Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[geninrising]

screaming about toggling aside. What should I build for in Ember then? Short duration or long one?

Short as it is more cost effective/damage. Activating WoF newly procs 5 hits instantaneously and therefore if you want optimum damage out of it you activate/deactivate immediately, lather rinse and repeat casting accelerant and FB inbetween as necessary.

[geninrising]

Long duration builds on Ember since Accelerant's implementation had been deviant because they focused on WoF when focusing on Fireball and especially Accelerant made much more sense as they are far more essential to Ember's success.  Now WoF was buffed for short duration builds but is still bad with long duration builds.   It needs to be good with long duration builds as well.  

 

Also why is that mod setup bad?

The setup is considered bad due to the efficiency of recasting vs maintaining. It's a p42w build vs your damage steroid as needed thing. You'll notice since he called it trash it is also a case of elitist thinking.

 

Sorry for the dual headers. For some reason the forums are acting up.

 

The point remains that there is an imbalance in the skill for no reason. Either remove duration entirely so that it is no longer a point of contention or remove the toggle. Even if the toggle is removed it still leaves WoF in a better place than it was before. Quite frankly many of us would have been satisfied with the 5 targets at initiation and target prioritization.

 

FB needs the ability to perform it's job without some arbitrary coding designed to make enemies avoid it. Seriously DE? That has to be arguably the most atrocious mechanic that was ever implemented for any skill.

Edited January 29, 2015 by geninrising

[LisRestall]

-snip-

You're keeping the enemies stunlocked? or the CC contribution of the Lokis were too much and you're under a delusion you were actually the reason why the enemies are being kept at bay? I know that Accelerant is pretty good if you got a heat focused weapon BUT it's not as good as you're overrating it. First, it's damage multiplier against most mobs on voids isn't something special, next, heat is just a small damage fraction of your damage output so it just keeps getting worse.

 

Are you sure about 1 hour? Even with 3 corrosive projection and under the Total Eclipse buff, it takes a Soma Prime about 1-2s to kill a heavy even if it does tons of 10k crits at 15 fire rate and has 90% chance of doing another hit with multi-shot mods. How can Ember replicate this with just Accelerant and a heat-built weapon? I think you're under the delusion you can.

 

Post a screenshot of you doing 1 hour T4S w/o any other damager/debuff frame, only with Loki and Nekros again.

[Ryjeon]

You're keeping the enemies stunlocked? or the CC contribution of the Lokis were too much and you're under a delusion you were actually the reason why the enemies are being kept at bay? I know that Accelerant is pretty good if you got a heat focused weapon BUT it's not as good as you're overrating it. First, it's damage multiplier against most mobs on voids isn't something special, next, heat is just a small damage fraction of your damage output so it just keeps getting worse.

 

Are you sure about 1 hour? Even with 3 corrosive projection and under the Total Eclipse buff, it takes a Soma Prime about 1-2s to kill a heavy even if it does tons of 10k crits at 15 fire rate and has 90% chance of doing another hit with multi-shot mods. How can Ember replicate this with just Accelerant and a heat-built weapon? I think you're under the delusion you can.

 

Post a screenshot of you doing 1 hour T4S w/o any other damager/debuff frame, only with Loki and Nekros again.

 

My crowd control filled in the gaps between disarms nicely. When I saw new enemy groups I always leapt towards them casting Accelerant and maintained regular casting to keep anything from sneaking up on me and the Nekros. I believe the majority of my damage is from the heat procs of World on Fire supported by corrosive/heat procs from my Serro. Prior to 40 minutes I was also using a lot of pure Heat Ignis. Later I was also able to cleanly kill heavies with shots from my Viral/Heat Vaykor Marelok. I also had a Viral/Heat Carrier that puts out a lot of damage but it died about 40 minutes in.

 

I'm surprised at my performance too considering we only had had 2 CPs and I was just using my 400% accelerant build. I'm thinking maybe the Nekros changed to CP when I wasn't checking. But it was that straightforward. At the end of the mission at 748 abilities cast. I think you underestimate the damage of stacking Heat DoTs.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ryjeon

[geninrising]

You're keeping the enemies stunlocked? or the CC contribution of the Lokis were too much and you're under a delusion you were actually the reason why the enemies are being kept at bay? I know that Accelerant is pretty good if you got a heat focused weapon BUT it's not as good as you're overrating it. First, it's damage multiplier against most mobs on voids isn't something special, next, heat is just a small damage fraction of your damage output so it just keeps getting worse.

 

Are you sure about 1 hour? Even with 3 corrosive projection and under the Total Eclipse buff, it takes a Soma Prime about 1-2s to kill a heavy even if it does tons of 10k crits at 15 fire rate and has 90% chance of doing another hit with multi-shot mods. How can Ember replicate this with just Accelerant and a heat-built weapon? I think you're under the delusion you can.

 

Post a screenshot of you doing 1 hour T4S w/o any other damager/debuff frame, only with Loki and Nekros again.

Actually it's quite possible due to the fact that Loki disarms causing enemies to have to close ranks with ember in order to deal with her, which is precisely what she want's them to try and do. FB not only knocks them back but creates a ring that melee enemies will not bypass for some inane reason under 90% of circumstances without some charge or leap mechanic ala chargers and other infested enemies. Also accelerant causes a 4 second stun allowing Ember to generate operational space between foes and herself. The other day I made an hr  as Ember with a Nekros and a Valkyr in t4.

 

Threat assessment and positioning are Embers game ATM. Who knows if or when this may change but for the moment just a Loki and an Ember are sufficient for long runs easily if I can do it without one. Add a Nekros and Valkyr into that on 4 cps and 2 hrs seems quite easy IF the team assesses threats properly and tag teams all nullifiers asap. 

[RealPandemonium]

Simple math here.

 

With your setup, but replacing BR with R6 NM (and R4 FE). - 14.1s duration

1 WoF cast -> 12.5 + 14.1 * 1.25 = 27.85 energy for 14.1s

 

With your original setup -> 6.8s

2 WoF cast -> 25 + 6.8 * 1.25 * 2 = 42 energy for 13.6s

 

Not to mention the animation cast which is still freaking long even post-buff and NT.

 

On long void runs, WoF become useless, true. So does other non-scaling damage ability. Even then, accelerant is still outshadowed by other damage boosting skill, such as Sonar or M.prime. They have much bigger range, with more utility beside accelerant's 1 second stagger. Plus, Accelerant only boosts HEAT damage, which isn't exactly the best type of damage in void. Making the entire discussion of "accelerant is better than WoF on long void runs" a moot point.

So you shave the energy cost per second by 30% but kill the range of your Accelerant and lower your damage considerably. In my two casts of WoF I will deal 258877 damage while your cast will deal 186012.  I'm trading some [WoF] efficiency for a considerable damage and safety increase. It's also worth noting that although my build is less efficient for WoF it's not less efficient for the other abilities, which are bolstered by the additional power strength and range (well, only Accelerant benefits from the extra 7m of range.)  

 

Accelerant is a stun not a stagger. It lasts around 4 seconds which is just short of the time it takes to fully revive a downed teammate.  

Not true, actually.  Accelerant is a stagger and the duration varies depending on the stagger animation that occurs.  It can be as short as one second or as long as 4 (maybe more?  There was a thread a while back about this.)  Nonetheless, Ember should be able to muster enough CC to revive allies mostly safely most of the time (especially with the flamewave on 3.)  It's not top-tier revive potential but it's better than what some other frames have.  

[LisRestall]

My crowd control filled in the gaps between disarms nicely. When I saw new enemy groups I always leapt towards them casting Accelerant and maintained regular casting to keep anything from sneaking up on me and the Nekros. I believe the majority of my damage is from the heat procs of World on Fire supported by corrosive/heat procs from my Serro. Prior to 40 minutes I was also using a lot of pure Heat Ignis. Later I was also able to cleanly kill heavies with shots from my Viral/Heat Vaykor Marelok. I also had a Viral/Heat Carrier that puts out a lot of damage but it died about 40 minutes in.

 

I'm surprised at my performance too considering we only had had 2 CPs and I was just using my 400% accelerant build. I'm thinking maybe the Nekros changed to CP when I wasn't checking. But it was that straightforward. At the end of the mission at 748 abilities cast. I think you underestimate the damage of stacking Heat DoTs.

You obviously haven't been into 50mins - 1hr. You're the one underestimating the enemy and overrating your damage output too much. Like I mentioned, even with Total Eclipse buff, hitting tons of 10k crits even with those huge armors, it still takes a Soma Prime 1-2s to bring down a heavy, heat stacking procs won't come near to that DPS. Accelerant not only cannot catch up to Total Eclipse (500%+ damage) because using BR is a bad choice for Ember but Accelerant is also only limited to boosting heat damage WHICH isn't even that good against all the mobs inside the Void, it has stacking CONS.

 

Actually it's quite possible due to the fact that Loki disarms causing enemies to have to close ranks with ember in order to deal with her, which is precisely what she want's them to try and do. FB not only knocks them back but creates a ring that melee enemies will not bypass for some inane reason under 90% of circumstances without some charge or leap mechanic ala chargers and other infested enemies. Also accelerant causes a 4 second stun allowing Ember to generate operational space between foes and herself. The other day I made an hr  as Ember with a Nekros and a Valkyr in t4.

 

Threat assessment and positioning are Embers game ATM. Who knows if or when this may change but for the moment just a Loki and an Ember are sufficient for long runs easily if I can do it without one. Add a Nekros and Valkyr into that on 4 cps and 2 hrs seems quite easy IF the team assesses threats properly and tag teams all nullifiers asap. 

A Loki alone can survive T4S for 1 hr with enough skill. Adding another frame would make reaching 1hr at T4S alot easier, just because you paired up with a Loki doesn't mean that Ember is the one pushing it to 1hr, it's Loki. I've tried pairing Loki with Banshee and we could've prolly pushed it easily to 2hrs if only we didn't need to extract due to some emergency IRL.

 

The CC from Ember is too redundant as there is already Loki making the game some sort of infested survival. Having the need of another CC on top of Loki's just to prevent yourself getting whacked means something is wrong with how you guys are playing.

 

Me myself have tested how far Ember's damage could go on void survivals alone and even at 35mins, her damage is falling-off already. Reaching 45mins and she already takes like 3-4s to kill a heavy. That is her biggest issue. If you really want Loki on your runs, adding another CC from Ember is redundant and is NOT necessary. Her half-baked debuff wouldn't last long and would fall-off really early.

 

In conclusion to what have been said, it's only still Accelerant which is good for Ember, nothing really changed and this is the issue, yet you guys are still being hipsters who are saying Ember is already good as she is, give me a break.

[geninrising]

In conclusion to what have been said, it's only still Accelerant which is good for Ember, nothing really changed and this is the issue, yet you guys are still being hipsters who are saying Ember is already good as she is, give me a break.

See now you are putting words in peoples mouths. I did not say she is good atm. I am in no way happy with her current state.

 

She currently has 2 different abilities that are counterproductive to their own use. Fire Blast has a ring of fire that enemies will not touch and her ult is counterproductive because if you have a duration build you make it so expensive you cannot afford to re-apply Accelerant or Fire Blast as needed.

 

In short she is not able to operate optimally because it screws you to use anything other than Accelerant and Fireball.

[Neogeo]

Ember is still extremely fragile. I'm running at max efficiency build with Transient Fortitude and Prime Continuity. The damage is no issue upto 30 min in T3S. After 30 min, WoF can be consider just a dot chipping away heavy enemy health while your gun and melee did the real killing. The problem is her survivability after 30 minute. She had to rely on her stun or knock back to stay alive. This is a problem when enemy heavy unit like Bombard hiding behind a nullifier. Since I can't cc them with her power, I can only take cover and try to take down the nullifier bubble and pray that I didn't get one hit by Bombard AoE. Overall, I think the buff is a step to the right direction. But they need to remove either one of the power mod dependency. I'd to mod my Ember for duration, efficiency, strength and range, which means I only left with one slot to mod for her defense.

[Enjutsu7]

Guys have you tried a build with max efficieny, high power and no duration? For me it allowed to spam spells, and in T3S i could kill enemys up to level 55, but the problem is that sometimes don't understand fire blast damage, it kinda feels like it's dependant on range and WoF the moment is cast it affects all enemys similary something like like rhino stomp.

[Ryjeon]

You obviously haven't been into 50mins - 1hr. You're the one underestimating the enemy and overrating your damage output too much. Like I mentioned, even with Total Eclipse buff, hitting tons of 10k crits even with those huge armors, it still takes a Soma Prime 1-2s to bring down a heavy, heat stacking procs won't come near to that DPS. Accelerant not only cannot catch up to Total Eclipse (500%+ damage) because using BR is a bad choice for Ember but Accelerant is also only limited to boosting heat damage WHICH isn't even that good against all the mobs inside the Void, it has stacking CONS.

 

 

I and someone else have both said we've done well with Ember in those times. What reason would we even have for making it up when we're giving our feedback for the frame? You act like 1-2 seconds to kill a heavy enemy is a long time. It takes somewhat longer with viral/heat marelok crits but they're down in a few headshots while they're simultaneously being WoF blasted. Heat doesn't have stacking cons. Look at the damage tables. It does base damage to everything except Proto shields which very rarely show up. And it does 25% bonus damage to all the humanoid flesh including the heavies once their armor is stripped. So that's a stacking PRO.

 

In that mission I used a partial Transient Fortitude to reach 400% Accelerant.  But i have a 600% Blind Rage build I use if we have a Trinity. It's generally pretty hard for me to find teams with multiple Corrosive Projections. So I don't expect to have that sort of performance every time. But once the armor is down Ember is pretty fun.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Ryjeon]

So you shave the energy cost per second by 30% but kill the range of your Accelerant and lower your damage considerably. In my two casts of WoF I will deal 258877 damage while your cast will deal 186012.  I'm trading some [WoF] efficiency for a considerable damage and safety increase. It's also worth noting that although my build is less efficient for WoF it's not less efficient for the other abilities, which are bolstered by the additional power strength and range (well, only Accelerant benefits from the extra 7m of range.)  

 

Not true, actually.  Accelerant is a stagger and the duration varies depending on the stagger animation that occurs.  It can be as short as one second or as long as 4 (maybe more?  There was a thread a while back about this.)  Nonetheless, Ember should be able to muster enough CC to revive allies mostly safely most of the time (especially with the flamewave on 3.)  It's not top-tier revive potential but it's better than what some other frames have.  

 

I think it misrepresents its crowd-control output when players call Accelerant a stagger. It lasts quite a bit longer than the staggers of Paralysis, Radial Disarm and Smoke Screen. I tried to get similar results out of max-range Paralysis and found it to be considerably less reliable. I don't see variable durations and certainly not one second. I always see entire rooms of enemies coming out of it simultaneously. That is if they've managed to survive without being set on fire. Granted I am almost always fighting Grineer and Corrupted so maybe Infested and Corpus treat it differently. Occasionally heavy enemies and similar will resist it if they are in the middle of a slam animation. And after it wears off enemies may take a moment more to regain their targets. Accelerant's overall cc duration is animation based but that makes it have even better synergy with slows from M Prime and similar effects.

 

It may be coded technically a stagger but its utility is a long-duration hard disable.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[AsleepAura]

Throwing out ideas here...
 

What if Ember gets a massive overhaul?

DE talked about maybe playing with the passive abilities of frames? Why not make Ember something similar to Krieg from Borderlands 2?

 

- for anyone who dont know, Krieg has a skill tree that lets him cover himself in fire. normally doing this would be a bad thing, especially where the DoT effect on higher levels are enough to kill you. But Krieg gains power up from being covered in fire and have many skills that would increase chances of an elemental DoT being proc on him.

 

Why not do something similar to Ember? Right now I am playing her abilities are promoting running into enemies and setting them on fire, this means that she will be taking a lot of damage both direct and Dot. Make Ember feeds on taking damage. When you get slashed proc or poisoned you would try to get away or fall back. What if Ember's passive are the ability to turn damage done to her into some kind of flame coating that protects her and buff her? (even regen health maybe)

 

Of course her abilities would have to be re-work too to fit this passive. But I think that this might change the way people look and play with Ember.

TL;DR What if ember feeds of being damaged? 
sorry if there were any mistakes, english is not my first language :) 

[Soul.Fire]

IMO they should remove the duration cap and make added duration reduce the energy cost per second, effectively lengthening the amount of time you can maintain it.  Cut the activation cost in half (Peacemaker is already like this, costing only 25 energy before efficiency to activate) and you have yourself a solid ability at both short and long durations.  

Either that or they should just make WOF be like Nyx's Absorb, that does essentially the same thing. Still at a fraction of the cost, but at least WOF doesn't have the horrible charge to activate+maintain that it did when they first changed it. I hadn't tested her till yesterday, when I finally did I felt like they'd returned a little bit of what was unfairly taken away. Not a lot, but a little bit. What they should do, if it's absolutely got to be a toggle ability, is make it like Absorb, have it run until you run out of energy, make it cost half what it currently does to cast, and leave the rest of the stuff alone. That way you can forget the duration mods entirely, build a little better defense on her, and if you build for maximum damage with Mods like Blind Rage your energy cost goes up accordingly. It would solve a lot of issues. And for the love of god, every skill shouldn't be dependant on Accelerant in order to do decent damage. I don't know what they'd put in place of it, because if nothing else depended on the thing it would likely not have much use, but still, I don't think any one skill should be necessary to make the others do what you want them to. In all honesty though I don't mind having it a toggle too much, because it is a really noisy skill if you're the one running an Ember, and I've wished before that I could turn it on and off on a whim. Just make it like Nyx, not the pathetically short duration+energy drain it's at right now, because as it is, that's kind of lame.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[LisRestall]

-snip-

I give up. You obviously can't do the math. Go on and support the idea that Ember is good as she is already.

 

There is no more hope for this thread. Hipsters win with their delusions.

[Ryjeon]

I give up. You obviously can't do the math. Go on and support the idea that Ember is good as she is already.

 

There is no more hope for this thread. Hipsters win with their delusions.

 

I'm just giving my opinion man. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. If the majority of the people continue to be dissatisfied with a frame than that's something that has to be looked at. But I also don't think it's appropriate for you to call me a liar.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[LisRestall]

I'm just giving my opinion man. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. If the majority of the people continue to be dissatisfied with a frame than that's something that has to be looked at. But I also don't think it's appropriate for you to call me a liar.

http://goo.gl/w9Q1e6

Heat Burst DPS 4255 * Accelerant 600% = 25530 Burst DPS

 

http://goo.gl/RpG5hO

67% of base output is Heat

23706 * .67 = 15883 Heat Burst DPS

15883 * 600% Accelerant = 95298 Burst DPS

95298 + 7822 unboosted dps = 103120 Burst DPS

 

http://goo.gl/zHP1Kk

28294 Burst DPS * 500% Eclipse = 141470 Burst DPS

 

Now, do you see what happens if I also count the damage multiplier it does for the mobs in Void? Or I don't need to say anymore?

Edited January 30, 2015 by LisRestall

[BlueAnchorite]

A simple buff to her World on Fire would be removing the duration on it, still allowing Ember to pick up energy orbs while channeling and possibly allow for blasts from the ability to stack on a target if not enough enemies are within range of World on Fire.

[Ryjeon]

http://goo.gl/w9Q1e6

Heat Burst DPS 4255 * Accelerant 600% = 25530 Burst DPS

 

http://goo.gl/RpG5hO

67% of base output is Heat

23706 * .67 = 15883 Heat Burst DPS

15883 * 600% Accelerant = 95298 Burst DPS

95298 + 7822 unboosted dps = 103120 Burst DPS

 

http://goo.gl/zHP1Kk

28294 Burst DPS * 500% Eclipse = 141470 Burst DPS

 

Now, do you see what happens if I also count the damage multiplier it does for the mobs in Void? Or I don't need to say anymore?

 

I've never said Ember does more damage than Mirage or Banshee. I've just said she does decent damage with her own tools. And I've also said she is very dependent on Corrosive Projection because of Heat damage. You could also take both Mirage and Ember and the Mirage with a Heat Soma would do 500000 burst DPS. I've never said that every frame needs to do as much damage as the best frames in the game. Not every frame needs be Mirage and Nova. They just need the tools to get the job done. I personally value diversity and think people should play what they find fun and effective.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[LisRestall]

I've never said Ember does more damage than Mirage or Banshee. I've just said she does decent damage with her own tools. And I've also said she is very dependent on Corrosive Projection because of Heat damage. You could also take both Mirage and Ember and the Mirage with a Heat Soma would do 500000 burst DPS. I've never said that every frame needs to do as much damage as the best frames in the game. Not every frame needs be Mirage and Nova. They just need the tools to get the job done. I personally value diversity and think people should play what they find fun and effective.

But you don't get the point of the thread. They don't want to be over relying on Accelerant only and be satisfied with the current Ember like you. Same goes for me, I don't want myself to be an Accelerant spambot like you.

 

But here you go, being hipster, defending Ember can do this and that. What did I say? No more hope for this thread cause there are also people like you and the others defending that Ember is good as she is now.

[Ryjeon]

But you don't get the point of the thread. They don't want to be over relying on Accelerant only and be satisfied with the current Ember like you. Same goes for me, I don't want myself to be an Accelerant spambot like you.

 

But here you go, being hipster, defending Ember can do this and that. What did I say? No more hope for this thread cause there are also people like you and the others defending that Ember is good as she is now.

 

How is that being hipster? I'm just saying I enjoy this playstyle. I like casting frequently. That's why I like Volt shock-spam too. I think they're interesting frames. I'm not saying you should have to play like me. I even joined this conversation supporting saying that higher duration builds should be incentivized by the frame even though I enjoy my low duration build. You'll only be happy when everyone agrees with your opinions. But the point of this thread is to get feedback from everyone even from people with different opinions.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[LisRestall]

How is that being hipster? I'm just saying I enjoy this playstyle. I like casting frequently. That's why I like Volt too. I think they're interesting frames. You'll only be happy when everyone agrees with your opinions. But the point of this thread to get feedback from everyone.

You don't see the whole picture. It's her capability as a caster frame compared to the others. The way her skills work around with her other skills is terrible. Other frames doesn't even need a debuff just to get at least decent output from their ults. There are so many issues with the current Ember but here you are not knowing your maths but still you go ahead and say how Ember is good right now and enjoyable.

 

But yea you're right. Heck, I actually given up already cause I feel that it's futile and they won't buff Ember anymore, it's just that there are still so many other people pushing her rework further so she can finally have her place as a DPS frame which was inspiring but oh well, I should just really stop arguing here and give up on Ember.

[Ryjeon]

You don't see the whole picture. It's her capability as a caster frame compared to the others. The way her skills work around with her other skills is terrible. Other frames doesn't even need a debuff just to get at least decent output from their ults. There are so many issues with the current Ember but here you are not knowing your maths but still you go ahead and say how Ember is good right now and enjoyable.

 

But yea you're right. Heck, I actually given up already cause I feel that it's futile and they won't buff Ember anymore, it's just that there are still so many other people pushing her rework further so she can finally have her place as a DPS frame which was inspiring but oh well, I should just really stop arguing here and give up on Ember.

 

If you want to make your point you should stop making this about me. Stop criticizing what I enjoy or my math or whatever. Not because it's offensive but because it clouds the points you're actually trying to make. Your saying "It's her capability as a caster frame compared to the others. The way her skills work around with her other skills is terrible." is entirely a good point. Expand upon that.

 

All I've been doing is describing Ember in terms of how I approach and derive satisfaction from playing the frame in light of her recent changes. Ember is my most played frame recently and has been for a while so obviously I am happy with her and my feedback reflects that. You are dissatisfied with her and I feel like you have your own good reasons to be. But I don't really know those reasons because I have a different experience and view of her. But I feel like you've spent more time attacking my views and experience to put me on the defensive rather than giving your own expectations of what you feel Ember should be.

 

And I think more people are in agreement with you. And so I would say your feedback is even more valuable than my own. So you should share it.  At least that's what I think about things at the moment. If I've made this harder for you to do or if I have been disrespectful I am sorry and will be more careful in the future regarding my responses to people's feedback I might not readily agree with.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[RealPandemonium]

I like how being an Accelerant spambot is bad and weak but being an MPrime or Miasma spambot is balanced and fair?

 

Maybe if they moved Accelerant to the 4 key these players would have an easier time due to their muscle memory?

[Soul.Fire]

I like how being an Accelerant spambot is bad and weak but being an MPrime or Miasma spambot is balanced and fair?

 

Maybe if they moved Accelerant to the 4 key these players would have an easier time due to their muscle memory?

You know what's funny about that statement though is that spamming any flashy skill on any frame is considered being bad and weak. I tend not to spam skills anyway, but there are some times when you need to spam them no matter what frame you have, just like there are times when you barely need to use one skill. I personally don't like Accelerant that much, it drives me nuts that the other skills are so dependant on it, but the fact that it's useful makes up for it in certain ways.