuts too. Sometimes there are so many enemies in the room that it will target the heavy gunner or Bombard or fusion MOA that is right in my face.

I've actually had it go for the little ones and ignore the big one that's actually killing me. Plus, the AoE doesn't reach far enough, not like it used to. Before the first of the last two nerfs I used to be able to get it to hit everything, hard, fast and indiscriminately, but now even with one or two of the corrupted mods that add to range I can't do that, it's limited to idiotically close and also 3 enemies at best. They also need to get rid of that damned time limit, I think it would still work somewhat if they'd take that away.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[geninrising]

I've actually had it go for the little ones and ignore the big one that's actually killing me. Plus, the AoE doesn't reach far enough, not like it used to. Before the first of the last two nerfs I used to be able to get it to hit everything, hard, fast and indiscriminately, but now even with one or two of the corrupted mods that add to range I can't do that, it's limited to idiotically close and also 3 enemies at best. They also need to get rid of that damned time limit, I think it would still work somewhat if they'd take that away.

There is only one corrupted mod that affects range.

[geninrising]

That's 3-4 per second.  We should be happy that WoF isn't another idiot-button that hits everything in the room with impunity.  The new targeting mechanic supposedly fixes your other issue; it's worked serviceably for me so far.  The level of safety WoF gives now almost feels like cheating compared to how it was before.

Wasn't ever a good ult beyond the first iteration. Still isn't what an ult should be. Unless they make it utterly annihilate the target no matter the level it will not be a worthwhile skill targeting single units over time. They either need to massively increase the target limit or remove it entirely for it to be equal to others in the game. I could also live with every other ult in the game gaining a target limit and being made into a channel.

 

Currently so long as WoF remains as is there will always be an imbalanced ultimate in game. The worst part is that Ember is touted as a fully offensive frame that eschews defense in order to be fully offensive and she has 3 skills that are CC and her ult does not even clear a 5 foot space around her SMH.

[RealPandemonium]

Wasn't ever a good ult beyond the first iteration. Still isn't what an ult should be. Unless they make it utterly annihilate the target no matter the level it will not be a worthwhile skill targeting single units over time. They either need to massively increase the target limit or remove it entirely for it to be equal to others in the game. I could also live with every other ult in the game gaining a target limit and being made into a channel.

 

Currently so long as WoF remains as is there will always be an imbalanced ultimate in game. The worst part is that Ember is touted as a fully offensive frame that eschews defense in order to be fully offensive and she has 3 skills that are CC and her ult does not even clear a 5 foot space around her SMH.

Nerf the other 4s.  Radial nukes are dumb and crutches for weak players.  As long as they exist DE can just say "oops, just use your 4!" whenever balance issues arise.   Ember is more like what warframes should be like.

Edited February 8, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[geninrising]

Nerf the other 4s.  Radial nukes are dumb and crutches for weak players.  As long as they exist DE can just say "oops, just use your 4!" whenever balance issues arise.   Ember is more like what warframes should be like.

I agree to an extent. I do feel like they should be toned down in various ways in order to bring the abilities in line with the rest of the game. The damage should be increased across the board and a target limit be implemented. That way the abilities take on a more focused  damage role rather than an aoe kill everything up to a certain point and then become utter crap button. The damage on Embers 4 feels good atm given how much we spam accelerant, but without accelerant it feels lacking just like tons of other ultimates.

[RealPandemonium]

I agree to an extent. I do feel like they should be toned down in various ways in order to bring the abilities in line with the rest of the game. The damage should be increased across the board and a target limit be implemented. That way the abilities take on a more focused  damage role rather than an aoe kill everything up to a certain point and then become utter crap button. The damage on Embers 4 feels good atm given how much we spam accelerant, but without accelerant it feels lacking just like tons of other ultimates.

It would be nice if Ember somehow had an alternate build path that didn't rely on Accelerant (though all her abilities function well for CC and situationally for damage even without Accelerant) such that she doesn't have to mod around maximizing it (max efficiency and strength and stretch with no narrow minded.)  The optimal build that she has now does work, though, and I find it to be quite fun and rewarding to play, personally.  

 

Stuff like WoF, Tentacle swarm/Tornado, Overload, etc are way more interesting and sensible as powers than radial nukes are.  We should have more 4s like those.

Edited February 9, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[MrNonApplicable]

Okay guys, It's been bothering me that you guys are so passionately discussing this since the ember changes and yet nothing else has changed.

So I messaged Scott about you guys all constantly putting input towards this topic and he replied asking for any good summaries of what has been said here.

So I'd like to collect people's general consensus in a easy to use way to pass along those feelings and ideas to Scott.

Now rather than everyone replying here under my post and potentially the reason of this post being lost to a vast number of responses, if anyone feels they can do this thread justice in summarizing main points over the, pages message me.

I'll take the time to condense that information and pass it along to Scott then hopefully we can get what you want.

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Edited February 9, 2015 by MrNonApplicable

[Aimop95]

Honestly, I think Ember is in a good place. Obviously she could be in a great place, but then she'd become the next nova/rhino/loki, and we have enough of that. I only wish that fireblast would have LoS that is enemy based rather than player based (so if I blast behind cover, all the enemies in front of said cover get hit unless they are in a cover that sensibly would block a wave of fire (railings don't count).

 

WoF I think should have it's enemy cap removed or increased to seal the deal but I can live with it for now.

[RealPandemonium]

 

Okay guys, It's been bothering me that you guys are so passionately discussing this since the ember changes and yet nothing else has changed.

So I messaged Scott about you guys all constantly putting input towards this topic and he replied asking for any good summaries of what has been said here.

So I'd like to collect people's general consensus in a easy to use way to pass along those feelings and ideas to Scott.

Now rather than everyone replying here under my post and potentially the reason of this post being lost to a vast number of responses, if anyone feels they can do this thread justice in summarizing main points over the, pages message me.

I'll take the time to condense that information and pass it along to Scott then hopefully we can get what you want.

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Make WoF a true toggle with no duration.  Make the duration stat make it more efficient, effectively increasing its operational duration.  Lower the base activation cost to 25 energy (6.25 with max efficiency, same as Peacemaker) and increase the cost per second as needed (not sure if this requires a code change) so that players have to think about whether to leave it on or not.

 

Restore the initial radial damage to Fire Blast, and make the flame wave retain its current damage and proc effect but begin outside of the fire ring so that it doesn't interfere with the way the ability worked before the flame wave was added.  I'm fine with LOS on the wave but I know some players don't like that exposed limbs/torsos don't count for LOS.

 

Thanks to reaching out to Scott for us, and thanks Scott for hearing us out.

[Racercowboy]

Make WoF a true toggle with no duration.  Make the duration stat make it more efficient, effectively increasing its operational duration.  Lower the base activation cost to 25 energy (6.25 with max efficiency, same as Peacemaker) and increase the cost per second as needed (not sure if this requires a code change) so that players have to think about whether to leave it on or not.

 

Restore the initial radial damage to Fire Blast, and make the flame wave retain its current damage and proc effect but begin outside of the fire ring so that it doesn't interfere with the way the ability worked before the flame wave was added.  I'm fine with LOS on the wave but I know some players don't like that exposed limbs/torsos don't count for LOS.

 

Thanks to reaching out to Scott for us, and thanks Scott for hearing us out.

 

Why not have the DoT hit inside the ring as well for Fireblast?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Racercowboy

[MrNonApplicable]

It's good your giving the feedback, but if too much of it is going to be here, the post asking for it might get lost under responses.

If you feel like you have something to contribute, please pass along that info to my inbox and I will organise it to send along to Scott.

[--Q--Guther]

I genuinely wonder if the thread is getting no more replies, because there is now an unspoken understanding amongs peeps, that DE has far too many other issues to address, and ember's current dismal state ranks too far from urgent to be looked into.

[Stigmergy]

Ember's abilities were stretched very thin even before, in terms of modding. You need power to do damage, you need duration for your powers to last for any worthy length of time. You need range to actually hit everything reliably.

 

Now WoF requires Efficiency as well as duration, or else it's even more impossible than before to optimize her. Don't even get me started on corrupted mods. Thing is, if they had just removed the duration entirely, a max efficiency build would be completely viable and allow for enough longevity to burn down rooms full of guys but with the added advantage of being able to stop when everything's said and done. Both the start-up cost and long animation time would have been more than enough to balance this out.

[Racercowboy]

I genuinely wonder if the thread is getting no more replies, because there is now an unspoken understanding amongs peeps, that DE has far too many other issues to address, and ember's current dismal state ranks too far from urgent to be looked into.

 

Probably not as many responses because of this:

 

 

 

Okay guys, It's been bothering me that you guys are so passionately discussing this since the ember changes and yet nothing else has changed.

So I messaged Scott about you guys all constantly putting input towards this topic and he replied asking for any good summaries of what has been said here.

So I'd like to collect people's general consensus in a easy to use way to pass along those feelings and ideas to Scott.

Now rather than everyone replying here under my post and potentially the reason of this post being lost to a vast number of responses, if anyone feels they can do this thread justice in summarizing main points over the, pages message me.

I'll take the time to condense that information and pass it along to Scott then hopefully we can get what you want.

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